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The Neoconservative Persuasion
Weekly Standard ^ | 2003 | Irving Kristol

Posted on 05/24/2004 4:42:38 PM PDT by churchillbuff

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To: Long Cut

IOW, a setup where most people are serfs and a few (including you, I assume) have almost all the money and power is what you want.

As for you not supporting the concept of a min wage, well that doesn't matter. It's against the law to do what is being done and you are defending those breaking the law.


151 posted on 05/25/2004 9:09:55 AM PDT by inflation (Cuba = BAD, China = Good? Why, should not both be treated the way Cuba is?)
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To: Torie

Then why point out my spelling mistakes, knowing that I was having trouble with FR as I said in my other posts. I use spellcheck when it doesn't take 20-35 seconds per POST for it to work. ;->


152 posted on 05/25/2004 9:13:02 AM PDT by inflation (Cuba = BAD, China = Good? Why, should not both be treated the way Cuba is?)
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To: inflation
LOL! How much money do you think a Navy E-6 makes, with baby and a stay-at-home wife (who, by the way, was downsized) makes?

If someone is breaking the law, they should be arrested and prosecuted. You'll get no dispute from me on that one. I do not and never have defended the breaking of the law. Where I disagree with it, I try to work to get it changed. I was discussing the basic economics of it.

Oh, and BTW, you were absolutely RIGHT over on that "Church vs. Porn" thread. See? Common ground.

153 posted on 05/25/2004 9:23:12 AM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: Long Cut

Reasonable people can disagree. (hope my husband doesn't read this, for some strange reason he thinks I'am hard headed!)


154 posted on 05/25/2004 9:31:13 AM PDT by inflation (Cuba = BAD, China = Good? Why, should not both be treated the way Cuba is?)
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To: inflation
You and my wife would get along great.

Look, economic realities have a way of changing. People who made buggy-whips had to get jobs in the S&M field after the car was invented (JOKE! It's just a joke...). Just because someone realizes this doesn't mean that they're Robber Barons or want to enslave the working class. It DOES mean that from time to time, people have no choice but to adapt to changing circumstances.

Back when my dad and me were putting in hardwood floors in New York, we were constantly being undersold by crews composed of illegals. We managed to get along, and even make a few bucks, by simply doing MUCH better work. They wound up with the cheap, low-dollar work, and we got all the high-end, custom work. They manufacture to low standards; we made our work an art.

In 1991, I got my Commercial pilot's license, with images in my head of working for an airline for big bucks. Guess what? That same year, the airline industry cratered, and never really recovered. Next.

There are people who, expecting to work at the same factory their grandaddy did, for the same high wages, neglected to make alternate plans. They must shoulder that burden now.

I do think we can do better on illegal immigration, and I do think the law should be enforced. But there's far more to it than just that.

We need to shut down the social giveaways that attract illegals;
We need to enact reforms that stop penalizing employers for just doing business;
We might try some means to get the states and local governments to stop inhibiting the INS, and refusing to cooperate with them.

Those are just SOME of the things we can do. Tort reform is another good one. If the climate for business is good, they'll stay in America and employ Americans.

As for the social programs, back to my original point...vote the Dims out. That'll go a long way towards fixing things. Note also, the only party containing people like Tom Tancredo who are actually pushing the issues you are concerned with is NOT the Dims.

155 posted on 05/25/2004 9:50:14 AM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: Long Cut

Great post, it should rally the troops, if they cared about winning!


156 posted on 05/25/2004 9:54:24 AM PDT by Sybeck1 (Kerry: how can we trust him with our money, if Teresa won't trust him with hers!)
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To: CWOJackson

Never heard of "neo-cons" until Matthews started talking "cabal", and the conspirazoids started their mouth-watering.

But I think I like "neo-cons"!

Seems to me they are the only ones willing to stand up to the Islamic Cults that have roamed the globe for decades, murdering innocents with impunity.

Seems to me that all other political ideologies have had their chance over the last 25 years, in the US and Israel, to deal with, put down, or destroy the power of these cults.

To no avail, as was obvious 9/11.

Seems to me, it's time to give the "neo-cons" the next 5 years, at least, without the constant undermining their goals.

My god, lets remember who is the enemy here.


157 posted on 05/25/2004 10:03:18 AM PDT by roses of sharon
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To: Sybeck1

Let's hope so. We've allowed ourselves to get dangerously sidetracked in these worthless feuds lately, and at the worst possible time.


158 posted on 05/25/2004 10:06:21 AM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: churchillbuff

A neocon is an ex-democrat. If a democrat had any sense they would'nt even be a democrat, and sadly mostly they don't have any sense even they are not democrats either.


159 posted on 05/25/2004 10:14:37 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: roses of sharon
"My god, lets remember who is the enemy here."

I thought the "enemy" of conservatives was BIG government.

BIG government is the handmaiden of the NeoCons, that is my problem with them and their ilk.

If the NeoCons lose power, guess who is going to inherit the monster they created? That's right, the original tax & spend dolts, the Liberals.

