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From Communism to Fascism?
Wall Street Journal ^ | February 22, 2002 | Michael A. Ledeen

Posted on 05/08/2004 10:37:33 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis

Edited on 05/09/2004 7:24:09 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

As President Bush, now in Beijing, gets up close to the rulers of China, he must have conflicting feelings.

We are told that the Chinese have helped us fight terror, which is cause for satisfaction. On the other hand, the CIA has recently revised sharply upwards its estimate of Chinese military power in the near future, which is cause for concern. As he ponders what China is and may be, Mr. Bush might reflect that the People's Republic is something quite unique, and therefore very difficult to understand.

China is not, as is invariably said, in transition from communism to a freer and more democratic state. It is, instead, something we have never seen before: a maturing fascist regime. This new phenomenon is hard to recognize, both because Chinese leaders continue to call themselves communists, and also because the fascist states of the first half of the 20th century were young, governed by charismatic and revolutionary leaders, and destroyed in World War II. China is anything but young, and it is governed by a third or fourth generation of leaders who are anything but charismatic.

The current and past generations of Chinese leaders, from Deng Xiaoping to Jiang Zemin, may have scrapped the communist economic system, but they have not embraced capitalism. To be sure, the state no longer owns "the means of production." There is now private property, and, early last June, businessmen were formally admitted to the Communist Party. Profit is no longer taboo; it is actively encouraged at all levels of Chinese society, in public and private sectors. And the state is fully engaged in business enterprise, from the vast corporations owned wholly or in part by the armed forces, to others with top management and large shareholders simultaneously holding government jobs.

This is neither socialism nor capitalism; it is the infamous "third way" of the corporate state, first institutionalized in the 1920s by the founder of fascism, Benito Mussolini, then copied by other fascists in Europe.

Full story ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Political Humor/Cartoons; Politics/Elections; Unclassified; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: bush; china; communism; fascism; marxism; michaelledeen
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1 posted on 05/08/2004 10:37:34 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis
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To: NovemberCharlie
bump
2 posted on 05/08/2004 10:41:33 PM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Remember_Salamis
Well actually Communism & Fascism so closely resemble one another that its differences are incidental. Both require State interevention & the repression of dissent. Not to mention the growing of government.


4 posted on 05/08/2004 10:58:14 PM PDT by Republic_of_Secession.
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To: Remember_Salamis
Chinese leaders often proclaim a peaceful intent, yet they are clearly preparing for war, and have been for many years. Optimists insist that China is not expansionist, but optimists pooh-poohed Hitler's imperialist speeches too, and there is a lot of Chinese rhetoric that stresses Beijing's historic role, as if there were an historic entitlement to superpower status.

For the most part, this is a pretty good article as are most from the Wall st. Journal. The above quote is probably the only one that is out of line.

Virtually every country in the world is preparing for war because to be prepared is a whole lot better than unprepared. But I don't think you need to be compared to hitler just because you are preparing for war.

5 posted on 05/08/2004 11:02:52 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: Remember_Salamis
Re #1

Basically, the author is describing the resurgent Chinese empire of the past under the facade of a communist state. There is no emperor, but the desire to follow their perceived manifest destiny of "Zhonghua" is strong as ever. Their goal now is to become the 21st-century's version of Tang dynasty, the greatest Chinese empire of all time.

China has been this way for more than two millenia. It is going back to its ancient root politically. Lack of emperor system and visible Confucian ideology somehow fooled many outsiders that today's China is something totally new in Chinese history. However, the truth is that it is another good old Chinese empire with modern industrial and market economic system.

6 posted on 05/08/2004 11:03:43 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: Remember_Salamis
China is not, as is invariably said, in transition from communism to a freer and more democratic state. It is, instead, something we have never seen before: a maturing fascist regime.

I don't think that's true. Franco's Spain was around for quite awhile and Imperial Japan lasted about 60 years as a fascist state. Then there are all the lessor fascist dictatorships that have historically governed Latin America.

7 posted on 05/08/2004 11:04:23 PM PDT by elmer fudd
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To: staytrue
"But I don't think you need to be compared to hitler just because you are preparing for war."

But the Chinese leaders rant, rave and threaten to blow us off of the face of the earth with nukes every few years.
8 posted on 05/09/2004 12:12:18 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: Jeff Head
Ping
9 posted on 05/09/2004 12:14:47 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: William Creel; Republic_of_Secession.
First: When comparing Fascism/Nazism and Communism/Socialism do not leave out the Republic/Capitalism and use an equal mark.Not to see who's better, but to learn something.

