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Sad end to boy/girl life Subject of gender experiment
Winnepeg Sun ^ | May 12, 2004 | Katie Chalmers

Posted on 05/12/2004 8:13:22 AM PDT by billorites

Winnipeg man who was born a boy but raised as a girl in a famous nurture-versus-nature experiment has died at the age of 38. David Reimer, who shared his story in the pages of a book and on the TV show Oprah, took his own life last Tuesday.

His mother, Janet Reimer, said she believes her son would still be here today had it not been for the devastating gender study that led to much emotional hardship.

"He managed to have so much courage," Janet told The Sun yesterday. "I think he felt he had no options. It just kept building up and building up."

After a botched circumcision as a toddler, David became the subject of an experiment dubbed the John/Joan case in the '60s and '70s.

Janet said she still harbours anger toward a Baltimore doctor who convinced her and her husband, Ron, to give female hormones to their son and raise him as a daughter, Brenda. Kids were cruel to Brenda growing up in Winnipeg.

"They wouldn't let him use the boys' washroom or the girls. He had to go in the back alley," Janet recalled.

MATCHED CONTROL SUBJECT

This gender transformation was widely reported as a success and proof that children are not by nature feminine or masculine but through nurture are socialized to become girls or boys. David's identical twin brother, Brian, offered researchers a matched control subject.

But when David discovered the truth about his past during his teenage years, he rebelled and resumed his male identity, eventually marrying and becoming a stepfather to three children.

In 2000, author John Colapinto wrote As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl, providing David an opportunity to tell the real story. It was difficult but David wanted to save other children from a similar fate, his mother said.

MEDIA SWIRL

While he had spoken anonymously in the past, David was launched into a media swirl after Colapinto's book was published, starting with an appearance on Oprah in February 2000.

"I thought the Reimers were just the most dignified, fantastic people on that program," Colapinto told The Sun at the time.

"I think in a way these wonderful working-class people from Winnipeg just kind of stepped onto the world stage on Oprah and were a lesson to us all in dignity and survival and openness and courage."

David recently slumped into a depression after losing his job and separating from his wife.

He was also still grieving the death of his twin brother two years earlier, their mother said. A cause of death was never confirmed but Janet suspects it might have been an overdose of medication which Brian required to treat schizophrenia.

Daily, David would visit his brother's grave, placing fresh flowers and pulling weeds to keep it tidy.

Just last week, David told his parents that things would get better soon but they never imagined he was planning to commit suicide.

Janet said she'll remember her son as "the most generous, loving soul that ever lived."

"He liked music. He liked jokes. He was a very funny guy," said Janet, who spent Mother's Day grieving the loss of her son. "He was so generous. He gave all he had."

The funeral is today at 2 p.m. at Klassen Funeral Chapel.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: suicide

1 posted on 05/12/2004 8:13:22 AM PDT by billorites
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To: billorites
This seems highly unethical and indeed a denial of fundamental human rights.
2 posted on 05/12/2004 8:15:26 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Unam Sanctam
I agree. There was an article recently (from the APA?) about something similar -- saying that people born looking either/or generally identify as male or female depending on their chromosomes (big surprise), not on how their parents decided to raise them.
3 posted on 05/12/2004 8:18:37 AM PDT by AdrianneTruett
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To: Unam Sanctam
Oh, but don't you know, the elites know better than some working class folks do.

Mad scientists, as my mother would have said.
4 posted on 05/12/2004 8:19:05 AM PDT by jocon307 (The dems don't get it, the American people do.)
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To: billorites
Pity the foolish parents for trusting in the word of a psychotic doctor.

We still see the same insanity written into the dogma of political correctness today. You can't change a person's sex with a medical operation. You can only mutilate him. Transgender operations are a form of medical malpractice and should be treated as such.
5 posted on 05/12/2004 8:19:37 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: billorites
Janet said she still harbours anger toward a Baltimore doctor who convinced her and her husband, Ron, to give female hormones to their son and raise him as a daughter, Brenda.
 
Truly the saddest part of this story is that it seems like David went to his grave without hunting down this doctor like a dog and then slowly hacking him to death with a rusty, serrated fish knife.
Owl_Eagle

”Guns Before Butter.”

