Doubt cast on Iraq torture photos

bbc ^ | Saturday, 1 May, 2004

[demlosers]

An investigation is under way into claims that British troops humiliated and assaulted an Iraqi prisoner before throwing him from a moving lorry. The claims were made in the Daily Mirror which carried photos allegedly taken during the man's ordeal.

Sources close to the regiment said to be involved have told the BBC they are not convinced the pictures are genuine.

Tony Blair says that if they are authentic it is "completely and totally unacceptable".

However the BBC's defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen's Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are extremely suspicious.

He says they believe the pictures may not have been taken in Iraq.

They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

The paper claims British soldiers
handed over the photos

They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.

They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq. Mr Blair said if there had been any abuse it was "exceptional", and should not detract from the good work being done by UK armed forces in Iraq.

However he stressed if the photos were genuine it was totally unacceptable.

"We went to Iraq to get rid of that sort of thing, not to do it," he added.

Investigation

Earlier Armed Forces Minister Adam Ingram agreed the pictures were "appalling" if they were genuine.

They "besmirch the good name of the armed forces," he said.

Military police are conducting an investigation into the photos which appear to show a soldier using violence and urinating on a captive.

Mr Ingram said this investigation had to be given time.

Pictures showing American troops humiliating Iraqi prisoners, with a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals, also generated outrage earlier this week.

US President George W Bush vowed that those responsible would be "taken care of".

There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour

The Queen's Lancashire Regiment

Military shaken by torture probe Arab media fury Mr Ingram said there was no "culture of abuse" in the British Army despite the fact that five separate inquiries into maltreatment are under way.

He admitted: "If these allegations are true, they are appalling, they are despicable and there can be no justification for them at all."

And he said the inquiry by the Royal Military Police's Special Investigations Branch would "not leave any stone unturned".

Those who are opposed to the coalition's occupation of Iraq would employ "full exploitation of these incidents", Mr Ingram said.

Unnamed captive

The Mirror says the pictures were handed over by British soldiers from The Queen's Lancashire Regiment who claimed a rogue element in the British Army was responsible for abusing prisoners and civilians.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the soldiers told the paper no charges were brought against the unnamed captive.

They allege that during his eight-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed.

After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed, unaware if he was dead.

The reason for making the photos public was, they said, to show why the US-UK coalition was encountering such fierce resistance in Iraq.

Army spokesman Roger Goodwin, on behalf of The Queen's Lancashire Regiment, said there was "clearly some form of link to the regiment".

"But the precise form of that link, including whether the soldiers involved in the alleged atrocities were members of the QLR, needs to be established.

He added: "There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour.

"The sooner they are exposed and ejected from the regiment, the better."

The regimental secretary, retired Lt Col John Downham, said: "We are furious that these people, whoever they turn out to be, have already besmirched our hard-earned good name and let down the many hundreds of QLR soldiers whose outstandingly successful tour in Basra was recognised by no fewer than 21 honours and awards."

In a press conference, Sir Mike Jackson, Chief of General Staff, said: "If proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform and they have besmirched the Army's good name and conduct."

Ahmed al-Sheik, editor-in-chief of Arab TV news channel, said the photographs would outrage Arabs around the world.

"These scenes are humiliating not only to the Iraqis, but to every Arab citizen around the world."

[AntiGuv]

Good, I hope this is as true as it sounds (that they were fakes). If so, they should find the perps and give them whatever punishment the soldiers would've received for committing the fraudulent atrocities..

[MizSterious]

Here's another wrinkle...

[FairOpinion]

Hmmm.

Interesting.

I'll hope they'll analyze the US photos carefully as well.

Wouldn't it be something, if it turned out they were all fake?

[EGPWS]

An investigation is under way into claims that British troops humiliated and assaulted an Iraqi prisoner before throwing him from a moving lorry. The claims were made in the Daily Mirror which carried photos allegedly taken during the man's ordeal.

All is fair in love and war.

Or have we forgotten that we are at war?

[reagan_fanatic]

Interesting that the photos of both the British and American 'abuses' came out at about the same time.

[Spunky]

It used to be a picture never told a lie. But with the equipment that is available now, you can't believe your eyes.

I think there are those who hate us so much for going into Iraq they will do anything to discredit us.

