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The Neoconservative Persuasion
Weekly Standard ^ | 2003 | Irving Kristol

Posted on 05/24/2004 4:42:38 PM PDT by churchillbuff

WHAT EXACTLY IS NEOCONSERVATISM? Journalists, and now even presidential candidates, speak with an enviable confidence on who or what is "neoconservative," and seem to assume the meaning is fully revealed in the name. Those of us who are designated as "neocons" are amused, flattered, or dismissive, depending on the context. It is reasonable to wonder: Is there any "there" there?

Even I, frequently referred to as the "godfather" of all those neocons, have had my moments of wonderment. A few years ago I said (and, alas, wrote) that neoconservatism had had its own distinctive qualities in its early years, but by now had been absorbed into the mainstream of American conservatism. I was wrong, and the reason I was wrong is that, ever since its origin among disillusioned liberal intellectuals in the 1970s, what we call neoconservatism has been one of those intellectual undercurrents that surface only intermittently. It is not a "movement," as the conspiratorial critics would have it. Neoconservatism is what the late historian of Jacksonian America, Marvin Meyers, called a "persuasion," one that manifests itself over time, but erratically, and one whose meaning we clearly glimpse only in retrospect.

Viewed in this way, one can say that the historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be this: to convert the Republican party, and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy. That this new conservative politics is distinctly American is beyond doubt. There is nothing like neoconservatism in Europe, and most European conservatives are highly skeptical of its legitimacy. The fact that conservatism in the United States is so much healthier than in Europe, so much more politically effective, surely has something to do with the existence of neoconservatism. But Europeans, who think it absurd to look to the United States for lessons in political innovation, resolutely refuse to consider this possibility.

Neoconservatism is the first variant of American conservatism in the past century that is in the "American grain." It is hopeful, not lugubrious; forward-looking, not nostalgic; and its general tone is cheerful, not grim or dyspeptic. Its 20th-century heroes tend to be TR, FDR, and Ronald Reagan. Such Republican and conservative worthies as Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Dwight Eisenhower, and Barry Goldwater are politely overlooked. Of course, those worthies are in no way overlooked by a large, probably the largest, segment of the Republican party, with the result that most Republican politicians know nothing and could not care less about neoconservatism. Nevertheless, they cannot be blind to the fact that neoconservative policies, reaching out beyond the traditional political and financial base, have helped make the very idea of political conservatism more acceptable to a majority of American voters. Nor has it passed official notice that it is the neoconservative public policies, not the traditional Republican ones, that result in popular Republican presidencies One of these policies, most visible and controversial, is cutting tax rates in order to stimulate steady economic growth. This policy was not invented by neocons, and it was not the particularities of tax cuts that interested them, but rather the steady focus on economic growth. Neocons are familiar with intellectual history and aware that it is only in the last two centuries that democracy has become a respectable option among political thinkers. In earlier times, democracy meant an inherently turbulent political regime, with the "have-nots" and the "haves" engaged in a perpetual and utterly destructive class struggle. It was only the prospect of economic growth in which everyone prospered, if not equally or simultaneously, that gave modern democracies their legitimacy and durability. The cost of this emphasis on economic growth has been an attitude toward public finance that is far less risk averse than is the case among more traditional conservatives. Neocons would prefer not to have large budget deficits, but it is in the nature of democracy--because it seems to be in the nature of human nature--that political demagogy will frequently result in economic recklessness, so that one sometimes must shoulder budgetary deficits as the cost (temporary, one hopes) of pursuing economic growth. It is a basic assumption of neoconservatism that, as a consequence of the spread of affluence among all classes, a property-owning and tax-paying population will, in time, become less vulnerable to egalitarian illusions and demagogic appeals and more sensible about the fundamentals of economic reckoning.

