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Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
World Net Daily ^ | 4/24/04 | Joe Kovacs

Posted on 05/23/2004 11:54:30 PM PDT by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

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To: risk
1776 was not a surrender.

In 1776 we were united

No, we weren't. It was all BRITAIN back then, remember? The British Colonies seceded from the British Crown. No unity at all. Britain was a divided empire.

It's also worth noting that the division was not evenly geographical. About 1/3 of the British-Americans supported the Crown (we call them Canadians today); conversely there was a large amount of support for our cause in Britain itself, from the common folk all the way to some of their top officers who resigned rather than fight us.

101 posted on 05/24/2004 11:44:35 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: BSunday
If these misguided souls wish to change things, there are other ways.

Name one that will work. We're all listening.

102 posted on 05/24/2004 11:50:02 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
What would be the currency in this new country? What would happen if say... the US government says fine you can leave, but all Federally insured banks can't loan money to residents of South Carolina. What happens to property values, the roads when the economic sanctions hit?

It is one thing to decide to take over a state and go about as hardcore as possible for state law, but the complications surrounding succession make that look like child's play.

If money is dried up, how long will people actually stay there? Ft. Jackson for example would be shut down, giving a body blow to Columbus' economy. All the federal agencies would shutter.

Another factor is that South Carolina is one of the top states in receiving back federal dollars. According to the Tax foundation, South Carolina receives $1.34 in federal spending for every $1.00 in taxes it pays. Texas for example just gets $.92 cents back, California $.76 cents.

Not to be trite, but South Carolina is in a sense a welfare state then.. They hand Washington around $21 billion a year, and receive $25 billion back roughly speaking.

They can slash spending, reduce salaries for governmental employees, but starting out a banking system from scratch with the open hostility of the US Government is a recipe for economic devastation.

103 posted on 05/24/2004 11:58:01 AM PDT by dogbyte12
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To: Rytwyng
Just for the record, it is not my job to point out to them how to make their agenda work. As a Christian my main job is to "fear God and keep His commandments". I don't think overthrowing the government (secession is the overthrow of the federal government within a particular state, is it not ?) falls into either of those categories. There are legal means to get things done. Just because they are failing doesn't mean there's something wrong with the system. Maybe they're just not organized enough. Is that the governments fault ?

But just for the record, and since you presumed to be speaking for everyone when you so wittily said "we're all listening", how about trying to live out the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5ff). Seems to me that would be a good start. Or is this just all about somebody trying to advance their personal agenda ? Some sort of Christian Jihad masked as a "Christian Exodus" (so-called) ?? We all are frustrated about the state of the world, but that doesn't give us the right to pick a state to make into our own personal little closet to separate ourselves from the evil neighbors. Christ expects us to live among these people and allow His reflection in our lives convert them. Becoming like Muslims or some Cult is not the answer.

104 posted on 05/24/2004 12:08:24 PM PDT by BSunday
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To: BSunday
I don't think overthrowing the government(secession is the overthrow of the federal government within a particular state, is it not ?)

Not necessarily. It's possible to secede by due process of law. However -- was the American Revolution wrong, in your understanding?

105 posted on 05/24/2004 12:15:16 PM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

been there, done that!

one civil war is more than enough.


106 posted on 05/24/2004 12:18:00 PM PDT by no_problema
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To: Rytwyng

No, the American Revolution was not wrong in my understanding. I view it to be a unique event in history though.


107 posted on 05/24/2004 12:19:47 PM PDT by BSunday
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To: olde north church

All I can say is numerous other posters and I have been on this forum for approx. three years warning folks about the reconquista movement with it's numerous nation-destroying elements and as far as I can tell, I've never once seen your name surface in these discussions. Where've you been....under a rock somewhere?.....and since it's obvious you're new to the debate, how about some fresh ideas to counter this invasion?

Hey amigo, I'm all in favor of making a stand from where I am in the Dallas area but there is one problem down here and that is most Christians don't know their history and worse yet they're being led by pastors whose only allegiance is to their precious IRS granted 501C-3 tax exempt status. That's why their sermons are seemingly odorless, colorless and tasteless....don't want to offend the powers that be at the IRS and possibly have all their tax benefits revoked doncha know.....don't know what Bible they preach from but I could've sworn there's something in there warning about man attempting to serve two masters.


