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'Nerve gas bomb' explodes in Iraq
BBC News World Edition ^ | 05/17/04 | BBC News

Posted on 05/17/2004 8:14:59 AM PDT by JusticeTalion

An artillery round containing a small amount of the nerve gas sarin has exploded in Iraq. Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt said the blast caused a small release of the substance, and two people were treated for exposure to the agent.

The substance was found in an artillery shell inside a bag discovered by a US convoy a few days ago, he said.

It appears to be the first evidence of nerve gas existing in Iraq since the start of the US-led war last year.

The BBC's security correspondent Frank Gardner says the implications, especially psychological, for the use of such a substance by terrorists are potentially huge.

Gen Kimmitt said the dispersal of the nerve agent from a device such as the homemade bomb was "limited".

"The former regime had declared all such rounds destroyed before the 1991 Gulf War," he said.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: iraq; sarin; wmd
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How many count as proof?
1 posted on 05/17/2004 8:15:05 AM PDT by JusticeTalion
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To: JusticeTalion

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1137038/posts


2 posted on 05/17/2004 8:16:29 AM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (You make me feel warm all over. No...wait...I'm soaking in a puddle of my own urine.)
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To: JusticeTalion

oh boy....could this be the "tip" of the iceberg? Stay safe, soliders!


3 posted on 05/17/2004 8:17:20 AM PDT by smiley
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To: JusticeTalion

June is busting out all over on this one. All the outlets are picking it up except our "major" ones....


4 posted on 05/17/2004 8:19:02 AM PDT by b4its2late (Liberals are good examples of why some animals eat their young.)
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To: JusticeTalion

"How many count as proof?"

Republican = 1

DemoRAT = No matter what, it's not enough!


5 posted on 05/17/2004 8:21:54 AM PDT by River_Wrangler (Gun powder for me and a beer for my horse!)
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To: JusticeTalion

How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside? There are hundreds/thousands of foreign fighters in the country since the fall of Saddam, some of them Al-Qaeda linked, and many of whom have the capability/contacts to procure all sorts of chemical weapons. Don't forget it's been well over a year that these guys have been inside iraq.

Even a significant nerve gas attack at this stage would be no guarantee that the agent used was originally made or stored in Saddam-era Iraq.


6 posted on 05/17/2004 8:22:07 AM PDT by JedForbes
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To: JusticeTalion

This is no big deal! David Kay said so....MSNBC is covering the prisoner abuse story! (sarcasm)


7 posted on 05/17/2004 8:22:09 AM PDT by Ragirl (Vote in '04 ! Those who sit on their hands end up with poop on them.)
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To: smiley

Hmm. It probably won't get picked up that widely because Sarin isn't a "sexy" WMD like a nuclear device, Anthrax or Ebola.


8 posted on 05/17/2004 8:25:35 AM PDT by Lou L
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To: JusticeTalion

I demand an apology.


9 posted on 05/17/2004 8:26:02 AM PDT by Lijahsbubbe (John Kerry is a dingleberry)
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To: JusticeTalion
How many count as proof?

I would say one is proof, many is a stockpile. I bet the terrorists are trying to figure out which ammo dump they stole this one from as we write.

10 posted on 05/17/2004 8:28:07 AM PDT by highlander_UW (A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. - Robert Frost)
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To: JusticeTalion
This is just the first Sarin bomb. More will soon follow. The Iraqis will soon be demanding the U.S. not to leave because they are without any defense against terrorists armed with WMDs.

Saddam's WMD were shipped to Syria just after the war began. There are 150 reports about Iraq's WMDs and Saddam's proven support of terrorism HERE.

11 posted on 05/17/2004 8:28:58 AM PDT by ex-Texan
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To: JedForbes
How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside? --JedForbes

JedForbes signed up on May 17, 2004.

12 posted on 05/17/2004 8:30:50 AM PDT by CurlyDave
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To: ex-Texan
Gotta love this DUmmy response:

mouse7 (1000+ posts)
Mon May-17-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
46. Rummy picked the shell up from Pine Bluff before his visit to Iraq
Awful damn convenient that the person in the world most under the microscope right now that has more access to chemical weapons than anyone else in the world just popped his head in the door to have a pep rally last week and an old sarin shell shows up minutes after he left.
Gee... I'll bet nobody checks the party that travels with Rummy either.

