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Christians look to form 'new nation' within U.S.
World Net Daily ^ | 4/24/04 | Joe Kovacs

Posted on 05/23/2004 11:54:30 PM PDT by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I'm there....


151 posted on 05/25/2004 12:40:34 AM PDT by bellas_sister (" Senator, do you know there's a girl found dead in your car?")
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To: All

bump.


152 posted on 05/25/2004 12:48:21 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: tame
As a Christian you must take into account ALL the Biblical data, including the scriptural exceptions to governmental-authority-as-supreme.

Okay, so why don't you let me know where the government is forcing you to bow down to the emperor, as long as we are taking things in context. Or to follow another possible reason for rebellion, how is the government forcing you to be homosexual or aborting your babies, etc. ? The only exception to obeying the government is when they attempt to force you to do something sinful.

153 posted on 05/25/2004 6:17:30 AM PDT by BSunday
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To: tame
The cultic MuSlims types are those who would sit idly by as unborn children are murdered.

So your solution is to, what - pick up your toys and go home ?????? Is that what Jesus wants us to do ???

154 posted on 05/25/2004 6:19:24 AM PDT by BSunday
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To: BSunday
So your solution is to, what - pick up your toys and go home ?????? Is that what Jesus wants us to do ???

Since Jesus would like us to love the unborn children enough to protect them, then my solution would be to concentrate enough conservative Christians in one location (then secede from the union) so that abortion would be ended in that geographical part of the country where it now is allowed.

Insofar as picking up toys and going home, I'll leave that to the cowards who turn to failed solutions as unborn children are murdered by the millions.

155 posted on 05/25/2004 7:14:51 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: tame
If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Seceding from the union is only some wacko fantasy, not a solution. Therefore these people are part of the problem. Although they have at least drawn more attention to the issue. I will give them that, but there is only so far this idiotic secession thing is going to go. After that, what then ?
156 posted on 05/25/2004 7:18:55 AM PDT by BSunday (If you're not right, you're wrong.)
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To: stainlessbanner

Dixie Bump!


157 posted on 05/25/2004 7:20:31 AM PDT by TomServo ("D'oh!...I filled my pants, sir...In fact, I think I filled yours too.")
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To: BSunday
The only exception to obeying the government is when they attempt to force you to do something sinful.

And it is sinful not to protect innocent human life if you can do so (Rahab, Moses' mother, Jesus' parents, etc.). Loving your neighbor (even the unborn ones)is mandatory, and to love them is to protect them. I submit for your consideration a book that specifically deals with the ethics of what we're discussing in painstaking detail: Politically Correct Death by Christian Philosopher Francis Beckwith. (see especially his hypothetical dialogue between Socrates and a law enforcement officer regarding civil disobedience).

158 posted on 05/25/2004 7:23:33 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: BSunday
As a Christian I can't condone rebellion against authority, as God is the one who establishes the powers that be.

you can't be serious. There are no historical government worthy of rebellion? God sez shut up and take it, (Russians, Poles, Vietnamese, American Colonials, etc...)?

159 posted on 05/25/2004 7:23:43 AM PDT by Semaphore Heathcliffe
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To: BSunday
Seceding from the union is only some wacko fantasy, not a solution.

The wacko fantasy is to belief that everything will get better in our government as millions of babies are murdered, and to think of these millions of murders as not enough reason to divorce our government as the colonists had.

there is only so far this idiotic secession thing is going to go.

Funny. That's exactly what was said about those who wanted a Declaration of Independence in 1776.

160 posted on 05/25/2004 7:27:40 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: Semaphore Heathcliffe

bump.


161 posted on 05/25/2004 7:36:29 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: tame; All
I getting pretty tired of people comparing this to the Great American Revolution. The colonists were oppressed whereas nobody is denying you of your rights. Now I will go ahead and bring up "what about the rights of the unborn" for you and save you some time and mouse clicks. Well, last I heard your representatives were not refusing to take your calls, or blocking your emails. When they do, feel free to vote their sorry behinds out of office. The colonists did not have that option. End of Story. This wacko secession idea just doesn't compare.

I notice you haven't replied to the "when it fails, what then ?" Question. You KNOW it WILL fail. So what happens after that ?