Second: I have not studied Franco, or Mussollini's governments closely, but did original research on USSR's 1930s-40s and Nazi Germany. I did so by analyzing actual Private correspondences of ordinary citizens, as well as inner system communiques. Saw how day to day things were approached. Equivalent maybe okay at the glance over level, but once you look at actual life examples, it does not do.

History has lessons for those who study it, openly, without prejudice. While we as humans have a tendency to rashly analyze things.

David R
10 posted on 05/09/2004 12:34:13 AM PDT by david_the_positive (level 101 (judge) level 201 (learn))
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To: Remember_Salamis
Fascism: Anti-Utopia or Another Variation?
...After Lenin died in the USSR and Mao in the PRC, these countries were communist in name only, and were run simply as one party states with absolute, arbitrary power. Nonetheless, Marxism/Leninism was and is “widely studied in order to gain insight” into the policies of these governments. The ideological roots of fascism have been neglected and are pertinent in the study of utopianism, because fascist ideology is derived from essentially utopian principles and is cousin to Marxism...

...
The elite Marxists are those who are best able to read the tea leaves of history to predict the future, and thus able to formulate the policies which will propel society toward its inevitable destiny sooner rather than later. Fascists invest their elite with superior knowledge of how to deal with the moment...

...
For reasons of ideological advocacy, it has been fashionable to characterize fascism as ‘capitalism’ run amok. There is simply no basis for this position, however. First of all, the word ‘capitalism’ has been misused for so long, that the only consistent meaning which can discerned from the context of typical usage is that it is a derogatory term for any economic activity wherein a government is not the primary agent. Yet, we are told that fascism is based upon a capitalist economy. Fascism developed mainly in France, Italy and Germany, during abortive attempts of transition from absolutist monarchy to parliamentary government. Mussolini, Hitler and their supporting ideological theorists were not quoting the likes of Thomas Hobbes, Adam Smith, John Locke, or the Founding Fathers of the United States of America for guidance. In other words, Fascism is rooted in the same ideological soil that produced Marxism...
11 posted on 05/09/2004 2:04:27 AM PDT by walford (http://utopia-unmasked.us)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Fascism is the common ground where Communism and Capitalism are growing closer each day. It is Bill Clinton's beloved "Third Way" (or, a I prefer to call it, the "Turd Way").
12 posted on 05/09/2004 3:37:13 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: William Creel
bttt
13 posted on 05/09/2004 4:09:01 AM PDT by BenLurkin (LESS government please, NOT more.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
bump
14 posted on 05/09/2004 4:57:08 AM PDT by foreverfree
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To: Remember_Salamis
Chinese leaders have often said they have no intention of following Mikhail Gorbachev's example.

Probably they have in mind the following breakout of Soviet Union and economical collapse.

15 posted on 05/09/2004 5:02:47 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: William Creel
Their is little difference between Communism and facism.

There is a big difference. Fascism allows private ownership of production and is based on national interest (as opposed to internationalism/globalism of Communism). Ideologies are also very different and they do matter.

16 posted on 05/09/2004 5:05:53 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: Remember_Salamis
The way Xlinton ran this country for eight years gives us a glimpse of how a fascist state would be. Don't like my policies? Here's the IRS to talk that position over with you and persuade you of the error of your ways.

Don't agree with me? I have your FBI file here. Want to be politically ruined?

Have damaging evidence against me? Isn't it a shame how your cat died so suddenly without warning like that?

17 posted on 05/09/2004 5:06:18 AM PDT by Hardastarboard
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To: walford
Fascism developed mainly in France, Italy and Germany, during abortive attempts of transition from absolutist monarchy to parliamentary government. Mussolini, Hitler and their supporting ideological theorists were not quoting the likes of Thomas Hobbes, Adam Smith, John Locke, or the Founding Fathers of the United States of America for guidance. In other words, Fascism is rooted in the same ideological soil that produced Marxism..

All the systems you mentioned above are rooted in the same soil - the soil of Enlightenment (or Endarkenment). They replaced the traditional systems of Christian monarchy.

18 posted on 05/09/2004 5:10:15 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: A. Pole
As a Christian and a conservative, it would be best to have a Christian monarchy over a fascist, Marxist, or destructive religious government. One can look at North Korea to see the end results of communism, one can look at the Islamic governments of the world to see their end, one can look at socialist tax and spent already socialist nations to see their end, or one can look at America to see the end results of Christian nations who are sovereign and elect their representatives and can own private property and cars and businesses and not be told by the government how to raise kids.
I love Christian based government over any other type of blood letting government of the world. When I see todays always angry and hateful democrats, I see fascism that leads to a destroyed and unhappy America.
19 posted on 05/09/2004 6:52:12 AM PDT by wgeorge2001 ( There is no fear of God before their eyes.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Thanks for the post. I agree. I have been arguing this very point on China for years, much to the chagrin of some.
20 posted on 05/09/2004 7:00:22 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (The Fourth Estate is a Fifth Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Remember_Salamis
BTW, I got an irate, argumentative response from a newbie a few years back, from Taiwan (who signed up that day and has never posted since) that wanted to 'discuss' my statement that China is a Fascist Nation.