6 posted on 05/12/2004 8:19:42 AM PDT by Owl_Eagle (Kill my boss?!? Do I dare live out the American dream? » Homer Simpson)
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To: billorites
Read the Colapinto book. The doctor who "treated" this poor child was, in my opinion, a pervert and a criminal. It's no wonder the twin brother ended up schizophrenic, after the "therapy" this "doctor" put both the children through. The doctor saw this as an opportunity to advance the radical homosexual theory that "gender is a social construct," of which he was a chief proponent. He destroyed these two children in the process, and who knows how many more. He should be in jail.
7 posted on 05/12/2004 8:21:20 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: lady lawyer
John Money, Ph.D.

John Money was at the center of the University based Gender Identity Clinic phenomena of the 1960’s. His research interests spanned the entire field of sexology, from gender identity, sexual orientation, to paraphilias. Based at John Hopkins Medical Center, Money heavily influenced the protocols used to treat both intersex and transsexuality. Money espoused the position that gender identity flowed from early childhood experiences and that children could be assigned either gender without regard to any of the other sex indicators. This lead to treating intersexed children with early surgery so as to confirm in the child’s family’s minds the assigned sex to avoid confusing messages as the child matured.

Money’s hypothesis and recommendations lead directly to the tragedy and “experiment of opportunity” of John Theissen, a man who’s penis was accidentally destroyed during circumcision. Mr. Thessien was later surgically reassigned as female. His parents then proceeded to raise him as their daughter, while his identical twin brother served as “control.” When the children we several years old the clinics declared that the reassigned child was accepting “her” gender as a girl. The case became known as that of John/Joan. Money published this case as proof of his hypothesis. Unfortunately, John Theissen as a teen refused to continue the program, insisting that he was a boy... he grew to be a man, obtained phalloplasty, married, and is raising three children from his wife’s prior relationships. It can be said that his is a case of surgically created transsexuality, as his personal gender identity was at odds with his sex assignment as an infant. Mr. Theissen’s story was published in Rolling Stone magazine in the mid ’90s after a scientic paper was published by Milton Diamond, a proponent of pre- and neonatal hormonal brain sex differentiation.

The practice of surgical sex assignment of infants has been seriously questioned by individuals and organizations such as the Intersex Society of North America

8 posted on 05/12/2004 8:24:29 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: lady lawyer
I posted a thread about this tragic case yesterday, and here is a different article from The Guardian, which goes into more detail about what that psycho did to those kids. I agree with you : This case is primarily about stupid theories of masulinity and femininity as entirely social constructs, and the toll those theories took on at least two innocent lives:

Being Brenda

They were meant to show that gender was determined by nurture, not nature - one identical twin raised as a boy and the other brought up as a girl after a botched circumcision. But two years ago Brian Reimer killed himself, and last week David - formerly Brenda - took his life too. Oliver Burkeman and Gary Younge unravel the tragic story of Dr Money's sex experiment

Oliver Burkeman and Gary Younge

Wednesday May 12, 2004

The Guardian

Until a few years ago, the name David Reimer meant little to those outside his immediate circle, and by the time he killed himself last Tuesday in unknown circumstances in his hometown of Winnipeg, it was already slipping back towards obscurity - a name belonging to nobody more remarkable than a local odd-job man, a 38-year-old former slaughterhouse worker who was separated from his wife, and enjoyed shopping at flea markets and tinkering with his car. In fact, to anyone taking an interest in the development of psychology in the 1970s and 1980s, Reimer's life story would have long been infamous, but also pseudonymous. Going by the name "John", and subsequently "Joan", David Reimer had been an unwitting guinea-pig - along with his identical twin brother Brian - in a medical experiment at first celebrated, then notorious. Masterminded by a prominent Baltimore physician, John Money, it was an attempt to settle, once and for all, the fraught nature-versus-nurture debate: to prove that gender was so fluid that by a mere change in childrearing practice, plus a little surgery, a boy could be turned into a girl, while his twin developed as a male.

It would split the world of sexual psychology in two. And after 12 years of traumatising treatment, followed by a further two decades spent attempting to repair the damage, it would drive David Reimer to his death."It was like brainwashing," Reimer once said, having resumed his male identity after a childhood spent as Brenda. "I'd give just about anything to go to a hypnotist to black out my whole past. Because it's torture. What they did to you in the body is sometimes not near as bad as what they did to you in the mind."