[MizSterious]

I don't know if this means anything or not, but as others have mentioned, both sets of pictures seem to have come out at the same time. As you say, it would sure be interesting if all the pics were faked.

[TomGuy]

Someone in an earlier thread on FR raised the question about the authenticity and locations. Questions were raised about the uniforms (green rather than sand color) and some insignias that seemed inappropriate or out of place. That thread linked to about a dozen pics (that may also be on the CBS news website).

[kms61]

Except that the Americans under investigation haven't denied the incidents taking place. Instead they've offered the defense that they weren't properly trained, etc. So at least in the American incident, the pictures seem to be authentic.

[MegaSilver]

Whoever is responsible for this--be they digital graphics artists or soldiers--should get the death penalty.

I am not just hyperbolizing, either. If it was the latter, they were a) being sick, and b) giving ammunition to our enemies in a time of war. If it was the former, they were aiding and abetting our enemies.

[Bob]

All is fair in love and war.

Or have we forgotten that we are at war?

No, even when at war, abuse of prisoners is not acceptable. The people accused of committing the abuse are soldiers, not barbarians.

[adam_az]

They allege that during his eight-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed.

After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed, unaware if he was dead.

The reason for making the photos public was, they said, to show why the US-UK coalition was encountering such fierce resistance in Iraq.

Funny to lump these things together, too - there are no allegations that the US troops beat the prisoners, just 'humiliated' them by making them stand naked, etc. Bizarre.

[arkady_renko]

All is fair in love and war.

I don't think so. How sad.

A_R

[prairiebreeze]

ping

[livius]

Sadly, I think the US photos were authentic. The only one I have a question about was a photo of a hooded man standing on a box, with electrodes attached to various body parts. Another Freeper pointed out that this was almost identical to an earlier photo of an Iraqi demonstrating to American soldiers how dissenters used to be tortured by Saddam, which came out shortly after we took Baghdad.

[FairOpinion]

I was thinking that those pictures, if genuine, were done for a reason.

I read somewhere -- in some spy novel -- but it makes sense, that when you interrogate people, you have to break their humanity. As long as you are pulling fingernails, but let them sit there and think of themselves as heros putting up with pain and torture, they can withstand a lot and not break.

You have to take away their human dignity to break them.

Now here is my thought about those pictures. Suppose they did whatever they did to some of the prisoners -- remember these were a bunch of terrorists -- and then took pictures, which they showed to other terrorists they interrogated, as a threat, and they talked, rather than be subjected to such indignities. So the purpose of the pictures were as props to intimidate other terrorists being interrogated.

The fact that prisoners were photographed with hoods, would indicate such possibility. And the laughing Americans in the picture would also serve the purpose of intimidating the terrorists, who may be willing to die for their cause, but not to suffer those indignities. You have to threaten them, with what they are afraid of.

Some articles mentioned that they had a lot of success with this interrogation technique. Who knows how many attacks were foiled by getting the terrorists to talk, by whatever means work.

[lelio]

Instead they've offered the defense that they weren't properly trained, etc

The latest wrinkle I've heard in this story is that some of the deeds are being done by non-military US civilian contractors who cannot be tried in Iraq per language included in their constitution of sorts by Paul Bremer.

How is this "winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people" that US civilians can go over there, get their jollies by humiliating Iraqis, and then leave without the chance of being punished in Iraq?

[TheSpottedOwl]

Well our own FR god of photoshop got a little controversy going a while back. No offense to his excellent work, but it was so good, I'll always be suspicious of certain photographs again.

[atomic conspiracy]

Earlier today, this analysiswas posted at Little Green Footballs:

Note that the Mirror, a notorious fifth-column tabloid, claims to have to conceal the source of these pictures even though a military invesigation is underway.

The pictures are out of sequence, so we should designate as numbers 1-4 from the top of the article.
In picture #1, at the top of the article, the victim is wearing a button-down shirt with epaulets.
In the others, he is wearing a t-shirt with a Baathist Iraqi flag.
There is no bloodstain on the hood in picture #2 and only a small one in #3. There is a large one in picture #1, indicating that it was taken after 2 and 3.
Did he change shirts during the beating?
The bag over his head is dark in picture #4, light in the others.
Could this be saturated with blood? Only if he changed back into the t-shirt after picture #1, (which, again, is actually the third in the sequence).