We are being watched here at FR.

21 posted on 05/09/2004 7:07:19 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (The Fourth Estate is a Fifth Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: A. Pole
Precisely. The Chinese government beat the post Tienanmin Square democracy movement by simply saying to the Chinese people, 'Do you want to end up like Russia ?'

The similarity between Communism and Fascism is that both derive from Social Darwinism. But it ends there. Many on this board argue about fascism being a "left wing" ideology. Which spectacularly ignore the obvious truth that the Right welcomed the fascists as allies, allowed them to come to power, survived intact under fascist rule, and the basis of the anti-Hitler and anti-Mussolini plots were the old boy network while the Left was completely and totally destroyed.
22 posted on 05/09/2004 7:08:52 AM PDT by Sam the Sham
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To: Sam the Sham
The similarity between Communism and Fascism is that both derive from Social Darwinism.

Darwinism is later than Communism and Communist collectivism is opposed to the Social Darwinism. Social Darwinism is shared by Free Market fundamentalism and National Socialism.

23 posted on 05/09/2004 7:20:41 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: Republic_of_Secession.
Well actually Communism & Fascism so closely resemble one another that its differences are incidental. Both require State interevention & the repression of dissent. Not to mention the growing of government.

Half right. America is a fascist country. The Wall Street Journal understands that fascism is an economic rather than political system. This is best summed up by Mussolini's infamous retort "I don't care if I own it, I am going to control it."

Under a fascist system there is free enterprise, profit, and private property. Businesses are heavily regulated to the point that it makes products so expensive (prescription drugs are a good example) that there are calls for the state to take over the economy in order to "fix" what is perceived to be a failure of the free market.

Communism, socialism and fascism are simply different manifestations of state control over the economy.

24 posted on 05/09/2004 7:21:34 AM PDT by nonliberal (Graduate: Curtis E. LeMay School of International Relations)
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To: Remember_Salamis; All
Wall Street Journal items are now excerpt-only, even when picked up by other publications.

Updated FR Excerpt and Link Only or Deny Posting List

25 posted on 05/09/2004 7:28:38 AM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: TigerLikesRooster; Cincinatus' Wife; Travis McGee; Grampa Dave; Squantos; tallhappy; archy
However, the truth is that it is another good old Chinese empire with modern industrial and market economic system.

bttt

26 posted on 05/09/2004 7:31:29 AM PDT by risk
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Hardastarboard
You left out one part of the equation in your excellent summation of the Clintoons:

If your corporation is loyal to my political party and me and backs up that loyality with large donations, your corporation will have no problems with laws that could hurt your corporation or from capitalism re new and better products/services. If you don't donate to me, I will sic Jake Reno on you and make your corporation another Microsoft.

During the 1930/40's, the Fascists in charge of the Italians, Germans and Japanese set up the proto type Fascist Governments and gave the state's blessing to the large companies which supported them. Interesting fact is many of those corporations are still around and bigger than ever.
28 posted on 05/09/2004 7:50:16 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (FReep eye for the liberal lie or what left wing lies of the media will we expose today?)
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To: Grampa Dave
Interesting fact is many of those corporations are still around and bigger than ever.

You making fun of my Volkswagon? ;^}

29 posted on 05/09/2004 8:18:00 AM PDT by budwiesest
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To: budwiesest
Volkswagen, Mercedes, BMW, Bayer and many of the mainline Japanese companies before/during WWII are still there.

Does your Volkswagen allow you to bring a Bud near it?:)
30 posted on 05/09/2004 8:29:31 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (FReep eye for the liberal lie or what left wing lies of the media will we expose today?)
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To: Grampa Dave
Certainly, the company has paid enough into government over the years to keep it well-greased.

However, any company that promotes their product, using two bikini-clad models wrestling in mud over the 'less filling, tastes great' debate ought to be considered for contention in the race to become the officially sanctioned beer of state. ;^}

31 posted on 05/09/2004 9:35:08 AM PDT by budwiesest
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To: William Creel
Their is little difference between Communism and facism

Well, fascism pretends to aspire to elitism but instead puts liberal art wackos in power.