The tragedy has its roots in what seemed like a routine trip to hospital in 1966 for Janet and Ron Reimer and their twin baby boys, Bruce and Brian. Doctors had recommended circumcision, a practice still routine in much of north America, but Bruce's operation went distressingly wrong. Like almost every detail of the story, what actually happened is still fiercely disputed but what is clear is that the electric cauterising machine being used by doctors caused burning to his penis so severe as to render the organ unrescuable.

Reconstructive genital surgery was still rudimentary, and medical experts could offer only pessimism. So when the despairing parents happened to catch a television show, some months later, on which John Money was propounding his radical new theories about gender formation, it seemed to offer a lifeline. "He was saying that it could be that babies are born neutral, and you could change their gender," Janet Reimer later told John Colapinto, author of a book on the experiment entitled As Nature Made Him.

In photographs taken at the time, Money - then, as now, affiliated to Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland - looks like a parody of a progressive "sexologist", turtlenecked and moustachioed, and his writings did nothing to dispel that impression. Raised in a conservative religious family in New Zealand, he had rebelled and become a self-described "missionary of sex", revelling in shocked responses to his tireless advocacy of open marriages and - a particular favourite - bisexual group sex.

At their most extreme, Money's public statements had appeared to endorse, or at least not to condemn, incest and paedophilia, but there was no hint of that in the television show Janet and Ron Reimer saw. They wrote to him, and he wrote swiftly back. He was confident, he said, that Bruce could be successfully raised as a girl. From an experimental perspective, Brian Reimer would provide the perfect control: his genetic inheritance was identical to Bruce's. The only difference was that one would be nurtured as a girl, and the other as a boy.

Money's emphasis on nurture over nature played well with the progressive spirit of the times, and especially with the women's movement, its proponents eager to establish that women's traditional social roles were not biologically pre-ordained. "Postwar, in any case, there was a move away from people being innately, biologically, inherently anything," says Lynne Segal, professor of psychology and gender studies at Birkbeck College in London. "We'd just seen Nazism, and the emphasis had been put on the idea that certain people were innately evil - Jews and gypsies, among others - so the emphasis on culture and society fitted well with social democratic ideals." The Reimers did not engage in this kind of debate. "I looked up to [John Money] as a god," Janet said simply.

Bruce Reimer started to become Brenda on July 3, 1967. Physicians at Johns Hopkins surgically castrated him, and the remaining skin was used to forge a "cosmetic vaginal cleft". Money sent the family back to Winnipeg with strict instructions. "He told us not to talk about it," Ron Reimer told John Colapinto. "Not to tell [Brenda] the whole truth, and that she shouldn't know she wasn't a girl."

Things started going wrong almost immediately. Janet Reimer recalled dressing Brenda in her first dress just before the child was due to turn two. "She was ripping at it, trying to tear it off. I remember thinking, 'Oh, my God, she knows she's a boy and she doesn't want girls' clothing." Brenda was bullied viciously at school. When she urinated standing up in the school lavatories, she was threatened with a knifing.

Whether all the blame should lie with Money remains a matter of contention. His supporters argue that reconstructive surgery techniques of the time were such that trying to turn Bruce into Brenda might genuinely have been the least worst option. In public, Money advertised the "John/Joan" study as a resounding success. "This dramatic case," Time magazine reported, picking up on his salesmanship, "provides strong support for a major contention of women's liberationists: that conventional patterns on masculine and feminine behaviour can be altered."

In private, though, things were spinning into chaos. Brenda was required to attend regular therapy sessions with Money in Baltimore, in the company of her brother. According to Colapinto's account, they soon degenerated into horrifying encounters that deeply traumatised the two children. Showing the children "explicit sexual pictures" was seemingly central to Money's theories of gender reassignment. David Reimerlater recalled, as Brenda, "getting yelled at by Money ... he told me to take my clothes off, and I just did not do it. I just stood there. And he screamed 'No!' I thought he was going to give me a whupping. So I took my clothes off and stood there, shaking."

