Young people turn against their parents' 'church lite'

Lexington Herald Leader ^ | 5/16/04 | John Leland

[Bobby Chang]

"I stopped attending mass when the tambourines and the rock band arrived. It didn't mesh too well."

I don't think my voice teacher would approve of those instruments either. I also do not approve of them. The mood for worship is NOT set by loud instruments.

[RnMomof7]

We do all have a blessed hope KJ, but the discussion was focused on is God fickle? I saw nothing in your post to indicate that you did not think he might be

If you deny that God is immutable and omniscient you make Him a God that is willing to break a covenant agreement ( as is the example in the text KJ used) ..fickle

[RnMomof7]

Yes, I know that we share a dislike for the leftward drift.

I will listen when I have an opportunity. Thanks

[RnMomof7]

This post should have had a courtesy ping

I think the longer mom posts, the more accurate my original description of the hardened calvinists becomes. Even to the point, that if you don't completely disavow any and all of the biblical text that teaches freewill, and then believe in predestination to the degree that she does... you worship a different God than her.

I did not say that (as I do not believe that ) , I said it could be argued . And I think it could. If we define God by His nature or Characteristics or nature then you deny immutability (as taught in the Bible) and omniscience (knowing all things past present and future ) as taught in the Bible then we can argue we have different gods

That's where these discussions always go. And the next phase is that we aren't really saved because we don't accept the calvinist doctrine in the manner that they believe.

That is a lie from the pit of hell KJ, show me where I have ever said another Christian was unsaved. You owe me an apology

I have never said it was necessary to be a Calvinist to be saved .. That is another lie.

It seems your best arguments against the immutability of God is to slander Calvinists and me in particular

And yes that is the last refuge of Arminians when they are shown the truth with Scripture. If you do not like the message attack the messenger . The fact you failed to ping me is proof that you knew you were lying .

I made that statement early in this thread and it torqued them that I would even think such. But when it's all said and done, my statement was accurate.

Your statement , unless you can back them up are slanderous lies. I expect that you will produce those posts or apologize publicly

[RnMomof7]

Sorry here is your reply

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1137027/posts?page=362#362

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Here's the deal from my perspective. I love the debate. It's fascinating to me. I was thinking your posts were great and then I was thinking Kj's posts were great too. It is a healthy debate. But when you guys start with the "you are twisting scripture" and the "your god is not trustworthy" stuff then you ruin it. You are both very well versed in Scripture and seem to be very faithful Christians. This theological point, while fascinating and important, is not a matter of heaven or hell. The Bible also speaks about how we are to treat one another.

Again, I love both of your posts. There is a lot of truth in all of them. I just don't like it when it becomes personal or hurtful. It is probably unintentional, but that's the way it reads to me.

[RnMomof7]

Here's the deal from my perspective. I love the debate. It's fascinating to me. I was thinking your posts were great and then I was thinking Kj's posts were great too. It is a healthy debate. But when you guys start with the "you are twisting scripture" and the "your god is not trustworthy" stuff then you ruin it. You are both very well versed in Scripture and seem to be very faithful Christians. This theological point, while fascinating and important, is not a matter of heaven or hell. The Bible also speaks about how we are to treat one another.

If God is mutable , and He can and DOES change his mind , would you say you can trust His promises?

If you punch in on google The attributes of God , it is my guess that most will list Immutable and omniscient . Those are Characteristics of God that have been taught for generations by the church .

It is not a matter of heaven or hell unless God really can and will change his mind in the future right :>) It goes to our ability to have faith and to know that God is always faithful to His word.

As Christians we hold probably 95% of our soteriology in common . The difference in the 5% can be summed up in this discussion in some ways .

My Church does not demand that members be Calvinists , however it does demand that we all hold that 95% in common. Those are the areas questioned when you meet with the elders.

If God had truly intended to destroy Israel , if we look at it from a non Calvinist perspective , He would have foreseen the rebellion of Israel and He would never had purposed to have the line of the Savior come through David . Moses held God accountable for His promises .

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

God is not mutable, but He does respond to us. The fact that He created us and knows what we will ask before we ask it changes the definition of everything only from HIS perspective. We are still freely choosing. From a human perspective -- as God designed that perspective to be -- we are in fact changing His mind. We are still 100% accountable and deserving of His judgement. He hears the prayers of the righteous and answers them. He forgives us when we confess our sins. He turns His back on the wicked. He answers us when we call. Our action does affect His action and then again it doesn't. That is my position.