This leads to the issue of the role of the state. Neocons do not like the concentration of services in the welfare state and are happy to study alternative ways of delivering these services. But they are impatient with the Hayekian notion that we are on "the road to serfdom." Neocons do not feel that kind of alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural, indeed inevitable. Because they tend to be more interested in history than economics or sociology, they know that the 19th-century idea, so neatly propounded by Herbert Spencer in his "The Man Versus the State," was a historical eccentricity. People have always preferred strong government to weak government, although they certainly have no liking for anything that smacks of overly intrusive government. Neocons feel at home in today's America to a degree that more traditional conservatives do not. Though they find much to be critical about, they tend to seek intellectual guidance in the democratic wisdom of Tocqueville, rather than in the Tory nostalgia of, say, Russell Kirk.

But it is only to a degree that neocons are comfortable in modern America. The steady decline in our democratic culture, sinking to new levels of vulgarity, does unite neocons with traditional conservatives--though not with those libertarian conservatives who are conservative in economics but unmindful of the culture. The upshot is a quite unexpected alliance between neocons, who include a fair proportion of secular intellectuals, and religious traditionalists. They are united on issues concerning the quality of education, the relations of church and state, the regulation of pornography, and the like, all of which they regard as proper candidates for the government's attention. And since the Republican party now has a substantial base among the religious, this gives neocons a certain influence and even power. Because religious conservatism is so feeble in Europe, the neoconservative potential there is correspondingly weak.

AND THEN, of course, there is foreign policy, the area of American politics where neoconservatism has recently been the focus of media attention. This is surprising since there is no set of neoconservative beliefs concerning foreign policy, only a set of attitudes derived from historical experience. (The favorite neoconservative text on foreign affairs, thanks to professors Leo Strauss of Chicago and Donald Kagan of Yale, is Thucydides on the Peloponnesian War.) These attitudes can be summarized in the following "theses" (as a Marxist would say): First, patriotism is a natural and healthy sentiment and should be encouraged by both private and public institutions. Precisely because we are a nation of immigrants, this is a powerful American sentiment. Second, world government is a terrible idea since it can lead to world tyranny. International institutions that point to an ultimate world government should be regarded with the deepest suspicion. Third, statesmen should, above all, have the ability to distinguish friends from enemies. This is not as easy as it sounds, as the history of the Cold War revealed. The number of intelligent men who could not count the Soviet Union as an enemy, even though this was its own self-definition, was absolutely astonishing.

Finally, for a great power, the "national interest" is not a geographical term, except for fairly prosaic matters like trade and environmental regulation. A smaller nation might appropriately feel that its national interest begins and ends at its borders, so that its foreign policy is almost always in a defensive mode. A larger nation has more extensive interests. And large nations, whose identity is ideological, like the Soviet Union of yesteryear and the United States of today, inevitably have ideological interests in addition to more material concerns. Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened. No complicated geopolitical calculations of national interest are necessary.

Behind all this is a fact: the incredible military superiority of the United States vis-à-vis the nations of the rest of the world, in any imaginable combination. This superiority was planned by no one, and even today there are many Americans who are in denial. To a large extent, it all happened as a result of our bad luck. During the 50 years after World War II, while Europe was at peace and the Soviet Union largely relied on surrogates to do its fighting, the United States was involved in a whole series of wars: the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Kosovo conflict, the Afghan War, and the Iraq War. The result was that our military spending expanded more or less in line with our economic growth, while Europe's democracies cut back their military spending in favor of social welfare programs. The Soviet Union spent profusely but wastefully, so that its military collapsed along with its economy.

Suddenly, after two decades during which "imperial decline" and "imperial overstretch" were the academic and journalistic watchwords, the United States emerged as uniquely powerful. The "magic" of compound interest over half a century had its effect on our military budget, as did the cumulative scientific and technological research of our armed forces. With power come responsibilities, whether sought or not, whether welcome or not. And it is a fact that if you have the kind of power we now have, either you will find opportunities to use it, or the world will discover them for you.

The older, traditional elements in the Republican party have difficulty coming to terms with this new reality in foreign affairs, just as they cannot reconcile economic conservatism with social and cultural conservatism. But by one of those accidents historians ponder, our current president and his administration turn out to be quite at home in this new political environment, although it is clear they did not anticipate this role any more than their party as a whole did. As a result, neoconservatism began enjoying a second life, at a time when its obituaries were still being published.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: antiwarsquawking; generalmcclellanbuff; irvingkristol; joooooooos; kristol; neocatfighting; neocons; neoconservatism; neonamecalling
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To: Dane
Come to think of it, I'd love to bring as many of them along as possible.

