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A Nation Divided (Conservative Roundheads vs liberal Cavaliers who will win the war?)
The Seattle Times ^ | January 9, 2004 | Joel Kotkin [The Washington Post]

Posted on 05/09/2004 6:38:43 PM PDT by quidnunc

America 2004? Actually, no. This was the lamentable state of affairs in mid-17th century England, as it teetered on the brink of civil war. But there certainly is something disturbingly familiar about this description of a body politic dividing into two unbreachable camps.

Like England under Charles I, when the Cavaliers — the royalist supporters of the king — and the Roundheads — Puritan upstarts led by Oliver Cromwell — went at it for seven years of war, the United States today is becoming two nations. This is not merely the age-old split between income groups, as Sen. John Edwards kept suggesting in his unsuccessful campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination, but something even more fundamental — a struggle between contrasting and utterly incompatible worldviews.

Some describe the conflict as one between the "red" and the "blue" states, the right and the left, conservatives and liberals. But even though no one is about to behead our ruler and overthrow the government, as Cromwell's forces did when they captured Parliament in 1649, I find the parallel of the Cavaliers and the Roundheads to be the most apt. They grew to hate each other so much that they could no longer accommodate a common national vision. "I have heard foul language and desperate quarrelings even between old and entire friends," wrote one Englishman on the eve of conflict, and much the same could be said of us today.

The questions in our own uncivil war are: Is anyone winning? Which America most likely represents the future of our country?

The political division has grown wider in recent years. Now a clear geographic and cultural divide is emerging as well. Demographic studies show that Republicans and Democrats are less likely to live next door to each other, attend the same churches or subscribe to the same media.

America's Roundheads cluster in the South, the Plains and various parts of the West, while the Cavaliers inhabit the coasts, particularly the large metropolitan centers of the Northeast and Pacific Northwest. Each side has its own views, confirmed by its favored media. Fox TV, most of talk radio, the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Sean Hannity speak for the Roundheads, supporting President Bush and America's global mission. The mainstream media, the universities and the cultural establishment, including most of Hollywood, are the voices of the Cavaliers, whose elites, like many of England's Cavaliers and Charles I's French wife before them, are most concerned with winning over continental opinion and mimicking the European way of life.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: culturewar
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1 posted on 05/09/2004 6:38:46 PM PDT by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc
whose elites, like many of England's Cavaliers and Charles I's French wife before them, are most concerned with winning over continental opinion and mimicking the European way of life.

That's fairly accurate.
2 posted on 05/09/2004 6:43:01 PM PDT by visualops (Happy Mother's Day FReepers!!)
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To: quidnunc
And they say smoking marijuana is a victimless crime.
3 posted on 05/09/2004 6:45:54 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all)
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To: quidnunc
He's gotten it backwards. The leftists are much more like the Puritans, and the conservatives are much more like the Cavaliers. The leftists are intolerant spoilsports; they think of themselves as revolutionaries and progressives. Conservatives value honor and loyalty; they value tradition and the past.

Even though the Puritans were motivated by religious fervor, it's no coincidence that virtually all the academic leftists who study the seventeenth century favor the puritan revolutionaries. Similarly, they don't let Muslim religious fervor bother them, because they admire folks who ruthlessly blow up women and children in the name of a revolutionary cause.
4 posted on 05/09/2004 6:45:58 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: quidnunc
More overly dramatic gobbledygook.
5 posted on 05/09/2004 6:46:19 PM PDT by edeal
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To: visualops; quidnunc
If I hear this over-used analogy one more time I'm going to request a beheading, for whoever used it in the first place. I'm almost as sick of this conventional wisdom as I was of the repeated invocation of "gravitas" during the 2000 presidential race.
6 posted on 05/09/2004 6:47:08 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: quidnunc
I say again . . . Call out the militia, Mr. President. If you act now, we could round up the pinheads, avert civil war and win the day with a minimum number of casualties. If we wait until Hillary is in the White House, we're all dead.
7 posted on 05/09/2004 6:50:19 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: quidnunc
> But even though no one is about to behead our ruler and overthrow the government

I wish I could believe this, but the Clinton's don't give me any warm fuzzies on this.
8 posted on 05/09/2004 6:50:25 PM PDT by XEHRpa
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To: quidnunc
America's Roundheads cluster in the South, the Plains and various parts of the West, while the Cavaliers inhabit the coasts, particularly the large metropolitan centers of the Northeast and Pacific Northwest.

We have the hunting lands, guns, and farming lands. They have the public sewer systems and city dumps to eat from.
My guess is we'll do fine, and if they don't like us any more , they can starve to death.