Communism pretends to be against elitism and puts liberal art wackos in power.

So I guess the end result is the same... and as Ghandi said, only the paths differ to the divinity... (sarcasm)

32 posted on 05/09/2004 9:56:38 AM PDT by JudgemAll
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To: A. Pole
Marxism and Darwinism appeared about the same time.

But Social Darwinism is different from Darwinism. Social Darwinism applied "survival of the fittest" philosophy to society as a whole and said that it is good that humanity should play God and let the strong devour the weak and unfit. Social Darwinism was fashionable among turn of the century intelligentsia.

What we call Communism was actually Marxism-Leninism. It was Lenin who created the concept of the totalitarian, elitist, conspiratorial party. Marx created Marxism. Lenin created the Communist Party as the instrument of Marxism. It is true that Social Darwinism is also shared by National Socialism and Free Market fundamentalism. But the same poisonous philosophy had a left version, as well.
33 posted on 05/09/2004 10:27:40 AM PDT by Sam the Sham
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To: A. Pole
To be fascist all that is required is for the state to divide its citizens into a favored class and a disfavored class, each subject to a different set of laws. While in theory the single-class dogma of the Marxists might be opposed to this, in practice this is exactly what all socialists do. (Take, for example, political correctness over here. White heterosexual males are the disfavored class, and a completely different set of rules apply to that group than applies to any other group.)

The upshot is that there is nothing inconsistent between fascism and the practice of socialism/communism.
34 posted on 05/09/2004 10:51:40 AM PDT by thoughtomator (yesterday Kabul, today Baghdad, tomorrow Damascus)
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To: thoughtomator
To be fascist all that is required is for the state to divide its citizens into a favored class and a disfavored class, each subject to a different set of laws.

Not true at all. Fascism is something else and we might be moving this direction. You are talking about oligarchy which can be very different from Fascism. But yes, one could have mixture of Fascism and oligarchy - "the best of the two worlds" :(

35 posted on 05/09/2004 10:59:53 AM PDT by A. Pole (<SARCASM> The genocide of Albanians was stopped in its tracks before it began.</S>)
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To: A. Pole
What definition of fascism do you use? The one I mentioned above is the only one I have found that is consistent with the historical record, but, of course, it seems that there are a million and one definitions for fascism these days.
36 posted on 05/09/2004 11:02:46 AM PDT by thoughtomator (yesterday Kabul, today Baghdad, tomorrow Damascus)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Ill Duce
http://members.aol.com/registered/private/freep/traitor.jpg
37 posted on 05/09/2004 11:10:07 AM PDT by hosepipe
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To: staytrue
China is doing a lot more than that. They support proxies proliferating advanced weapons (e.g. they are still helping NK with nukes). They have a doctrine of asymmetric warfare, including use of proxies to get deniable distance from attacks. They claim control of an entire free country - Taiwan. None of which have anything to do with trying to protect themselves.
38 posted on 05/09/2004 2:02:04 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: Remember_Salamis
bump for later.
39 posted on 05/09/2004 2:06:54 PM PDT by Kudsman
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To: A. Pole
You can't go back
,,,With religion, patriotism, and idealism abandoned, there was little left to aspire to but the acquisition of things and power. There seemed only a choice between the arbitrary morality provided by dogma or the amorality provided by moral relativism and hedonism.
Consequently, some people now have become wistful about the dogmatic past. It may have been arbitrary and tyrannical, but at least there was a sense of something greater than ourselves; at least there was a ready-made code of do's and don'ts; at least there was order and hope. As long as one didn't challenge authority, there was a modicum of security and predictability...

But secular dogma is not workable either, how about freedom?
...One bit of snake oil that the elites have been selling is that they are the ones who are on the cutting edge, building a plan for a modern society. By implication we who advocate for freedom are to be regarded as old fashioned – holding on to nostalgic dreams of a dark past better forgotten. I am here to tell you that they are the reactionaries...
,,,I am here to tell you that freedom is the most forward-looking idea. Freedom is the most optimal human condition, not a planned Utopia. We are the ones who seek a bright future based upon the knowledge that freedom is a right we are all born with. Seeking the growth of freedom for the whole world is the true path to global peace and prosperity.
40 posted on 05/09/2004 2:17:42 PM PDT by walford (http://utopia-unmasked.us)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the forum. How unfortunate that WSJ articles are on the "nyet" list.
41 posted on 05/09/2004 3:26:49 PM PDT by Spirited
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To: A. Pole
Fascism allows private ownership of production and is based on national interest (as opposed to internationalism/globalism of Communism). Ownership is different but the control is still vested in the elite (in terms of government the central authority).