"Hey folks, I brought the entertainment."

301 posted on 05/25/2004 3:01:55 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: inflation
That's the refutation?

Is property taxation illegal now? If defaulting on one's owed takes,and penalties laid on,when one does,is "theft",to you,then therein lies your problem.

Does your friend have a mortgage?If so,then he doesn't OWN the property to begin with!

Is he getting unemployment checks?

Has he looked for work,ANY work?

Since YOU care so much about him,why aren't you helping him monetarily?

During the Great Depression,people used to throw parties,to raise rent money/property tax money.Why not DO something like that for him?

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh...Conservatives aren't supposed to be a bunch of bleeding hearts,but nobody would know that,by reading some posts here.

302 posted on 05/25/2004 3:03:14 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: CWOJackson; churchillbuff; 21st Century Man
Our troops can't be defeated in battle, only at home

Yep and Zinni, Kerry, 60 minutes, the rest of the fifth column media, chamberlainbuff, and 21st century the space oddity, are leading that parade.

303 posted on 05/25/2004 3:04:03 PM PDT by Dane
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To: CWOJackson

If I spit on my father or my brothers, the last time I would have to worry about is some keyboard pansy like you.

BTW, my whole family has been Republican since the Civil War and not one of them thought the War in Iraq would be a good thing for US.

There are tons of military and political options available in the WOT that wouldn't have become the quagmire that Iraq has become.

Do you know the history of Iraq and it's occupiers?

"THOSE THAT IGNORE HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT"


304 posted on 05/25/2004 3:04:47 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
You are spitting on them and their service...and you're too shallow to even understand that.

Yes, comparing you to Michael Moore is wrong...he simply a gross pig.

305 posted on 05/25/2004 3:06:00 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man
We SHOULD And COULD have won the Nam War,if the anti-war nutters and the damned Dems and the blasted media hadn't undercut our efforst there!

This has less than NOTHING at all to do with " blood lust"!

306 posted on 05/25/2004 3:06:04 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: CWOJackson

CWOJackson wrote:
Naw, if it were up to my ilk, you're ilk wouldn't have been spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam.

_____________________________________


Keep up the good work jackson, -- that is real close to uncalled for personal abuse, imo.


307 posted on 05/25/2004 3:06:31 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: CWOJackson
RIGHT!
308 posted on 05/25/2004 3:06:53 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: 21st Century Man

"If I spit on my father or my brothers, the last time..."

Should have read:

"If I spit on my father or my brothers, the last thing..."


309 posted on 05/25/2004 3:06:57 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: Dane
Did you see where Zinni worked a $150 million deal with Pakistan after he retired?

No wonder he was opposed to taking out the USS Cole attackers.

310 posted on 05/25/2004 3:06:59 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Dane
RIGHT!
311 posted on 05/25/2004 3:07:25 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: tpaine

tpaine wrote: kmnd cdki cdkdm cddug wiya 38js


312 posted on 05/25/2004 3:08:12 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: nopardons

You asked if he had lost his propery, I answered when that would happen.

This just happened, but the job market in this area isn't the best.

I have donated a large amount of food to them, I do not have the money to help them or I would and out church has raised some money, but it's a small church.

Conservatives ARE supposed to care for their fellow citizens, I guess you forgot that.


313 posted on 05/25/2004 3:08:12 PM PDT by inflation (Cuba = BAD, China = Good? Why, should not both be treated the way Cuba is?)
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To: 21st Century Man
There are tons of military and political options available in the WOT that wouldn't have become the quagmire that Iraq has become.

It's always easy for one to say that from the comfort behind a beer stained keyboard and sitting in an EZ Chair.

314 posted on 05/25/2004 3:08:55 PM PDT by Dane
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To: cyborg

I've never seen THE SWAN;just heard about it. LOL


315 posted on 05/25/2004 3:09:00 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: churchillbuff
Shallow puffery, to be sure. The man takes his pseudo-intellectual "persuasion" rather more seriously as a factor in political philosophy than anything in his article would suggest it capable of measuring up to. Let us take this profoundly arrogant, yet profoundly revealing statement of purpose, as an example:

Viewed in this way, one can say that the historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be this: to convert the Republican party, and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy. That this new conservative politics is distinctly American is beyond doubt.

