Skip to comments.Democrats pushing Albanian cause?
Posted on 05/26/2004 1:25:08 PM PDT by dj_animal_2000
According to Belgrade daily Vecernje Novosti (Evening News), the most influential Albanian drganizer of the event was Richard Holbrooke, while many of his former cohorts from the Clinton days took part: Madeleine Albright, Wesley Clark and James Rubin, as well as local Congressman Eliott Engel, known supporter of Albanian causes.
"The purpose of the meeting was to raise funds and secure Albanian-American votes for Democratic presidential candidate [John] Kerry," says the Novosti report, adding that in return, the Democrats promised Albanians the independence of Kosovo.
The unnamed Novosti source in New York also claims that Kosovo Albanians sent a low-level delegation to the meeting, trying to stay below radar. Among the conclusions of the gathering, the report alleges, was that the process of Kosovo's separation was proceeding according to plan; that the March attacks on Serbs did some short-term damage to the cause, but that in the big picture, the ethnic cleansing that occurred actually served the Albanians' purpose.
Kosovo and American Albanians were supposedly also told that if Kerry were elected, he would most likely appoint Holbrooke the new Secretary of State, and he would continue Albright's policies, namely support the independence of Kosovo.
General Wesley Clark, reportedly admonished the Kosovo Albanians for the March events, tlling them to "influence their local commanders so as to improve relations with KFOR," say Novosti.
According to the paper, the participants agreed to organize the All-Albanian Congress, which would formulate the new strategy of Albanian national policy in the Balkans; the Congress would take place mid-summer, in Macedonia...
Unless someone can place Clark, Albright, Rubin and Holbrooke in New York this Monday, it's hard to say whether this report is accurate or not. Certainly, all of them have been very supportive of Albanian causes, specifically endorsing the independence of Kosovo. That Holbrooke might be Kerry's StateSec is a rumor circulating for quite some time.
I suppose we'll know for sure if that All-Albanian Congress is really held in Macedonia this summer...
Well, Serbs are mainly Christian, so they are on the top of the Democrats' enemies list (tied with Jews).
No big surprise, all birds of a feather.
It's a given that the Clintonistas still support Kaiser Willie's policies that aided the KLA narco-terrorists in Kosovo. They have the full support of the leftist press to keep Clinton's Quagmire off of the front pages.
Guess, I would be then the "real threat" for the RATS....
I'm a serbian Jew...
I'm a conservative American Jew from New York... their worst nightmare ;)
There is no way that Europe will allow for Kosovar independence. A Muslim country in the heart of Europe? The religion of their former conqueror? Same goes for Bosnia. It also partly explains why Turkey has been waiting almost 20 years to get into the European Union. Or I should say, I don't THINK Europe is that crazy just yet.
The war in Kosovo was promoted as a remedy for "ethnic cleansing," yet we've seen it was clearly intended to cleanse Kosovo of the Serbs and allow it to be overrun by the "ethnic Albanians." The whole thing is based on the insane idea that we can make the Islamists our friends by strengthening their position in Europe. Liberals still think they can find common cause with the Islamists, and are too stupid to realize that the Islamists are just using them to further their own anti-democratic objectives.
Albright in Europe trying to get americans of those ethnic groups to donate money.
Albania is a bloody mess, many of the abanians have fled illegally to greece. Publicising Democrats soliciting the helping of albanians should have the opposite effect with Greek voters.
Good to know that I'm not alone...
A big SHALOM from Nashville, TN
This is from the archetechs of failure, they still believe their failed plans will work if they keep repeating their failures.
Albright is a disgrace and a discredit to america. It must gall her that her father's brightest student was not her, it was condi rice.
There is no way that Europe will allow for Kosovar independence
I've heard from other sources that Kerry plans to appoint the Fat Rat Holbrooke as Secretary of State if he wins the Presidency. What a disaster!!!! And that disaster would affect MUCH more than Balkan issues!!!!