13 posted on 05/17/2004 8:33:31 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: JusticeTalion
How many count as proof?

The answer is:

At each time T, "proof" consists of: an amount greater than has been discovered by time T

14 posted on 05/17/2004 8:33:57 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside? There are hundreds/thousands of foreign fighters in the country since the fall of Saddam, some of them Al-Qaeda linked, and many of whom have the capability/contacts to procure all sorts of chemical weapons. Don't forget it's been well over a year that these guys have been inside iraq.

Even a significant nerve gas attack at this stage would be no guarantee that the agent used was originally made or stored in Saddam-era Iraq. A fine example of Bush-hating Democrat cognitive dissonance at work.

15 posted on 05/17/2004 8:36:11 AM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: JedForbes
How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside?

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to indicate this? Absent such evidence, the most logical hypothesis would be that the WMD came from nearby rather than faraway.

How odd it would be to assume it came from faraway lands unless proved otherwise! I wonder what would compel a person to adopt such a twisted stance.

16 posted on 05/17/2004 8:36:38 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: JedForbes
Be like Mike.

17 posted on 05/17/2004 8:39:49 AM PDT by evets (God bless president George W. Bush)
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To: highlander_UW

These dudes are trying to find a doctor to payoff. I sure hope they pick the wrong one or the whole bunch of them drop dead at their next Sadr lecture!!


18 posted on 05/17/2004 8:46:26 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: JusticeTalion

It's Bush's fault... they never would have built this bomb if it were not for Bush.


19 posted on 05/17/2004 8:46:44 AM PDT by oblomov
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To: Dr. Frank fan; JusticeTalion


"There is never enough poof" ~< /Lanny Davis voice>
20 posted on 05/17/2004 8:48:03 AM PDT by motzman (Kerry's Haircut: Operation Shear Shrek)
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To: ex-Texan
We may have to capture Damascus to win Baghdad.
21 posted on 05/17/2004 8:48:06 AM PDT by dufekin (John F. Kerry. Irrational, improvident, backward, seditious.)
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To: JedForbes

I hope you are being sarcastic.

Now that they are starting to come out and use these weapons is proof that they were, and probably still are, in Iraq.

No matter what happens, people like you will never believe that this is a real threat.

Do you realize that most Islamic people, and yes I said most, would not care one bit if the United States was destroyed and removed from the face of the earth. It is in the Koran that they are to convert the entire world to Islam, either by the word or by the sword.

If you think these people are all "lovey dovey" for you, why don't you go and visit one of these areas where they are taking civilian hostages. Once they grab you, till them that you wish that we could all respect diversity, tell them my beliefs are as good as your beliefs.

I hope you realize that the Islamic religion does not respect diversity, in fact it will not allow diversity. The laws are written out in the Koran, and as a Islamic religion follower, you are not allowed to deviate from them at all. If you do, the punishment is death. It is that simple in Islamic culture.

So, please go to Iraq and spread the word of diversity and see how long it will take you lose your head.


22 posted on 05/17/2004 8:48:21 AM PDT by benson106
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To: smiley

Yes, I pray for their safety every day.


23 posted on 05/17/2004 8:51:36 AM PDT by tob2 (Old Fossil and proud of it!)
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To: JedForbes
How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside?

We don't but does it really matter where it came from? It's in Iraq now.

24 posted on 05/17/2004 8:51:53 AM PDT by swheats
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To: evets

I dislike Michael Moore intensely!


25 posted on 05/17/2004 8:53:35 AM PDT by tob2 (Old Fossil and proud of it!)
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To: ex-Texan

Right. And what about the stuff that almost blew up and killed thousands in Jordan? Tons of it supposedly was trucked in from Syria. And before that it was in Iraq. The case is closed except for idiots who refuse to admit the truth.


26 posted on 05/17/2004 8:54:55 AM PDT by WestSylvanian
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To: JusticeTalion

How many count as proof?

This is a good question. However, when the trucks were found, our military said had been used as mobil chemical labs, it was considered no big deal. I seem to recall there was also an instance when 17 mortars containing mustard gas remnants were also found in Iraq, but that too was dismissed as "no big deal".

We could have found an entire cave of WMDs with Saddam Hussein inside with them and the left would say this is no big deal. The left would demand an investigation claiming the Bush administration had planted them.