108 posted on 05/24/2004 12:21:37 PM PDT by american spirit
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To: american spirit
most Christians don't know their history and worse yet they're being led by pastors whose only allegiance is to their precious IRS granted 501C-3 tax exempt status

Worth repeating.

109 posted on 05/24/2004 12:24:34 PM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: Diddle E. Squat
. . . Cheyenne and only allowed to meet in the dead of winter.

And then only when the meet OUTSIDE, WITHOUT A TENT or FIRE.

110 posted on 05/24/2004 12:25:55 PM PDT by RetiredArmy (We'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American Way! Toby Keith)
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To: Neville72
It may be a wild notion right now, but seriously, does anyone truly know of any other way to really stem the seemingly inexorable descent towards a radically secularist, European-style country.

I understand the sentiment entirely. I think it has, however, been proven that this is not the way to go about it.

How to prevent our country from going down the tubes? Frankly, I intend to fight for every square inch of it until we win. God and time are on our side. We know that our opponents are going to destroy themselves. We just need to help them along.

111 posted on 05/24/2004 12:35:57 PM PDT by mhx
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To: dogbyte12
Not to be trite, but South Carolina is in a sense a welfare state then.. They hand Washington around $21 billion a year, and receive $25 billion back roughly speaking.

I've always found it ironic that the states-rights loving, ruggedly-individualistic Red States are generally giant welfare queens. Military bases, cheap water and massive agricultural subsidies are the favorite drugs of many a Republican state.

112 posted on 05/24/2004 1:01:02 PM PDT by Modernman (Work is the curse of the drinking classes. -Oscar Wilde)
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To: BSunday
As a Christian I can't condone rebellion against authority

Respectfully, Jesus rebelled against the moneychangers at the Temple.
When teaching biblical scriptures is considered hate speech and punishable by imprisonment, where will you draw the line?

113 posted on 05/24/2004 1:07:44 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: american spirit
"...how about some fresh ideas to counter this invasion?"
My first action would be to label what illegal aliens cost this country every year in medical, penal, translation and other social services as the "Illegal Alien Caretaker Tax". The total tax burden paid by TAXPAYERS to Fed, State and Local governments costs about 40% of the total annual tax budget. That would be my first step. Put it into those terms and how even after an individual returns to his/her native country, benefits are still paid.
Second action would be to remove automatic citizenship to all children of non-citizens born within US borders as a citizen. Amend it to children born in the course of citizenship application.
Third action, advise those currently in line for citizenship how although they came into the front door invited and welcomed to start a new life there are those who are breaking in through side windows and reaping greater rewards. If they point out illegals in their community, they will have their citizenship papers fast tracked.
Fourth action would be to shut down businesses on a per day basis for hiring illegals.
Fifth action, individuals who hired illegals would be forced to work community service.
That's just a start.
114 posted on 05/24/2004 1:21:56 PM PDT by olde north church (Do you want a president that eats bar-be-cue or a president that eats watercress?)
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To: Rytwyng
The state was chosen because a high % of the people already there, would be friendly to such a project.

Besides, liberals don't give a d@#% about our feelings when they take over OUR states.

I say this as a 40 year old native Californian who has watched my home state transformed from a paradise to a dump in my lifetime... and the liberals have offered no apologies. So if we clean up some other state and a few of them get upset, should I care?

Sorry that you don't like what happened to your state, but that doesn't warrant you and your friends' taking over the property of *another* state, does it? It might in fact be more prudent and even more Christian to try and affect change from within, mightn't it?

115 posted on 05/24/2004 1:22:00 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: Prime Choice
things are going to get really ugly really fast if any state attempts to secede from the Union.