I am another kind of big nightmare for clintonites, "human rightsers", and islamoNazis--an American Lutheran who identifies with the Serbs. The gay/feminazi/liberal cabal that controls the Democrats is attacking the Lutheran church--as well as most other US Christian bodies--big-time. They are using the "gay issue" as a wedge against Christians--to enact "hate crime" laws and charge Christians as "criminals" for defending our faith or even reading the "wrong" scriptures in church. Electing Kerry may well mean that this kind of anti-Christian persecution will occur sooner rather than later!!!!
"I'm a serbian Jew..."
I'm neither of those, dj, but proud to stand beside you to fight the democraps. My son is of Serbian heritage.
The islamists and the dnc lefty commies are using each other to accomplish their anti democratic objectives. They aren't naive enough to believe all the multi-cult-one world crap they're expecting everyone else to believe.
Thank you for your informative post, SQUID. I've been screaming about it all for years. Most people say, "KOSO..who?"
And you're right and America will go the way of Serbia if this invasion of illegal immigration isn't stopped including islamic jihadists, Mexicans and all those coming here ILLEGALLY. Of course that means getting rid of about 75% of our legislators. I'm up for that!
testing, testing, I'm not banned anymore, testing... :-)))
Well, Albanians are not stupid as Serbs to believe truth will see the light of the day by itself. Rudder and Finn were to expensive for Serbs, not to mention lobbying like Jews, Greeks, Armenians, or, in the end, Croats and Albanians. So, as serbian proverb says "two without a soul make third without a head".
Clap, clap, clap for albanians!
yesterday a Serb got shot in Kosovo. He'll survive. What a happiness.
see ya, gotta go, maybe moderator might see me posting, so I have to be short in typing!
(joke, joke, plz don't ban me again!)
shalom to our jewish friends, schmor al atzmeha!
I have a question for you. I read another article about Iraq earlier. It mentioned, among many others, that Albania is one of our "allies" in Iraq. Is that why this administration is totally silent on Kosovo?
strong ally... 50 soldiers and a dog.
Hey, good to see that you're back here!
Of course, it's also a good thing that you're return is going to annoying the heck out of a couple of Islamonazis that we all know! LOL!
Just make sure that you do not annoy the moderators (shaking index finger sternly at the Captain)!
AuntB, although a small country, Albania has done all that it could as an ally (without quotation marks) of the United States. Here's some excerpts from the U.S. State Department web-site on Albania:
MILITARY AFFAIRS. Since the fall of Communism in 2001, Albania has played a constructive role in resolving several of the inter-ethnic conflicts in south central Europe, promoting peaceful dispute resolution and discouraging ethnic-Albanian extremists. Albania sheltered many thousands of Kosovar refugees during the 1999 conflict, and now provides logistical assistance for Kosovo Force troops. Albania is part of the international Strategic Force serving in Bosnia, and Albanian peacekeepers are part of the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan and the international stabilization force in Iraq. Albania has been a steadfast supporter of U.S. policy in Iraq, and one of only four nations to contribute troops to the combat phase of Operation Enduring Freedom.
FOREIGN RELATIONS. Albania maintains generally good relations with its neighbors ... It re-established diplomatic relations with the Former Republic of Yugoslavia following the ouster of Slobodan Milosovic in 2000. Although the final status of Kosovo remains a key issue in Albanian-Serbian relations, both nations are committed to achieving a peaceful resolution. ... Albania has also arrested and prosecuted several ethnic-Albanian extremists on charges of inciting interethnic hatred in Macedonia and Kosovo.
U.S.-ALBANIAN RELATIONS. Albania enjoys friendly and cooperative bilateral relations with the U.S. Pro-U.S. sentiment is widespread among the population. Even while the U.S., which had closed its mission to Albania in 1946, was being vilified by Communist propaganda during the Hoxha regime, ordinary Albanians remembered that Woodrow Wilson had protected Albanian independence in 1919. Albanians credit the U.S. bombing of Serbia in 1999 with saving thousands of Kosovar-Albanian lives.