On a different level what good is ownership of an automobile if it is exclusively driven by my 18 yr old?

42 posted on 05/09/2004 8:10:11 PM PDT by Kudsman
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To: nonliberal

Different roads to the same goal.

43 posted on 05/10/2004 5:35:50 AM PDT by Republic_of_Secession.
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To: Republic_of_Secession.
Exactly. Eventually the economy is so regulated under fascism it would actually be seen as cheaper for the government to set up shop and begin competing with private enterprise. The government would then gain a monopoly and own the means of production. Communism ensues.

One mistake that most people make is claiming that fascism is a political system. It is an economic system.

44 posted on 05/10/2004 5:50:35 AM PDT by nonliberal (Graduate: Curtis E. LeMay School of International Relations)
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To: familyop
But the Chinese leaders rant, rave and threaten to blow us off of the face of the earth with nukes every few years.

I would like to see your sources on this.

45 posted on 05/10/2004 11:05:55 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: JasonC
they are still helping NK with nukes

I would like to see your source on this and debka does not count.

46 posted on 05/10/2004 11:07:26 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: staytrue
They shipped flourine stuff suitable for uranium processing in the last quarter of last year. There was a thread about it here on FR. I'll see if I can find it for you.
47 posted on 05/11/2004 12:45:53 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: staytrue
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/837274/posts

A bit older than I remembered and a slightly different chemical. Bill Gertz is not Debka.

48 posted on 05/11/2004 1:29:10 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: staytrue
"I would like to see your sources on this."

Is that an argument against my statement? If so, it's impolite, and it's a logical fallacy.

The incident of such threat against LA from a Chinese official in the 1990s was common knowledge after news reports all over the US. North Korea's threats are also relevent, given the joint maneuvers and demands of the two countries. With the threats, they share the same tactical error in negotiations.

If your demand is an argument and is prompted by any international political desire, the disussion on our part is irrelevant. I say that, because all of the countries around the Indian Ocean area and Pacific Rim are well aware of China's desires and very likely have more knowledge and expertise on the issues than we.
49 posted on 05/11/2004 1:58:59 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: staytrue
NewsMax story on the LA threat, via google cache -

Lt. Gen. Xiong Guangkai, deputy chief of the People's Liberation Army General Staff, will meet with senior Pentagon officials to discuss "military ties" and a possible visit to Beijing by Secretary of Defense William Cohen later this year, Reuters reported on Thursday. (See Chinese General to Visit US in Military Thaw)

Four years ago, when Sino-American relations unraveled after the PLA fired nuclear-capable missiles over Taiwan in a clear attempt to intimidate an American ally, General Xiong was hardly the model of diplomacy. Xiong, then the PLA's Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, began his nuclear saber rattling in a meeting with former US assistant Secretary of Defense Charles Freeman:

"Taiwan is a matter of vital interest to us," Xiong told Freeman. Then the general warned that the days when China could be intimidated by America's overwhelming military power were over. "You could do that then because you knew we couldn't retaliate. Now we can. In the end, you care a lot more about Los Angeles than you do about Taipei."

More recent threat reported from Hong Kong by UPI -

China's People's Liberation Army has outlined plans, including a nuclear conflict with the United States, to "liberate" Taiwan, Hong Kong's South China Morning Post newspaper reported Monday.

"The United States will not sacrifice 200 million Americans for 20 million Taiwanese and eventually they are going to back down," the publication said. ("China reveals nuclear war plans against U.S.," UPI, March 20, 2000)

CBS News report on China supplying Muslim nukes, revealed this year (started a long time ago) -

Investigators have found that nuclear weapons designs obtained by Libya through a Pakistani smuggling network originated in China, The Washington Post reported Sunday.

Documents turned over by Libya contain evidence of China's role in transferring nuclear technology to Pakistan in the early 1980s, the Post said, citing government officials and arms experts.

The Chinese designs were sold to Libya by a Pakistani-led trading network that is the target of an international investigation, the Post said. The report did not say whether Chinese officials were believed to have known of the transfer to Libya.

China's actions "were irresponsible and short-sighted, and raise questions about what else China provided to Pakistan's nuclear program," the newspaper quoted David Albright, a nuclear physicist and former U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq, as saying. "These documents also raise questions about whether Iran, North Korea and perhaps others received these documents from Pakistanis or their agents."

The Chinese Foreign Ministry did not respond Sunday to a request for comment on the report. China is Pakistan's main arms supplier and one of its closest military allies.

50 posted on 05/11/2004 2:37:46 AM PDT by JasonC
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