Note the predisposition towards "Democracy," the system Madison and the other Founding Fathers sought to guard against. And yet even in that predisposition, note the absurd contradiction. This poseur seeks to convert those of us who believe in traditional Americanism, as well as the Republican party, against our wills. That sure is Democratic! And the genius who can write such revealing commentary, just assumes of course that he is both doing us and America a favor.

The final sentence quoted further demonstrates the shallowness of Mr. Kristol as a political thinker. First of all, there is nothing Conservative about this "new conservative politics." It is duplicitous to call it that. And duplicity has been the hallmark of various forms of European politics--in each case also pretending to be much further to the right than it actually is--for over a hundred years.

First of all, consider the British Fabian Socialist movement, now running the British Government via the Labour Party under Tony Blair. Blair as his predecessors has always pretended to be far more moderate than he actually is. He like some of Mr. Kristol's admirers in America, also, refuses to protect the basic British stock--the British Nation descended from those who are responsible for English civilization, literature, science and influence--from hordes of uncongenial immigrants, still pouring into an already, long over-crowded island.

Second, consider the Nazi movement under Adolph Hitler. While he called his party "Socialist," as well as "Labour," he pretended to be of the Right. While he called for a "Classless, Casteless Society"--just as the Communists--he was basically engaged in converting the German Center and even some of the actual Right, "against their respective wills." And, he as brother Kristol, acted as though he was doing them a favor. He was saving Germany by revolutionizing its several cultures. We have all seen pictures of that benefit in the bombed out ruins. Herr Hitler was no more of the real Right than is Herr Kristol.

Europe in the days of the EU is full of phony Conservatives who do not seek to preserve, but like Mr. Kristol, seek to foist an ideology on people "against their respective wills," with varying degrees of success. Such forces of "Democracy," have all but destroyed the continuity of European culture and family values. Massachusetts, today, but apes Europe.

Anyone who has ever attended an Academy with serious intellectual pretensions, will have encountered in addition to the serious intellects that may actually be on campus, the numerous poseurs who seek to convince others of their profundity. We know the breed, Mr. Kristol represents, though not all of them are so pathetic as Mr. Kristol.

Sham Conservatism from a sham intellect!

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

316 posted on 05/25/2004 3:09:04 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: CWOJackson; tpaine
tpaine wrote: kmnd cdki cdkdm cddug wiya 38js

tpaine writes in a language called gibberish.

317 posted on 05/25/2004 3:10:49 PM PDT by Dane
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To: nopardons

It's an atrocious show where "ugly" women are secluded and not allowed to see their own reflection for months while undergoing plastic surgery,etc. When they are finally allowed to see themselves, they don't recognize themselves and from what I read so far not many are pleased. The one episode I saw, I was disgusted and turned it. Not like last night watching Colonial House and wanting to kill the atheist woman for all that whining.


318 posted on 05/25/2004 3:10:52 PM PDT by cyborg (tit for tat butter for fat hillary is ugly that's a fact)
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To: Dane

He's still trying to figure out his own last post.


319 posted on 05/25/2004 3:10:56 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man
"QUAGMIRE"...and YOU have the temerity to talk about those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it and all you do is spout NAM WAR propaganda,which LOST that war for us?
320 posted on 05/25/2004 3:11:36 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

I'm sorry, I thought the DemoRATS got us into Vietnam (along with the Great Society) and they were the ones that held back the troops?

By the time the Vietnam anti-war protestors showed up, the war had been already lost.


321 posted on 05/25/2004 3:14:28 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man

Your "ilk" are the ones responsible for the reception "our" troops got when they returned.


322 posted on 05/25/2004 3:16:04 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: inflation
Conservatives are NOT supposed to be a bunch of whiney,bleeding hearts.

If he can't get a job,in construction,he should get a job doing something else;ANYTHING! And what about his unemployment benefits?

