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U.S. Won't Use Air Tankers for Wildfires
The Guardian (U.K.) ^ | May 10, 2004 | IRA DREYFUSS

Posted on 05/10/2004 11:14:43 PM PDT by Stoat

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Readers wishing to learn more about firefighting air tankers may wish to go to Global Emergency Response

There's a wealth of information there about the U.S. Forest Service's continued lack of interest in aggressively addressing the wildland fire situation in the USA. The Russian government has for years had a standing offer of the use of the massive Ilyushin aircraft for testing and use in the US, free of charge, with the only request being fuel for the aircraft and temporary housing for it's crews...and the U.S. Forest Service has always declined. These mammoth jet air tanker s dwarf even the largest firefighting air tankers in the U.S. arsenal, and have been proven effective in huge wildfires in Russia, Greece, Australia and elsewhere.

Rep Dana Rohrabacher R-CA and Curt Weldon, R-Pa have worked hard in past times to help in these matters, as discussed here: "Could Russian Waterbomber Save California?"

but apparently it's all fallen apart at this point. If your home burns this year as a result of a wildfire, be sure to send a nice thank-you to the U.S. Forest service, who have done everything they can to block measures to pursue truly effective wildland firefighting methods.

1 posted on 05/10/2004 11:14:43 PM PDT by Stoat
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To: farmfriend
Ping
2 posted on 05/10/2004 11:21:12 PM PDT by tertiary01 (DEMS- the other surrender monkeys.)
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To: forester; Stoat
Why fight a fire when you can get paid overtime to stand and watch?
3 posted on 05/10/2004 11:24:21 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly stupid.)
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To: Stoat
Forest Service firefighting has become a circus.
4 posted on 05/10/2004 11:28:07 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly stupid.)
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To: Carry_Okie
Time to repost an oldie but a goody, lest we forget who's principally responsible for this mess.

Sierra Club Conservation Policies

Fire Management on Public Lands - Conservation Policies

Sierra Club Home Page   Environmental Update   My Backyard

 
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Sierra Club Policies Main
In This Section
Articles of Incorporation
Bylaws and Standing Rules
Purposes and Goals
Conservation Policies

Sierra Club Sierra Club Policies
Sierra Club Conservation Policies

Fire Management on Public Lands

  1. Fire is a natural, integral, and valuable component of many ecosystems. Fire management must be a part of the management of public lands. Areas managed for their natural values often benefit from recurring wildfires and may be harmed by a policy of fire suppression. Long-term suppression of small wildfires may build up conditions making occasional catastrophic conflagrations inevitable.

  2. Every fire should be monitored. Naturally occurring fires should be allowed to burn in areas where periodic burns are considered beneficial and where they can be expected to burn out before becoming catastrophic. Human-caused fires in such areas should be allowed to burn or be controlled on a case-by-case basis.

  3. In areas where fire would pose an unreasonable threat to property, human life or important biological communities, efforts should be made to reduce dangerous fuel accumulations through a program of planned ignitions. New human developments should be discouraged in areas of high fire risk.

  4. When fires do occur that pose an unacceptable threat to property or human life, prompt efforts should be undertaken of fire control.

  5. In areas included in or proposed for the National Wilderness Preservation System, fires should be managed primarily by the forces of nature. Minimal exceptions to this provision may occur where these areas contain ecosystems altered by previous fire suppression, or where they are too small or too close to human habitation to permit the ideal of natural fire regimes. Limited planned ignitions should be a management option only in those areas where there are dangerous fuel accumulations, with a resultant threat of catastrophic fires, or where they are needed to restore the natural ecosystem.

  6. Land managers should prepare comprehensive fire management plans. These plans should consider the role of natural fire, balancing the ecological benefits of wildfire against its potential threats to natural resources, to watersheds, and to significant scenic and recreational values of wildlands.

  7. Methods used to control or prevent fires are often more damaging to the land than fire. Fire control plans must implement minimum-impact fire suppression techniques appropriate to the specific area.