162 posted on 05/25/2004 7:37:24 AM PDT by BSunday (If you're not right, you're wrong.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle
Well, darn! That makes two (2) states that are going to have to succeed from the Union, One for the Libertarians in the cold frozen North East and one for the Christians in the warm sandy South East. Could Start a fad.
163 posted on 05/25/2004 7:39:06 AM PDT by wingnuts'nbolts (Keep your eye on the donut not on the hole!!!)
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Comment #164 Removed by Moderator

To: BSunday
I getting pretty tired of people comparing this to the Great American Revolution.

It's WORSE than the colonists had it during the American Revolution. That's a fact.

The colonists were oppressed...

We are MORE oppressed than the Colonists were!

...whereas nobody is denying you of your rights.

What have you been smoking?!? My mother had a right to kill me before I was born, and as a Christian I barely have a right to breath in public schools, and I am a tax slave to the goverment, and you think my rights are not denied?!?

We're told we can't have prayer in public schools, Christians don't have as much rights as Radical Muslims do, in fact Christian are being forced into the closet as gays are coming out of the closet, the I.R.S....oh forget it, anybody who could make a comment as stuoid as that comment you made above is NOT going toget it.

last I heard your representatives were not refusing to take your calls, or blocking your emails.

Nazis took phone calls from Jews, too. It hardly meant they weren't killing them, too!

When they do, feel free to vote their sorry behinds out of office.

...the Supreme Court Justices are not taking my calls and I cannot vote them out of office.

The colonists did not have that option.

Nor do we. The Supreme Court has seen to it that their despotic power cannot be challenged.

I notice you haven't replied to the "when it fails, what then ?" Question. You KNOW it WILL fail. So what happens after that ?

I didn't repsond to it because it was a stuoid question, but I'll humor you. If we would have failed, then what? If my mom would not have ever had sex, then what? If We failed to stop Al Gore, then What? If the sky were green, then what? Well...it would be green. We would have failed trying to do the right thing, rather than succeeded at doing the wrong thing.

No offense, but you would need 27 promotions to be dense.

165 posted on 05/25/2004 8:08:34 AM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

If they get the Palmetto State, I hope it won't turn out like the Taliban's Afghanistan, with religious police, etc.

Using one of the original 13 to form a theocracy is ironic, to say the least.


166 posted on 05/25/2004 8:14:20 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: BSunday
The colonists were oppressed whereas nobody is denying you of your rights

Where have you been for the last 30 years?

167 posted on 05/25/2004 8:43:40 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: Rytwyng

Mississippi is a better choice. I saw a thread last week we are already considered the most pro life state in the union. Also it does have some oil reserves down south and well Haley Barbour for 6, like they gave Jeff Davis!


168 posted on 05/25/2004 9:04:56 AM PDT by Sybeck1 (Kerry: how can we trust him with our money, if Teresa won't trust him with hers!)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
I would pick Colorado myself.

You need ports.
A landlocked nation wouldn't be able to have the commerce without going through another country. That wouldn't be an option.

169 posted on 05/25/2004 9:09:23 AM PDT by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: Just another Joe

LOL. Good point.


170 posted on 05/25/2004 10:16:34 AM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Legislatures are so outdated. If you want real political victory, take your issue to court.)
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To: BSunday
why don't you let me know where the government is forcing you to bow down to the emperor

The emperor's name is Sodomy, and we are being forced to bow down (dare I say, bend over...) and proclaim our loyalty in schools and workplaces. Californication public schools require "gay" education from 1st grade, to cite just one example. Nobody is forcing us to BE homosexual, but they are working very hard to force us to APPLAUD it. It's not enough to tolerate it but disagree -- they won't allow us to even disagree with it.

171 posted on 05/25/2004 10:23:46 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: mhx
Oh yeah, that worked real well last time.

If at first you don't secede, try, try again.

(As my Union Army greatgreatgrandfather rolls over in his grave...)

172 posted on 05/25/2004 10:33:21 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: Rytwyng

Nobody is forcing you to agree with anything. If you don't like what is being taught in schools, then either be more active, use the legislative process, or homeschool.


173 posted on 05/25/2004 10:38:39 AM PDT by BSunday (If you're not right, you're wrong.)
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To: BSunday
As a Christian I can't condone rebellion against authority, as God is the one who establishes the powers that be

In that case, how do you deal with the fact that the powers that be (in the USA and quite a few other countries), were established by rebellions? If God raises up kings and setteth them down, then we MUST make room in our theology for the fact that God at times may proclaim that a certain government's time is over and ORDAIN rebellion against it.

