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The Neoconservative Persuasion
Weekly Standard ^ | 2003 | Irving Kristol

Posted on 05/24/2004 4:42:38 PM PDT by churchillbuff

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To: CWOJackson; churchillbuff

I'd say you've changed the subject to fit your agenda, CWO.

In fact, I'd also say it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're about as conservative as Kerry - Who also wanted us in war with Iraq.

Self-delusion is a sign of of an inability to cope with reality.

Face it Jack, you're a closet liberal.


351 posted on 05/25/2004 4:40:11 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: churchillbuff

Mistaken again there Chamberlainbuff. Not just supportive of our troops and the war they are fighting, but also I'm opposed to those who attempt to undermine their morale or our national resolves. That would be defeatists like you.


352 posted on 05/25/2004 4:41:39 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man

Sure thing there "true" conservative...don't worry yourself. There are a lot of good Americans in uniform fighting for your sorry butt.


353 posted on 05/25/2004 4:43:48 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: nopardons; asmith92008

Your papers please.

[Stalinist phrase intended]

Funny thing is, you can't go anywhere in America without your "papers", that is unless you're an illegal alien.


354 posted on 05/25/2004 4:43:51 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man

Iraq is not a quagmire.


355 posted on 05/25/2004 4:44:14 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: churchillbuff

So you never did say anything Zinni's financial dealings. Pretty good deal. Possible $8.8 million profit off the body of each USS Cole sailor.


356 posted on 05/25/2004 4:45:12 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man

Erronious historical "facts",dubious analogy vis-a-vis our being in Iraq and/or what'll happen there,and constant defeatism only plays into the hands of our enemies.


357 posted on 05/25/2004 4:46:27 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: CWOJackson

"There are a lot of good Americans in uniform fighting for your sorry butt."

My butt can fend for itself, and it isn't sorry about it in the least, thank you very much!

Oh man, if I lowered myself to your level of yellow-forum ethics Jack, I could really go places with your comment considering the recent news in Iraq.


358 posted on 05/25/2004 4:48:00 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: MEG33

I disagree, and according to recent polls so do a majority of Americans.


359 posted on 05/25/2004 4:49:14 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
HUNH?

We can't go anywhere in America,without being asked for our papers? Gee...we went on vacation a month ago and no one,NO ONE at all,asked to "see my papers";not in ANY state we drove through!

360 posted on 05/25/2004 4:49:31 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: 21st Century Man

Your butt can fend for itself. Actually, it isn't much more then a french beret...worn in the same fashion I see.


361 posted on 05/25/2004 4:53:31 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: nopardons

I guess you didn't fly, check into any hotels, have any encounters with LEOs, etc.


362 posted on 05/25/2004 4:56:09 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: nopardons
Wow, it's "always in the movies." I'm sorry for not acknowledging Hollywood's portrayal of history as conclusive. Silly me. I guess I should also think all Vietnam vets were sadistic killers or lunatics (Platoon, Causalities of War, Apocalypse Now), that our interventions against Communist forces in South America were acts of crypto-fascism (Miami Vice) and that evangelical Christians are morons (Inherit the Wind, Elmer Gantry, 21 Jump Street).

And though we did pay some bribes, in order to buy time to develop our forces, we did eventually act against the Barbary pirates and gave them sufficient enough of a drubbing so that we didn't have to worry about them.

As to isolationism, George Washington pointedly kept us out of European conflicts. Jefferson, though a fan of the French Revolution also stated on numerous occasions that America;'s interests and Europe's interests were quite different and should not be conflated. For several quotes supporting this contention, visit this web page from the University of Virginia. http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1400.htm The "Monroe DOCTORINE" was designed to keep European powers out and America's sphere of influence isolated.

Finally, why put "goods" in quotes? It's not like goods is an idiosyncratic term or an oxymoron like "gay marriage." So why not just say goods? It's a small (and admittedly pedantic) point on my part but it kind of worked on me like a piece of popcorn between the teeth.
363 posted on 05/25/2004 5:01:14 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: churchillbuff; Long Cut

Right now we have a war to win and our own military in the field....Getting behind the mission and hoping for success is most important...

It is a tough thing to do when one did not support going to war from the beginning, but no sane person wants us to fail or to pull out right now..

To point out endlessly when we go wrong seems almost like gloating and it suggests being "right" is more important than is the success for our country and for the Iraqis.

God bless our armed forces and their loved ones who wait at home.