  8. Steps should be taken to rehabilitate damage caused by fighting fires. Land managers should rely on natural revegetation in parks, designated or proposed wilderness areas, and other protected lands. Where artificial revegetation is needed, a mixture of appropriate native species suited to the site should be used.

  9. The occurrence of a fire does not justify salvage logging or road building in areas that are otherwise inappropriate for timber harvesting. Salvage logging is not permitted in designated wilderness areas or National Park System units.

Adopted by the Board of Directors, March 17-19, 1989


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5 posted on 05/10/2004 11:31:28 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly stupid.)
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To: tertiary01
Perhaps not a bad idea.
6 posted on 05/10/2004 11:33:31 PM PDT by DryFly
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To: Stoat
``It was apparent that no effective mechanism currently exists to ensure the continuing airworthinesss of these firefighting aircraft,'' the report said.

That being the case they have decided wisely.

Contiued airworthiness MUST be maintained, lest the aircraft be patched together with auto parts and radio shack components and crews would be flying on more "prayer" than "wing".

7 posted on 05/10/2004 11:45:46 PM PDT by EGPWS
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To: EGPWS
I guess it's getting to be like everything else... if we can't have 100% perfection, 100% of the time then we won't do it at all.
8 posted on 05/10/2004 11:50:15 PM PDT by tertiary01 (DEMS- the other surrender monkeys.)
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To: EGPWS
Of course you're right, but the point here is that it's been the negligence of the U.S. Forest service throughout the past several decades that has allowed this situation to come to pass.
Naturally, nobody here is advocating the use of unsafe aircraft. The point here is that a history of negligence, poor planning, and buckling under the pressure of radical environmentalist demands has created this unacceptable situation, where we are now even more under-served than before.
9 posted on 05/10/2004 11:50:33 PM PDT by Stoat
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To: Stoat
I look out my office window everyday at a mountain range here in SoCal with square miles of dead fir trees. Enviroweenies wouldn't let the diseased trees be cut down. Now we have another fire season, another year of drought and I pray to God we don't have the another horror like last year.

Red

10 posted on 05/10/2004 11:54:21 PM PDT by Conservative4Ever (EVIL.......thy name is Hillary)
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To: Carry_Okie
Thanks so much for your great links! It's very much appreciated. :-)

I don't think that it would be inappropriate to remind people of the "contributions" from the Sierra Club and other similar organizations when the wildfires occur...
11 posted on 05/11/2004 12:01:41 AM PDT by Stoat
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To: EGPWS
One would think the insurance companies getting "burned" by these wildfires would be tickled to pitch in to keep these craft in good shape. And they might get good advertising that way... here comes the Allstate plane, here comes the Mutual of Omaha....
12 posted on 05/11/2004 12:09:05 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Conservative4Ever
I agree with your sentiments, but I would suggest that prayer may not be enough in this case.
So many wildfires are set by people, just for a thrill or some other sick reason, that we can, unfortunately, be fairly well assured that it WILL happen again this year.

A few things to consider:
1. Mandatory death penalties for arsonists who set fires resulting in the death of a human.

2. Mandatory life sentences for other convicted arsonists.

3. A class-action suit against the U.S. Forest service for extreme negligence

4. Criminal charges for gross negligence and the willful endangerment of life for the directors of the U.S. Forest Service.

Anyone else care to add to the list? :-)
13 posted on 05/11/2004 12:10:11 AM PDT by Stoat
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To: Stoat
The point here is that a history of negligence, poor planning, and buckling under the pressure of radical environmentalist demands has created this unacceptable situation, where we are now even more under-served than before.

Well said, and I agree whole heartedly.

However, the use of unsafe, or not proved safe aircraft is not a precedence that is conducive to alleviating the issues at hand, in all reality it would just perpetuate this sorry scenario.

I apologize if I have veered from the focus of the thread for if I have it has been unintentional.

