Islam and Democracy: The Impossible Union

The Sunday Times [UK] ^ | May 23, 2004 | Amir Taheri

[jnarcus]

The US does acknowledge democracy as a reasonable form of government. We are a constitutional republic with our inalienable freedoms granted by our Creator acknowledged by the government. The government is thought to be not the grantor if rights rather that God is...and that ain't democracy...God save us from democracy ( ie mob rule)..What do you think this is France?

[jnarcus]

NO not fundamentalists...all of Islam. If you are a good Muslim then you follow and accedpt the Koran...there is no room in there for females who are not Muslims...they are considered slaves. Killing Jews and CHristians and any nonbeliever is not only acceptable it is encouraged. You make the same insane arguments that the so called Palestinians do when they say we will quit killing innocent civilians when we get a state...that's historical BS and you know it. Islam is EVIL always has been always will be. Islam means submission and I will not submit so what does the Koran suggest why killing me of course. No where in the Koran is there a mention of forgiveness or mercy or compassion for your fellow humans. You will not win your argument here for we know who the enemy is and what they want to do.

[Justa]

"How did overwhelmingly Hindu India, with its rigid caste system, develop into a thriving, free, and relatively peaceful republic? Certainly if the Indians could accept equality, so can the Muslims."

A: Through colonization by a thriving, free and relatively peaceful republic. The last 55 years of Indian independence may well be a reflection of English imperialism more than anything inherent to their culture. Most post-colonial nations revert back to their pre-imperial societies which, for the most part, are anything but egalitarian.

[Siamese Princess]

Islam does not allow Muslims to leave Islam. Former Muslims are called murtad and, according to Islamic law, should be killed. Islam is an ideology which is imcompatible with the United States Constitution.

Muslims demand the right to proselytize to non-Muslims in non-Muslim lands and for full legal equality. The ultimate goal, of course, is domination.

A wise Frenchman said, in the 19th century, that, "When I am the weaker, I ask you for my freedom because that is your principle; when I am the stronger, I will take away your freedom because that is my principle."

[Siamese Princess]

Then you need to secularize the country and shove Islam into the background, like theyve done in Turkey. Say goodbye to the 10th century, for starters.

Turkish secularism is enforced by the military. But how secular is the population outside of a few major cities? There recently was an article on FR about "honor killings" in Turkey. I had no idea that honor killings were common in Turkey -- amongst the Arabs and Pakistanis, yes, but not the Turks. I didn't think they were that primitive-minded.

[tkathy]

Freedom of information via the internet will eventually revolutionize Islam, and a lot of other ideologies as well.

[azhenfud]

"The word siassah, now used as a synonym for politics, initially meant whipping stray camels into line."

That stray camel, Richard Morgan, just received a nice siassah, didn't he?

[rrrod]

RINO's be wery wery careful...we are watching ya...got that Mrs Dole?

[razoroccam]

That is because India is dominated by Hindus who are, despite the caricature of the rigid caste systed, broad minded and progressive. Contrast that to Pakistan, a country created from the same ancestry, with its myriad coups and dictatorships, thanks to Islam.

[eladamry]

“NO not fundamentalists...all of Islam. If you are a good Muslim then you follow and accedpt the Koran...there is no room in there for females who are not Muslims...they are considered slaves.”

Uhm, that is the difference between fundamentalist Islam, and just Islam. You don’t have to follow every single tradition that got mixed into Islam over the ages. Islam is no more inherently misogynistic than other organized religions. Just look at these verses from the bible: "Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14) Would you say that Christianity and women’s rights are incompatible?

“Killing Jews and CHristians and any nonbeliever is not only acceptable it is encouraged.”

Most religions have been used to justify transgressions against other human beings. Shinto has been used by the Japanese to claim their superiority over their neighbors and allowed such travesties as Rape of Nanking to occur. Christianity and Judaism have a fair of share of blood on their hands too. Indeed the book of Deuteronomy has been used to justify the crusades. "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

“You make the same insane arguments that the so called Palestinians do when they say we will quit killing innocent civilians when we get a state...that's historical BS and you know it.”

I make insane arguments for Palestinians? Care to dig up a quote, or do you mean some one else when you say “you?”

” Islam is EVIL always has been always will be.”

