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The small-town girl who ended up on every channel (Lynndie England Leash Girl)
The Baltimore Sun via SMH ^ | May 7, 2004 | John Woestendiek in Fort Ashby, West Virginia

Posted on 05/06/2004 8:13:05 AM PDT by dead

Edited on 05/06/2004 8:34:29 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

Lynndie England loved a good storm. During tornado warnings her mother would have to drag her back inside the house. Her teachers say she wanted a career as a storm-chaser.

Now, the perfect storm has found her.

From hometown hero to the reviled woman holding the leash . . . US Reserve
soldier Lynndie England with an Iraqi prisoner in Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.
Photo: The Washington Post

The petite 21-year-old army reservist from the quiet crossroads town of Fort Ashby in West Virginia is the most visible character in the controversy over the abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. She is the thumbs-up girl, the pixie-ish, T-shirted soldier, smiling, pointing and posing for the camera with naked and humiliated inmates.

Soon after the release of the photographs, Terrie England was on the telephone with her daughter while watching television.

Full story ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: West Virginia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: amateurdominatrix; dummy; idiot; iraqipow; lynndieengland
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To: af_vet_rr
It will stop that one.

If that's the way to stop terrorists, then I, personally, am not willing to go that far.

Ah...so you would rather see another plane hit a building than see some terrorists hazed? I see your point then.

201 posted on 05/06/2004 11:25:58 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: GrandEagle
We can fight them over there or over here. It's our choice.
202 posted on 05/06/2004 11:28:22 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: cake_crumb
I think they outa give her a raise.
203 posted on 05/06/2004 11:29:07 AM PDT by ping jockey
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To: SandyInSeattle
I was just clarifying.
204 posted on 05/06/2004 11:29:39 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: dead
Looks like a job interview in San Francisco...
205 posted on 05/06/2004 11:30:01 AM PDT by talleyman (Moose lips sink ships.)
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To: AppyPappy
BINGO! This wasn't even torture. It was designed to break these vicious terrorists in any way possible. GOOD!

Torture SHOULD be used as a last alternative. How many terrorists have been interned so far? About 8,000? All of whom know that Iraq is where to go if one wants to get it on with the great Satan?

Sounds to me like a vast pool for intel gathering. What do you think?
206 posted on 05/06/2004 11:32:04 AM PDT by Freemeorkillme
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To: ping jockey
Too much coffee?
207 posted on 05/06/2004 11:32:16 AM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions = Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: ping jockey; ZULU
LOL maybe yes to both.
The shock and outrage I felt is gone. Yes it was gross, but this is has been blown out of proportion. I helped blow out of proportion myself here on FR. But at least I got it all out. Thanks to all of you for helping me get over this.
208 posted on 05/06/2004 11:32:20 AM PDT by GottaLuvAkitas1 (What a Tangled Web We Weave . .when first we practice to deceive!)
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To: Henrietta
There is no excuse for this behavior, period.

This is simply stupid. There is no excuse for this level of stupidity, coming from someone who very obviously do not understand an iota of what's going on here. But hey, that's the level of stupidity that seems to permeate a good portion of this chorus.

So these guys are being humiliated. I'd say this is not random, it's not done for kicks or for "twisted fantasies", as another yahoo fancying himself a psychologist opined on another thread. This was done to save American lives, an objective seemingly quite unimportant to a great many people here.

Subject an Islamic fighter to this kind of thing, and you break his will - without breaking his head. That is why the Arabs are in hysterics. It's effective in the way it would be effective to force them on a diet of pork - it interferes with their place in the Jihad honor structure, and even with their chances of being a good shahid. And it makes them spill their guts, which saves American lives. Of course that's inexcusable.

Would you want OUR soldiers treated this way

American soldiers are treated a bit differently. Involving mutilation and the like. But of course, that is excusable.

Now excuse me, while I go puke.

209 posted on 05/06/2004 11:32:44 AM PDT by DonaldDuke
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To: spunkets
I was just clarifying.

