Skip to comments.PHONY IRAQI ABUSE OUTRAGE SYNDROME
Posted on 05/05/2004 8:05:46 AM PDT by slim mackerel
WHEN GOOD NEWS COMES OUT BAD
Happy Cinco de Drinko everybody!
There's is so much good news in the paper lately. Only problem is it's presented as bad.
The latest trick of the left, which proved incredibly effective last decade in helping Rodney King become a WMD, is to work up a lot of phony outrage at Iraqi prisoners being tortured and abused by our military.
"Iraqi Prisoner Urinated On!" And the problem is..? It's the least we can do, really. OK, you're in the Twin Towers on 9/11/01. What would you choose? Someone flying a packed airliner into your head or getting peed upon in the lobby? Thought so. To the anti-US news reporters the only American allowed to pee on others is R Kelly. The only outrageous thing to me is that the soldiers did not shout, "That's for Tillman and Pearl" while they were emptying their bladders on the kindly shepherds.
Yes, I know. Even Rumsfeld and Bush are outraged. What do you expect them to say? "Well, the White House believes that pissing on a guy has it's merits?" Don't they already have their hands full trying to explain to the mentally disabled of the print media the basic concepts of right vs. wrong and self-defense?
It's sad that the news media treats Michael Jackson better than our military. And it's sad that some people are eager to prosecute any of our military as war criminals before Saddam Hussein answers to his evil.
Abuse is necessary for the survival of a free state. These "prisoners" have another name. Enemy combatants. We are fighting dirty people who see Geneva Conventional warfare as old school. "Yo my sand nigga. That's a bunch of Babylonia. Knowwhatitisthatiamsayingtoyoumyfriend?"
As I said last year on the air to much hootery and derision, the eggshells upon which President Bush must walk to fight this war will continue to cause needless death. Lob a nuke and see what happens. It worked for the Japs. They sure as hell calmed down and concentrated on electronics and sushi.
Everytime we conquer a land everyone wins.When we fought Germany did anyone think it would yield some of the kinkiest porn America has ever seen? Tons of Jews driving Mercedes?
We whipped Russia's ass, everybody loves vodka now...more so than Raymond. It's even flavored for the 'tweens.
Britain and Canada...America's twin sons. We steal all their comedians and TV shows and make them better..Tom Green being the exception.
The South is in much better shape than the North these days. NASCAR is huge everywhere. We even succeed when we kick our own ass! That's how great this country is.
So before we weaken ourselves even further in the eyes of the Arab world by holding congressional hearings on the wedgie, let's make examples of the soldiers who have bravely farted in the face of evil by giving them medals that they can bring back home so John Kerry can toss them over a fence.
TOMORROW: MORE GOOD NEWS DISGUISED AS BAD
[IMG]http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2004/04/30/image614954x.jpg[/IMG] "I'm gonna win that immunity idol, dammit."
I suggest you read a few good books on the prison systems in America. From the days of Toqueville to present, American penal systems(from the root word pennance) has been a global oddity.
While Africa and Islam were selling their undesireables off into slavery or executing them and their entire families, America was spending the public treasury to house, clothe, and feed undesireables and then putting their families on public assistance.
We Americans have such a huge GDP, we can afford a justice system and somehow we think that's a shared global priority. It's not. Ninety percent of the world spends most of it's governing time figuring out how to cull the herd. We spend it pampering the herd because we can afford it.
My dad spent twenty years working in the prison system(maximum security) and you do have a right to be concerned about the treatment of prisoners, but your concerns would be more genuine right here at home, not in Iraq. You also need some reality checks on the behavior and management of prisoners. They have nothing but time and resources to do you harm, which in Iraq is why they got there. You must keep them off balance and confused 24/7. It's a science I'm sad to say.