This just happened? "JUST HAPPENED"? Where are his savings? What about his wife working?

Good grief...if thed job market stinks where you/he live,then he needs to go where the job market is good!

What ever happened to common sense?

323 posted on 05/25/2004 3:16:13 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: CWOJackson; churchillbuff
Okay, guys, far be it from me to break up a good flamewar, but as much as I myself suppor the war in Iraq, your little back-and-forth has been going on for over 100 posts on about five different threads now, and it's got to be the most useless waste of bandwidth I've ever seen on FR.

It's getting like a schoolyard screaming match.

Buff, I disagree with you, but i'd be mad too if I was in your shoes after this.

CWO, we've been friends for years it seems. We ALL need to act more like adults if we want to persuade people.

Like I said in #18, we pon the Right are going to lose the war AND the election if we keep at each other like jackals.

THINK PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buff, you've made your point...you oppose the war. Fine. That DOESN'T mean you have to post article after article, day after day slamming our efforts there. As a serviceman myself, I can tell you it gets discouraging. We're there now, in Iraq, and we're not going to be pulled out. So we have to win, so the troops can survive and come home. If a Democrat gets elected, and pulls us out, then no American will ever be safe at home or abroad again.

CWO, There's better ways to debate than you are here. Read your posts in sequence and I'm sure you'll see. We need to be a team now, against Kerry anyway. These battles and feuds amongst ourselves do NOTHING but make us all look ridiculous.

324 posted on 05/25/2004 3:17:44 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: CWOJackson

When my family came home from Nam, I was there at the to support them.

I never did see any protestors, only on TV.


325 posted on 05/25/2004 3:17:56 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: cyborg
LOL...welcome to the club,re wringing the atheist woman's neck.

You going to watch CH tonight?

326 posted on 05/25/2004 3:19:11 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
The interstate overpass, at the Madigan Army Hospital exit, I-5, is choked with yellow ribbons put there by people who support our troops.

At the main entrance to Ft. Lewis the fences are covered in banners wishing our troops well and praying for their safe return...put there by private citizens.

Periodically, the anti-war crowd arrives to demonstrate on the over-pass, to let the troops know how their "ilk" feels about them.

The troops and their families know that the majority of us, sorry Kerry Poet but you and Michael Moore aren't the majority, support them. Still, I can't help but think it would raise their spirits even higher if we could tie some of these anti-war defeatiest scum to the overpass as a show of support.

327 posted on 05/25/2004 3:20:16 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Long Cut

Sorry LC...this team doesn't include those who undermine the morale and resolve of our troops.


328 posted on 05/25/2004 3:21:40 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Dane; Bozo

You and bozo can't read standard english?

Blame society.


329 posted on 05/25/2004 3:27:53 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: MrShoop
I find that description of neo-conservatism particularly uncompelling.

Of course, it's repugnant! It's by the Father of Neo-conservatism (and also the father of the neo with the biggest mouth .... now do you wonder how Bill came by his pomposity?).

There's nothing much conservative about it, neo-liberalism would be a more apt title! FDR and TR, indeed!

330 posted on 05/25/2004 3:27:58 PM PDT by iconoclast
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To: CWOJackson; churchillbuff
I'm sorry, CWO, but for some reason, during wartime, the sight of Americans vs. Americans doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm. ESPECIALLY if it's conservative vs. conservative.

You support the troops like few I've ever seen. You do a great job of it, and supporting us here. You and I have engaged more trolls, pitchforkers, and other jerks here than I can count. Let's not degenerate to the level of the Moores and Streisands, huh?

Look, there's two possibilities regarding CB...

1. He's a troll;
2. He's really a conservative with serious questions about the war, which he sincerely wants to discuss.

If the answer is 1, just ignoring his posts will do the trick. If he gets ZERO responses, and is a troll, he'll leave. Responding only keeps the thread bumped.

If he's legit, he'll simply get the message that the others have had enough and quit posting the negative crap.

331 posted on 05/25/2004 3:29:46 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: nopardons
I know this is off topic, but as an aside, Mark Levin is having Tim Wood on for the whole second hour. He has the inside info on the oil for food scandal.