In the children's grimmest recollection - one they found almost impossible to talk about years later - Money allegedly made "Brenda assume a position on all fours on his office sofa and make Brian come up behind her on his knees and place his crotch against her buttocks", an element of Money's theory he referred to as "sexual rehearsal play". (The author John Heidenry, who wrote a recent review defending the sexologist, calls this charge "outrageous and offensive", and says Brian, the source of the claim, may have been suffering false memory syndrome.)

By the time Brenda reached her teens she had attempted suicide at least once; she refused further surgery but consented, though irregularly, to take oestrogen supplements to encourage the development of breasts. John Money gradually drifted from the Reimers' lives, but Brenda remained under constant psychiatric treatment. It was after one such session with a Winnipeg psychiatrist in 1980 that Ron Reimer collected his daughter in the car and, instead of taking her home, drove her to an ice-cream parlour, where he told her everything.

The upturn in Reimer's fortunes lasted several years. Brenda opted for a sex change within weeks of her father telling her the truth. Thanks to developments in phalloplasty, Brenda, taking the name David, received surgery that after five years left him with a reconstructed penis resembling a real one, with limited sensation, and usable for sex. When he was 23 he met Jane, a single mother of three, and married her soon afterwards. In 2000, he went public with his story.

But his happiness didn't last. For reasons that remain unclear, David and Jane eventually separated. Then, two years ago, Brian Reimer apparently killed himself, taking an overdose of drugs he was taking for schizophrenia. David reportedly felt responsible for the death, and visited Brian's grave daily, weeding the plot and bringing fresh flowers.

Despite Colapinto's claims that David made a large amount of money from the book, those who knew him said he was often hard up; at the Transcona golf club, in Winnipeg's eastern suburbs, where he did odd jobs, the members had a whip round for him so he could afford to eat. Friends say he had became particularly distraught during the last few months after he bought thousands of dollars' worth of shares in an investment that flopped.

The world of psychology learned of the failure of Money's experiment through a paper by a rival, Dr Milton Diamond, of the University of Hawaii, who eventually traced those who had taken over treatment of the twins. For Lynne Segal, the story of the experiment does not settle the nature/nurture debate one way or the other - her view, widely shared today, is that the dichotomy is false - but it shows the perils of psychologists trying to prove too much through research. "It's far too simplistic, and far too interventionist, this idea that we can control and model and shape people to prove one thing or another."

John Money remains an emeritus professor at Johns Hopkins. "He's not commenting on this story," his assistant told the Guardian yesterday. "There is no comment to make."

· As Nature Made Him by John Colapinto is published by Quartet, priced £10

9 posted on 05/12/2004 8:28:57 AM PDT by kaylar
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To: Owl_Eagle
He DID hunt down and confront the doctor who performed the circumcision. According to the Colapinto book, when Brenda/David was a teen and had learned the truth , he looked up the doctor and went to his office. He walked in, and said,"Do you know who I am?" The doctor said no.David then said,"You ruined my life." And the doctor looked again-realized who David was-and put his head down on his desk and sobbed.
10 posted on 05/12/2004 8:32:34 AM PDT by kaylar
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To: billorites
What a sad, sad story. I read parts of the book; the poor man never had even a CHANCE for a normal life.

Had it been me, NO WAY would I have preceeded the "doctor" into the grave.

The man's penis was destroyed (actually, it was BURNED off) during the circumcision. From that moment on, his life was ruined by "well-meaning" people, including IMHO his parents.

In fact, this story was one of the reasons why, after my own son was born, we decided to forego circumcision. Apparently, such "accidents" happen a LOT.

My wife and I agreed; we would not risk mutilating him for no good reason at all.

11 posted on 05/12/2004 8:34:58 AM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: billorites
You should check out all the dirt on Dr. Alfred C. Kinsley the forerunner of the sexual (perverted branch) revolution..(his followers Masters & Johnson and the whole bunch) whom gave the willing media and education outlets all the warped information and lunacy that this poor victim lived out and subsequently ended.
12 posted on 05/12/2004 8:37:12 AM PDT by stanley windrush
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To: billorites
Janet said she still harbours anger toward a Baltimore doctor who convinced her and her husband, Ron, to give female hormones to their son and raise him as a daughter

And does this moron harbour anger toward herself for cooperating in this child abuse for years on end?