In the Old Testament times, Jewish law held that a rebellion was justified if it had prophetic sanction -- and to name just 2 examples, the US rebellion against Britain and the Mexican rebellion against Spain were both supported from the pulpit.

174 posted on 05/25/2004 10:40:43 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: BSunday
Nobody is forcing you to agree with anything. If you don't like what is being taught in schools, then either be more active, use the legislative process, or homeschool

Activism has failed, legislative process has failed, and not everyone can afford to homeschool. (We can, but many can't.)

Nobody is forcing you to agree with anything.

The future is Canada. US liberals are ecstatic over the fact that it's now actually illegal to proclaim "homosexuality is a sin". They're very close to doing that here under the guise of "hate speech".

175 posted on 05/25/2004 10:44:52 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: Arthur McGowan

Impeachment would have been better.


176 posted on 05/25/2004 10:56:45 AM PDT by Dead Dog
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To: wingnuts'nbolts
Well, darn! That makes two (2) states that are going to have to succeed from the Union, One for the Libertarians in the cold frozen North East and one for the Christians in the warm sandy South East. Could Start a fad.
163 -wingnut-


______________________________________


The libertarian free state project wants to force the feds to acknowledge/respect individual rights & a states constitutional powers ~within~ the union.

This 'Christian' state would apparently have state powers infringe upon individual freedoms. -- Big difference..
177 posted on 05/25/2004 11:03:11 AM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: Quix

Until you get to Heaven, there's always the Upper Peninsula of Michigan . . .


178 posted on 05/25/2004 11:13:20 AM PDT by BraveMan
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To: Rytwyng

Move to Missisippi or Alabama? Is this before or after tort reform?

Move to South Carolina? Is this before or after Lou Holtz?

Anyway, seems like I recall Nehemiah being willing to go back to the ruins of Jerusalem to rebuild the walls. I guess he thought relocating Judiasm to a nice peaceful spot in Persia wasn't much of an option.


179 posted on 05/25/2004 11:23:53 AM PDT by JusPasenThru (42 muscles to frown, 17 muscles to smile, but 0 muscles just to sit there and look dumb.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew; tame; yall
This is silly. If very religious Christians don't want to associate with lefty secularists, there are far less extreme methods than seccession. For example, a Christian developer could form a private religious town.

Some condo type planned communities, where ALL property is owned by the association, [save the inside of the residence], have this type of political control built in. - Non-conforming residents can be evicted & their property rights bought back by the association.
The majority rules in these communitarian communities.

Federal anti-discrimination laws would probably prevent de jure discrimination against secularists, but if a developer says "This town of 5,000 people is for God-fearing Christians. Our police will enforce strict blue laws, morality codes etc." I highly doubt non-Christians would choose to live in that town.

Such associations cannot have 'police'. A security force, sure, but a county sheriff would have to be in control of criminal law enforcement. The only real police power a condo association has is banishment.

Once secluded in such a town, would it really matter if the state the town was located in permitted abortion or pornography or homosexual marriage... 50 miles away?? I highly doubt it would impact residents of such a town, or their children, at all.

Exactly. If abortion was against asso. rules, the woman involved could be evicted. -- IE, literally 'thrown out of town'.

Orthodox Jews and the Amish have been doing this for decades -- look at towns such as Monsey or Kiryas Joel in New York, for example. There's no reason Christians couldn't do the same.

Yep, as long as all the rules were clearly disclosed, and everyone legally agreed to abide by them, such a totalitarian 'town' would be legal, imo.

{It could also be a hell on earth.}

180 posted on 05/25/2004 11:35:51 AM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: RightWhale
How goes the campaign to move all the--I forget which group, Libertarians?-- to New Hampshire or Montana to dominate the state's politics? Hope the Christians pick a different state than the Libertarians or whatever because they would destroy each other. There wouldn't be anything left but a few scattered copies of Atlas Shrugged and cartoon pamphlets blowing around the wilderness.

Destroy each other? Hardly. Many of the people participating in the Free State Project are Christians. At their "Porcupine Fest" scheduled for late June in New Hampshire, there is a non-denominational church service on the schedule for all the Christians in attendance. Funny...even some CHRISTIANS can appreciate the concept of freedom.