After watching Monica Crowley last night, I am really glad Levin took her second hour.!

332 posted on 05/25/2004 3:31:11 PM PDT by woodyinscc
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To: nutmeg

read later bump


333 posted on 05/25/2004 3:31:38 PM PDT by nutmeg (Why vote for Bush? Imagine Commander in Chief John Fin al-Qerry)
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To: Long Cut
I see nothing "conservative" in a constant anti-war stance, or repetitive posting of anti-war thread, such as he does.

I see nothing conservative at all in those who wrap themselves in the "true conservative" label yet actively work to undermine the war effort.

But feel free to harmonize with them.

334 posted on 05/25/2004 3:36:39 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: iconoclast

Pretty amazing how Neo-Cons can't deal with the absolute truth of the Neo-Conservatives agenda.

What's even more surprising is how they cling to this insanity even after presumably ingesting the facts.

I'd say they have a major problem with reality, just like their Neo-Con demigods.


335 posted on 05/25/2004 3:46:59 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: CWOJackson
"But feel free to harmonize with them."

That's the last thing i'd do and you know it.

All I'm saying is, don't encourage them by engaging in pointless squabbles.

We have a President to re-elect, in the middle of a World War. His removal will herald a retreat, followed by our loss of it.

We're not helping ourselves by attacking and sniping at each other, or by using these stupid labels like "Neo-Con, or "Paleo-Con".

336 posted on 05/25/2004 3:53:35 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: churchillbuff

You're right, he's positively obsessed, and it's pushed him over the edge of reason and sanity.


337 posted on 05/25/2004 3:57:01 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: Long Cut
Unfortunately, if you look at some of these anti-war threads, some folks, mostly newer members, actually start falling for the anti-war line. Not only that, but too often these threads are full of lies to boot. For instance, the Zinni worship threads...where they are using Zinni as a legitimate military authority to support their arguments.

Are you aware of Zinni's opposition to attack the people responsible for the USS Cole? Are you aware of the commercial deal he later brokered as a civilian with the government he had protected following the USS Cole attack?

If not I can provide you with the data.

It outrages me that these people, despite having been informed of the truth involving Zinni, even today have posted threads using him as an argument.

As for sniping and attacking "each other", most of the self proclaimed "true conservatives" are already avowed third party voters...but the lurkers may not be.

338 posted on 05/25/2004 4:01:10 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man

Reason and sanity...concepts you will never understand...do yourself a favor and keep your head in the third party sand box.


339 posted on 05/25/2004 4:02:05 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man
What's even more surprising is how they cling to this insanity even after presumably ingesting the facts.

DENIAL is a terrible trap. We need to come up with a twelve-step program for these poor souls. ;o)

340 posted on 05/25/2004 4:15:09 PM PDT by iconoclast
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To: 21st Century Man
JFK got us into the Nam War.The war protesters never stopped protesting from the beginnings of the rabid,Communist paid for/run ban-the-bomb movement;which began in earnest just after WW II.

The anti-war protesters didn't just "show up",at the end/when Nixon was president.

An accurate knowledge of history helps.:-)

341 posted on 05/25/2004 4:17:00 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
First of all, Soviet citizens had to show identification papers. The fact that Nazi citizens faced the same situation does not mean the Soviets did not. Soviet communism and National Socialism shared the same ideological basis, so it is not shocking that the systems shared similar features. By thew way, where does one find "the Internet rules?" Are they published by Hoyle? Adapted from Roberts Rules of Order?

Secondly, I never said Hamilton was President. He was, however, the first Secretary of the Treasury and is acknowledged as having been the architect of America's early economic development. I didn't even mention Jefferson, though I agree with you about the fact that he was far too enamored with the French revolutionaries and the nation is far better off for his having been overruled (in no short measure thanks to Hamilton, who accomplished much even without being President!). Yet I'm still scratching my head as to the relevance of the Jefferson discussion or the Monroe "DOCTORINE." And how Hearst and TR have anything to do with this, I'm at a loss.