I've heard this debate many times and it is usually all done with passion and respect. I do not see the free will side as defining God down or something. It is truly a more minor difference in interpretation than that.

I think it is a paradox and that both are true at the same time.

[RnMomof7]

God is not mutable, but He does respond to us

I take this to mean that you see man as the actor and God as the responder? What if that response means that God must change his mind and thus become mutable ?

The fact that He created us and knows what we will ask before we ask it changes the definition of everything only from HIS perspective. We are still freely choosing. From a human perspective -- as God designed that perspective to be -- we are in fact changing His mind.

I agree that from our human perspective we are making a choice that is absolutely free. But that choice is a part of the eternal plan of God .

My human example

A smart parent knows how to handle the growing independence of a child when they want to select their own clothes, so they do not walk around all "mismatched "

The parent selects a few "outfits" and presents them to the child to select from . The child believes she has selected her clothes, but in fact that selection was from a predetermined set of choices.

He hears the prayers of the righteous and answers them

I can trust the prayers of the righteous always reflect their desire to do as God wills. They will also see that the answer yes is not always Gods plan or will

[kjam22]

Failed to ping you? I pinged you on the post before it. And I did them at roughly the same time? Take your kj worships a different god statement and Take a hike.

In my opinion you do twist scripture to make it fit the calvinist doctrine. But you know I think that. John 3:16 is a classic example. You and your buddies read that to say that "whosoever" means whosoever god has called to believe in him. You know, the scripture doesn't say that... but that's what you read into it to make the doctrine fit.

Same as your take on the sermon on the mount. The fact that the bible says the crowd was amazed at how he taught them with such authority, and not like the scribes means little to you. You would continue to state that Jesus was teaching only the elect there..... even though there were no saved believers in the crowd (including his disciples).

It's about reading the text with a presupposed meaning. And maybe I shouldn't use the word twisted... but to me that's what it is.

My original statement was that there are two seemingly opposing doctrines that co-exist, hand in hand, both fully functional and valid. I think that to deny either of those is twisting the scripture to make it fit in a nice little package so that we simple minded humans can believe that we fully understand it.

That's just my opinion.

[kjam22]

The bible says that God contemplated destroying Israel and foregoing his covenant with Abraham. Completely starting over.

Yet the bible also says God is "trustworthy". And He is. And I trust him completely. Yet I don't limit him. I know fellow believers who believe, and it is commonly taught in churches today that "God cannot do anything against his nature. Therefore God CAN'T sin, can't lie, can't you .... do things that aren't perfect".

See I don't believe that. I think the bible teaches that God spoke the universe into existence. He decided what was good and bad. He set up every rule and everything that is. I think God can do anything he please. I think he doesn't sin, or do those bad things because he chooses not to. I believe that he won't, not that he can't.

I believe that Jesus was fully God, and fully man. I think he had every opportunity to sin, and was tempted in ways that none of us have been tempted. And he didn't sin because he chose not to.

I'm trusting God. I'm believing in his promise. My hope is in his salvation. But you know, he doesn't owe me anything. It's his uinverse. I'm just blessed that he wants me.

[kjam22]

Here's another new song that I just finished tracking the instruments on this morning. Still has the "working vocal" on it. But even that vocal isn't bad.

http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=5497

Just hit play when you get there. Have a great day guys!

[kjam22]

Here's another new song that I just finished tracking the instruments on this morning. Still has the "working vocal" on it. But even that vocal isn't bad.
http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=5497

Just hit play when you get there. Have a great day guys!

[superloser]

I don't think my voice teacher would approve of those instruments either. I also do not approve of them. The mood for worship is NOT set by loud instruments.

Well, I played in a rock band for a decade so I approve of them if - and only if - they are used appropriately.

In this instance (eesh) they are not being used appropriately. If they were used to help people stay on key and/or help set a base tempo, that would be fine.

It really sucks when you wind up sitting next a crash cymbal...its very hard to do anything after you've been rendered stone deaf.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

I take this to mean that you see man as the actor and God as the responder?