181 posted on 05/25/2004 11:48:40 AM PDT by who knows what evil? (Under the personal care of the Great Physician...full coverage.)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

As soon as they all get there, they'll start fighting amongst themselves regarding who will be in charge. Ha! It'll never work.


182 posted on 05/25/2004 11:52:23 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (Save Terri Schiavo!!!)
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To: JusPasenThru
Anyway, seems like I recall Nehemiah being willing to go back to the ruins of Jerusalem to rebuild the walls. I guess he thought relocating Judiasm to a nice peaceful spot in Persia wasn't much of an option

You have to remember, though, that when judgement fell, it was God's will for them to go to Persia for a season. Eventually, they got to retkake their homeland.

183 posted on 05/25/2004 11:56:13 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: tpaine
Yep, as long as all the rules were clearly disclosed, and everyone legally agreed to abide by them, such a totalitarian 'town' would be legal...{It could also be a hell on earth.}

I won't move there unless they amend their constitution to outlaw community associations.

184 posted on 05/25/2004 11:57:56 AM PDT by Rytwyng (we're here, we're Huguenots, get used to us)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

Count me in. I am getting sick and tired of the United Sodoms of Gomorah!


185 posted on 05/25/2004 12:08:18 PM PDT by broadsword (Liberalism is the societal AIDS virus, that helps our enemies to kill us.)
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To: Rytwyng; yall

I think rational people should form associations to build gated communities of this sort, and give fanatics special deals to move into them..
-- Then the rest of us could get on with living in liberty.


186 posted on 05/25/2004 12:28:04 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: tpaine
Take a look at Kiryas Joel in NY. The entire TOWN (not just a mere condo association) is Hassidic Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

There are 2,229 households out of which 79.5% have children under the age of 18 living with them, 93.2% are married couples living together, 1.6% have a female householder with no husband present, and 4.1% are non-families. 2.8% of all households are made up of individuals and 2.1% have someone living alone who is 65 years of age or older. The average household size is 5.74 and the average family size is 5.84.

Yup, that's right -- an entire town with over 93% of households being married couples.

Since they run the town, they also run the police. That doesn't mean they can pass unconstitutional laws. It does, however, mean two things:

1)Through constitutional means (i.e. zoning laws) they wield a tremendous amount of power.

2) Because of the total domination of the town by Hassidic Jews, no one wants to live there -- so they can be basically undisturbed and raise their children without any outside influence, for better or for worse.

187 posted on 05/25/2004 4:46:53 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew
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To: ChicagoHebrew
--- if a developer says "This town of 5,000 people is for God-fearing Christians. Our police will enforce strict blue laws, morality codes etc." I highly doubt non-Christians would choose to live in that town. Once secluded in such a town, would it really matter if the state the town was located in permitted abortion or pornography or homosexual marriage... 50 miles away?? I highly doubt it would impact residents of such a town, or their children, at all.

My point was that a town couldn't pass unconstitutional 'blue laws' or restrict abortion, etc, whereas a condo asso could have such 'rules'.

Since they run the town, they also run the police.
That doesn't mean they can pass unconstitutional laws.

Correct, -- but the Christians in the article ~demand~ that they can pass restrictive laws infringing on rights to life, liberty or property, and enforce them with the police power of a state, county or town.
-- No dice, under the US Constitution.

188 posted on 05/25/2004 5:15:34 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: tpaine

You'd be surprised how much you can do constitutionally with zoning and regulatory laws (btw, most blue laws ARE constitutional -- despite having their origin in religion).


189 posted on 05/25/2004 5:25:04 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew
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To: tpaine

Either way, one or the other, or both, it is moot. It will not happen and the idea is bogus.


190 posted on 05/25/2004 6:18:52 PM PDT by wingnuts'nbolts (Keep your eye on the donut not on the hole!!!)
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To: ChicagoHebrew; yall
You'd be surprised how much you can do constitutionally with zoning and regulatory laws

No, I wouldn't, seeing I wasted a lot of my life as a building contractor playing the game of getting around them. I was happy to retire and let someone else fight against the petty bureaucrats.

(btw, most blue laws ARE constitutional -- despite having their origin in religion).

Only those that regulate public displays of 'sin', imo.
Criminalizing what we do in private with other consenting adults is not a power granted to any level of government that I've ever seen. -- And prohibiting the possession of 'evil' objects is an even more insane bluenose activity.
Can you agree?