27 posted on 05/17/2004 8:57:36 AM PDT by ChevyZ28 (Most of us would rather be ruined by praise, than saved by criticism.)
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To: JedForbes
How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside?

No way to "know" for sure, but the circumstances argue against that. Based on the way it was used, the guys who set it probably did not know it was Sarin. Absent the rotation imparted from firing it from artillery, you don't get the mixing necessary to activate the stuff.

If they believed it to be just an ordinary artillery round, there's no need to go to Syria to get one of those. They're stockpiled in lots of places in Iraq. The facts suggest these clowns have some old Iraqi bunker with some of these things, and grabbed this one, and set it up without knowing what it was.

If you assume that it was a known WMD imported from Syria, you'd have to assume that the people who provided it know something about it, and would instruct the recipients as to its employment. But that doesn't square with the manner in which it was employed.

28 posted on 05/17/2004 8:58:34 AM PDT by XJarhead
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To: JedForbes

Iraqi defector Gazi George, a scientist who worked on Hussein's wmd programs, was interviewed on Fox this morning practically guaranteeing that more will be found.


29 posted on 05/17/2004 8:58:40 AM PDT by driftless ( For life-long happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: benson106

Err... HELLO???????????

I'm am a proud republican and bush voter, and I supported the removal of saddam wholeheartedly. All I asked was a question - which given the lack so far of stockpiles, and the amount of foreign arabs in Iraq, and the fact that a lot of neighboring countries have WMDs, doesn't seem totally beyond the bounds of reason to ask.

Unfortunately, it is the over-reaction of some of our fellow republicans to questioning/debate (even if you do think it's a stupid question, not everyone might) that shed us in a bad light with a lot of people. You are right that some people will never be 'converted' to realizing the threat but I am not one of them. And it's pretty unhelpful to suggest that asking this type of question makes me automatically a terrorist sympathiser or at least anti-US which is basically what you infer. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I agree that it's the greatest possibility of it coming from Iraq. I'm just saying that it's not a vanishingly small probability that it came from outside - in fact I'd be much MORE concerned if this was the case as it would mean the terrorists are able to transport more easily than I imagined. Maybe it even came from Syria????? Isn't that outside iraq? Does this suggestion suddenly make me a peacenik?

Next time please think before you attack.


30 posted on 05/17/2004 9:02:42 AM PDT by JedForbes
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To: JedForbes
JedForbes, Welcome to Free Republic! ;^)

31 posted on 05/17/2004 9:05:23 AM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: CurlyDave

I noticed that too.


32 posted on 05/17/2004 9:11:13 AM PDT by 31R1O
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To: JedForbes


... though now that I see it was artillery shell (first time I read the story it was saying a roadside bomb) I'd have to agree it almost certainly IS from inside, or at least a syrian import. Al-qaeda (etc.) has been building a good deal of capability in chemical weapons as bombs but not as far as I know as military equipment, so certainly looks more like ex-saddam material.


33 posted on 05/17/2004 9:13:16 AM PDT by JedForbes
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To: CurlyDave
I think his question is legitimate despite his apparent political motivations.

The answer is that chemical rounds have a relatively small bursting charge meant to open the casing, the U.S. version blows off the base plate, and let the chemicals disperse over as wide an area as possible. As such, they leave behind large pieces of metal. The origin of the shell and its contents can be determined from the information markings on the recovered fragments. Let's wait and see where the round originated.

The reasons why I believe it originated in Iraq are manifold. However, the first is what foreign country would risk interception during transportation or identification after use?

The second is that if this attack was planned and executed by people with enough juice to get chemical weapons from a foreign government, then we are fighting against incompetents since the target of the attack was not nearly as valuable as the weapon used, and I don't think we a fighting incompetents. It is more likely this was an unintended use of chemicals by individuals unaware of what they were using.

There are more reasons, but I think these two are sufficient to doubt that the chemical weapons came from outside Iraq.
34 posted on 05/17/2004 9:17:59 AM PDT by Poodlebrain
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To: JedForbes
"I'm am a proud republican and bush voter...

Let me correct your sentence for ya.:
>"I am a proud Republican, and a President Bush supporter."

"Does this suggestion suddenly make me a peacenik?"