I'm less concerned about the prisoners here in the US who have been completely through our justice system, have attorneys and many liberal organizations looking out for their welfare. In the battlefield, enemy combatants have none of that; in addition, are subject to conventions on the treatment of enemy prisoners to which we are a signatory. Few of those prisoners are anything more than suspects; few have had any charges levied, and it's doubtful that the MPs there had any responsibility for "working" the prisoners to keep them off balance.
I don't have a problem with tough interrogation, and much less of a problem with what happens in the heat of battle. But I do believe that no one up the chain of command had any hint of this. Sometimes it's best to just be out in the open and admit a problem rather than build a justification that might not withstand the test of time. Take care.
Just what do you think a BAU is in a state prison?
I can't blame anyone trying to be compassionate with genuine motives, but you need to do your homework my friend.
In 1998, during the Lewinski affair, the Democrats had several defensive mechanisms. First was denial, then attacking the investigators, then trivialization (it's all about sex), diverting attention to other "more serious" things ($50 million with all the crime going on, etc), and finally, moral equivalancy (Everybody does it).
At that time, It seemed clear to me that the Dems were on the wrong side, and we, especially here at FR, were on the right side. Now, unfortunately, the shoe appears to be on the other foot, and we at FR have used every one of those defensive tools on this and related threads to justify or trivialize what has happened.
Telling anyone that the harm these actions have done to our political capital in that part of the world should be ignored because the same things happen here in America every day is simply an example of moral equivalancy. I don't question the veracity of what you are saying. I'm merely telling you that it is irrelevant to this discussion. I would invite you to start a thread on the American justice system if you are that concerned. I want us to succeed in the war against terrorism, and will not be drawn into any argument that posits some unrelated example of moral equivalancy to either parry the original argument or justify it.
I can't blame anyone trying to be compassionate with genuine motives, but you need to do your homework my friend.
This has nothing to do with compassion, and everything to do with the rule of law during wartime.
Whatchya gonna do?
I think the 9/11 commission is asking one thing and demanding another, while hiding behind civility.
Let's study the Israeli's and their experience with Islamic prisoners? I'd love to hear some running history of the methods used in Israeli prisons. On the one hand I know they are good, compassionate people. On the other, they are constantly being attacked and gathering intel is vital. How do they walk that line? Do they?
What experience have the Russians had with prisoners from the Chechnyian conflict? Turkey? Greece? Spain? Indonesia?
Again, I say uniformed combatants. No uniform, no rules. That's the Geneva Convention. There are not too many countries who are signators of the Geneva Convention.
I am not supporting violence toward them. I'm just saying that your argument of rules of war do not apply based on our being a signator of the Geneva Convention. You need to belong to a state who has declared war for that and you need to wear their uniform.
You are correct that we do not know where these prisoners came from, yet we believe we are in a war, and as such, our military leaders are requiring that we comply with the rules of war, which is not all that difficult. We are after all, the strongest military power in the world, and should not attempt to use the non uniform issue to circumvent our responsibilities.
As I have stated before, I support strong interrogation techniques if we have reason to believe they will be productive, and I rarely question actions resulting from the heat of battle. The commander on the ground must be given wide leeway in the pursuit of victory.
As you well know, that is not what this is about. This is about alleged atrocities, not committed in the heat of battle, or even by responsible individuals. This appears to be about out of control soldiers with inadequate supervision.
The world is not just Mother Theresa on one end and Saddam on the other. That's not a moral relativism excuse either. Just because you're not in Mother Theresa's camp does not imply you are in Saddam's.
I remember my dad telling me about North Koreans captured in the Korean War by American units, and then turned over to South Korean units as POW's in good health and condition. The NK's lived about as long as it took to lock and load under the SK units custody.
Where do we stand historically in this action in Iraq? I think this won't even get a footnote.
Sigh...it's a different world now, because the Left pretty much has had an easy time of it since WWII turning this into an oh-so-PC nation. We don't fight wars to win anymore. We "establish a presence" then worry about winning "hearts and minds." (A small consolation, thanks to the Euro-Left, Europe is even softer than we are.)