Immanentizing the Eschaton. Nuthin wrong with that.
116 posted on 05/24/2004 1:28:59 PM PDT by johnb838 (When I hear "Allahu Akhbar" it means somebody is about to die.)
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To: risk

We need to try some simple civil disobedience. In Redwood California, for example, the ACLU has managed to cow the city government into removing the cross from the city seal. Now, why can't every automobile owner in the city place a sticker of the OLD seal on their automobile. And why couldn't the seal be placed anonymously all over the place? Put so many up that it doesn't matter what the CITY has on their seal, or what the ACLU wants, it's swamped by what the people want.

And in Alabama, why can't the citizens post signs with the Ten Commandments everywhere around and within the courthouse. Why couldn't they have chained themselves to the monument?

There are plenty of things that could be done. For myself, I'm going to the Rally for America on Monday, and I'm bringing my checkbook.


117 posted on 05/24/2004 1:35:17 PM PDT by johnb838 (When I hear "Allahu Akhbar" it means somebody is about to die.)
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To: Conservative4Ever
I have to agree with you...Texas would be a great choice, for all the reasons you stated. The one drawback is it's close proximity to Mexico. That could prove to be a problem with protecting the border. Just a thought.

That wouldn't be a problem! Praise god and pass the ammo!

118 posted on 05/24/2004 1:37:52 PM PDT by huck von finn
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To: Conservative4Ever
I have to agree with you...Texas would be a great choice, for all the reasons you stated. The one drawback is it's close proximity to Mexico. That could prove to be a problem with protecting the border.

No it wouldn't. Without federal meddling and nannying, we could make some real progress having a real border patrol.

What I would worry about is all the fags and perverts that would run to Texas to try to force the experiment to fail. They see Christians as the enemy and they'll take the opportunity to rub their immorality in our faces.

I'd suggest a v-e-r-y tall fence.

119 posted on 05/24/2004 2:29:37 PM PDT by Tall_Texan ("Vote Democrat - The Election Fraud Specialists.")
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To: huck von finn
Sorry that you don't like what happened to your state, but that doesn't warrant you and your friends' taking over the property of *another* state, does it?

Not "taking over" property... BUYING property, moving in, and voting just like everyone else does. Why is that okay for culture-wreckers to do, but not okay for us to do?

It might in fact be more prudent and even more Christian to try and affect change from within, mightn't it?

Sometimes working within the system is effective, and sometimes it is not. Much depends on whether the system wants to reform, or not. In the case of modern America, what we're seeing is not reform, but its exact opposite: a deliberate, conscious departure from righteousness in the face of strong, vocal, principled opposition. To quote the article, ""Christians have actively tried to return our entire land to its moral foundation for more than 20 years. We can categorically say that absolutely nothing has been achieved."

120 posted on 05/24/2004 2:57:35 PM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

How goes the campaign to move all the--I forget which group, Libertarians?-- to New Hampshire or Montana to dominate the state's politics? Hope the Christians pick a different state than the Libertarians or whatever because they would destroy each other. There wouldn't be anything left but a few scattered copies of Atlas Shrugged and cartoon pamphlets blowing around the wilderness.


121 posted on 05/24/2004 3:03:57 PM PDT by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle; All

Idaho? ;o)


122 posted on 05/24/2004 4:15:59 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: Agent47

>>> highest populations of blacks in the country.

If we are talking about seceding again -- the South will rise again -- this will give us a good opportunity to jump-start our economy. I do not view this as a problem.


123 posted on 05/24/2004 4:18:49 PM PDT by jojodamofo
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To: risk
In 1776 we were united:

Not really. Probably only 1/3 of the polutation supported independence.

124 posted on 05/24/2004 4:20:28 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: Condor51

I agree, SC is a poor choice.

Idaho or Wyoming are much better IMO.


125 posted on 05/24/2004 4:21:36 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: Tall_Texan
In addition, it was a former republic (some claim it still has an "out" clause after joining the union) and it has a lot of people that are already willing to secede from the union for other reasons.

And it has Pantex in Amarillo and NASA in Houston. Take those and the federal government will get REALLY nervous about trying to take Texas back.

126 posted on 05/24/2004 4:31:45 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (Resolve to perform what you must; perform without fail that what you resolve.)
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To: BSunday
No, the American Revolution was not wrong in my understanding. I view it to be a unique event in history though.

