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Islam and Democracy: The Impossible Union
The Sunday Times [UK] ^ | May 23, 2004 | Amir Taheri

Posted on 05/23/2004 8:29:20 PM PDT by quidnunc

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To: Klaus D. Deore

As I read it the author's point is that while the word is familiar to the Muslim world - the concept is not - I guess his prrof that the Muslim world knows what democracy is even while rejecting it is that their word for democracy is the same as the Greek. Maybe it's a stretch to put it in that way.


21 posted on 05/23/2004 9:13:16 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: umgud

The Turks, Iranians, and Israelis are the only non-Arabs in the Middle East.


22 posted on 05/23/2004 9:14:28 PM PDT by freedom44
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To: jocon307
but they are miles ahead of other Islamic countries.

That's because up until 450 years ago, Turkey, as the former seat of the eastern Roman empire, was Christian. The fall of Constantinople in 1453 is why the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches are still at odds.

The only other advanced Islamic country is Iran. As we've seen, the majority of people there desire a secular government, but are being suppressed by the mullahs.

The Arabs are nothing but primitive neanderthals. If it wasn't Islam, they'd have come up with some other perverted theology as a cover for their profound male/sexual insecurities.

23 posted on 05/23/2004 9:15:45 PM PDT by Snerfling
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To: Destro
when the Turkish military allowed a free vote the Islamists won.

Yea, but theyre not your grandpa's Islamists. Theyre more like Christian Democrats; western Turkey (ie the functional part of Turkey) would never permit going back to the 10th century.

24 posted on 05/23/2004 9:23:04 PM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: quidnunc
Borrowing from Laroui, statements such as, “Islam and democracy are incompatible,” or, “Islam is intrinsically, while any other religions are only occasionally, fundamentalist,” mean nothing more than “Liberalism contradict Dogmatism,” which is true and trivial. A pure idea, potent as it might have been in the past, influential as it may still be at present, cannot by itself prevent a people from adopting liberalism (in respect to conservative Islam) and democracy.

Actually a significant part of Islamic Law is derived from the consensus of the Islamic community called Ijma. I don’t know about you, but making laws based on community consensus sounds pretty democratic to me.

Another part of the Islamic law making was called Ijtihad, or analogy. According to Wikipedia: ijtihad (Arabic, original meaning "struggle") is a technical term of the Islamic law and means the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the sources of the law, the Quran and the Sunna. The opposite of ijtihad is taqleed, imitation. The person who applies ijtihad, the mujtahid, must be a scholar of Islamic law. Think of ijtihad as of debate, only religious:)

Both Ijma and Itjihad went out of practice between 10th and 13th centuries. There has been much talk in the liberal Islam circles of opening up the “Gates of Itjihad” to easy Democracy and Liberty into Islamic countries.
25 posted on 05/23/2004 9:26:41 PM PDT by eladamry
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To: umgud

The arguement was that Islam was incompatible with democracy. Race and or nationality wasn't an issue here but perhaps it should be. I know the Turks aren't Arabs.


26 posted on 05/23/2004 9:26:47 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: Snerfling

"If it wasn't Islam, they'd have come up with some other perverted theology as a cover for their profound male/sexual insecurities."

Yes, you are likely correct. There is something very strange about their absolute dread of women. Very peculiar. I don't know why women don't leave that religion in droves.


27 posted on 05/23/2004 9:28:14 PM PDT by jocon307 (The dems don't get it, the American people do.)
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To: eladamry

Are we making progress? When do the Islamists give up terrorism?


28 posted on 05/23/2004 9:48:50 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Nonstatist

To repress religion, though, has its own faults.

I dont have a good answer to this dilemma but would just point out that Turkey is far from a true western-style democracy. Their military have the 'right' to engage in coups for the sake of the country's unity.

It's as if the Marines not the Supreme Court were the ultimate arbiter of the law of the land (hmmm, on second thought, ....).


29 posted on 05/23/2004 10:00:28 PM PDT by WOSG (Peace through Victory! Iraq victory, W victory, American victory!)
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To: JeepInMazar
Yes, and it is why Americans must demand legislation banning Islam in the USA, it's not a religion, but a death cult, and openly preaches against, not only fundamental human rights, but Constitutional rights as well.
30 posted on 05/23/2004 10:08:47 PM PDT by BOOTSTICK
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To: Jim Robinson
“Are we making progress?”
The question should be are they making progress? I don’t know, though I would like to think that we are making progress in our democracy.