It occurred to me that the stain might be urine (though oddly located), but this would only mean that the victim changed shirts between pictures 2 and 1, giving a different, but at least as improbable, a sequence. It would also not explain the different hood in picture #4.

[TheDon]

Quite.

[OneTimeLurker]

I think some of the people in the US pictures have acknowledged their behavior.

[supercat]

Now here is my thought about those pictures. Suppose they did whatever they did to some of the prisoners -- remember these were a bunch of terrorists -- and then took pictures, which they showed to other terrorists they interrogated, as a threat, and they talked, rather than be subjected to such indignities. So the purpose of the pictures were as props to intimidate other terrorists being interrogated.

For that matter, what if the people in the photos aren't actually prisoners, but other people 'acting' as pictures for purposes of taking the photos, possibly with the intention of using the photos to intimidate other prisoners?

[My Favorite Headache]

Like these old pics?

[garjog]

What if Soros bribed these guys to fake the photos? Wouldn't it be worth a few hundred thousands dollars to hurt our war effort by our deep pocketed enemies?

[varon]

I'll hope they'll analyze the US photos carefully as well.

Wouldn't it be something, if it turned out they were all fake?

Yeah, what if those photos were from some college fraternity initiation party???

[Misterioso]

But with the equipment that is available now, you can't believe your eyes.

Of course, you can still believe your eyes. It's the photographs you can't (necessarily) believe. Photographs have always been alterable and will be offered as proof of fact for many more years. But the techniques used to verify them will run apace. What will not change, however, is the gullibility of men.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1127836/posts

[FairOpinion]

"For that matter, what if the people in the photos aren't actually prisoners, but other people 'acting' as pictures for purposes of taking the photos, possibly with the intention of using the photos to intimidate other prisoners?"

===

That's certainly a possibility as well. People -- including people here -- are just too darn quick and glad to jump on the "horrible American soldiers must be punished bandwagon", pronouncing them guilty, until proven innocent.

[Zeroisanumber]

Wouldn't it be something, if it turned out they were all fake?

It would be a great relief. I think that they're genuine, but it would be a great relief if they were found to be fake.

[OneTimeLurker]

Yeah that's probably what happend ;)

[norton]

"Wouldn't it be something, if it turned out they were all fake?"

Yes,
Interesting but not particularly meaningful.
Fake or not, those who WANT to believe, WILL believe.

Propaganda can be proven false, clearly (as in much of the current photos) bogus; and still cause the desired result.

I lost the thread to all the gory detail photos, but in a brief review saw none that could be considered irrefutable.

[Oztrich Boy]

there are no allegations that the US troops beat the prisoners, just 'humiliated' them by making them stand naked, etc. Bizarre.

Yeah. and the prisoners could have avoided the humiliation by politely declining to stand naked, etc.

[oolatec]

Let's say that along with the Brit forgeries, the American ones are fake too (along with the video... but unfortunately, I doubt it)... it doesn't matter. The damage has already been done.

[Spunky]

"Of course, you can still believe your eyes."

How do you know I can? Sometimes mine do funny things. I also sometimes say what I mean the wrong way. :-)

But you are correct.

[Dallas59]

These are graphic and some are just down right fake (from an old porno film). The Arab world would deem these real. They don't have the right to view porno, not because of thier "high" moral standards, but because they would be imprisoned for having such photos or videos.

"http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow"

[ladyinred]

There doesn't happen to be a mirror with a reflection of a wide body in a blackpantsuit in the pictures does there? :-)

[Peach]

We just got home a little while ago and I was glad to see this thread; I'd have missed it - thanks for the ping.

May the UK pictures be bogus. It certainly doesn't sound like ours were. Darn it all.

[Wolfstar]

Hmmm...so the British "torture" photos may not be genuine. Would not surprise me in the least. Ever since those phony Japanese hostages turned out to be radical anti-war Leftists, my "cynicism meter" has been set on high. On Friday, I posted the following comments in a response to My2Cents on another thread about the U.S. torture photos:

Not being naive, I have no doubt whatsoever that, given the right set of circumstances, any human being is capable of brutality against other human beings. On the other hand, again not being naive, I fully understand that out of 130,000 or so members of the Armed Forces serving in Iraq, some percentage of them are probably Democrats, and are against the war, and are pro-Kerry.