Okay! :-)

210 posted on 05/06/2004 11:33:46 AM PDT by SandyInSeattle (You need tons click "co-ordinating")
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To: AppyPappy
We can fight them over there or over here. It's our choice.
I agree, being sexually deviant with their prisoners is a completely different issue - totally unrelated with keeping the fight over there. But it does speak volumes about us as a nation; both to our friends and enemies. It does nothing to make our friendship ties stronger but does make those who hate us more resolved.
211 posted on 05/06/2004 11:39:23 AM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: rintense
"She looked like she was enjoying smoking that cigarette and pointing to male genitals. Sorry my ass."

Military personnel and folks in general are expected to learn from their mistakes. Note that no cigarette burns were actually inflicted.

The Army does not put privates in charge of determining the policies and treatments of prisoners. There were senior noncoms and officers there, that the Army did give that charge to that were effectively AWOL.

These personnel are effectively just out of HS. There's a whole spectrum of capacity and wisdom to be found in such a group. If they are tossed into a hot war w/o officers that actively ensure that they adhere to the intent and objectives of the US, this sort of thing can be expected to happen.

212 posted on 05/06/2004 11:42:44 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: GrandEagle
"It does nothing to make our friendship ties stronger but does make those who hate us more resolved."

More resolved then, say, flying planes into our Pentagon, WTC towers, killing 3,000 citizens in one blow,....you know their track record since Beirut...or perhaps not.

WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT US!! WE ARE THERE TO KILL THEM ALL AND CRUSH OUR ENEMIES BENEATH OUR HEELS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT RISE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY!!

DEATH TO THE ENEMIES!! VICTORY FOR FREEDOM!!
213 posted on 05/06/2004 11:45:14 AM PDT by Freemeorkillme
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To: GrandEagle
I don't want to be friendly with those people. I want them to fear us.
214 posted on 05/06/2004 11:46:26 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Freemeorkillme
Considering how these people treat women, I think it is poetic justic.
215 posted on 05/06/2004 11:48:22 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
I don't want to be friendly with those people. I want them to fear us.
We agree! - Finally!
I want them to fear us militarily, and respect us otherwise. I could care less if they like us.
It is apparent that we don't agree on the method to gain this end. I'll extent the virtual handshake and will respect our different views.
216 posted on 05/06/2004 11:51:21 AM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: AppyPappy
I was raised, and still believe, that homosexuality and other such deviant behavior is wrong, no matter the situation. You can make fun of me for holding onto such old-fashioned beliefs, it won't bother me, I'm proud of being old-fashioned and holding onto those beliefs.

I understand that those younger than me may not see that kind of behavior as being wrong or sinful, and as such I wouldn't force my personal religious/moral beliefs upon you, AppyPappy.

That said, I do have one question for you. Since you consider that to be just "hazing", if that was your daughter, would you proudly tell people "that picture of the girl with the naked men in the dogpile, or on the leash, or simulating homosexual sex, that girl is my daughter!!".

I ask, because I'm curious, so don't take it as a personal attack.

217 posted on 05/06/2004 11:51:30 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: GrandEagle
I'll extent the virtual handshake and will respect our different views.

ME AND YOU. CAGE MATCH....IN THE OMNI!!!!!

218 posted on 05/06/2004 11:52:14 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
ME AND YOU. CAGE MATCH
LOL!
219 posted on 05/06/2004 11:53:02 AM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: GrandEagle
They tore down the Omni in Atlanta now that I think about it.
220 posted on 05/06/2004 11:56:29 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: GrandEagle
I agree, being sexually deviant with their prisoners is a completely different issue - totally unrelated with keeping the fight over there. But it does speak volumes about us as a nation; both to our friends and enemies. It does nothing to make our friendship ties stronger but does make those who hate us more resolved.

I don't think it speaks volumes about us as a nation. The USA is definitely not a sexually deviant nation. If anything, we are mocked for being considered prudes (that is probably why people around the world are shocked to see Americans engaged in such behavior with prisoners).

Our troops are expected to reflect our mainstream values, not to reflect something that came out of a San Francisco bathhouse.