160 posted on 05/25/2004 10:30:37 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: hosepipe

BIG government statist often think they're patriotically conservative, but in reality they're destroying the country with their progressive nanny-state politics just as fast as the liberal democrats.

161 posted on 05/25/2004 10:36:29 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: churchillbuff
"I'm not at all persuaded that you're a conservative."

Good. I wouldn't want to be associated with anything "you" would consider conservative...Chamberlain. However, I can assure you, I am fully persuaded as to what you are...nothing more then a defeatist troll.

Sorry I couldn't wait around for you to respond...I know you don't like to do that until you know your betters have retired for the night.

162 posted on 05/25/2004 10:46:42 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Veracious Poet
So poet, you said that Conservatives who support the war are in the minority, and that the "kamp" you're in opposes it. Care to finally share with use which "kamp" you're in that is the majority over us?

Would that be the same "kamp" as your hero Michael Moore?

163 posted on 05/25/2004 10:49:18 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: jmc813

Me? Just a American Conservative. I save all that neo/paleo BS for those who need labels to try and justify either their existance or their prejudices.


164 posted on 05/25/2004 10:58:58 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

I never said I was in a "kamp".

I said you were...lol!

Try working on your reading comprehension, it'll do wonders for your ability to formulate a logical argument.


165 posted on 05/25/2004 11:02:50 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: CWOJackson
I must admit, I'm very "prejudice" against BIG government and statist that claim they're part of the conservative movement.
166 posted on 05/25/2004 11:05:58 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: nopardons
Actually, a reference to Stalinist Russia. Do I still lose or can I keep playing?
167 posted on 05/25/2004 11:06:47 AM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: roses of sharon

I never much paid any attention to the folks using all the labels...considering most of them that seem fond of doing that are opposed to the War on Terror, it looks like impotent strutting to me.


168 posted on 05/25/2004 11:12:24 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Veracious Poet
My reading skills are fine. You said that we Conservative Americans who support the war on terror are in the minority. Since you're one of those opposed to the war, and claim to be in the majority, it would be nice to know just which "kamp" you're in.

Of course if you are too embarrassed to identify your majority group who are opposed to the war, I can understand.

169 posted on 05/25/2004 11:14:20 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Veracious Poet
I never said I was in a "kamp". I said you were...lol!

LOL! He does not state you claimed you were in a kamp. LOL!

170 posted on 05/25/2004 11:19:10 AM PDT by Petronski (They could choose between shame and war: Some chose shame, but got war anyway.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Read Chernow's book on Alexander Hamilton. Protectionism is part and parcel of how America changed from a Third World nation to a world player. Do you truly argue that Hamilton was a leftist?
171 posted on 05/25/2004 11:20:07 AM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: Veracious Poet
So what group is it you're speaking for?

The one that out numbers Conservative American's who support the War on Terror?

Would that be the Michael Moore, Jim McDermott crowd?

172 posted on 05/25/2004 11:20:39 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: asmith92008

Ah, Alexander Hamilton...the father of American taxation.


173 posted on 05/25/2004 11:21:42 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson
Again, your reading comprehension has failed you... I said:

Hey Mr. Troll-hood, in case you haven't checked lately your kamp is in the minority and will quickly become known within conservative circles as the political mistake that cost the GOP the Whitehouse. Neo-conned again...

I never said I was in a kamp, I said you were (kamp = Neo-Cons).

Being influenced by Trotsyites Neo-Cons view borders as an evil - they want global one world govt just like the neo-liberals.

174 posted on 05/25/2004 11:24:10 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: Veracious Poet
Trying to Kerry around your own words still?

You said that we Conservative Americans who support the War on Terror are in the majority. Now everyone knows that doesn't include you and your defeatist view point. So what majority "kamp" are you in?

The Michael Moore and Jim McDermott "kamp"?

175 posted on 05/25/2004 11:27:39 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Veracious Poet
Just where does he state that you claimed you were in a kamp? I'm just trying to understand why you keep laughing at the man's reading comprehension.
176 posted on 05/25/2004 11:28:07 AM PDT by Petronski (They could choose between shame and war: Some chose shame, but got war anyway.)
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To: Veracious Poet
Did you send your majority buddy Michael Moore and congratulatory e-mail? "Keep up the good work Michael, America needs you."

Will you get a courtesy copy of his movie for all your good anti-war work?

177 posted on 05/25/2004 11:29:27 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

"So what group is it you're speaking for?"

I speak for myself, but IMHO most anti-BIG government conservatives feel that War in Iraq may have been a mistake.

I don't care what liberal idiots think of the war, I'm sure they have entirely different reasons for opposing it (they love BIG government just like the Neo-Cons).


178 posted on 05/25/2004 11:30:12 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: Petronski

He's just trying to Kerry his way out of what he said.


179 posted on 05/25/2004 11:30:19 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

Also father of American system of banking and private investment.


180 posted on 05/25/2004 11:30:50 AM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: Veracious Poet
"I speak for myself..."