14 posted on 05/11/2004 12:14:35 AM PDT by EGPWS
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To: Carry_Okie
Why risk your life for a burning tree in an aging fleet of crap-ass planes? Wildland firefighters do not get paid anything to risk their lives for a whole bunch of ingrates that hold contempt for the job.
15 posted on 05/11/2004 12:16:31 AM PDT by Porterville (Kerry has no gravitas!!!)
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To: Carry_Okie
I'm not sure how many of the last year's arsonists were actually terrorist elements. What is certain is that this announcement will bring the arsonists of every stripe a feeling of empowerment. They can light fires with the certainty that there is insufficient ability to put them out.

There are parties within Homeland Security that are inclined to believe that a campaign of massive wildfires in the west is part of the jihadi agenda.

16 posted on 05/11/2004 12:23:30 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: EGPWS
No apologies necessary :-) The resistance to even testing the Ilyushin waterbombers here in the US appears to be entirely political, as they are well-proven in many other countries. The IL-76 is not a new aircraft design by any means, and has been used as a waterbomber for decades. The U.S. Forest service, when pressed on this issue in times past, has claimed that the mountainous regions of many wildland areas in the US would be unsuitable for the planes but that's simply not true. They have been used extensively in mountainous regions in Russia and Greece. The USFS is blocking the use of these aircraft based upon reasons that they're not stating, because their stated reasons are obviously and demonstrably invalid. While the USFS plays politics, people's homes burn and lives are lost...there's simply no excuse for this profound negligence that they are perpetrating.
17 posted on 05/11/2004 12:25:27 AM PDT by Stoat
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To: Porterville
Wildland firefighters do not get paid anything to risk their lives for a whole bunch of ingrates that hold contempt for the job.

Good observation. After the wildfires in San Diego were brought under control, a special ceremony was arranged to thank the firefighters. It was poorly attended.

18 posted on 05/11/2004 12:27:10 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin
Excellent point...to do massive damage, a terrorist wouldn't even need to smuggle dirty bomb components across the Mexican border, he would only need to bring a matchbook to one of our National Parks, which have been allowed to become terribly overgrown with underbrush and deadwood thanks to the policies put forth by shrill and hysterical, anti-American "environmental" groups.

19 posted on 05/11/2004 12:31:21 AM PDT by Stoat
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To: Porterville
Many wildland firefighters are minimum-security convicts, and this policy of using such people doesn't help the public's perception of the fire service.

The other firefighters who are there because they WANT to be, not because they HAVE to be, are hamstrung not only by this NFS policy of using convict labor but also in terms of the profound lack of support in crucial areas, such as the proper maintenance of firefighting aircraft.

I predict, sadly, that 2004 will be a particularly bad fire season.
20 posted on 05/11/2004 12:37:55 AM PDT by Stoat
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To: Stoat
The convicts stay in their camp while the other wildland firefighters are assigned their area. The work is still hard and isn't anything I would want to do for a long period of time.. It is very tough and should be respected. Unfortunately, their is a class of people in this country who haven't slung a hoe or worked a blister on their pinky who look down on rescue personnel... of all things... but, they have money, and little brains, easy sheep... helps the economy go round.
21 posted on 05/11/2004 12:50:54 AM PDT by Porterville (Kerry has no gravitas!!!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
That's one of the best ideas I've seen on FR in about a year. Excellent thinking!
22 posted on 05/11/2004 4:44:59 AM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: Stoat
The Martin Mars was retired a couple of years ago in Canada.

Firefighting certainly wasn't what Glenn L. Martin had in mind for the design of the Martin Mars. Originally conceived as a bomber for long range missions and patrols, the production aircraft were redesigned and classified for long-range general transport because of the demonstrated heavy-lift capability of the prototype. The "Big Four", as they were affectionately known, established airlift and endurance records which remain valid today and they logged some 87,000 accident-free hours before being retired by the USN and sold to Flying Tankers. Mr. Martin would be very pleased to know his original intention of the Mars in a bomber role came to pass in their second career as waterbombers.