Thirdly, at the time of the Revolution, America was an agrarian nation with little industry. It was only after Hamilton developed his report on manufacturing and worked hard to plunder European industrial secrets that we started to become an economic power. Now maybe its just me, but a nation that was mostly farming in nature and teetered on defaulting its debts for several years sounds suspicviously Third World to me. Of course, that could be an idiosyncratic definition and far be it from me to get into yet another semantic (and pedantic) debate with you.

As to whether America was considered a "force," there is the small matter of the fact that we put down the Barbary pirates when the Europeans were still paying them blackmail. Though we were not the power that we are today, or after World war I, we were certainly not pussycats.
342 posted on 05/25/2004 4:18:16 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: iconoclast
Tell us how yours is doing. Perhaps we can get the rest of the anti-war "majority kamp" on a similar program.
343 posted on 05/25/2004 4:18:18 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

That's good to hear. :-)


344 posted on 05/25/2004 4:19:02 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: woodyinscc
Thanks for the heads up...I listen to Mark everyday and have him on now.:-)

I could NEVER listen to Crowley and I'm delighted that ABC gave Mark a second hour.

345 posted on 05/25/2004 4:21:46 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: CWOJackson
all in perspective.

If you think gun-grabbing and high taxes aren't priority-one issues, I wonder what freedoms you think our military exists to defend. anyway, you won't issue a single sentence to say you agree with the Republican Platform, when it comes to life, family, tax and regulatory issues. the fact you say these aren't "priorities" makes it clear that you're a liberal, and that (although you won't admit it to your fellow freepers) you take Kerry's side on most issues. you see, only liberals don't think these issues are important.

Liberals see no priority in saving babies from abortionists, or in saving taxpayers from ruinous taxation, or in saving the family structure from homosexual militants, or in saving equal rights from racial quotas. You and Michael Moore agree that these aren't top priority issues.

Thanks for revealing yourself as an undercover liberal !

346 posted on 05/25/2004 4:32:36 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: nopardons

The anti-Vietnam War movement didn't get a head of steam until 68' for all intensive purposes and by then the VietCong had plans in place that made it impossible for us to defeat them without invading North Vietnam in force.

The DemoRATs balked and the rest was history.

Iraq may suffer a similar fate unless we have the wherewithal to invade Syria and Iran.

That is if we don't run out of money first.


347 posted on 05/25/2004 4:34:06 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: churchillbuff
Nothing undercover about you at all there Chamberlainbuff...you're working your anti-war BS out in the open.

But nice try at trying to change the subject and run away from your agenda. It isn't working of course, but neither is your agenda.

348 posted on 05/25/2004 4:34:34 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: asmith92008
It is always,in movies about the Nazis,that the "papers please" line appears.

The "NAZI RULE" on the net,is well know,was posted,for at least the 1,000th time,just last week,on FR.I didn't make it up.

I know all about Hamilton;no need to attempt to "fill me in" about him.LOL

My other references,were to show that our leaders have NOT really been isolationists.

Most nations were mostly agrarian based,at the time America became America.We were also looked down upon,by the "first world powers",until after WW II,due to their perceptions of our lack of sophistication,intellectual lack,and no,even our "goods" were seen as inferior,for the most part.

Ummmmmmmmm...after Jefferson sent what was to become our Marines,after the Barbary Pirates and claiming that we wouldn't pay "bribes"...guess what? WE DID PAY BRIBES! That's a fact.

Would you care for a wee book list?

349 posted on 05/25/2004 4:37:18 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Long Cut
You're talking to CWOJackson as one of "us," as if you assume he's a conservative. All he's revealed is that he's for the war in Iraq. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a conservative, because Dick Gephart and, indeed, John Kerry also supported the invasion, and neither favor withdrawal. So Iraq is not a liberal/conservative litmus test; there are supporters of the invasion from both camps.

So how can we assume Jackson's conservative? He refuses to say where he stands on any domestic issue - taxes, abortion, "gay marriage," quotas, environmental regulation. Just because he's pro-Iraq-war is no reason to assume he's not a moderate Democrat or an unaffiliated voter who leans to the left on most issues.

350 posted on 05/25/2004 4:38:38 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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