I see man as responder, actor, responder, actor, responder! I see God as Actor, responder, acctor, responder, actor!!! It is highly significant that God is the first actor and the final actor. I do not disagree with your points about predestination for the most part. But that doesn't change, in my view, the fact that man is responding and that the action of man's response causes God to respond with action of His own. Thereby making both theologies true at the same time.

[RnMomof7]

Ummm pretty angry there KJ , I am not the one that misrepresented your words.

We say the Mormons are not Christians because their god has different attributes.. The JW's are not Christians because they define god with different attributes.

I did not say that we worship different Gods , I said it could be argued , and it could.
God is the sum total of all His attributes.

---

THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD

(Scripture Study)


1) Personal:
(God is a self-conscious Being capable of thought, will, and interaction with others.)


OT: Gen 1:1-31; Exod 20:1-17; Job 12:13; Ps 2:4; Prov 3:19f; Isa 55:8f.


NT: Matt 6:1-15; 2Cor 1:3f; 1Thes 4:3,7.


2) Creator:
(The whole of creation came into existence through the will and power of God.)


OT: Gen 1:1-31; Neh 9:5f; Job 38:1-41; Ps 19:1; 24:1f; 33:6-9; 89:11f; 95:6f; 102:25-27; Isa 44:24; 45:18; Zech 12:1.


NT: Acts 14:15; Rom 1:20; Heb 11:3; Rev 4:11.


3) Life Giver:
(All of life was created by and is dependent on God.)


OT: Gen 2:7; Ps 36:9; Job 12:10; 33:3; Dan 5:23.


NT: Acts 17:25; 1Tim 6:13; Rev 22:1.


4) Spirit/ Invisible:
(God's existence can be immaterial, non-physical, and is distinct from His creation.)


OT: Exod 20:4; Dt 4:11; Job 9:11; 23:8f; 35:14.


NT: John 1:18; 4:24 (cp. Luke 24:39); 6:46; Col 1:15; 1Tim 1:17; 6:16; Heb 11:27; 1John 4:12.


5) Omnipresent:
(God is present in all places at all times.)


OT: 1Sam 2:3; 1Ki 8:27; Ps 73:23-28; 139:7f; Jer 23:23f.


NT: John 4:20-24; Acts 7:48-50; 17:26-28; Eph 4:6; Heb 13:5f.


6) Omniscient:
(God knows all things.)


OT: 1Ki 8:37-39; Job 34:21f; 37:16; 38:1-3; Ps 10:11-15; 33:13-15; 59:5-9; 94:4-11; 139:1-6,11f,15-18; 147:4f; Prov 15:3; Eccl 12:13f; Isa 29:15f; 40:12-14,25-28; Jer 16:17; 32:19; Zech 4:10.


NT: Matt 6:7f; 10:30; Acts 15:18; Rom 11:33; Col 2:3; Heb 4:13; 1John 3:20.


7) Knows the Future:
(God's omniscience includes knowledge of all that will come to pass before it occurs.)


OT: Gen 15:13f; Exod 3;19; Deut 31:15-21; 1Ki 13:1f (see 2Ki 23:15f); 1Ki 14:12f,17f; Josh 6:2 (see 1Ki 16:34); Ps 139:4, 16; Isa 40:12-14,27-31; 41:21-24; 44:6-8; 48:3-5; 65:24; Jer 1:5; 32:3-5 (cp. Ezek 12:13; 2Ki 25:5-7); Dan 2:28.


NT: Matt 2:4-6; Eph 1:3f; Acts 3:18; 15:16-18; 1Cor 15:3f; Rev 13:8; 17:8.


8) Omnipotent:
(God can do all things capable of being done with an unlimited amount of power.)


OT: Gen 17:1; 18:14; Deut 32:39; 2Chr 20:6; Ps 33:6-11; 115:3; 135:6; Isa 14:24-27; 40:28; 43:13; Jer 32:17,27.


NT: Matt 19:26; Luke 1:37; 18:27; Rom 8:31; Rev 19:6.


9) Sovereign:
(God is absolute Lord over His creation and all that occurs therein.)


OT: 1Sam 2:6-10; Lam 3:37-39; Job 9:12 (cp. 23:1-7); 34:24-30; 36:22f; 37:20; 38:1-4; 40:1-8; 42:1-6; Ps 2:1-12; 33:10f; 37:12f; 103:19; 135:6f; Isa 40:12-17,22f; 45:9f; 64:8: Dan 4:35.