Philippine Mars
White Tail - side drop system
Canadian Registration C-FLYK
S/N 76820
Red Tail - bottom drop system
Canadian Registration C-FLYL
S/N 76823

During the fire season, the aircraft are kept in a state of readiness to meet the existing fire hazard conditions. They can be in the air in ten minutes and, based on historical data, each can make a drop every fifteen minutes. Working in tandem, this equates to 7,200 US gallons (27,276 litres) every seven minutes and each drop can cover an area of up to 4 acres (1.6 hectares). It has often been said that the Mars, with a 60,000 pound (27,216 kilogram) payload of foam, is like "hand-grenades or horseshoes - close is good enough" but such is not the case. The highly experienced Mars pilots, working closely with the fire boss, deliver the water or foam right where it is needed.

Each Mars carries 600 US gallons (2,270 litres) of foam concentrate - enough for 21 drops of a 0.4% solution which is the standard used although it may be decided to use more or less foam as dictated by the Fire Boss.

23 posted on 05/11/2004 5:02:26 AM PDT by OrioleFan (Republicans believe every day is July 4th, DemocRATs believe every day is April 15th. - Reagan)
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To: Stoat
Your list appeals to me emotionally, but I would alter #3 and #4 ever so slightly.

Environmental groups have been suing the various agencies responsible for public land management for decades. As a result, the scarce financial resources have been diverted into the legal defense effort and away from the forests where they're most needed. I'd sue the enviro groups for tying the hands of USFS/BLM/et al and preventing them from doing their job.

24 posted on 05/11/2004 5:11:42 AM PDT by Lil'freeper (The enemy's gate is down!)
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To: Carry_Okie
Didnt the Russians just develope a humongous air tanker that we were thinking of buying some time ago?
25 posted on 05/11/2004 5:48:44 AM PDT by Husker24
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To: DryFly
My wife works for the TV station that caught that video. It was a busy day after that as just about every station across the country called asking for a copy of the video.
26 posted on 05/11/2004 6:05:17 AM PDT by randog (Everything works great 'til the current flows.)
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To: Stoat
I think we need a huge fleet of these:
(Ignore the fact that they're 'canadian')

Air Power
Canadair CL-215/415 "Super Scooper"

The Canadair CL-215 was the first aircraft ever designed specifically for Water Bombing. While the PBY Canso was modified from it’s role as a military submarine patrol aircraft, the CL-215 was created as an actual Water Bomber.

After departing the airport, the CL-215 crew of two heads directly for a suitable ‘scooping’ lake as close to the forest fire as possible. An inspection run is made on the lake to insure that it is of suitable length and has no obstructions which could hamper the safety of the aircraft and flight crew. The aircraft then touches down on the lake and ‘scoops’ 12000 lbs of water into the internal tanks within ten seconds. At this point the water pickup probes are retracted and the aircraft leaps into the air, heading towards the fire. The Air Attack Officer on board the birddog aircraft instructs the water bomber flight crew where and how to drop the load. He may ask that the crew inject a harmless soap-like solution into the water tanks through an onboard computer. This will give the water a foam-like consistency to help increase it’s holding time at the fire. As there are two water tanks onboard the aircraft, both loads of water may either be dropped together or separately as the fire conditions dictate.

With the ability to scoop in close proximity to the fire, the CL-215 is able to deliver an enormous amount of water within a very short time. This provides excellent Initial Attack and Sustained Action support for ground crews on the fire line.

Specifications

Primary Function:  water bomber
Length:                     65'
Wingspan                   93' 11"
Speed:                      236 mph
Ceiling:                     20,000 feet
Range:                      1,513 miles
Year Deployed:           1994







All photos Copyright of their respective websites
27 posted on 05/11/2004 6:07:03 AM PDT by Johnny Gage (God Bless our Firefighters, our Police, our EMS responders, and our Veterans)
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To: Stoat
"...Anyone else care to add to the list? :-)..."