364 posted on 05/25/2004 5:02:50 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: MEG33
Thanks Meg...fortunately most American's are like you. You can see it in the wonderful pro-troops rallys outside Ft. Lewis (I guess some would consider them pro-war). You see it in the many banners on the fence outside the gate at the fort...put there by decent American's like you.

You see it on the interstate overpass, choked with yellow ribbons, put there by people who understand the unfortunately necessity for the war and who want to show the troops that they are supported.

And once in a while you see the otherside, the anti-war protestors on an overpass.

365 posted on 05/25/2004 5:11:32 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

God help this country if we facture and pull apart instead of fighting the terrorists, the Islamofascist....We may disagree on process at times but our aim must be the same..victory over the terrorists and defeat of the Blame America Firsters....

I thank God for all who serve and have served to keep us free.

BUSH/CHENEY...04...


366 posted on 05/25/2004 5:21:40 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: churchillbuff

neo

- \Ne"o-\ [Gr. ? youthful, new. See New.] A prefix meaning new, recent, late; and in chemistry designating specifically that variety of metameric hydrocarbons which, when the name was applied, had been recently classified, and in which at least one carbon atom in connected directly with four other carbon atoms; -- contrasted with normal and iso-; as, neopentane; the neoparaffins. Also used adjectively.

con·ser·va·tive (kn-sûrv-tv)
adj.
Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.

Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

n.
One favoring traditional views and values.
A supporter of political conservatism.
Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Archaic. A preservative agent or principle.



ne·o·con·ser·va·tism also ne·o-con·ser·va·tism (n-kn-sûrv-tzm)
n.
An intellectual and political movement in favor of political, economic, and social conservatism that arose in opposition to the perceived liberalism of the 1960s: “The neo-conservatism of the 1980s is a replay of the New Conservatism of the 1950s, which was itself a replay of the New Era philosophy of the 1920s” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).


367 posted on 05/25/2004 5:23:42 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK (Let your opponent point to you the way to overcome him.)
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To: CWOJackson; MEG33

"Thanks Meg...fortunately most American's are like you."

Not according to this:

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/24747.htm

May 25, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - "President Bush gave last night's Iraq speech at a time when his job-approval ratings, especially on Iraq, have plummeted to the lowest point yet, a new CBS News poll found.
Americans now disapprove of how Bush is handling Iraq by nearly a 2-1 margin - 61 percent turn thumbs down and just 34 percent approve, the poll found, indicating the war has become a major political liability."


368 posted on 05/25/2004 5:25:38 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: MEG33
Thanks Meg. I really don't see the point of the continuous posting of the negative stuff, either. Okay, we get the point, you don't like the war.

Thing is, it's not going away. The fact of reality is, we're NOT going to just pick up and leave Iraq, and abandon the Terror War just to put all those troops along the Mexican border.

My only worry is in what the damned Left has done so far to the war effort. Since only a few DAYS after 9-11, they've been relentless in their opposition and condescension to it and the CinC. You can clearly see it in the polls. The newweasels, the academics, the Hollywood types, and a hundred OTHER Leftist groups have barely stopped to wolf down a granola bar whilst doing their level best to make us lose.

Now, some conservatives have joined them.

Iraq is not the end of this either. There will be more targets, but now I have serious doubt that we will be able to muster support to take them on amongst the folks at home. Frankly, I can't see it happening again for a long time. Afghanistan and Iraq are not the ONLY countries we'll need to fight before this is over. I just hope it won't take another attack on our soil to make that point to most Americans.

369 posted on 05/25/2004 5:26:41 PM PDT by Long Cut ("Fightin's commenced, Ike, now get to fightin' or get outta the way!"...Wyatt Earp, in Tombstone)
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To: 21st Century Man

Whew, using CBS as your source and you call yourself a conservative, LOL!


370 posted on 05/25/2004 5:30:12 PM PDT by Dane
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To: 21st Century Man

Thanks for showing up to demonstrate exactly what I said.


371 posted on 05/25/2004 5:30:41 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Dane

He calls himself a "true" conservative.


372 posted on 05/25/2004 5:32:45 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Dane; CWOJackson

Here's another:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/focus/sr030610.asp

"There has been little change in the overall level of support for the war in Iraq. According to a new Gallup Poll conducted this past weekend, 45% of Americans say it was worth going to war in Iraq, while a slight majority, 52%, say it was not worth it. At the beginning of the month, by a margin of 50% to 47%, Americans said the war was worth it, but support for the war dropped a week later, with 44% in a May 7-9 poll saying it was worth going to war in Iraq and 54% saying it was not."