NT: Matt 10:29; Acts 5:38f; 17:24-26; 18:9f; Rom 9:20; Jam 4:13-15.


10) Incomprehensible:
(God cannot be fully known.)


OT: Job 9:10; 11:7-9; 36:26; Ps 139:6; 145:3; Isa 40:28; 55:8f.


NT: Rom 11:33-36; 1Cor 2:11,16; Eph 3:9; Phil 4:7.


But God can be know truly: Jer 9:23f; Dan 11:32; John 17:3; 1Cor 13:9-12; Eph 1:9; 1John 5:20.


11) Eternal:
(God had no beginning and will have no end.)


OT: Gen 1:1; 21:33; Exod 3:14; Deut 32:40; 33:27; Job 36:26; Ps 10:16; 41:13; 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 106:48; 117:1f; Isa 40:28; 43:13; 44:6; 57:15; Hab 1:12.


NT: Acts 15;18; Rom 1:20; 16:25f; 1Tim 1:17; 6:16; Heb 4:3; 11:3; Rev 1:4; 11:17; 21:6.


12) Self-Existent:
(God has life within Himself; His existence is not dependent on any other)


OT: Gen 1:1; Exod 3:14.


NT: John 5:26; Acts 17:24f; 1Tim 1:17; 6:16.


13) Immutable:
(God cannot change in his nature, character, or dependability.)


OT: Gen 8:22; 9:8-13; Numb 23:19; 1Sam 15:29; Lam 3:22f; Ps 33:1; 89:34; 102:24-27; Isa 40:28; Mal 3:6.


NT: Rom 11:29; 2Tim 2:11-13; Titus 1:1-3; Heb 6:13-20; 10:19-23; Jam 1:17.


14) Perfect:
(God is flawless and complete; He does not lack anything or have any moral imperfection.)


OT: Gen 18:14; Deut 3:3f; 2Sam 22:31-33; Job 21:22; Ps 19:7.


NT: Matt 5:48; Rom 12:2; 1John 3:3.


15) Incomparable:
(God is superior over all in His essence, character, and actions and is worthy of all praise.)


OT: Exod 15:11; Deut 33:26; 2Sam 7:22; Ps 35:10; 50:21; 71:19; 86:8-10; 97:9; 113:4-6; Isa 40:25; Jer 10:6-16.


NT: 1Tim 1:17; 6:15f; Jude 25; Rev 4:8-11.


16) Good:
(The moral character of God)


OT: Exod 34:6; 1Chr 16:34; Ps 25:8; 34:8-10; 135:3; Lam 3:25; Nah 1:7.


NT: Matt 7:11; Acts 14:17; Rom 2:4; 2Thes 1:11.


17) Holy:
(God is separate from all else, especially from all evil.)


OT: Exod 3:5; 19:10-21: 20:18-21; 33:18-23; Lev 19:2; Deut 5:23-27; 1Sam 2:2; 6:20; Ps 22:3; Isa 6:1-5; 57:15; Jer 5:22; Hab 2:20.


NT: Jam 1:13; 1Pet 1:15f; Rev 3:7; 4:8-10; 15:3f.


18) Righteous and Just:
(God's nature and actions are always morally right.)


OT: Gen 18:25; Exod 9:27; Ps 11:7; 19:8f; 33:4f; 89:14; 97:2-6; 111:3; 119:142,160,172; 129:4.


NT: Matt 6:33; Acts 17:30f; Rom 1:16f; 3:21-26; 3:21-26; 7:12; Jam 1:13; 1John 1:5,9; 3:7; Rev 15:3; 16:4-7; 19:2.


19) Judge:
(God is the final determiner of what is morally right or wrong; all people are answerable to Him and His standards.)


OT: Gen 18:25; Deut 32:34-43; 1Sam 2:3,10; 1Chr 16:33; Ps 7:11; 9:7f; 10:8-18; 10:8-18; 50:1-6; 58:10f; 82:8; 94:2; 96:13; 98:9; Isa 66:14-17.


NT: Rom 1:32; 2:2-5; 10:16; Heb 10:30; 12:23; 13:4; Rev 20:11-15.