“When do the Islamists give up terrorism?”
You mean when Islamic Fundamentalists will give up terrorisms? Probably when they stop being fundamentalist. To address you original question: I believe Muslims will give up terrorism when they gain personal liberty and security (economical and physical). As for fighting, they will stop fighting when kids stop squabbling over toys at play grounds, about the same times pigs grow wings and fly.
31 posted on 05/23/2004 10:13:12 PM PDT by eladamry
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To: Snerfling
Bad history alert! That's because up until 450 years ago, Turkey, as the former seat of the eastern Roman empire, was Christian. The fall of Constantinople in 1453 is why the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches are still at odds.

NO. Most of Turkey was captured by Islamic Saracens, along with most of the Byzantine empire, as early as 650AD. The Ottomans came later by a few centuries to rule most of Asia Minor, and by 1000AD, the formerly great Byzantine empire was a rump state. Constaninople held on because it was magnificently guarded and impossible to seige, due to its sea approaches, great city walls and the terrain. But the advent of gunpowder changed that, and the Ottomans tooks Constaninople in 1400s.

And Destro can remind you that the ethnic Greeks of Turkey that remained under the ottoman rule were finally driven out in the 1920s under Turkey's nationalistic 'cleansing'.

The only other advanced Islamic country is Iran. As we've seen, the majority of people there desire a secular government, but are being suppressed by the mullahs. The early Caliphates were quite advanced, they borrowed knoledge from Christian syriacs/assyrians and so learned the wisdom of the ancient greeks and others; so was the tolerant Moorish empire that ruled parts of spain from 700s to 1300s... The period of 700-1000AD, Islam was at its civilizational apex while Europe was in the barely literate dark ages. When the Christians took Toledo from the Moors(1085AD), the Europeans "discovered" Aristotle, previously bottled up in a few dusty books in a few monastaries. From 1100AD on,Europe advanced while the lands under Islam did not. The rest, as they say, is history.

Dont confuse the current status with historical worth... countries like Egypt were the superpowers of 1500BC. From 50BC onwards, though, they've been the pawns of others (including various Arab invaders).

32 posted on 05/23/2004 10:14:31 PM PDT by WOSG (Peace through Victory! Iraq victory, W victory, American victory!)
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To: WOSG
To repress religion, though, has its own faults.

We're not talking about suppression, we're talking about reformation; injecting it with humanism, just as Christianity and Judaisn "grew up".

Lets say goodbye to the 10th century, where the Koran is interpreted literally and women are chattel and men get the hands chopped off for stealing an apple, and so on.

Oh, and Turkey is not all the way there, but theyre not too far behind with respect for the law, property, and the rest. Tunisua, also, is fairly civilized. It can be done, even in that part of the world.

33 posted on 05/23/2004 10:21:44 PM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: jocon307
I don't know why women don't leave that religion in droves.

'Cause they're just as screwed up. Such a pity that these primitives can reach out and 'touch' us. It would be so much nicer to just contain them in their own special little hell hole out in the desert. Alas, ain't no use sticking our heads in the sand, so here we are, taken to the (their) streets.

34 posted on 05/23/2004 10:23:13 PM PDT by Snerfling
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To: quidnunc

Islam is not compatible with DEMOCRACY! That is a fact that no one can ignore!
Islam is a very political religion and it wants to meddle in POLITICS. That is why It is dangerous!


35 posted on 05/23/2004 10:24:29 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (John ''Fedayeen" sKerry - the Mullahs' regime candidate)
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To: quidnunc
How did overwhelmingly Hindu India, with its rigid caste system, develop into a thriving, free, and relatively peaceful republic? Certainly if the Indians could accept equality, so can the Muslims.
36 posted on 05/23/2004 10:27:21 PM PDT by dufekin (John F. Kerry. Irrational, improvident, backward, seditious.)
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To: mdmathis6
Turkey isn't exactly what I would call a free country; witness the slaughter and repression of the Kurds in recent years. But Freedom House considers Senegal and Mali free countries, and they are overwhelmingly Muslim.
37 posted on 05/23/2004 10:28:43 PM PDT by dufekin (John F. Kerry. Irrational, improvident, backward, seditious.)
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To: dufekin

Hinduism is less domination-oriented than Islam.


38 posted on 05/23/2004 10:32:46 PM PDT by Sofa King (MY rights are not subject to YOUR approval http://www.angelfire.com/art2/sofaking/index.html)
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To: dufekin

I agree in regards to the ethnic strife in Turkey. They seem to have had problems with Armenians,Greek Cypriots, and...Kurds over the years. It's like..."Turkey's for Turks but not for ye" when it comes to representative democracy!


39 posted on 05/23/2004 11:39:43 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: GOP_Initiative

200 years ago Americans lived in a Constitutional republic ( as we would like to continue to do so)....an idealistic republican is one who would wish for us to forego democracy and persist with our constitutional republic


40 posted on 05/23/2004 11:47:47 PM PDT by jnarcus
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