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I ain't no stinkin' liberal
The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review ^ | Sunday, May 16, 2004 | Bill Steigerwald

Posted on 05/16/2004 12:41:16 PM PDT by Willie Green

A good libertarian columnist quickly learns that if he's doing his job right, he'll be bombarded with hate e-mail from both liberal and conservative sides - often simultaneously.

He should be able, without breaking an ideological sweat or employing a killer quote from Madison, Jefferson or Hayek, to enrage tax-happy Nanny State liberal Democrats in one paragraph and puritanical Police State conservative Republicans in the next.

In the last two months, I've sniped away at the enemies of personal freedom, limited government and liberty that surround and annoy me

(Excerpt) Read more at pittsburghlive.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: libertarians

1 posted on 05/16/2004 12:41:16 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Willie Green
A good libertarian columnist quickly learns that if he's doing his job right, he'll be bombarded with hate e-mail from both liberal and conservative sides - often simultaneously.

Well, it's true...

If the third shoe fits the third foot, what is the third shoe?

A right shoe, or a left shoe?

2 posted on 05/16/2004 12:46:56 PM PDT by EGPWS
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To: Willie Green; martin_fierro
Let's not forget another Good Libertarian from the Trib, Dimitri Vassilaros, do we see the beginnnings of a Trend here?
3 posted on 05/16/2004 12:47:55 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Willie Green
"Libertarians have feelings too, you know."

If I was a member, I'd rip up my card.

Luckily, I'm a free-lance freedomite!

4 posted on 05/16/2004 12:49:39 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: Willie Green

I generally get along pretty well with libertarians. Both libertarians and conservatives (by which I mean classical liberals) believe strongly in personal liberty, and as far as that is concerned we pretty much tend to agree on things. The difference is that conservatives recognize that liberty by itself cannot stand--it must be coupled with virtue. The minimalist government true libertarians and conservatives strive for is an implausible reality unless it is to rule over a virtuous people. So while conservatives believe in maximizing freedom, they acknowledge that we must at the same time foster virtue, or it is all in vain.


5 posted on 05/16/2004 12:51:37 PM PDT by explodingspleen (When life gets complex, multiply by the complex conjugate.)
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To: EGPWS
...Takes both shoes to step forward, or, I have a feeling you might say, backward...

...Yea, I'm instigating, look at my profile...

6 posted on 05/16/2004 1:17:42 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: explodingspleen

If I have to vote for my tax money going to some lazy slob or the military, I will choose the military. I vote for Bush. But I don't see my total taxes payments (tax rate x income) going down.

 

7 posted on 05/16/2004 1:18:59 PM PDT by Mathlete
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To: Willie Green
enrage tax-happy Nanny State liberal Democrats in one paragraph and puritanical Police State conservative Republicans in the next.

So you're not a libertarian because you believe in liberty, but because you hate everybody else.

I lost interest at this point.

8 posted on 05/16/2004 1:21:39 PM PDT by irv
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To: gargoyle
...If, we now call this nation a democracy, let it be a 2/3 majority. That way, we can call it mob rule... Any questions???

Nope no questions here, however "mob rule" is a short term scenario, for could you just imagine the costs involved fitting the feet of a score of centipedes?

9 posted on 05/16/2004 1:26:36 PM PDT by EGPWS
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To: Mathlete

...I agree. Seems I read that somewhere, umm, oh yea, Art.1 Sec.8 Para.12, 13. Something else about limited government...


10 posted on 05/16/2004 1:28:41 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: explodingspleen

This is an interesting article.

Personally, I've always been confused by the myriad of extremes that fly under the same banner as libertarians (Bill Maher-socialist types as well as strict constructionists).

Lemme ask any real libertarians on this site:
What makes a true libertarian different than a Republican?
What is the difference between the so-called big "L" and small "l" Libertarians?


I've been a member of the GOP as long as I can remember. My heroes, from Hannity and Rush to Ronald W. Reagan were Republicans. Lower taxes, agressive prosecution of the war on Terror and in Iraq, and outlawing the mass slaughter of abortion are my key beliefs. I am generally satisfied with the Republican party, however a few of my views have never aligned with the Republican party platform.

These include:

1.) General disdain for the court system of the United States and the legal/law "practice" in general. Healthy Suspicion of police or anyone else who wields obscene power over fellow citizens.

2.) Opposition to the impossible, wasteful "war on drugs". An insane waste of resources and an incroachment on personal liberty. NOTE: NO, I don't personally do any illegal narcotics, not even marijuana. But if you want to smoke it, then light up. It's nobody's business.

3.) Although I personally believe that homosexuality is a sinful, ugly choice, I do not believe in the U.S. treating gays any differently than straights. Homosexuality is NOT an institutional problem, but a personal one. I don't believe in a Federal Amendment to ban homosexual marriage. Leave that up to the states (by the 10th Amendment).

4.) Censorship. There are few people I dislike, no, HATE, more than the uptight wankers at the Moral Majority who try to tell me what I may or may not view as an adult, or what I may show my family. Screw the FCC. That's not your decision.