And Lyndon B. Johnson.
I, and every Sailor I've talked to over tha past days since this story broke, are absolutely DISGUSTED by the conduct of those yahoos that were supposed to guard those prisoners. It has shamed us all, and has brought great disgrace upon those of us who wear our uniforms with pride, and attempt at all times to carry ourselves with dignity.
I does not matter WHAT Saddam's toadies did before, or what the enemy does to us. You do NOT justify vile behavior in our troops by pointing to that of others. WE are the ones who are SUPPOSED to be different...the honorable ones, the strong who nonetheless use our strength to protect.
You all know me as a STRONG supporter of the Terror War, and those who continue to fight it. I know the same about you. Please listen to me on this. NO GOOD comes from trying to excuse or explain away what these vermin did. The damage they have done to our morale and standing with the American people is incalculable. When someone in a uniform does something rotten, then we ALL are tarred with that brush.
Another point: THIS WAS TORTURE. Some of the exact same things were done TO ME when I attended the Navy's Survival, Escape, Resistance, and Evasion scool, where we were taught through VERY rough experience that torture can be both MENTAL and PHYSICAL. Both are equally damaging and brutal. All the more so here, as there was absolutely no point to it, other than some yahoos getting their jollies.
These prisoners had no time-critical intel to impart. There weren't even any reports suggesting that they were being unruly. If they were carrying important intel, they would have been interrogated with drugs, far from cameras or laughing jerks in some perverse peanut gallery. If unruly, they would have been isolated. This was nothing more than some brutal, vicious REMFs getting their rocks off, while their superiors looked the other way. Christ, their top sarge was a prison guard in civilian life! He knew fully well that what they did was wrong.
You can say that the media is blowing this way out of proportion. So what? That's what they do, and it is only all the more reason that these jerks were stupid...they gave the Leftist media exactly what it wanted. Like it or not, the press has been on a hunt for another Me Lai since the start of the war. How stupid do you have to be then to do this, take pictures of it, or to ignore it if you are in command? Now the Left has what they want, and those idiots gave it to them on a silver platter.
Fraternity pranks? I was in a fraternity, and no such pranks were EVER played on ANY person in it. If they had been, I would have quit on the spot. Those prisoners, however, could not, nor could they go to a college administration with complaints about abuse, which can happen to ANY fraternity that doesn't watch its ass.
Anyone who thinks that this "wasn't so bad" is invited to spend two weeks in SERE school, and tell me again at that time.
The bottom line here is that anyone who puts on a uniform of the United States Armed Forces has a charge to keep. We are ALL taught about the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ regarding not only our own conduct if taken prisoner, but the treatment of others. We are also charged with conducting ourselves at all times in a dignified, honorable manner, and to not bring disgrace upon our Brothers or our Country. The morons who did these acts failed, in every respec, as did their commanders.
Yes, our enemies often act like savages. No, they do not recognize Geneva. However, as Americans, we are held to a much higher standard, both by the world AND the Americans we protect, as we should be. How many Americans now will look at EVERY returning Soldier as some ticking time bomb? How many will wonder, just a bit...
You guys have been my FRiends now for over three years. I've shared a great deal with you, and I hope I've earned your trust. If I have at all, please, trust me on this: Keep supporting the troops as you do. But DO NOT assume that those fools involved in this disgrace are worthy of that same support or respect that you shower us (thankfully) with. To condemn acts of barbarity is NOT to withdraw all support; it is in fact strengthening it for those who truly deserve it...those Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines who do their difficult and dangerous jobs with Honor, Courage, and Commitment, and who conduct themselves with the highest standards of decency in the defense of Liberty, as befits an American Fighting Man.
There is much sadness and shame in the ranks today. The hatred we feel for these animals is palpable for what they have done to us. We don't blame the press, or even the Liberals for this one. We blame those who DID IT, and we also realize that all of us will have to carry a portion of the shame, possibly for a long time to come.
Thak you all once again.
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