That's inconsistent. At least Dr. Norman Geisler (conservative Christian theologian and philosopher) is consistent enought to say that the American Revolution was "unjustified".

As a Christian you must take into account ALL the Biblical data, including the scriptural exceptions to governmental-authority-as-supreme.

In some respects, we have FAR more justification to independence than there was during the American Revolution. Around 40 million dead unborn children, gay marriage, the marxist-athiest domination in our country, the deletion of God from the public square.

Heck, we owe King George the third an apology for the enumerations of abuses in our Declaration of Independence if we think our present culture is more acceptable than what existed at the time of the American Revolution.

127 posted on 05/24/2004 4:34:39 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: LiteKeeper; nothingnew; sarasmom; AnnaZ; Saundra Duffy; notpoliticallycorewrecked; Cordova Belle; ..

bump. This is the correct thread.


128 posted on 05/24/2004 4:47:42 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: MarMema
Gee wonder why not Seattle?

I think WA state would be a good choice. It gets a rap about being liberal, but the truth is, there are something like 3 counties (the big cities) that vote liberal and the rest of the state votes conservative but simply doesn't have the population to outweigh the 3 big counties. It has coast land, on the Pacific Rim for trading and is one of the most beautiful states in the country.

129 posted on 05/24/2004 4:48:47 PM PDT by highlander_UW (Evil doesn't want to leave you alone. It wants to draw you in and force you into complicity. - Keyes)
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To: BSunday
Becoming like Muslims or some Cult is not the answer.

That's an unfair (and insulting) comment. First of all, if you read the article and/or checked out the web site you would see it is a peaceful route to secession that they are planning. The cultic MuSlims types are those who would sit idly by as unborn children are murdered.

130 posted on 05/24/2004 4:52:30 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Better make sure she does not have anything to say about it or you will end up like this


131 posted on 05/24/2004 4:57:53 PM PDT by BJungNan
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To: All

bump.


132 posted on 05/24/2004 5:56:53 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: All

bump.


133 posted on 05/24/2004 6:02:23 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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Comment #134 Removed by Moderator

To: MHGinTN

Opinion?


135 posted on 05/24/2004 6:05:07 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: All

bump 3.


136 posted on 05/24/2004 6:15:28 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: QuokkaPerth
if Kerry wins and brings in a DEM congress, it will get much more serious

How much more serious?

137 posted on 05/24/2004 6:25:13 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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Comment #138 Removed by Moderator

To: QuokkaPerth

But will those red state folks be willing to actually secede?


139 posted on 05/24/2004 6:28:33 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: tame; cpforlife.org
This sounds very much like sour grapes ... we Christians have avoided being counted in our actual numbers because we've avoided our voting responsibilities. Speaking out against evil allows those of a moderate persuasion to hear the 'other side of the issues overwhelmed by the PC welding secularists.

Now, after thirty plus years of abortion on demand serial killings averaging more than a million alive souls slaughtered per year in the specious name of 'a woman's right to choose', we face the truth that it is we Christians who have allowed our Republic to become a cesspool of secular humanism. Our response is supposed to be run away? Not hardly.

We're reaping what we have sown with our inaction. Time to get off our pious butts and vote the democrat/liberal/societal engineering socialist out of our offices, if we still have the numbers to effect change. Time to teach our children the godliness we've slacked from, in our 'christian schools' (read private Christian schools). If we do not, still we must remain to be the last remnants of the salt as the stew turns rancid.

When we vote the democrat party into the oblivion mode they deserve, time to raise up alternate candidates who will legislate on conservative terms and appoint subpreme Court Judges (so that branch of our government may once again be the Supreme Court) who will rule according to the actual Constitution, not the penumbras of crap being spewed forth now.

It would also help to impeach and remove a few of the judicial oligarchs! Leaving the Republic is tacit admission that we Christians have failed to exercise our responsibilities as sovereigns!

Finally, states such as Massatwosh!ts will spiral downward ever faster into chaos, if we leave the fools to their own socialist crap. Work in your own state to prevent recognition of the septic secular garbage those in liberal thrall create, and leave the fools to spiral downward into their own fecal pool.