I think it speaks volumes about the lack of supervision or accountability that some troops have. It's unfortunate, that with an all-volunteer, motivated military, that more supervision or accountability is needed for some.

I do agree with you that such conduct, even by a minority of our troops, will strengthen the resolve of those who would fight us. That is something that some who defend this kind of behavior seem to miss or turn a blind eye towards.

221 posted on 05/06/2004 11:59:14 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: GrandEagle; AppyPappy
Go find a partner, GrandEagle. Let's make it a Tag Team Barbwire event!
222 posted on 05/06/2004 12:00:09 PM PDT by Freemeorkillme
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To: tiamat
The war is just.

This female soldier should be court-martialed & jailed along with any other soldiers identified in the photos. The photographer should have a fatal accident in custody.

The president is right in his pursuit of the war.

The president owes the Iraqi people an apology on behalf of all decent Americans.

Rumsfield must tender his resignation if the President was not made aware of the extent of the knowledge of this activity. For heaven's sake the Red Cross knew about it, the military was investigating it, why wasn't the president prepared to deal with it?

The president must accept his resignation.
223 posted on 05/06/2004 12:02:22 PM PDT by YankeeGirl (Parent of a theatre geek, a serious athlete, and a "belly dancing" swim team member.)
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To: af_vet_rr
Our troops are expected to reflect our mainstream values, not to reflect something that came out of a San Francisco bathhouse.
I agree - and stand (or sit as it were) corrected.
224 posted on 05/06/2004 12:03:27 PM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: Freemeorkillme
Go find a partner, GrandEagle
LOL! Hey, I gotta get a LITTLE work in sometime today!
225 posted on 05/06/2004 12:05:45 PM PDT by GrandEagle
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To: Chief_Joe

The very reason the case seems to have been bottled necked and is dragging on is because of a reluctance to prosecute some of those responsible who happen to be women: England and Karpinski.

There are two other women--Specialists Megan Ambuhl & Sabrina Harmon--who have been charged. The others, besides Pvt. Lynndie England are: Specialist Charles A. Graner, Sgt. Javal Davis, Pvt. Jeremy Sivits & Staff Sgt. Ivan L. ''Chip'' Frederick.

226 posted on 05/06/2004 12:16:03 PM PDT by elli1
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To: YankeeGirl
I agree: the war is just.

I can't tell yet about Rumsfeld.

I REALLY want to know if it was a Pentagon leak that sent those pics to the media.

Do we know yet if Red Cross tried to tell anyone what they saw?

227 posted on 05/06/2004 12:20:48 PM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno World!")
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To: DonaldDuke
Subject an Islamic fighter to this kind of thing, and you break his will - without breaking his head. That is why the Arabs are in hysterics.

Hmmm...might be a good way to keep the Shiite leadership in line - threaten to let Lynndie England hold their leashes for a week.

228 posted on 05/06/2004 12:41:23 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: ZULU
All we DO know are they Iraqis

Actually we don't know that for certain. They are almost as likely to be third party nationals who went to Iraq to kill Americans and other infidels.

229 posted on 05/06/2004 12:47:00 PM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: YankeeGirl
Oh btw, the reason I was so harsh on the photographer is that I'll bet some of the scenes were posturing for the camera.

However, if you came across this type of behavior, you should try to STOP it, or report it, not encourage it and the participants.

Unless of course you are a sicko, which I believe he or she is.
230 posted on 05/06/2004 12:47:20 PM PDT by YankeeGirl
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To: dead
<INSPECTOR CLOUSEAU VOICE> Yes, but that is not my dog.
231 posted on 05/06/2004 12:50:02 PM PDT by savedbygrace
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To: Mr. Jeeves
...might be a good way to keep the Shiite leadership in line - threaten to let Lynndie England hold their leashes for a week.

There's nothing coincidental about a female being involved in this, of course. It reinforces the humiliation. I'd lay a small bet that most prisoners cracked without being put in these kinds of situations at all - just from being shown pictures: this is what we did to your friends, who are now not eligible for anything. Scratch heaven, scratch 72 virgins, instead go straight to h*ll and do not pass go, when your time comes.