How can you be speaking for yourself? You claim we Conservatives who support the War on Terror are in the minority.

If you're speaking for yourself then you are the minority...but you claim we are. So what majority group are you speaking for Kerry Poet?

181 posted on 05/25/2004 11:32:36 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: asmith92008

He had some sound ideas...for his time.


182 posted on 05/25/2004 11:34:02 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

Kerry Poet?

What are you gonna say next, "It takes one to know one?"

Were done, you continue on with your childish rants if you wish, but I've already answered ALL of you questions.

VP Out


183 posted on 05/25/2004 11:35:34 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: Veracious Poet
You haven't answered anything Kerry Poet...you skipped, twisted and still refuse to identify the majority anti-war group you represent...you know, the one that makes us Conservatives who support the War on Terror the minority.

What group is that other then the anti-war group so ably represented by your spirtual mates Michael Moore and Jim McDermott?

184 posted on 05/25/2004 11:38:11 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Veracious Poet
I guess we will just have to accept your avoidance of identifying your majority "kamp" as being nothing less then the only group that can come close to making Conservatives supporting the war a minority...the Michael Moore and Jim McDermott "kamp".

You do them proud.

185 posted on 05/25/2004 11:41:44 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Petronski

If you haven't seen it, don't bother...

The guys certifiably nuts.


186 posted on 05/25/2004 11:46:10 AM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: CWOJackson

So stock exchanges are passe?


187 posted on 05/25/2004 11:46:29 AM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: asmith92008
Not at all...but Hamilton would faint if faced with International exchanges that can transfer billions in an electronic second.

I never said I wasn't a Burr fan.

188 posted on 05/25/2004 11:52:42 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Veracious Poet

I don't think you can point it out.


189 posted on 05/25/2004 11:53:25 AM PDT by Petronski (They could choose between shame and war: Some chose shame, but got war anyway.)
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To: Veracious Poet
So there Kerry Poet...ready to come clean on the majority anti-war "kamp" you speak for? Or are you content with simply being identified with the only anti-war "kamp" that could possibly out number Conservative Americans who support the war?

The Moore/McDermott/Streisand "kamp".

190 posted on 05/25/2004 11:54:35 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Petronski
"If you haven't seen it, don't bother..."

He must be talking about his anti-war buddy Michael Moore's last film. He seems to like the current one just fine.

191 posted on 05/25/2004 11:56:32 AM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

interesting that you don't reveal where you stand on traditional conservative issues -- pro-life, tax cuts, racial quotas, conservative judges, gay marriage, immigration. Confirms my suspicion that your only issue is war in the middle east.


192 posted on 05/25/2004 11:58:34 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
QUESTION: Would you like to be a democrat, a Republican, or a Libertarian?"

NEOCON: "Yes!"
193 posted on 05/25/2004 11:59:15 AM PDT by FrankR
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To: churchillbuff
QUESTION: Would you like to be a democrat, a Republican, or a Libertarian?"

NEOCON: "Yes!"
194 posted on 05/25/2004 11:59:29 AM PDT by FrankR
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To: churchillbuff
Interesting? Not at all, that is reserved for threads involving such issues...not for the likes of your usual defeatist threads.

I am sorry that someone did claim your were canadian however. I lost all respect for canada over the past several years...but even I wouldn't impose you on that pathetic bunch.

195 posted on 05/25/2004 12:01:26 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: churchillbuff
QUESTION: What would you most like to be; a democrat, a Republican, or a Libertarian?"

NEOCON: "Yes!"
196 posted on 05/25/2004 12:02:29 PM PDT by FrankR
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To: FrankR
The question for him should be, "Would you rather be a Quisling, a defeatist or a Chamberlain fan."

He'd take all three.

197 posted on 05/25/2004 12:02:37 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: churchillbuff
you don't have any interest (at least that you make public) in pro-life, tax cuts, racial quotas, conservative judges, sanctity of marriage or the immigration mess - - and yet you have the gall to question my conservative commitment, when I've been posting on these issues for six years.

If it doesn't involve bloodshed in the middle east, you're not interested. But that doesn't make you a conservative, it just makes you some guy who is obsessed with the middle east.

198 posted on 05/25/2004 12:03:01 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: xJones
Oooh, I see. Foreign antisemites denounce the role of da jooz in US foreign policy, ergo the role of jooz in US foreign policy creates openings for our enemies, ergo the jooz have too big a role in US foreign policy. Ergo, whatever foreign antisemites allege is true. Ergo, to understand everything we must become foreign antisemites. Brilliant. Such reasoning. Why hadn't we all thought of it before? Replace with any term you like and prove anything you like. All you need is one immoral enemy idiot anywhere in the world to agree.
199 posted on 05/25/2004 12:03:15 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: Veracious Poet

So, I guess the obvious answer remains...you speak in sympathy and concert with that sweaty fat slob, the hero of your anti-war "kamp", Michael Moore.


200 posted on 05/25/2004 12:03:40 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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