In 2003, Albania and the U.S. signed and ratified a number of agreements, including a treaty on the Prevention of Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Promotion of Defense and Military Relations; the Adriatic Charter; and an Agreement regarding the surrender of persons to the International Criminal Court. The U.S. strongly supports Albania's EU and NATO membership goals. Despite its daunting problems at home, Albania has wholeheartedly supported the U.S. in the global war on terrorism, by freezing terrorist assets, shutting down suspect Islamic NGOs, expelling Islamic extremists, and providing military and diplomatic support for the U.S.-led actions in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Welcome back, Captain. Although throwing you off was, in my opinion, an over-reaction, I do agree with the policy of not allowing graphic photos.
As to Albania as an ally of the USA, they have provided a company to SFOR in Bosnia, a Special Operations platoon in Afghanistan, and another company in Iraq (for months attached to the 502d Infantry of the 101st Airborne). Their commandoes in Iraq repulsed an Iraqi attack on the 101st's main airfield near Mosul, have been in several engagements, and have had at least one wounded. Just as we have, they are rotating their units in and out of theater, so they've had about a battalion + either already there or currently serving on OIF & OEF.
After the lefties in our own country arranged to shut down our training base on Vieques Island (Puerto Rico), Albania offered up Sazan Island in the Adriatic for our Navy and Marine amphibious groups to do their final live fire validation exercises. Various U.S. military units, to include the 173d Airborne & the Marines, have done other extended exercises in Albania.
So Shqiperia has been helping. I know the Serb military is willing to help as well, but it probably will not happen at a minimum until there is a better record in Belgrade on prosecuting war criminals--and perhaps also not as long as the Serb Radical Party plays a prominent role in the government.
Oh, that's a great idea! Help them share weaponry with the al Qaeda supporters in Bosnia with a ready-made pipeline. Brilliant move, that!
Bush should provide military help to the Serbs to help fight the Moslem terrorists from Albania, drop the case against Milosevic, after all he was defending his nation against the barbarians. Any thing less than black and white reversal of the Clinton policy would illustrate coward ness on the part of our president.
Let's see--when confronted with the facts of solid Albanian support for the USA and effective participation in the war on terror, your response is to invent a fictional scenario to prove--what? That you have an active imagination? That you know about something that nobody else has discovered in the past five years of Albanian participation in SFOR? That your dislike for Albanians trumps their demonstrated support for the USA? That you know better than Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Powell?
Philosofy, your position that President Bush is a coward for his failure to: "provide military help to the Serbs to help fight the Moslem terrorists from Albania [and] drop the case against Milosevic" indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. First, your description of the Albanians as "Moslem fanatics" is not supported by the facts. You are more likely to find Moslem fanatics in Hamtramck or London than in Albania. Prime Minister Nano of Albania is Orthodox. President Moisiu of Albania is Catholic. The laws and lifestyle of Albania are secular. There is religious freedom and mutual tolerance among adherents to the four significant relgious elements: Sunni Islam, Catholicism, Bektashi, and Orthodox. If you read the post a couple above, you can see the concrete actions the Albanians have taken to fight the real Muslem fanatics.
Second, you somehow seem to have miscast Milosevic as fighting for Christians. As you probably know, in June 1999, Patriarch Pavle of the Serbian Orthodox Church called for Milosevic's resignation and then followed up in an interview with the weekly Slobodna Bosna (Free Bosnia) on July 26th, 1999: "Milosevic is no Christian".
Slobo was and is a criminal--go to the ICTY page and read the 60+ counts on his indictment. The Patriarch recognized that and stuck to his Christian principles. From the same interview: If Greater Serbia should be built on crimes, I dont agree, let there be no Greater Serbia. If small Serbia should be built on crimes, I dont agree again, let there be no small Serbia. If it takes a crime for one only remaining Serb to survive, I dont agree again. Let us extinct, but to survive by crime, no way, Patriarch Pavle said.
What are your principles based on, Philosofy? Serb nationalist extremism or Christianity? They are not the same thing.
Hi FormerLib, thanks for warm welcome! :-)
Mark502inf, sorry, it seems to me that you serve(d) with albanians in iraq. Am I right?
Ah, yes, thanks, I too think that it was too harsh reaction by moderator, afterall, I apologised for posting pictures, after one freeper advised me on that, but it didn't help.
But, back to your post.