Got any data to dispute these numbers?


373 posted on 05/25/2004 5:34:46 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: MEG33; 21st Century Man; churchillbuff
God help this country if we facture and pull apart instead of fighting the terrorists, the Islamofascist...

That's exactly what 21st Century oddity and Chamberlainbuff want and are trying to do on FR.

374 posted on 05/25/2004 5:35:20 PM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane

Actually it's not.

I'd like to see the conservative movement return to it's roots.

Presently most conservatives seem hell-bent on growing govnerment at rates not seen since FDR's days.

Of course, FDR is a hero of the Neo-Cons, so go figure.


375 posted on 05/25/2004 5:37:56 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
Yes, you, your buddies Kerry Poet, Jim McDermott, Michael Moorse and the liberal media all claim your side is winning.

Don't be offended when Conservative American's don't run up the white flag.

376 posted on 05/25/2004 5:38:07 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man

I don't form my opinion by the polls but by informing myself and reading...I have lived through too many wars to expect things to always go my way or to happen as planned..The media has printed all negatives and very little of the good things..

The media can defeat us here.

The naysayers and summer soldiers who run at the thought of sacrifice and hardship can defeat us here.

The liberal peaceniks are socialists and want to defeat us.

The Islamofascists and ME dictators and mullahs would love to defeat us...


377 posted on 05/25/2004 5:38:38 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: 21st Century Man
Got any data to dispute these numbers?

Nope, anyway even with these numbers you are showing(which was from adults, not likely, or even registered voters, so that means half of those polled with your sources, will not even vote based on past election turnout).

kerry and Bush are tied.

But what the hey you can whack off yourself silly on these polls as your try to create dissent and help the fifth column try to defeat the war effort.

378 posted on 05/25/2004 5:39:41 PM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane

oops...fracture


379 posted on 05/25/2004 5:40:20 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: CWOJackson

"Don't be offended when Conservative American's don't run up the white flag."

Offended, hell I'd be happier than a pig in mud.

It's about time we stop surrendering to socialist, BIG government ideologies.


380 posted on 05/25/2004 5:41:20 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
Of course, FDR is a hero of the Neo-Cons, so go figure

FDR was a hero of Ronald Reagan's also. Time for you to tar and feather the gipper.

381 posted on 05/25/2004 5:41:45 PM PDT by Dane
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To: MEG33
God Bless you Meg.

Our troops are on the other side of the world fighting and dying to defend out nation. They cannot be beaten on the battlefield, but as you point out, they can be beat at home.

But people like you deserve much credit yourself. You understand that danger and you are standing up and fighting for those troops. We owe then no less.

I'm proud to be serving with you in that regard.

382 posted on 05/25/2004 5:42:35 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: 21st Century Man
It's about time we stop surrendering to socialist, BIG government ideologies

I agree, especially your french socialistic appeasment to terrorism.

383 posted on 05/25/2004 5:43:12 PM PDT by Dane
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To: 21st Century Man
"Offended, hell I'd be happier than a pig in mud."

Of course you would, you and Michael Moore wallow in it all the time.

384 posted on 05/25/2004 5:43:21 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Dane

I'm not a huge fan of Reagon, he was for open borders just like Bush.

And just like Bush, he gave ALL the illegals Mexico could send us amnesty.

Was that a good thing in your book?

In fact, the only President I truly admire is George Washington.

But I aim high, REAL high.

Too bad so few presidents have aspired to follow in the Father of the Republic's footsteps.


385 posted on 05/25/2004 5:46:50 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
I'm not a huge fan of Reagon

I am not surprised. The modern President that you seem to admire the most is jacques chirac.

386 posted on 05/25/2004 5:50:33 PM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane

But he aims high...which would explain so many self inflicted arse wounds.


387 posted on 05/25/2004 5:53:08 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson

Thank you....I wish we could put aside our conservative differences and all join to support our nation in its quest for solutions to the terror threats today. Our troops deserve no less....

Iraq is a long range plan to help the ME have one country with a more just government and a place where terror doesn't have a chaotic place to train and base...The President said we are not trying to make them like Americans.


388 posted on 05/25/2004 5:53:30 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: 21st Century Man
In fact, the only President I truly admire is George Washington.