191 posted on 05/25/2004 6:30:53 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: wingnuts'nbolts

Why is the idea of restortion of a 'free state' ~bogus~?

Strange word to use. Do you consider a states powers under the 10th to be "bogus"? `


192 posted on 05/25/2004 6:36:07 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: tpaine

I agree that I hate the government meddling with the private market and people's private lives. I think most of that meddling is constitutional -- but not advisable. I, for one, would hate to live where the government regulates what I can and can't do.


193 posted on 05/25/2004 6:45:29 PM PDT by ChicagoHebrew
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To: ChicagoHebrew

ChicagoHebrew wrote:
I, for one, would hate to live where the government regulates what I can and can't do.

_____________________________________


You presently live in some utopia?

How do I get there?


194 posted on 05/25/2004 7:03:53 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: tpaine; ChicagoHebrew; yall
A "condo" city within the U.S. missis the whole point. I assume the citizens would still be taxed by the federal government and those tax dollars would be used to support anti-Christian beliefs. Also, it would be naive to think that some A.C.L.U. fans would not try to gain access, then sue when they are denied or "banished" in order to change the laws.

Sorry, the little "condo" community would still have to exist and operate aacording to the laws of the state and federal government.

195 posted on 05/25/2004 7:04:41 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: BSunday; Rytwyng
Nobody is forcing you to agree with anything. If you don't like what is being taught in schools, then either be more active, use the legislative process, or homeschool.

I assume you would give the same advice to the Jews in Nazi Germany.

That's a very naive statement you made, BSunday. Yes, the radical left are attempting to force us to agree with their positions. That's one of the problems with "hate crimes" legislation, "discrimination" laws pertaining to the gay agenda, etc.

Gee, I'll tell you what, why don't you come live here in California for a change. That might give you some perspective.

Not too long ago, if I remember correctly, our radical leftist legislators was working on legislation that would make it illegal for a church to refuse to hire practicing gays to certain positions (so much for religious liberty).

If I remember correctly, these leftist legislators also thought that transgender/transexuals/transvestites are a protected class, and that a Christian book store, therefore, should be required to hire them (I 'm sure you always expect you and your children to see a transexual at the cashier of your local Christian book store).

196 posted on 05/25/2004 7:24:01 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: Saundra Duffy
As soon as they all get there, they'll start fighting amongst themselves regarding who will be in charge. Ha! It'll never work.

That happens in every new form of Government, Saundra. But I think it would definitely work. Sure, there will be some battling going on over beliefs, power, etc., but at least the battle will be over differing conservative beliefs, for the most part.

197 posted on 05/25/2004 7:29:42 PM PDT by tame (Are you willing to do for the truth what leftists are willing to do for a lie?)
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To: tame
-- as long as all the rules were clearly disclosed, and everyone legally agreed to abide by them, such a totalitarian 'town' would be legal, imo.
{It could also be a hell on earth.}

A "condo" city within the U.S. missis the whole point.

Not at all. You want the power to banish your neighbor for 'sinning'? -- You got it in condo city.

I assume the citizens would still be taxed by the federal government and those tax dollars would be used to support anti-Christian beliefs.

Hey, if you want to be free of US taxes, you would ~have~ to leave. That will never change. - Trust me on this.

Also, it would be naive to think that some A.C.L.U. fans would not try to gain access, then sue when they are denied or "banished" in order to change the laws.

Condo 'law' is a pretty cut and dried form of business conract law. The 'aclu' type ploy hasn't won yet in this field.

Sorry, the little "condo" community would still have to exist and operate aacording to the laws of the state and federal government.

Of course it would.
As I said initially, the only power such an association has is eviction. -- And its enough.
Bannishment from the community has worked for thousands of years to establish/keep control over cult & sect members.

198 posted on 05/25/2004 7:34:22 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: BraveMan

I have actually thought of that. I forget why. But I don't know a great deal about it so it often escapes my review/survey of such options!


199 posted on 05/25/2004 7:45:07 PM PDT by Quix (Choose this day whom U will serve: Shrillery & demonic goons or The King of Kings and Lord of Lords)
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To: KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle; 2A Patriot; 2nd amendment mama; 4everontheRight; 77Jimmy; ...

SC Ping

FReepmail me if you want on or off this list.

200 posted on 05/25/2004 7:47:17 PM PDT by SC Swamp Fox (Aim small, miss small.)
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