It's all nice that you've posted about US-Albanian relations. But don't you agree that US has a long record of nice talk about it's allies, no matter they're afghanistan mujaheedins, or central american narko-lords? Until they stop being useful, ofcourse US is not going to speak the truth about them. Remember how Alija Izetbegovic was "secular muslim leader", "peaceful democrat", and other BS?
It's the same with Albanians. The difference between Albanians and Serbs, is that Serbs didn't realise the time they were (are) living. I mean by that - no matter if you have some rights or not, it's the power that you need, it's powwerful allie that you need behind your back.
I posted it before, but serbian-americans and americans that post here seem to reluctant to accept it - Albanians are not extreme muslims, or extreme in any religion. The contacts they had with islamic terrorists, from bosnia to iran and bin ladin, were in fact their contacts with everyone there to help them create Greater Albania. So, once Bin Ladin and islamic fundamentalism became hunted animals in war on terror, albanians were trying desperately to cut down all the contacts with them. It's all. Albanians are not men of principles. They "support" USA because USA is the strongest nation in the world. Once you see US fall, or some other power become more influential, you'll see all forms of "pro-americanism" among albanians collapse. But even then, Belgrade will not change the names of the Roosevelt st. or John Kennedy st. Belgrade didn't change it during Milosevic, and will, I hope, never change them. That's principle.
During Serbian empire, albanians were loyal to serbs. during turks, except for Skenderbeg's defense (who was very close to serbs if not serb himself) , they converted to Islam by more then 70%, to become the "best allies" of the turskih empire. During WW1, and WW2, they were german allies. Now, they're with USA. And serbs had conflicts with the nations that used albanians as tools for penetration into balkans. As some measure of empires - the ones serbs fight with and albanians colaborate, are empires. I just hope that US strategists will see, that if you defend principles, you'll have serbs as allies. If you want immoral killers to do dirty jobs, you'll rely on albanians, but beware not to lose the position of the strongest nation. Germans were the strongest in the balkans for two times, and serbs fought with them. There was none to help us. Now, we have to obay in order to survive. I would send serb troops to iraq if that would bring mercy to my people. Yes, Radicals wouldn't. They're too much idealists. It's bad for small nations. We were stupid for standing up to austria-hungary, germany... we shoud have done the same as everybody else. Obay them, be their puppets, and after the western allies defeat them , just switch sides. But no, we had to lose about 3 millions of lives in world wars. Stupid us.
You spoke about Milosevic. I don't like him. Since 1992, or 1993, when I was 12 years old, I didn't like him. I have many things against him. But he was never a nationalist. He was never a real christian. He was something like leftist atheist power greedy man. He greeted monks with "hello comrades monks" :-) But he was the one to say in 1987 to kosovo serbs:"none shall beat you anymore!" And that made him big, and he was riding on that wave of 1987-1992 popular support, because he stood up against position serbian nation was in. And it was awful position.
If kosovo albanians were sincere, they would go out to vote in 1992 to throw milosevic out from the office. it was possible! But they didn't! they never wanted to be equal citizens. what did they want? they wanted kosovo as it is today. to kill serbs, and burn their temples, without fear that serbs might strike back.
You were talking about Patriarch Pavle. Maybe you heard what you liked. Maybe you should have heard what Patriarch had to say about his years of service in Kosovo during communist rule. About numerous attacks on him, by albanian mob, or even by individuals. Not just on him, but on other serbian priests, monks, common people. Sacral objects. And lack of protection from state officials.
Albanian tolerance inside albania? there were thousands and thousands of serbs in northern albania in 19th century still. What about now? Serbs were fleeing their territories infront of turks, but someone always stayed. Now there are almost no serbs in albania. And the rest of them live in fear. They could have just dreamed about rights albanians had in serbia, before as well as during milosevic.
Albania is corrupted state to the bottom. Tribes and clans have most of the influence. politicians are puppets. Albanian mafia is now one of the strongest organized crime groups in the world. European narcotic market, prostitution, mostly under their hands. Thousands of albanian girls are crossing adriatics to become prostitutes in western europe. That's what they do to their own children.