140 posted on 05/24/2004 8:48:01 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I've been telling my husband that for a week now. Something's coming!


141 posted on 05/24/2004 9:36:49 PM PDT by hope (How far will your passion take you?)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

Like I said, creepy, I want all the liquor stores on the border and all the go-go bars!


142 posted on 05/24/2004 9:44:24 PM PDT by Central Scrutiniser (Sometimes getting some ain't worth having to sit through a Julia Robberts film.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

The Clinton's and their DNC cohorts would love to get Christians all in one state and do a Waco on them.


143 posted on 05/24/2004 9:48:31 PM PDT by hope (How far will your passion take you?)
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To: johnb838; Travis McGee; SJackson; Grampa Dave; yonif; Yehuda; stainlessbanner
We need to try some simple civil disobedience.

I think you're right. Unlike many here, I do believe our founding fathers intended separation of church and state. But I think the ACLU wants and has been achieving separation of nation and culture.

I think the Immigration Act of 1965 is a part of the problem, and it was clearly an intentional effort to bring those other than Judeo-Christians into our country. The only way to describe this change in our laws is "laboratory experiment."

In short, our elites didn't and don't know what they are doing. And they have no shame or regret. They were hoping that culture was synonymous with race; it simply isn't. Culture takes generations to assimilate. Culture entails values. Culture is often best transmitted with a catalyst of religion.

So yes, some civil disobedience is overdue. I would also ask those of you involved with churches to insist that they follow traditional teachings of morality. Despite my position that the marriage can and should be considered at a secular level as well as a religious one, with priests, pastors, reverends, and rabbis agreeing to break our civic laws, how can we expect our secular leaders to obey?

144 posted on 05/24/2004 10:05:47 PM PDT by risk
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
If they are serious, I swear my family and I will join them. No question. For now, I'm getting ready. A change is coming.

My father has been saying since 1973 where "America will not survive as a nation as we have known it." I think he's right when you think about the effort here, then factor in the Libertarian Free State Project, and so on. Maybe in a way, it would be better off, at the time of the founding of this nation, States were supposed to be more sovereign then they are now.
145 posted on 05/24/2004 10:16:11 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("Laws are the spider webs through which the big bugs fly past and the little ones get caught.")
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To: MHGinTN

I don't think secession would be "running away" (we'd still be on the same soil), but a regrouping and reconstitution of Christian folks into a more effective existence to protect our beliefs/values.


146 posted on 05/24/2004 11:37:08 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
This is silly. If very religious Christians don't want to associate with lefty secularists, there are far less extreme methods than seccession. For example, a Christian developer could form a private religious town.

Federal anti-discrimination laws would probably prevent de jure discrimination against secularists, but if a developer says "This town of 5,000 people is for God-fearing Christians. Our police will enforce strict blue laws, morality codes etc." I highly doubt non-Christians would choose to live in that town.

Once secluded in such a town, would it really matter if the state the town was located in permitted abortion or pornography or homosexual marriage... 50 miles away?? I highly doubt it would impact residents of such a town, or their children, at all.

Orthodox Jews and the Amish have been doing this for decades -- look at towns such as Monsey or Kiryas Joel in New York, for example. There's no reason Christians couldn't do the same.

147 posted on 05/24/2004 11:43:08 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew
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To: mhx
How to prevent our country from going down the tubes? Frankly, I intend to fight for every square inch of it until we win. God and time are on our side. We know that our opponents are going to destroy themselves. We just need to help them along.

Your going to have to do more than fight at the ballot box. Both the rats and the republicans are importing a population hostile to liberty. You will be outnumbered and have only 3 choices. Give up, seceede, or start shooting.

148 posted on 05/24/2004 11:51:53 PM PDT by rmmcdaniell
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To: ChicagoHebrew
there are far less extreme methods than seccession.

I disagree. Merely starting a commune or something would not address the problems Christians endure by the federal government.

149 posted on 05/24/2004 11:58:15 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: All

bump.


150 posted on 05/25/2004 12:36:23 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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