Something just doesn't feel right about the why and wherefor of those photos. The incidents supposedly took place last November and December. Why have the photos been leaked now? Why to CBS? For that matter, why were they taken at all? How do we know for certain that the people being humiliated were really Iraqis? Their heads are all hooded. Sigh. Maybe it's just my natural cynicism and skepticism speaking.

As I said, the above was posted Friday, and comes from my strong belief that the Left will almost literally stop at nothing to defeat the U.S. in Iraq and President Bush in November. The forces arrayed against us are not just the Islamofreaks.

[highlander_UW]

Now here is my thought about those pictures. Suppose they did whatever they did to some of the prisoners -- remember these were a bunch of terrorists -- and then took pictures, which they showed to other terrorists they interrogated, as a threat, and they talked, rather than be subjected to such indignities. So the purpose of the pictures were as props to intimidate other terrorists being interrogated.

But they could have just used some photos from a SF gay bath house session and said they were Iraqis if they just wanted to scare the next batch.

[dougherty]

I thought the photos were BS when I saw them yesterday. I hope they find who did this and give them some prison time.

[spetznaz]

....photo of an Iraqi demonstrating to American soldiers how dissenters used to be tortured by Saddam, which came out shortly after we took Baghdad.

Was the guy demonstrating the method to the soldiers naked? The 'electrode guy' in this case was nude.

[marty60]

It sounds like the close ties to the Russians may have paid off for the Iraqi's. They have learned the fine art of disinformation. Fake photos and all.

[Beckwith]

Personally, I would rather be pissed on than blown up by an improvised explosive device or suicide bomber.

Our guys piss on somebody and it's an atrocity. Their guys blow up the U. N. building or kidnap and kill civilians and nothing is said.

Fair and balanced reporting? I don't think so.

[livius]

In the picture I saw (granted, there may be more than one circulating), he was wearing something that looked like a cloak or a blanket.

[MarkL]

I've got a question here...

Why is it that the the leftists, the press, and the rest of the world, can get away with condemning the British and US military for the alleged abuses of POWs, painting with such a broad stroke everyone involved, especially considering that when it was revealed the military goes after those wrong-doers with a vengence.

But when someone uses the phrase "Islamic Terrorist," the leftists, the press, and the rest of the world gets their panties in a bunch. They claim that "the terrorists are not muslims," although moslem clerics are constantly calling for jihad and suicide bombers from countries that do NOT allow the concept of "free speech," i.e. if you say something that the government doesn't agree with, you're toast! The clerics are moslem, the governments are moslem, and interestingly enough, the terrorists themselves are moslem.

Maybe it's me, but I'm starting to see a connection here.

Mark

[FairOpinion]

"How do we know for certain that the people being humiliated were really Iraqis? Their heads are all hooded. Sigh. Maybe it's just my natural cynicism and skepticism speaking."

===

Exactly. Add to this the discovery that reporters for respected newspapers, like the New York Times were found making things up out of whole cloth, instead of reporting, righting fiction and claiming it as fact.

[MizSterious]

People are assuring me that the U.S. photos are genuine, and to be sure, there don't seem to be any denials about them. But like you, I'm perhaps more suspicious than most when it comes to these things. The U.K. photos and the U.S. photos came out at the same time, and then there is the issue about which media desks they landed on.

I always like to ask "why" when a series of "coincidences" appear--sometimes there's an innocent explanation for it, sometimes not. If the U.S. photos are, in fact, genuine, then I would like to know who released them to the media. Wonder if one of them gave a radio address yesterday...

[MizSterious]

You bring up a very important point. Even if all of them--US and UK--were proven fake, the fact remains that they have been on the television news and in some cases in magazines and newspapers--if there is a retraction at all (wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one), it will be a tiny thing buried in one of the back pages or at the end of a newscast. And Al Jazeera will continue running them as though they were real.

So real, fake, it probably won't matter now. The "genie" is out of the bottle. I've already heard one liberal (local) decrying "George Bush's brutal, out of control military." No doubt Brits are saying the same about Blair. How long before Hillary and Kerry start saying the same thing?

[norton]

"How long before Hillary and Kerry start saying the same thing?"

We've just not heard it yet.