20) Wrath:
(God's moral character leads Him to judge and punish all unrighteousness.)


OT: Exod 15:7-10; 22:22-24; Deut 4:24; 7:10; 32:21f; Isa 13:11-13; Jer 10:10.


NT: Matt 3:7; Luke 12:2-5; John 3:36; Rom 1:18; 2:5; 5:9; Eph 2:3; Col 3:6; 5:6; 1Thes 1:10; Heb 10:26-31; 12:29; Rev 11:16-19; 15:1,7f; 16:1.


Immediate judgments: Gen 38:7-10; Lev 10:1-3 (cp. 16:13); Numb 16:1-49; 21:4-9; 2Sam 6:1-13; Ezek 18:4; Luke 13:1-5; Acts 5:1-11; 12:20-23 (cp. Gen 2:16f; 3:1-6; 5:5).


21) Grace, Mercy and Love:
(God's dealings with His people are based on His goodness, generosity, concern, and compassion; instead of on what we deserve.)


OT: Deut 7:7-9; 10:15-18; 33:12; 1Chr 16:34; Neh 9:17; Ps 63:3; 86:15; 100:5; 103:8; 119:64; 145:8f; Isa 63:7-9; Jer 31:3; Lam 3:22-26; Dan 9:9; Jonah 3:10-4:2.


NT: John 3:16; Rom 5:8-11; Eph 1:6f; 2:4-10; Titus 3:3-7; 1John 4:9f; 5:11-13; Rev 21:4.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/att.html

---

The fact is I did not "twist" the scripture on the sermon of the mount. You just did not like what it says.
Jesus never attempted to keep all men without exception as disciple. We see Him often take his disciples aside . In fact in John 6 we see he literally drove some away .


I showed you commentaries by respected men that have the same observation.


I always find it interesting that Calvinists are "accused" of forcing scripture.

To believe that one must ignore clearly stated teachings by Jesus , and Paul that address being chosen , being called , being drawn , being predestined .
There is no scripture that tells us we must "choose" Jesus to be saved. That is an invention of men.

It does tell us that no man can come unless the Father draw him and that Jesus would not lose one that the Father draws .

Pretty plain that the Father does not draw all men or all men would be saved.
Jesus made no exceptions. He never taught that men could draw themselves .


I had said a couple of times in the preceding posts that I considered you a brother in Christ , yet you proceeded to say that I say those that are not calvinists are not saved. I have in fact always said just the opposite .

But it is easier to discredit me than the argument I make , I understand that .

I say again for the official FR record.

I was saved as a Catholic, I was saved as a Wesleyan and I am saved as a Calvinist.
No one has to hold to reform doctrine to be saved.

If I was harsh in my demand for an apology I am sorry, I just get tired of being accused of saying things I never said. I do say enough to get my self in hot water with my words , without more being added to them

[RnMomof7]

I LOVE it. I see there were some criticisms of the "mix' (I think that is what it is called)

But some of us are guitar nuts and really like to hear them (I have not played in years)

She is a talented writer ...

Will this be out soon?

Hey K I might add that is a fine Calvinist song ( and it is:>))))

[RnMomof7]

I'm trusting God. I'm believing in his promise. My hope is in his salvation. But you know, he doesn't owe me anything. It's his uinverse. I'm just blessed that he wants me.

Romans 8:15,16 says, For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

I have been a Christian for 27 years . On the day of my salvation. I asked over and over "why me Lord , why me ?" . I had to give a testimony at church today , I told them that I was not going to give a salvation testimony , because it still brings me to tears .There is no reason for the love and grace He has given me , I am the most worthless of his creation...yet He calls me His...

With tears I still say Thank you to my God!

[kjam22]

It is a good calvinist song. :) The lyrics are in Psalms 139 ... verses 7 through 12. We're doing the final mixes on everything and will be sending it off to be mastered in the very near future.

I run it by those guys at recordingproject.com because they have valued opinions. I would say this... Angela heard it last night and said it was a little more "electric guitarey" than she had expected. I like it that way... but who knows how we'll end up with it in the final mix. If she can sing it with a little bit more of an edge so that the vocal better fits the music, then we'll leave it as is I think.

Glad you liked it... and have a great Sunday evening!