Hear Hear, all religion is evil, depending on perspective, and the definition of Evil in a system of thought. What is your definition of Evil?

“Islam means submission and I will not submit so what does the Koran suggest why killing me of course.” Yeah, Islam does mean submission to the God, but it doesn’t mean that you should submit if you are not Muslim. I am not Muslim, and I do not submit. No one ever asked me to convert. Let them do what they will in their land, and do what ever they want among themselves.

” No where in the Koran is there a mention of forgiveness or mercy or compassion for your fellow humans.”

Are you just making stuff up? The Qur’an says several times that Allah is the most Merciful. In fact all the 114 Surahs i.e. chapters of the Glorious Qur’an except for Surah Taubah chapter 9, begin with the beautiful formula, Bismillah-hir-Rahman-nir-Rahim, which means, "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful".

“You will not win your argument here for we know who the enemy is and what they want to do.”

Who is the enemy and what is my argument?

[azhenfud]

"The Qur’an says several times that Allah is the most Merciful."

If that's a core principle of their Qur'an, why do the immammums not teach that from their masques?

[azhenfud]

Oh, BTW, in response to: "Who is the enemy and what is my argument?":::

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1052520/posts

[Zack Nguyen]

Nor is there mention of such words as government and the state in the Koran.

Very interesting. I wonder if that is because there is no difference in function between "church and state" in Islam. Amongst Islamists, the state is expected to enforce Islamic purity amongst the populace. Thus we have vicious persecution of Christians in virtually every Islamic state.

[Freebird Forever]

Islam is an ideology which is imcompatible with the United States Constitution.

Agree completely.

Forced submission is diametrically opposed to free will and liberty. They can't both exist and flourish in the same space.

[carton253]

Crap!

I was going to read this article until I saw that you were the one who posted it - excerpted and all.

Maybe you could put the following in your title.

"Posted by quidnunc who would rather excerpt than paste the full article."

That way I could just avoid all your posts.

[FrankR]

"Islam cannot embrace western liberalism because our notions of equality are antithetical to its the basis. "

There they go...the liberal media just can't get over the fact that NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO LIKE US...and liberals ESPECIALLY feel that way over people they FEAR.

But, for the record...I can't embrace western LIBERALISM either...

[Protagoras]

2 hundred years ago, America lived in a democracy based on equality for all men, except blacks and women.

Nonsense. This country has never been nor was never conceived of as a democracy. The founders rejected it out of hand. Indeed there were more people interested in a new monarchy than a democracy.

[schu]

I do not really care whether Islam is democratic, but it seems like a good idea to help them “civilize” their behavior and attitude toward the rest of the world. The issue is not democracy except in our approach to helping them learn to get along. As Pipes suggests, the answer is “moderate” Islam and that we should support these “moderates” in order to defeat the extremists. If its up to them, then it is time for them to get to work.

But the “moderate” Muslims better start getting some cajones real soon, take control of their religion, and defeat the “radicals”, or it’s going to be bad news for them. The US people who have supported this war to build a beachhead of democracy in Iraq and the Middle East are going get tired pretty soon if they don’t start getting some help on this effort. Yes, there are lots of forces aligned against success in Iraq, Media, Old Europe, Leftists, etc. But it sure would help if they would start cleaning up their own mess. Sooner or later we’re going to say, “see you later, glad we could help”, and get out of there.

If this effort is a failure, and the Islamists win, then it’s just a matter of time until something really bad happens, like a nuke in SF Bay or NY harbor. When that happens, we are going to go back to Iraq or wherever in the Middle and this time we aren’t going to be so nice. This would be bad news for Islam.

[quidnunc]

Crap! I was going to read this article until I saw that you were the one who posted it - excerpted and all. Maybe you could put the following in your title. "Posted by quidnunc who would rather excerpt than paste the full article." That way I could just avoid all your posts.

It's your loss, Sport, machts nix to me.

[Siamese Princess]

But the “moderate” Muslims better start getting some cajones real soon, take control of their religion, and defeat the “radicals”, or it’s going to be bad news for them.

The problem may be that genuinely moderate Muslims are reluctant to use force -- they may prefer friendly persuasion. The radicals will threaten and even kill, if need be.

I think that there is a saying from Texas that goes: "The only thing down the middle is a yellow line and dead armadillos."