What do you libertarians think of these positions?

Thanks for your input and have a nice day.


11 posted on 05/16/2004 1:30:00 PM PDT by RockAgainsttheLeft04 ("Kiss my a**, all you liberals" -Ted Nugent)
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To: Mathlete

The average American already has seen his total tax burden decreasing...


12 posted on 05/16/2004 1:32:24 PM PDT by Meldrim
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To: RockAgainsttheLeft04
"Leave that up to the states (by the 10th Amendment)."

I don't think the full faith and credit clause is going to allow room for that. Also, the Constitution is the device for laying down nationwide rules when clarification is needed: Defining marriage and the National Language are two good candidates for this...

13 posted on 05/16/2004 1:35:50 PM PDT by Meldrim
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To: EGPWS

... Yea, I can. The centipedes in congress got alot of shoes they need we the people to buy...


14 posted on 05/16/2004 1:37:29 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: gargoyle

That's what I like about our "negative" constitution compared to the "positive" constitution of the USSR. Ours states what the government will not do. Theirs states what the government will do. Ours exists. Theirs is history.

15 posted on 05/16/2004 1:42:02 PM PDT by Mathlete
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To: RockAgainsttheLeft04

...I agree. Key word is RP Platform. This recovering libertarian agrees. Look at the individual issues, not the party line...


16 posted on 05/16/2004 1:43:43 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: Meldrim

But that's just the point. I don't really think that "defining marriage" is a duty of ANY level of the government (whether state or federal), because I see marriage as a religious, rather than secular issue. Unfortunately, we in America have so secularized marriage that it can be performed outside of ANY church or religion (by government officials) and valuable and important sections of our tax code are based around the concept of marriage.

I don't think that marriage was EVER meant to be anything but the union of a man and a woman under God, but if we've already bastardized the act by intermingling it with national law and the like, we might as well leave this "issue" to the states (by referendum), rather than the out-of-touch Washington crowd. What I presented in my previous post is the compromise of my actual beliefs, having realized that by the courts (left) or the legislature (right), America will overstep it's boundaries and order the churches of America either to marry/refuse to marry homos.

Did that clear anything up?


17 posted on 05/16/2004 1:49:40 PM PDT by RockAgainsttheLeft04 ("Kiss my a**, all you liberals" -Ted Nugent)
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To: gargoyle
The centipedes in congress got alot of shoes they need we the people to buy...

So your impression is that we are governed by a mob?

18 posted on 05/16/2004 1:49:48 PM PDT by EGPWS
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To: Meldrim
If so, it's because of the "libertarian" spirit in the current republican administration -- not because of their "republican" side.

But I (and my corporation) just wrote out 7 tax checks in 7 stamped envelops to the government this April 15th, and woooiee! I didn't see a decrease. Nevertheless, national debt has to be paid back sooner or later, whether by inflation, currency exchange dropping, or by taxes, regardless of the future administration's political affiliation. A drop in tax burden now in exchange for a future increase is not reassuring.

19 posted on 05/16/2004 1:50:39 PM PDT by Mathlete
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To: EGPWS

I think its called a rubber?


20 posted on 05/16/2004 1:54:44 PM PDT by Beckwith (Just a little humor . . .)
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To: irv

...I believe the authors thinking that it's the radical right and left that are enraged. Most of mainstream right and left are resonable, sometimes not rational, but, open to debate. Most libertarians don't hate anyone. They believe individuals have the right to freely associate with whom they wish.


21 posted on 05/16/2004 1:58:51 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: EGPWS

...Hmmm, aummm, ahhh, yea. Ya got me. A majority/mob, in congress, are not representing us. They have an agenda. To remain in power and their positions for life. Not all. There are some statesmen in the Legeslature...


22 posted on 05/16/2004 2:19:52 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: Willie Green
In the last two months, I've sniped away at the enemies of personal freedom, limited government and liberty that surround and annoy me

The REpublic is not against limited government per say. If anarchy reigns, the Republic is there to reign in the law of the anarchist with a counter-law.

This is the essence of limited government: there is a numerator and a denominator and hopefuly we have a good balance.

23 posted on 05/16/2004 2:22:18 PM PDT by JudgemAll
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To: gargoyle
There are some statesmen in the Legislature...

However it is our duty to know who they are, and of course our Republic Government among it's branches to maintain our Republics stability. ; )

24 posted on 05/16/2004 2:25:38 PM PDT by EGPWS
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To: RockAgainsttheLeft04
explodingspleen...

You are very close to being a libertarian. You differ from libertarians in that, generally speaking, libertarians believe a pregnant woman should have freedom to determine her own physical condition, and libertarians oppose foreign military adventures unless there is a direct threat from the targeted foreign nation. Libertarians generally support the "war on terror," but most believe that the war should be directed at the defined enemy of Al Queda. Most libertarians believe that there has never been any evidence that Iraq or Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the U.S., or had any link to Al-Queda.

Many libertarians believe that the threat of terrorism can be lessened by not meddling in foreign countries' political affairs.