13 posted on 05/12/2004 8:38:05 AM PDT by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: Unam Sanctam
Didn't keep caring and compassionate Oprah from cashing in on the freak show circus, now did it....
14 posted on 05/12/2004 8:48:23 AM PDT by Jalapeno
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To: jocon307
I remember seeing this story on TV. So freaking sad. The Dr. was indeed a mad scientist.
15 posted on 05/12/2004 8:50:41 AM PDT by Hildy (...Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth. - Mark Twain)
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To: Hildy
May God rest this poor man's soul, and that of his twin.
16 posted on 05/12/2004 9:02:11 AM PDT by gal522
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To: Sloth
And does this moron harbour anger toward herself for cooperating in this child abuse for years on end?

Probably. This would not make life any easier, as all of us other morons would like to point out.

My question is, who's the greater moron? The moron, educated several orders of magnitude beyond his intelligence, who fancies himself a god able to remake the universe according to his whim, or the plain moron who goes to what is supposed to be a great professional wizard for advice, and believes what is told her?

While this "treatment" was going on, the psychiatrist and the other doctors could see that the family was suffering terribly, but none of them wanted to challenge the reputation of John Money. That is, until "Brenda/David" finally put "her/his" foot down and refused the surgery that would make "her/him" a woman.

17 posted on 05/12/2004 9:05:00 AM PDT by thulldud (It's bad luck to be superstitious.)
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To: Long Cut
From that moment on, his life was ruined by "well-meaning" people, including IMHO his parents.

I think his parents were "well meaning." They were desperate, and they were sold a bill of goods by a pervert with a lot of impressive credentials. Money, on the other hand, had an agenda. See Post #9. And he was willing to destroy these children to advance it. I repeat, the man should be in jail.

18 posted on 05/12/2004 9:18:40 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: Owl_Eagle
Actually, I have read several long articles about this case. He actually DID show up at the house of the doctor who removed his penis, with a gun, intending to kill him.

When the doctor found out who was at his house, he broke down and cried, from genuine remorse. David took compassion, and did not do anything.

The real culprit in this story is Dr. Money. A 1970's groovy shrink who thought he was a god. He screwed up this kid good. A tragedy all around.
19 posted on 05/12/2004 9:22:54 AM PDT by ThreeYearLurker
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To: Sloth
I wonder what any of us would have done in this mother's situation. She had a little boy who was horribly mutilated. As the article said, at that time there was little hope of reconstruction offered. So Money, the snake oil salesman, offered them a choice for their baby: Life as an irreparably mutilated boy, or life as a girl who couldn't reproduce, but would be outwardly normal.

The parents were desperate. Money was hot to prove the theory advanced by perverts and radical feminists -- that gender is only a social construct, which is malleable.
20 posted on 05/12/2004 9:25:15 AM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: billorites
This story tears at my heart. May G-d have mercy on a soul so tortured.

(steely)

21 posted on 05/12/2004 9:25:44 AM PDT by Steely Tom
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To: billorites

22 posted on 05/12/2004 9:25:49 AM PDT by Sender (<a href="http://www.democrats.org/">Miserable Failure</a>)
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To: Sloth
I'm sure she feels guilt, but I don't think this article tells how common this theory is.

I watched a show on the Discovery channel about intersex cases. They only presented a few cases, where the gender was assigned early on and the child had no say so. The people on the show were not happy with their assignment and wished that they had been able to make the choice for themselves.

I also wondered how many intersex people were happy with their assignments that weren't on the show. It would have been interesting to know.

They had one case, where the child had a very small penis, so the doctors over the objections of the mother cut it off. They claimed it was cancerous. The mother soon discovered this was a lie. They told her to raise him as a girl. The mother said no. This was a boy. The child has to take male hormones and will be short in stature, but they showed video of a perfectly healthy young boy. He definitely seemed all boy to me.

The doctor in this case sounded evil, but I think other doctors have been trying to figure out what is best for the child. It shows you that doctors don't always know and people need to do their own research before accepting any diagnosis or surgery from a doctor.