Get the idea?

232 posted on 05/06/2004 12:52:34 PM PDT by DonaldDuke
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To: El Gato
Your right. That is possible.

But we still know very little about who these people are and why they are there.

All the more reason to expect civilized behavior from their guards.

233 posted on 05/06/2004 1:15:05 PM PDT by ZULU
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To: WOSG
WOSG wrote:



Let's be clear about one thing: One of the prisoners identified had killed coalition forces, then was taken prisoner, then incited a prison riot, and then was punished for it. Nobody was, or should have been, "playing" anything.





And I see NOTHING wrong with hauling THAT one out and just hanging him. And any comrades he had who helped.

Hang them.

Preferably in front of the others.

Somebody check me on this, but if you foment riot, GC allows for execution?

this other stuff is simply unclean.

And for people talking about this as an interrogation method, there's other, very effective, ways to do it, and they don't involve this.

Or generators.



234 posted on 05/06/2004 1:16:03 PM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno World!")
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To: cake_crumb
no just tired of listening to the sheep bawl.
235 posted on 05/06/2004 1:24:05 PM PDT by ping jockey
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To: irishlass
You are so right!! Insensitive is the correct word. If I knew your origin I would give you a proper stereotype. Maybe you could send this proud and patriotic WV republican, and grandmother, a pair of used shoes - just in case I ever need to go outside the trailer.
236 posted on 05/06/2004 1:53:14 PM PDT by Bushiefan
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To: SLB
Quote (The last time I was in Germany I had an elderly German for a friend. He had spent most of WWII as a POW in Mississippi. He was first captured by the Brits in Africa and then transferred to US custody. All treated him with respect, but there were others who were not treated well on both sides.) Quote

My uncle was in a German prison camp for about 1 1/2 years and he said they were always treated well.

One of the guards said he had relatives in America and wanted to visit them when the war was over and jokeingly said he did not want to have his a** kicked by one of the ex prisoners if he should run across one of them on a street corner.
237 posted on 05/06/2004 1:58:45 PM PDT by superiorslots
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To: tiamat
And for people talking about this as an interrogation method, there's other, very effective, ways to do it, and they don't involve this.

Or generators.

And they don't end with our President kowtowing to the Arab world.

238 posted on 05/06/2004 2:07:47 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr
af_vet_rr wrote:


And they don't end with our President kowtowing to the Arab world.




Last thing in the world you want to do with these people!

You tell them, "The people who did this are in violation and will be sternly dealt with".

No explainations, no groveling, no apologies.

End of story.

239 posted on 05/06/2004 2:11:01 PM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno World!")
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To: tiamat
this other stuff is simply unclean.

And for people talking about this as an interrogation method, there's other, very effective, ways to do it, and they don't involve this.

Sorry, but you show the same bottomless ignorance about what you're fighting as some of the others here :). Fact is, there isn't any means of getting hard-held information from these people that is halfway as effective, or even as humane.

Now, if by any chance one of your loved ones should make it back from Iraq thanks to this particular unit's work, I'm sure you'll remember to curse Ms. England.

Spitting on the servicemen is such an American tradition.

240 posted on 05/06/2004 2:13:14 PM PDT by DonaldDuke
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To: Cincinatus' Wife
Bring it on!! Is this sad episode a reflection on West Virginia? By that reasoning all American soldiers are guilty and we all know that is not the case. Why is WV catching so much flak today when we should be uniting to keep Kerry out of the White House? WV was an important factor in the election of Pres. Bush.
241 posted on 05/06/2004 2:16:34 PM PDT by Bushiefan
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To: DonaldDuke
You don't know jack about me.

I happen to have some family over there, and I'm out of an Army family, some of whom were Military Intelligence and SpecOps.

There's LOTS of ways to get information, and it does NOT involve anything like this.

242 posted on 05/06/2004 2:21:05 PM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno World!")
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To: GrandEagle
Unnecessarily irritating the entire Muslim world does just that.


