U.S. troops have the wrong tools

Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | May 5, 2004 | Lonnie Shoultz

[Vetvoice]

Everytime we accept delivery of one of those widow-makers, an "up-armored" humvee, an American soldier will die believing he was protected by true armor - not Plexiglas.

[gonzo]

The Hummer is just a better Jeep - never intended to be an Armoured Vehicle.

Trying to armour it is like putting wheels on a bumblebee. Stupid............FRegards

[Uncle Miltie]

Published in the Seattle P.I., which, I'm sure, has opposed every defense appropriation in my lifetime.

[MediaMole]

Just to play devil's advocate.

Aren't M113s succeptable to .50 cal fire?

Aren't M113s just as or more vulnerable to RPGs as Strykers?

Is the maintenance infrastructure in place to deal with putting hundreds of miles a week on tracked vehicles?

[FlashBack]

Amazing what 8 years of neglect/cuts will do to something huh!
Not to mention people that vote for the war and then vote NOT to fund it!!!
Those same people are now the biggest finger-pointers out there....AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH...(time for MY Dean-Scream)

[Thunder 6]

Not only that, but the Stryker BDE currently in Iraq is stationed at Ft. Lewis, just down I5, and the Washington National Guard's 81st BDE (also in Iraq) is Heaquartered in Seattle...good to see the PI is so interested in informing the soldiers loved ones about alleged problems with the armor...

regards,

[FreedomPoster]

Ping.

[Bon mots]

Personally, I favor bigger guns.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Thanks

[Cannoneer No. 4]

ping

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Everybody has an agenda. Those who stand to make money off Strykers have theirs, as do those who stand to make money off M113's, and they all claim it's all for the troops.

And then there are those who want to politicize every death and create in the minds of the mothers of America the notion that it is above and beyond the call of duty to ride in an unarmored vehcle.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

They have an answer for every question. They can sell us armor upgrade packages and an entirely new maintenance infrastructure, if only we weren't so blind.

Shoultz is tied in with Hackworth. You have to wade through a lot of histrionics to get to the nuggets worth keeping.

[Future Snake Eater]

Aren't M113s succeptable to .50 cal fire?

Aren't M113s just as or more vulnerable to RPGs as Strykers?

Yep. Obviously whoever wrote this has never laid eyes on an M113. At least the Humvee is quicker. The -113 is slow and still thin-skinned. From what I've been reading the Strykers have been doing very well over there. One of them got hit with an IED, but it didn't totally demolish it and kill everyone inside like this article would have you believe.

One thing people fail to realize is just how cheap and effective an RPG is. They're powerful enough to knock the hell out of a Bradley. The only armored vehicle that's generally "safe" against it is the Abrams MBT. So unless we're going to perform all operations in the M-1 or armor everything we have to that standard, IEDs and RPGs will continue to be a problem. The enemy has tons of them, and, luckily, they can't shoot for sh*t. Not only that, but we're seizing massive weapons shipments on a fairly regular basis. We just have to keep widdling away at them.

There's supposed to be a next-gen Humvee coming out, maybe they can make engine, suspension, and armor adjustments to it so this won't be as big a problem anymore.

[donozark]

I don't tell war stories, however, I never saw a Jeep survive an encounter with an RPG nor a "booby-trap" as we called them back then-now IED. NVA/VC oft times wired 152/137MM arty shells along roads/trails. Look at the pics from 'Nam-many GIs riding atop APCs. Good reason for it. Most preferred to be "sniper bait" as opposed to burning alive...

I wish we could have a vehicle "impervious" to IED/RPG fire. However, with advent of new Thermobaric round for RPG? I doubt we could do it.

The threat of sudden, violent death/dismemberment surely weighs on our troops. Just as it did to those of us who served in VN and our fathers/grandfathers before us. The injuries from such explosions are traumatic to survivors and demoralizing to those around them. Amputations. Prolonged rehab. Frequent trips to the VA. Prosthetic devices. All bode ill for the young GI...

Can such be prevented by "upgrading armor?" Time will tell...

[Cannoneer No. 4]

ROAD-BOUND ON THE LETHAL NON-LINEAR BATTLEFIELD: HOW THE ENEMY ESCAPES AND U.S. TROOPS ARE KILLED

There are some nuggets in here interspersed with the M113 sales pitches.

[Jonah Hex]

To answer your questions:

Yes.

Yes.

No.

To date, Stryker have taken hits from IEDs and RPGs that would have disabled or destroyed an APC. One Stryker has been lost to RPG fire with no loss of life.

[R. Scott]

Are the 700 upgraded M113A2-3 protected from mines IEDs and RPGs? Anything less than complete perfect protect would be unacceptable to many.

[.cnI redruM]

Very true. I don't recall any LFTE being performed on up-armored humvees. Strykers suck like Monica at a personal development session with the president, but at least they have undergone LFTE. This means the soldiers driving and fighting on them know what the Stryker's problems are.

[Lion Den Dan]

Aren't M113s succeptable to .50 cal fire?

No more succeptable than a Stryker, probably more resistant when fueled. Far more resistant than any configuration of Hummer

Aren't M113s just as or more vulnerable to RPGs as Strykers?

Late issue M113s should be more resistant to RPG than basic Stryker though I am not privy to test data and probably could not discuss it if I were. The 113 is a tough little outfit.

Is the maintenance infrastructure in place to deal with putting hundreds of miles a week on tracked vehicles?

This would require effort but IMHO a doable task. Consider the rapid destruciton of Hummers and look at the maintenance assets in Kuait plus the track maintenance assets already on hand and the task is not so overwhelming.

[af_vet_rr]

Colin Quinn said something the other night on his show that is probably appropriate to this - it was along the lines that we should have went in as an occupying force, key word being force, we should have made it clear who was in charge, treated it like an old west town out of control and we go in like one of the big name marshals. Instead we acted like a bunch of ACLU lawyers armed with 'Chicken Soup for the Soul' and now we have the situations we have.

Driving around in humvees doesn't exactly project the air of an occupying force. They know these things can be easily taken out, and they aren't afraid of them.