NO.
Please forgive those of us who are skeptical of newbies who come in and make statements like you just did. Usually they are disruptive trolls. So the response you got was a natural one.

"Maybe it even came from Syria????? Isn't that outside iraq?

Yes, maybe it came from Syria...and maybe it came to Syria, via Iraq? Very possible, no?

But don't you think it's possible that Saddam diseminated some bio/chem agents to his allies, and Baathist party loyalists? More likey than not, (imo).

35 posted on 05/17/2004 9:18:56 AM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: driftless

bump


36 posted on 05/17/2004 9:20:38 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: JedForbes

Please forgive me. I did not know what your stance was on the issues. Now that I know where you are coming from, I can and do respect you for asking the question.

We don't know where they came from, but if neighboring countries have these weapons, then it is very likely that Iraq had them, maybe not for terrorism, but self-defense. So I believe that it is very likely that they are from Iraqi stockpiles.


37 posted on 05/17/2004 9:21:37 AM PDT by benson106
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To: JusticeTalion

We could find the mother load of "nerve gas" and these freaking liberals would claim we planted it just to get the focus off "dirty" pictures.


38 posted on 05/17/2004 9:30:02 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: FBD
"I'm am a proud republican and bush voter... Let me correct your sentence for ya.: >"I am a proud Republican, and a President Bush supporter." "Does this suggestion suddenly make me a peacenik?" NO. Please forgive those of us who are skeptical of newbies who come in and make statements like you just did. Usually they are disruptive trolls. So the response you got was a natural one.

Thanks FBD.

I appreciate the editorial work too.

From that perspective I guess it makes more sense (the newbie thing etc.). I should have prefaced my post with saying that I support the President.

With regard to the outside/inside iraq issue, I imagine in all probability you are right. It's more that I'm becoming very concerned by our apparent inability or at least slowness in getting the foreign arabs out of iraq or at least under control. They are in there stirring up the situation; and these are guys who imo are much more dangerous than the ex-saddamites - they are religious fanatics and al-qaeda types. These are the guys who really want to wipe us out (not just in iraq like the baathists, but everywhere).

I've always thought that the WMD, violation-of-UN-resolutions reason was a bit of a waste of time; the only good reason imo to go in was to boot out Saddam and bring democracy to a brutalized people. There was so much harping on about it on both side of the 'debate' that I think we sometimes missed the real issue. So I suppose that probably influences my skepticism of when we see some chemicals or whatever and turn around and say "see we were right" - finding WMDs or not doesn't change the fact that we did the right thing in removing an evil tyrant. [not that I'm saying this is your point, but just as an overall comment to some of the other things I've seen written].

Anyway... thanks for the comment and advice.

39 posted on 05/17/2004 9:33:36 AM PDT by JedForbes
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To: JedForbes

Thanks for the reply, FRiend, and this time, a cordial: Welcome! :)

Hope to chat with you more in the future.

Regards.


40 posted on 05/17/2004 9:37:08 AM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: CurlyDave

Good afternoon Jeb. Welcome to the forum. It's your ball.


41 posted on 05/17/2004 9:42:34 AM PDT by gathersnomoss
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To: Sacajaweau
These dudes are trying to find a doctor to payoff. I sure hope they pick the wrong one or the whole bunch of them drop dead at their next Sadr lecture!!

From what I've heard on the news, it's not very likely they will have too many problems. One expert was saying that the artillery shells were one of the safest ways to store the Sarin because it was kept in binary format.

Also, the reason why it didn't set off a huge cloud was that the shell is designed to be fired out of an artillery piece, and without that process the binary agents didn't mix very well.

The DUmmies are apparently complaining that it isn't significant because more people didn't die. Typical leftist ghouls, they aren't happy unless lots of people die.

42 posted on 05/17/2004 9:56:38 AM PDT by highlander_UW (A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. - Robert Frost)
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To: mvpel
Even a significant nerve gas attack at this stage would be no guarantee that the agent used was originally made or stored in Saddam-era Iraq.

A fine example of Bush-hating Democrat cognitive dissonance at work.

No kidding. If these were created by Al Qaeda and imported to be used against our troops it wouldn't have been utilized so poorly in binary form in an Iraqi artillery shell...but hey, logic and Dimocrat are mutually exclusive terms.