Yes.
5. Force the envirnazis to fight the fires along side of the regular firefighters. Since they are the ones who prevent the clearing of dead trees that adds fuel to the fires, maybe they should reap the "rewards" of their efforts.

I do hope this isn't a bad fire season. The people living in the potential paths don't need it.
28 posted on 05/11/2004 6:17:11 AM PDT by NCC-1701 (Support Mel Gibson and "The Passion of the Christ")
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To: Stoat
I took a summer position with the USFS in MT to fight fires. It was the best experience to date. Dozers and weather were the only real defense to a raging fire. We just tried to contain the fires until we got a thunderstorm or we waited for autumn. Small fires we could control and put out using hand tools and water if it was close enough to a supply.

BTW, has anybody read about how terrorists have planned to use forest fire in populated areas as a weapon? With all of the recent fires and fires of last year and the year before, can there be a connection?
29 posted on 05/11/2004 6:18:54 AM PDT by Final Authority
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To: Stoat; Porterville
The USFS is blocking the use of these aircraft based upon reasons that they're not stating, because their stated reasons are obviously and demonstrably invalid.

Weyerhaeuser gets more of their logs from outside the country than in the US, Canada, China, New Zealand... in part because of the way they whacked the Olympic Peninsula. For example, they manage over five million acres in the US, but 27,000,000 in Canada. They make more money in the US selling mortgages than they do logging forests. They don't want prices depressed by competition from the National Forests unless they can get the good stuff from virgin forest stands.

You may have observed that biomass plants can't get the chips to run even though there's enough excess fuel out there to provide for the domestic electrical needs of 140 million Americans. If you knew who funds the Natural Resources Defense Council, you'd understand why there's no thinning. There's money to be made preventing logging, and the people who fund the RICOnuts don't give a damn about the forest.

Yes, it's political. Most people don't have a clue how it really works.

30 posted on 05/11/2004 7:29:01 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: Porterville; Stoat
Wildland firefighters do not get paid anything to risk their lives for a whole bunch of ingrates that hold contempt for the job.

I have no gratitude for an organization that has destroyed forest health by caving in to a corrupt ideology. As far as I am concerned we could do a better of forest management without National Forests.

I live in a forest. I don't want or need firefighters here. If there is a fire here, I'll sit and watch. I thin my forest, something the USFS won't allow. I have little more than contrmpt for a forest management organization that spends 40% of its budget on lawsuits in which they are as complicit as the NGOs and staffed with a gang of greenies who've done more to rob landowners than anything else.

Did you read the account of the Winter Fire? I stand by the comment. It's become a circus. The local CDF batallion chief here does more work for his union than anything else. He could be working with the greenies teaching them how important it is to thin.

Upon the observation that this was directed at me, I'm also going to add a response to this comment of yours:

Unfortunately, their is a class of people in this country who haven't slung a hoe or worked a blister on their pinky who look down on rescue personnel... of all things... but, they have money, and little brains, easy sheep... helps the economy go round.

I climb. I top. I drag piles and burn by hand. I spent $10,000 on drainage this year stacking over sixty tons of rock by hand and packing seventy yards of material with a shovel and a Wacker on a 100% slope. I spent 500 hours this year just weeding. Do you do work like that? My property is a model of biodiversity and forest management with over 260 species of plants alone.

The Forest Service that gave us Smokey the Bear is long gone, but in large part responsible for this mess. They overplanted in anticipation of fat budgets for precommercial thinning and when that didn't materialize left it to burn without educating the public on what must be done. Most of those who knew better chose retirement instead of risking their jobs in a political battle. They allowed decent forests to become dead wastelands of twigs and you know what happens after it burns. However arduous and dangerous has been the job of firefitghing over the years, it's not what it was. Firefighting has become a gravy train for those who have had their livelihoods in the forest robbed by a gang of ideological thugs and financial interests. Yes I'm bitter about it, because it's so unnecessary and stupid, but the Forest Service is just as responsible as the greens for the 190 million acres now at risk.