243 posted on 05/06/2004 2:27:40 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: tiamat
No explainations, no groveling, no apologies.

Exactly. President Bush went way too far with his apologizing - this kind of behavior is not present throughout the military, this was a small group of pervs getting their jollies. People can say what they want about him, but he appears to be a good Christian, and this kind of conduct won't be tolerated in the military. He had no reason to make the time and effort to apologize on Arab TV networks.

244 posted on 05/06/2004 2:31:30 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: tiamat
I happen to have some family over there, and I'm out of an Army family

So my scenario might come true, perhaps.

There's LOTS of ways to get information

Indeed there is. And if you think that beeing "soft-tortured" or drugged is any more humane than being photographed in a silly position with no clothes on, your relatives A: didn't teach you anything, or B: they don't know much.

The detainees are sort of different than what you're probably thinking about as normal people. Remember Mike Spann? Know how he died? He was bitten to death - they ripped his throat out.

And you're telling me that a soft spot in their psyche shouldn't be exploited, to spare your sensibilities?? Cry me a river.

245 posted on 05/06/2004 2:32:43 PM PDT by DonaldDuke
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To: dead
Has this picture been verfied. It seems to me there is something not quite right about it.
246 posted on 05/06/2004 2:33:23 PM PDT by VRWC_minion
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To: dead
But in January came a phone call from Baghdad. "I just want you to know that there might be some trouble," Terrie England recalled her daughter saying.

It's still weird that everyone in the military knew this was coming but Bush. Heads should roll.

247 posted on 05/06/2004 2:37:45 PM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: tiamat
One of the prisoners identified had killed coalition forces, then was taken prisoner, then incited a prison riot, and then was punished for it.

And I see NOTHING wrong with hauling THAT one out and just hanging him. And any comrades he had who helped. Hang them. Preferably in front of the others.

Like this?

The picture is of U.S. soldiers carrying out "on-the-spot" executions of some of the guards at the Dachau concentration camp. The soldier in the center is setting up his .50 cal machine gun. The soldiers with their hands up are about to be shot. No trial. No tribunal. No questions. What the soldiers found was too horrific.


248 posted on 05/06/2004 2:37:48 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Law is not justice but process
"Your outrage is well directed, but I am a prosecutor and I believe that bad people are the ultimate reason things like this happen. I believe the measure of a system is how it responds to the actions of bad people. Under Saddam those who were effective at torture and humiliation of prisoners were promoted and decorated for their actions. Under our constitutional republic such actions MUST must be met not with approbation but with condemnation AND punishment."

What an incredible post. Thoughtful, well-reasoned, forceful.

I totally agree with you.

Wherever you are prosecuting the bad guys, Godpseed. You are the kind of governmental authority this country needs more of!

Ed
249 posted on 05/06/2004 2:44:04 PM PDT by Sir_Ed
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To: DonaldDuke
You think I am objecting for humanitarian reason. Let me clue you in: I don't give a rat's hind-end that these prisoner's got badly handled and might have had their feelings hurt.

It's not about those prisoners. It's about us.

This is a Civilization War and this sort of dicking about only hinders that.


I've looked at your profile page. You like things that "go bang".

You ever serve?

Or are you just another one of the arm-chair commandos gloating over this?

Every Vet or service person *I* have talked to ( and i've talked to a bunch this week) is infuriated over what these idiots did. Our military is SUPPOSED to be more professional than this, and 98 % of it IS. These clowns just peed on that.

Then there's the "being in the field" ramifications, both for our troops and for any civilians on the ground.

What happened at the prison complicates things ENOURMOUSLY and will have both tactical and strategic fall-out. ( I feel really bad for that last American who got grabbed... that person is likely to suffer MORE and for a longer time because of these antics) There's going to be more of OUR GUYS dead because these idiots didn't have enough to do.



Then there is the honor, pride and dignity of our military and the fact that what these morons did reflects on them ALL, and they are P.O.'d about it.

England is going to be lucky if she lives long enough to get courted. It's entirely possible that she might have an "accident".

250 posted on 05/06/2004 2:52:51 PM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno World!")
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