43 posted on 05/17/2004 10:00:24 AM PDT by highlander_UW (A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. - Robert Frost)
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To: JedForbes

What I want to know is, what does Lenin's useful fools over at DU, the liberal media, the DNC, the French, Russians, Germans, the UN and JOHN F'ING KERRY have to say about it?

I think everyone of them owes President Bush an apology. Wouldn't you agree?


44 posted on 05/17/2004 10:02:46 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (Only difference between the liberals and the Nazis is that the liberals love the Communists.)
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To: JedForbes

What I want to know is, what does Lenin's useful fools over at DU, the liberal media, the DNC, the French, Russians, Germans, the UN and JOHN F'ING KERRY have to say about it?

I think everyone of them owes President Bush an apology. Wouldn't you agree?


45 posted on 05/17/2004 10:02:49 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (Only difference between the liberals and the Nazis is that the liberals love the Communists.)
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To: Poodlebrain
Poodlebrain said: "I don't think we a fighting incompetents. "

I disagree. Saddam lives in a cell and eats only what we provide. If this was his intention, then that is a strange strategy.

Sadr lives, I believe, because political concerns have slowed our response and weakened our resolve to eliminate those opposed to us.

One possible explanation for what happened is that there is a splintering of opposition power in Iraq and some of the groups, badly managed and led, have decided to use such weapons to create a panic on our side.

Poisonous gases are very difficult to use effectively as anything other than a weapon of terror. In WWI, allied troops were cooped up in fixed entrenchments and made themselves targets. My guess is that the Iraqi terrorists are unable to deploy these agents any more effectively than we are seeing.

I don't know the condition of the thousands in Japan who were injured by the sarin attack, but there were only a dozen killed. This is much smaller than the explosions accomplished in Spain with a similar setting.

46 posted on 05/17/2004 10:04:29 AM PDT by William Tell (Californians! See "www.rkba.members.sonic.net" to support California RKBA.)
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To: JedForbes
How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside?

The same way I know oral sex is sex or lying under oath is perjury.

47 posted on 05/17/2004 10:04:54 AM PDT by Coop (Freedom isn't free)
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To: JedForbes
How do you know it wasn't brought in from outside? There are hundreds/thousands of foreign fighters in the country since the fall of Saddam, some of them Al-Qaeda linked, and many of whom have the capability/contacts to procure all sorts of chemical weapons. Don't forget it's been well over a year that these guys have been inside iraq.

Even a significant nerve gas attack at this stage would be no guarantee that the agent used was originally made or stored in Saddam-era Iraq.

Your lack of logic is an impeccable example of a Dimocrat. So you're suggesting that Al Qaeda made Sarin gas and installed it in an Iraqi artillery shell and then transported it to Iraq from who knows where only to be used in a way that would not properly mix the binary agent thus making the whole effort pointless, is that correct?

BTW, welcome to the board, I see you signed up today to offer this poorly considered opinion. Do you agree that it just may actually be an Iraqi artillery shell with Iraqi Sarin agent in it?

Or are you afraid that if proof of WMD's is found that the US will be vindicated in the eyes of the world? Now that would be bad, wouldn't it?!

48 posted on 05/17/2004 10:07:16 AM PDT by highlander_UW (A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. - Robert Frost)
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To: Poodlebrain

So if we combine this artillery shell with the illegal longe range delivery systems that were found last year, we basically have a missile with Sarin that could potentially hit Tel Aviv.

If Iraq produced Sarin I would be willing to bet that they could fit it on one of those missiles.



49 posted on 05/17/2004 10:09:13 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (Only difference between the liberals and the Nazis is that the liberals love the Communists.)
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To: JedForbes
I'm am a proud republican and bush voter, and I supported the removal of saddam wholeheartedly. All I asked was a question - which given the lack so far of stockpiles, and the amount of foreign arabs in Iraq, and the fact that a lot of neighboring countries have WMDs, doesn't seem totally beyond the bounds of reason to ask.

Next time please think before you attack.

I just read down to this message. If I've misjudged your intentions I apologize. Your question matches the sort of accusations being touted on the Leftist message boards combined with the fact that you just signed up today smells like trolling. It's not uncommon. Just so you understand where people are coming from.

50 posted on 05/17/2004 10:10:16 AM PDT by highlander_UW (A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. - Robert Frost)
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