31 posted on 05/11/2004 7:53:02 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: Husker24
Didnt the Russians just develope a humongous air tanker that we were thinking of buying some time ago?

Stoat gave a good account of that in Post #17.

32 posted on 05/11/2004 7:55:01 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: Stoat
I agree with your list. Also might I add, homeowners and people living in rural areas. Clear firebreaks if possible around your house. Plant native flora where possible. Clear/cut grass and brush around property. Trim trees back so they don't touch the house. Non-flammable roofing materials. This isn't rocket science, just common sense. Another season is upon us. Gotta keep vigilant. I keep face masks in the house and in my car along with leather work gloves.

Red

33 posted on 05/11/2004 9:31:49 AM PDT by Conservative4Ever (EVIL.......thy name is Hillary)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
What a great idea!!! Good thinking.

Red

34 posted on 05/11/2004 9:35:09 AM PDT by Conservative4Ever (EVIL.......thy name is Hillary)
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To: Husker24
No but these guys did. I don't think it will work too well. Most air tanker have to fly real slow to drop and I do not think this will be able to go to the really hard places in the Mountains where most fires are. Big A$$ Tanker
35 posted on 05/11/2004 9:50:10 AM PDT by Veloxherc (To go up pull back, to go down pull back all the way.)
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To: Stoat
2a. Mandatory life sentences for all leaders of environmental groups and congressional officals for their activities which have made it nearly impossible for the Forest Service to prevent damage and deaths from massive forest fires, taxing both their resources and their ability to do so.



36 posted on 05/11/2004 10:17:22 AM PDT by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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To: Carry_Okie
When we smell smoke, others smell money.
37 posted on 05/11/2004 10:20:37 AM PDT by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: Carry_Okie
Look, the smoke is forming dollar signs in the sky.
38 posted on 05/11/2004 10:21:39 AM PDT by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: Stoat
The government also can activate eight military C130s equipped to carry water, he said.

Better check with DOD first. These 8 military C-130's are Air National Guard. Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom are higher priority than western forest fires -- unless they just activate us all for both.

39 posted on 05/11/2004 10:43:34 AM PDT by gcraig
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To: Carry_Okie
I don't want or need firefighters here... you just jinxed yourself... congrats.
40 posted on 05/11/2004 10:54:56 AM PDT by Porterville (Kerry has no gravitas!!!)
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To: Porterville
you just jinxed yourself... congrats.

BS. Like you have a clue what my situation is. I've done more to save firefighters' lives than they'll ever do for mine. This place is cleared, fully roaded, and has standpipes all over it. I even set up an evac site for them. This is the one refugium with a registered helicopter landing site for over three miles.

If landowners did their jobs because insurance rates nailed them if they didn't and we got the governmint out of forest management there would be minimal need for firefighting. This whole mess is a political creation.

41 posted on 05/11/2004 11:11:23 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: Carry_Okie
I will read your article link. This is really hitting close to home for me this year...living in the woods instead of farmland and my son has a wonderful new girlfriend who works for the Forest Service as a firefighter. She is so very dismayed by the bureaucrats and eco freaks. She refers to the gun carrying rangers as "Twig pigs".