9 posted on 05/09/2004 6:53:51 PM PDT by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: Texas Eagle
And they say smoking marijuana is a victimless crime.

LOL!! Good one.

10 posted on 05/09/2004 6:55:28 PM PDT by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: concerned about politics
Uh, what was the score in that last dust-up we had with you guys? Thought so. All gentle ribbing aside, this article has no more validity then Roy Texeira's prediction of an "Emerging Democratic majority."

If you want some real analysis, bone up on your Michael Barone. He's possibly the most thorough political analyst we have in this country.

11 posted on 05/09/2004 6:59:27 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: quidnunc
Cavaliers supported state religion and ecclesiastical courts.

Roundheads abolished ecclesiastical courts and allowed the jews to return to england and tolerated religious dissent.

marijuana anyone?

no victim no crime
12 posted on 05/09/2004 7:04:02 PM PDT by throopmanley (strike hold)
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To: quidnunc
Back in 1688, the English called this return to common sense their Glorious Revolution. May we look forward to our own.

The author has confused the Glorious Revolution of 1688 (the removal of Catholic James II and replacement with Protestant William & Mary) with the Restoration of 1660 (replacement of Roundhead Cromwell's descendants with Cavalier Charles II.)

In the long run, the Cavaliers won.

13 posted on 05/09/2004 7:04:49 PM PDT by Publius
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To: throopmanley
That was a great Bob Marley song! Wait a minute...
14 posted on 05/09/2004 7:06:39 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: quidnunc
'This happy state of affairs eventually resumed in 17th-century England after the bloodshed of the Civil War. Gradually, civility and a rational balance were restored to the political system, with results that turned England into the world's most important country and mother to this one. Back in 1688, the English called this return to common sense their Glorious Revolution. May we look forward to our own.'

May the next civil war drive the Godless Cavaliers from our land entirely, never to return.


15 posted on 05/09/2004 7:09:16 PM PDT by Viking2002
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
Uh, what was the score in that last dust-up we had with you guys? Thought so.

Sorry bud? You lost me on that. What dust-up?

I suppose the logic in this article is fine. I feel the conservatives would survive much better than the liberals in a war. We wouldn't sit around crying and blaming everyone else in an emergency. We'd fight to win.

16 posted on 05/09/2004 7:10:00 PM PDT by concerned about politics ( Liberals are still stuck at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy)
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To: Cicero
This was already posted before and your views were in the majority.
17 posted on 05/09/2004 7:10:15 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
Yeah, I sometimes wonder if they changed the lyrics to get it released in the US.
18 posted on 05/09/2004 7:10:55 PM PDT by throopmanley (strike hold)
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To: concerned about politics
I don't think it would actually come to a war. Most of the liberals would probably get sick of fighting and go back to playing hackey-sack. Afterwards, most of the conservatives would probably just go back to work as stock-brokers, farmers, etc. Though, that's just one man's opinion.
19 posted on 05/09/2004 7:13:14 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: LibWhacker
Call out the militia, Mr. President.

Posse Comitatus Act isn't very important to you is it?

If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.

20 posted on 05/09/2004 7:13:46 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: throopmanley
They might have. Imagine if they'd written a song about the English Civil War. It would probably have been more interesting then this article. Then again, there's always Ziggy Marley.
21 posted on 05/09/2004 7:15:18 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: quidnunc
Likening liberals to Anglican and Catholic "Royalists"???
What will they think of next?
22 posted on 05/09/2004 7:15:44 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
Uh, what was the score in that last dust-up we had with you guys?

The 'Late Unpleasantness' you mean? Better check the population numbers again. Along with the amount of firearms. Don't think we're outnumbered four to one this time ;)

23 posted on 05/09/2004 7:18:30 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: billbears
Yeah, but the surge in population is a by-product of people fleeing the Northeast. That's why you have guys like Johnny Isaakson for congressmen-who'll be a U.S. senator in a few months-and real pizzerias sprouting up for a change.
24 posted on 05/09/2004 7:22:48 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: quidnunc
I can confirm the geographic self-division, having moved from Seattle to Fargo, and happily.
25 posted on 05/09/2004 7:23:15 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Islam: Nothing BEER couldn't cure.)
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To: quidnunc
I posted this on an earlier thread and will repost that section now, the author of the article may never know just how right he is.

"I never thought I could have come to the cold hatred I am beginning to feel for some in this country. I think I now have some small understanding as to what made the American civil war one of the most bloody conflicts in history. It was the mutual hatred of two distinct peoples who no longer had a common middle ground, and we are now moving ever closer to that disaster once again."
26 posted on 05/09/2004 7:25:02 PM PDT by Ursus arctos horribilis ("It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" Emiliano Zapata 1879-1919)
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
And Elizabeth Dole and bagel shops. Ugh, don't remind me...