I admire more Presidents than just him, but I'll say one thing, he was the only President they had to talk into taking the job, and that speaks volumes. In any position of authority it is best to begin with a little skepticism.

That being said though, I don't think President Bush is power hungry. And while I'm sure he wants to be re-elected, if he's not he'll return to 'civilian' life happy, not besotted with the thought that he no longer wields power. Clinton is just the opposite.

His desire for the Presidency should have raised everyone's suspicion merely by dint of the fact that he'd been longing for it since he was 16. That's abnormal, and he's abnormal!

389 posted on 05/25/2004 5:53:46 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: MEG33
The President was very good last night.

And today we have reports coming out of the serious threat of a major attack in America this year...just like in Spain.

The Spanish crumbled. I know most of America is far better then that.

390 posted on 05/25/2004 5:55:44 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: AlbionGirl

Kerry has had his eye on the prize almost as long as Clinton did...scary.


391 posted on 05/25/2004 5:56:29 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: CWOJackson

I still believe in the ability of Americans to face the danger and not surrender to it.


392 posted on 05/25/2004 5:57:57 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: MEG33

You know, for the longest time, I couldn't quite work up a healthy dislike for Kerry, probably in part because he did serve his Country, and that means a lot to me, even if I'm at odds with nearly all his views. But, his conduct since just before winning the primaries and to date is shocking in its baseness. I think I'm starting to dislike him as much as I did clinton, and that's saying something!


393 posted on 05/25/2004 6:00:33 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: MEG33
The wife and I were in Malaga, Spain not long after the bombings. Most people don't realize that the new government won by a slim margin. And despite the european polls some like to post here, the people in Spain are basically 60-40 split.

The 60 pretty much represent the cities, the intellectuals...the liberals. The 40 represent the common people, including those in Malaga who came up to us to apologize...it also represents the Spanish military troops who cried when they found out they were being withdrawn.

Fortunately for us, I think the split is more like 70-30. The anti-war crowd are loud but they really don't speak for America. When push comes to shove Conservative Americans and the run of the mill every day Democrats do what's necessary to win.

394 posted on 05/25/2004 6:02:48 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: AlbionGirl

Have you seen his testimony before the Congressional committee in 71 and what his fellow swift boat commanders have said? The Winter Soldier.com site is a treasure trove of info!


395 posted on 05/25/2004 6:16:35 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: CWOJackson; churchillbuff
Gotta log off for the night.

Do you want to start a pool of when chamberlainbuff posts his next fifth column screed on FR?

I'll take 1:00 AM Eastern.

396 posted on 05/25/2004 6:29:23 PM PDT by Dane
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To: churchillbuff
One month does not make every month. I believe we are headed for about 60 or so this month. All of us in the military knew these would be tougher months as we head toward June 30. Those against the US are desperate and pulling out all stops, but they are still losing.

What is amazing, and not reported in the US press, is that Pres Bush is supported by more Iraqis than Americans. Very strange.

We have become a country that demands perfection and very short wars. Totally afraid to take any risks. I shudder to think of what Roosevelt would have been faced with in WWII. A year after Pearl Harbor, we had our lunch handed to us in North Africa. I am so glad Americans did not panic then and force the President to withdraw and give into the Nazis.

Since 1898, the average time required to affect post-conflict operations following a war that we won has been 4+years. We are now at 1 year, yet too many "conservations" are panicking because of leftist news reporting and Michael Moore types.

I choose to stay with Bush rather than Michael Moore. After the election, we can argue about better ways to take out terrorists if you like, but until then all the carping is only helping Kerry, and more importantly to me, destroying the moral of our troops.
397 posted on 05/25/2004 6:30:32 PM PDT by Proud Legions
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To: Dane

It's hard to tell, as globally, leftist papers with anti-war screeds go to press at all hours of the day and night.


398 posted on 05/25/2004 6:31:08 PM PDT by Petronski (They could choose between shame and war: Some chose shame, but got war anyway.)
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To: Howlin
I am sick of people like you who are doing every single thing you can 24/7 to make sure John Kerry wins in November.

Ditto Howlin.

399 posted on 05/25/2004 6:32:14 PM PDT by Petronski (They could choose between shame and war: Some chose shame, but got war anyway.)
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To: Proud Legions

conservations=conservatives


400 posted on 05/25/2004 6:32:55 PM PDT by Proud Legions
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