The rain has stopped for a bit, so I'm heading out to clear out some brush.
42 posted on 05/11/2004 11:38:36 AM PDT by AuntB (Law Schools & Journalism schools are America's Madrassas.(aculeus) Jamie Gorelick is proof!)
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To: tertiary01
It's not a matter of 100% perfection, it's a matter of not sending up death traps. When these planes crash they're full of fuel, fuel that makes more fire, and they have an unfortunate tendency of not falling in the already burned area. What good are fire fighting airplanes that just start another fire? The big planes are too old and too beat up, fire fighting is really hard on these planes, eventually they had to be retired, better to do it now than after more crashes which we know WILL happen.
43 posted on 05/11/2004 11:46:44 AM PDT by discostu (Brick urgently required, must be thick and well kept)
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To: Stoat
I was just about to make the point about the Russian aircraft offer. I can only surmise from the governments actions that they're not really serious about containing wildfires. Our government doesn't seem to much use for anything but collecting taxes.
44 posted on 05/11/2004 11:53:26 AM PDT by dljordan
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To: Stoat
An air tanker sounds like a good use of UAV technology....
45 posted on 05/11/2004 1:49:19 PM PDT by lmailbvmbipfwedu
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To: Stoat
There's actually a few things we can do to fight wildfires:

1. Make a huge buy of Canadair CL-415 water bombers for the US Forest Service, maybe as many as 100-125 planes. The CL-415 is probably one of the best of its kind, designed specifically for the rigors of low-level flying needed for water bombing.

2. Modify a number of rebuilt C-130E/H Hercules planes to drop containers loaded with water that looks like a dodecahedron. Popular Mechanics mentioned idea this late in 2003 and they said this allows for more wider area coverage of flame-retarding water and also allow the drop plane to fly higher, too.

3. Fill artillery shells and/or short-range bombardment rockets with liquid nitrogen and fire them directly into the fire. When the shell or rocket filled with liquid nitrogen explodes in the fire, the combination of sudden extreme cold and the quick removal of oxygen to feed the flame at the impact point will quickly put out the fire. And unlike conventional fire retardants, liquid nitrogen will quickly evaporate away and not become an environmental hazard. I remember at the end of Operation Desert Storm they actually tried it out and it did work to put out the oil well fires.

46 posted on 05/11/2004 2:08:47 PM PDT by RayChuang88
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To: snopercod; joanie-f
"The planes were reactivated after a new inspection program was developed at the Energy Department's Sandia National Laboratory in Albuquerque, N.M., but the NTSB said in its report last month that maintenance and inspection programs were still inadequate."

Well, you might conclude, that, when your muffler falls off the car, and you go to the telephone company to fix it, that "maintenance and inspection programs were still inadequate."

You see how easy it is, at times, to spot the "39%" in the Bush [still running 39% of the Clinton] Administration?

It is on this note, that I take my leave.

See you in a couple months.

47 posted on 05/11/2004 2:39:17 PM PDT by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: Stoat
Those c-130's were never designed to air-drop loads like that in wildfire updrafts. In the late 60's many of those planes had special splices installed over the wing strut connections over the fuselage, exactly where it broke off of the tanker. Vietnam had short airstrips and they were rough. The C-130's occaisionally pulled 9-10 G's on landing and their wings flopped liked goony birds. You could see what was going on. When they x-rayed them in Japan they found 1/4-1/2 inch breaks in the Main wing spars. We had one plane per month go to Japan for the "Special fix". Anyone with a brain knew what was happening. None of those poor souls contracting with those old planes knew about the reports. They probably weren't told about them when they bought the planes. I wonder haw many of them had the "Special Fix" done to them?
48 posted on 05/11/2004 3:38:27 PM PDT by hybrid007
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To: First_Salute
God speed.
49 posted on 05/11/2004 5:20:42 PM PDT by snopercod (I used to be disgusted. Then I became amused. Now I'm disgusted again.)
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To: EGPWS
My son, who is a Helitack wildland fire fighter for the USFS out of Ramona,Ca., has been informed that their group will be doing the "heavy lifting" in the San Diego area this year because of the Airtanker groundings. I was allowed to climb aboard one of those flying dinosaurs last year when we visited his airbase after the Cedar fire in October. Talk about being held together with bailing wire! That DC4 was practically shedding rivets as we stood there.
50 posted on 05/12/2004 12:21:06 AM PDT by cartoonistx
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