Although in all seriousness about this article, I can't see that in some way sooner or later, it will happen. Maybe not in our lifetimes but as the article already points out, the non violent divisions are already there. There will be a break point. Human nature

27 posted on 05/09/2004 7:26:38 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: quidnunc
But even though no one is about to behead our ruler and overthrow the government, as Cromwell's forces did when they captured Parliament in 1649, I find the parallel of the Cavaliers and the Roundheads to be the most apt.

I have to disagree with the author in that he's got the comparison backwards.

The political left has always had more in common with the Roundheads than the Cavs, and does now more than ever. Think about what a Puritan is: A loud obnoxious person from the northeast who thinks that he knows everything, thinks that everyone else is less "pure" and less intelligent than him, and spends his energies trying to tell everybody else how stupid they are while enforcing his dictates on how to live one's life upon them. Add the bitter hatred that they exhibit towards the sitting head of state and you've got a perfect description of none other than John F. Kerry.

28 posted on 05/09/2004 7:28:30 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: billbears
Has nothing to do with this. The militia is enshrined in the Constitution, serves at the pleasure of Congress under command of the President. As I understand it, the Army, Navy, Air Force, etc., are seperate entities and cannot be used for purposes of civilian law enforcement, per the PCA. The militia can, however, be used to quash seditious and rebellious groups acting within the country to cause it harm. Sorry, but imho, traitorous rats have risen to that level already.
29 posted on 05/09/2004 7:29:12 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Ursus arctos horribilis
Yeah, it's pretty much the exact same situation. Except that slavery's been abolished, there's no more contention between people who want to expand westward across the continental United States versus anti-expansionist citizens, and there aren't armed bands of militia with bitterly clashing ideologies roaming the countryside. Other than that, it's like 1861 all over again.
30 posted on 05/09/2004 7:29:51 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
Truly.

This article bothers me on many levels. The complete and utter twaddle which comprises the author's understanding of English history is just one of those levels.
31 posted on 05/09/2004 7:31:03 PM PDT by throopmanley (strike hold)
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To: quidnunc
Watch out. The "palaeos," the Menckenites, the neo-Confederates, the Birchites, and the Puritan-bashers will skin you alive for not seeing the Roundheads as the liberals and the Cavaliers as the conservatives!

"Palaeos" think religion is excellent if used to conserve the values of the ethnoculture, but they don't like people taking it too seriously.

32 posted on 05/09/2004 7:34:11 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Likening liberals to Anglican and Catholic "Royalists"??? What will they think of next?

Exactly. The fool that wrote this thing got his analogy so backwards it is laughable. The northeaster city dwelling liberals that he praises as cavaliers are in fact the descendants of puritans in both ideology (which ammounts to being loud, acting obnoxious, and constantly imposing oneself upon innocent and undesiring others) and blood.

33 posted on 05/09/2004 7:35:00 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Cicero; quidnunc
See? I told you!
34 posted on 05/09/2004 7:35:29 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
This article makes me think that some juniour editor said to an intern: "write a summary of the national political scene, throw in the words 'Cavalier' and 'Roundhead', oh by the way, the 'Cavaliers' were the good guys."

35 posted on 05/09/2004 7:35:59 PM PDT by throopmanley (strike hold)
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To: throopmanley
Exactly. And don't think that this genius has any better grasp on the fundamentals of American history either. If becoming a history professor didn't entail going through an extra six years of college, I swear I'd go for it. Then again, I'm a pretty indolent bastard, so maybe not.
36 posted on 05/09/2004 7:39:26 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: throopmanley
Cavaliers supported state religion and ecclesiastical courts.

Yes, and they were actually freethinkers, occultists, and had loose morals.

It's the eternal pattern: the "old" churches harbor the worldlings and compromisers (because their religion is basically utilitarian) and the newer Fundamentalist "heretics" are the ones who take their religion seriously . . . and then get bashed for it by the people who supposedly oppose liberal church/state separationism.

37 posted on 05/09/2004 7:39:54 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: throopmanley
marijuana anyone?

No thanks all it's ever done for me is make me puke...could be the reason I'm a recovering alcoholic. LOL
38 posted on 05/09/2004 7:40:45 PM PDT by glaseatr (God Bless, My Nephew, SGT Adam Estep 2nd Bat, 5th Cav reg died Thurday April 29, 2004 Baghdad Iraq.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
the Puritan-bashers will skin you alive for not seeing the Roundheads as the liberals and the Cavaliers as the conservatives!