At one time lobotomies were the answer to mental health problems. Most people don't know that one of Joe and Rose Kennedy's girls was given a lobotomy. The doctors said it would help her adjust better. She was staying out late and not coming home. I heard that Rose could forgive Joe Kennedy for his affairs and everything else, but the lobotomy was something she couldn't forgive.
23 posted on 05/12/2004 9:26:02 AM PDT by FR_addict
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To: FR_addict
thulldud wrote: My question is, who's the greater moron? The moron, educated several orders of magnitude beyond his intelligence, who fancies himself a god able to remake the universe according to his whim, or the plain moron who goes to what is supposed to be a great professional wizard for advice, and believes what is told her?

lady lawyer wrote: I wonder what any of us would have done in this mother's situation. She had a little boy who was horribly mutilated. As the article said, at that time there was little hope of reconstruction offered. So Money, the snake oil salesman, offered them a choice for their baby: Life as an irreparably mutilated boy, or life as a girl who couldn't reproduce, but would be outwardly normal.

Nope, I don't buy it. If a child gets his arm chewed off by a lawnmower, you don't amputate the other one to make it "match", even if a doctor tells you to. Not if you love your child. Most likely, this man's parents were too morally and intellectually lazy to bother with raising a maimed child, so they turned it over to the guy with all the letters behind his name. And obviously, they knew that their other (uninjured) son was also in "counseling" with this doctor, and they purposefully looked the other way. I say they were willing participants in physical, sexual and psychological child abuse.

It's one thing when there is some legitimate gender-related ambiguity, like androgen insensitivity, though surgeons should not be surgically 'assigning sex' to infants in those cases, either. But this kid was perfectly normal genetically and phenotypically. The doctor was just mutilating him purposefully.

FR addict wrote: The doctor in this case sounded evil, but I think other doctors have been trying to figure out what is best for the child.

Sex chromosomes were identified nearly a century ago. There is no excuse for mid-to-late 20th century doctors pretending that they don't exist. BTW, I saw that Discovery show, too.

24 posted on 05/12/2004 11:15:17 AM PDT by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: FR_addict; lady lawyer; thulldud
Oops, that reply was meant to be posted to all of you.
25 posted on 05/12/2004 11:16:13 AM PDT by Sloth (We cannot defeat foreign enemies of the Constitution if we yield to the domestic ones.)
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To: Long Cut
"Apparently, such "accidents" happen a LOT."

Really? I've only heard of such a thing a couple of times in my life, including this incident.

26 posted on 05/12/2004 11:23:34 AM PDT by MEGoody (Kerry - isn't that a girl's name? (Conan O'Brian))
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To: Sloth

You have to understand that in the early sixties not many people had Ph.D's and so the ones that did were thought of as super smart people, and while he may have messed up, she had no other options, in her mind, and also people didn't sue people like they do today over hot coffee...

This quote was actually from a PBS program that interviewed the mother, David, and Dr. Diamond, not Dr. Money (of course he wouldn't comment)

ANNE FAUSTO-STERLING: I think she was faced with an extreme situation, that there were no resources available to her to figure out what would be the best thing to do. And so to have a well-known authority say, "I have a solution for you," must have been incredibly tempting.


27 posted on 04/19/2005 5:56:24 AM PDT by Mairead
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To: Mairead
Maybe -- maybe -- if we were talking about an 'intersex' child born with ambiguous genitalia, back before genetic testing was available, then I'd be somewhat sympathetic to ignorant parents manipulated by a doctor. But this kid wasn't intersex; he was a normal male who was the victim of a circumcision accident. Everybody involved knew he was male.

The mother may claim she had "no other options" but that's simply false. The most obvious option would be to simply raise him normally (w/ a urinary catheter or whatever such means were necessary to accommodate hygiene, etc.). What they did was child abuse, playing sick psychological games with a kid's mind.

BTW, why'd you sign up to resurrect a thread from a year ago? Did this page come up in a Google search or something?

28 posted on 04/19/2005 6:07:55 AM PDT by Sloth (I don't post a lot of the threads you read; I make a lot of the threads you read better.)
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To: billorites
We, as a species, had best hope that someday we are not Judged by the way we treat or most precious gifts. Our children.

As a species, we will be found severely lacking. G-d help us.

29 posted on 04/19/2005 6:11:42 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (Remember that great love and great achievements involve great risk.)
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To: jocon307

A lone crackpot is hardly a member of an "elite." Lord what do you think makes an "elite?"


30 posted on 04/19/2005 6:14:28 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
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