Like most political parties, not all adherents agree with all the planks. Ron Paul, D-TX, is a good example of the general libertarian view of things.

Hope this helps.
25 posted on 05/16/2004 2:40:23 PM PDT by dlt
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To: EGPWS

...Yer right. I knew, some how, that I was going to have to drag the Congressional record out for facts. Lets start with Repeal of the 17th Amendment. Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, I think, proposed debate on this? I'm for it...


26 posted on 05/16/2004 2:45:37 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: gargoyle
I knew, some how, that I was going to have to drag the Congressional record out for facts.

Why? Not on my account, perhaps Willies?

27 posted on 05/16/2004 2:52:39 PM PDT by EGPWS
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To: dlt
...Well said. May I add, what ever party affinity, Look at each issue, and decide how you feel about it...

...And another thing, dlt, this recovering libertarian, is convinced that the fight in Iraq, by this administration is justified. and the President has my support...

28 posted on 05/16/2004 3:48:11 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: EGPWS

...Perhaps I have to scroll back and read what I've missed. On your account, it won't be nesessary, I might get off the hook.%`}...


29 posted on 05/16/2004 3:54:41 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: Beckwith

...Or a condom, for the PC crowd...


30 posted on 05/16/2004 3:57:43 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: dlt

Ron Paul is a Republican.


31 posted on 05/16/2004 4:12:05 PM PDT by oblomov
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To: RockAgainsttheLeft04

I agree with your positions as you have stated them.

Although I consider myself a libertarian, I have grave concerns about the legal validity of Roe v. Wade. I think that the abortion issue should be left up to the states. I oppose any public funding of abortions.

I am against tax breaks for corporations that disproportionately benefit large corporations. Ideally, tax incentives would never be skewed on the basis of the size of the corporation. If this skewing is unavoidable, then in my view they should be skewed toward capital formation, i.e. small businesses.

I am more of a hard liner on taxes than most Republicans. I believe that the income tax is an affront to individual liberty. I support replacing it with a national sales tax.

In general, I'm for a small, weak federal government with the exception of the military. Unlike the paleolibertarians, I think that it's fantasy to think that we can fight Al-Qaeda and preserve individual liberty by hiring private police forces. War may be the health of the state, but tyranny is an even greater boon to the state.

This said, I'll reluctantly vote for Bush. I am a realist when it comes to voting.


32 posted on 05/16/2004 4:26:52 PM PDT by oblomov
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To: oblomov

...Don't you mean registered as a republican. Uppp, sorry, if this is Congressman Ron Paul, Republican...


33 posted on 05/16/2004 4:34:42 PM PDT by gargoyle
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To: Willie Green
"Under the provocative headline "It's time to bail out," I humbly -- and sensibly, I thought -- suggested that it might be time for President Bush to cut our losses, declare "mission accomplished," scrap his grand plans to franchise a chain of democracies in the Middle East and exit Iraq before things there got any worse, which they most likely will."

Liberal? No.

Ignorant willing dupe of the liberals? Yes.

34 posted on 05/16/2004 4:36:43 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: RockAgainsttheLeft04

The judicial branch is necessary for government to function. It is not inherently bad. The problem is activist judges, who decide what the law should be as opposed to what the law is. The Republican party seems equally committed to appointing judges who interpret the law. I do not see where that view would be inconsistent with Republicans. You can take issue with the bad choices made in appointing judges to the bench, but they were simply that. I think George Bush is doing as outstanding job in this regard by not giving in.

As far as the drug was goes, I think you'll see that change as my generation grows up. Not b/c we're liberal hippee potheads, but b/c we recognize it's silliness. By outlawing marijuana you bring a whole myriad of other problems, such as organized crime and importation of illegal guns into the country. Harsher, more addictive drugs will still be illegal like heroin.

The problem with gay marriage is the full faith and credit clause. Right now there is the Defense of Marriage Act that gives the states the option of not recognizing other states marriage laws. However, one activist judge and we're back to concern #1.

Oh, and Bill Maher is not a libertarian. It's just a neat way for him to try to say "listen to me, I am not a lunatic liberal wacko" or "I am above party politics." Example, his book "When You Ride Alone, You ride with Bin Laden." A true libertarian would not care what you do with you're own time, as long as it's not infringing on his right. A superficial link between gas consumption and funding for Bin Laden is not enough to drive a libertarian to action.


35 posted on 05/16/2004 4:37:19 PM PDT by ConservativeLawStudent
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To: oblomov

Do we have any classification on this thread for a liberaltarian? I thought not.


36 posted on 05/16/2004 4:39:43 PM PDT by meenie
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To: Mathlete

Don't forget the completely open borders and no-holds barred drug use.


37 posted on 05/16/2004 4:42:33 PM PDT by Libertina (This Tagline contains adult content and has been relocated to the Smokey Back Room.)
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To: gargoyle
...Checking out for awhile, but, I want to thank you guys and gals here for a good afternoon. It's been a catharsis...

...See ya...

38 posted on 05/16/2004 4:50:12 PM PDT by gargoyle
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