The puritans were hypocritical freedom-hating heretics. They attempted to create a kingdom of God in this world and ended up only creating the very worst elements of a kingdom of man. That is why they resemble the liberals, only they supplant their ancestors' religious claims (and I do mean ancestors in both the literal and ideological sense) with the false idols of today - "diversity" and "multiculturalism" and "social justice" and "liberation theology."

You should also take note that the direct theological heir of New England puritanism today is the unitarian church - a fringe leftist denomination that emerged out of new england and is enamored with all of the aforementioned "causes."

39 posted on 05/09/2004 7:41:18 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Likening liberals to Anglican and Catholic "Royalists"??? What will they think of next?

Oh sure. Charles I and II were rightwingers and Cromwell was a proto-Marxist.

Did you know in Louisiana it's the Catholic Cajuns who chase the women and the "heretical" Protestants who are strait-laced and "uptight?"

40 posted on 05/09/2004 7:42:11 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: LibWhacker
It has everything to do with this. A group that chooses to separate itself peacefully from the union should not be attacked by the militia. As evidenced by my quote from Jefferson. Of course a good part of the 'militia' is over in a foreign land 'spreading democracy' and from the looks of it will be there for awhile
41 posted on 05/09/2004 7:44:03 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
truly a conundrum.

Quakers, presbyterians, anabaptists and jews all living in harmony but none of them could stand the catholics and unitarians.
42 posted on 05/09/2004 7:44:08 PM PDT by throopmanley (strike hold)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I don't know if I'd qualify precisely as a "Puritan-basher." I do kind of have a problem with Cromwell, seeing as how he would have probably had my head on pike lickety-split had I live in Ireland 4 centuries ago. The whole absolute dictator thing kind of bothers me a little too. Note sarcasm in tone of this post.
43 posted on 05/09/2004 7:45:38 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: GOPcapitalist
I have to disagree with the author in that he's got the comparison backwards.

The political left has always had more in common with the Roundheads than the Cavs, and does now more than ever. Think about what a Puritan is: A loud obnoxious person from the northeast who thinks that he knows everything, thinks that everyone else is less "pure" and less intelligent than him, and spends his energies trying to tell everybody else how stupid they are while enforcing his dictates on how to live one's life upon them. Add the bitter hatred that they exhibit towards the sitting head of state and you've got a perfect description of none other than John F. Kerry.

Yep, here come the Dixiecrats, y'all.

Funny, but this is exactly what the northeastern libs think of us down here in the Bible Belt. Oh, and it's down here that you find tiny denominations like the Primitive Baptists who still adhere to the Calvinist theology of Cromwell.

Has no one on this forum ever heard of a little thing called "prohibition" that was championed by the ancestors of today's heartland conservatives and opposed by big city liberals?

I suppose you would prefer FDR to Herbert Hoover, GOPCap.

44 posted on 05/09/2004 7:46:58 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: billbears
I don't want to re-hash the whole history of the Civil War (god knows we have enough mind-numbingly boring Ken Burns documentaries that serve exactly the same purpose), but who fired the first shots at Ft. Sumter. Hmmm?
45 posted on 05/09/2004 7:47:39 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; GOPcapitalist
It's a little easier to picture John Kerry & friends smashing stained glass windows and carrying off priests in stocks to prison...with crowds jeering.
46 posted on 05/09/2004 7:49:32 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: ItsonlikeDonkeyKong
I don't know if I'd qualify precisely as a "Puritan-basher." I do kind of have a problem with Cromwell, seeing as how he would have probably had my head on pike lickety-split had I live in Ireland 4 centuries ago. The whole absolute dictator thing kind of bothers me a little too. Note sarcasm in tone of this post.

Actually, you're right on those points.

47 posted on 05/09/2004 7:50:49 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Funny, but this is exactly what the northeastern libs think of us down here in the Bible Belt.

You wonder why they think of the Bible Belt like that? Take a hint: evangelical and fundamentalist christianity is NOT a derivative of New England puritanism (unitarianism, however, is).

48 posted on 05/09/2004 7:51:37 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
Think about what a Puritan is: A loud obnoxious person from the northeast who thinks that he knows everything, thinks that everyone else is less "pure" and less intelligent than him, and spends his energies trying to tell everybody else how stupid they are while enforcing his dictates on how to live one's life upon them.

You have no idea what you're talking about. None.

49 posted on 05/09/2004 7:52:01 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
As Gene Wilder would say: "Thannkkkk you SIR..."
50 posted on 05/09/2004 7:52:06 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid (Where did they get all those American Flags to burn? Is there a store or something over there?)
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