Ok, again, we serbs will have to wait. but, as I said in American University in Bulgaria, I say it again - the very minute US leaves Kosovo, or stop defending albanians, serbs will rush down. We'll never forget. Kosovo is all we have. Our fundamental traditions, our national philosophy, our songs and national costumes, it's all about Kosovo. The national hat in the area where I come from (Krajina, today under croatia) is red on top and black around, symbolising red blood of fallen heroes and black for mourning over Kosovo. It has nine long... how to say, small woolen "tails" in the beck, to symbolise unity after 9 Jugovic brothers that died gloriously in Kosovo battle. Hundreds and hundreds of kilometers away, there's another Kosovo field, and small Kosovcica river, and small Lazarica church, named after prince Lazar. We deserted communism. Now we have to rely on some other tradition, system of values. We have nothing but Kosovo. Most important, all our emotions toward Kosovo aside, we have right on it, and we'll claim it sooner or later. Yes, we're in deep sh** now, and many people believe we don't care. But we cared for almost 500 years, and we came back. It wouldn't be our first time to do it again.
No, but you are close. I had previously served in the 502d and a friend of mine was commanding it in Iraq when the Albanians were attached. Also, I served on the U.S. European Command and Army and NATO staffs in positions dealing with the Balkans that included well over a year "boots on the ground" in Albania and Macedonia; with some time also in Kosovo.
But don't you agree that US has a long record of nice talk about it's allies, no matter they're afghanistan mujaheedins, or central american narko-lords? Until they stop being useful, ofcourse US is not going to speak the truth about them.
Alliances are primarily based on shared interests, not friendship. Remember, the USA allied with the Soviet Union against Hitler based on their mutual interest in defeating Hitler. And even though they had fought hard against the Nazis previously, some Serbian Chetniks later fought alongside the Germans in order to stop the communists. And less than a decade after a fight to the death in WWII, the Germans were standing side by side with the Americans on the border in the common interest of facing down the Soviets and deterring a communist attack. Think of Bulgaria and Serbia as allies against the Ottomans in 1912 and only months later fighting a war against each other. Circumstances change and so do allies. As for speaking the truth about allies, the Afghan mujahadeen were not attacking Americans while we were helping them fight the Soviets and the big narko-traffickers in Latin America were not our alliesthe government of El Salvador and the Contras--but were (and are) the FARC/ELN communists in Colombia.
I posted it before, but serbian-americans and americans that post here seem to reluctant to accept it - Albanians are not extreme muslims, or extreme in any religion
Good luck with that! Ive tried, but as youve noticedmany of the posters are more comfortable with spouting their prejudices and pre-conceived notions than they are with accommodating their views to the truth. I had to travel and live extensively in Albanian populated areas. Religion was mostly honored in the breach there; and similarlybut to a lesser degreein the Slavic areas as well! At the appointed time for worship, I always saw more people outside of churches or mosques or tekkes than inside. And on major holidays, the Albanians often attended services of other religionsCatholic churches were mobbed with non-Catholics on Christmas and the same with Orthodox churches on Easter.
If kosovo albanians were sincere, they would go out to vote in 1992 to throw milosevic out from the office. it was possible! But they didn't
True-their votes could have made the difference. Ive heard three versions of why they did not vote: 1-the Kosovar Albs had already decided on independence and voting in the national election would give legitimacy to a government they had rejected. 2-Their votes didnt matterMilosevic would rig the election to win no matter what the actual vote count was. 3-By not voting, they ensured Milosevic would win and would thus maintain international legitimacy, sympathy, and support by being the victims and opposition to someone who had taken away Albanian autonomy and was already reviled internationally as a thug.
You were talking about Patriarch Pavle. Maybe you heard what you liked. Maybe you should have heard what Patriarch had to say about his years of service in Kosovo during communist rule.
I understand what Patriarch Pavle has gone through. However, I was answering yet another poster who was trying to associate Milosevics actions with Christianity (not sure if doing that is closer to a joke or blasphemy), which was why I used the Patriarchs comments about Milosevic as a criminal, not a Christian. I have read what Pavle has said about the travails of Serbs in Kosovo, but there is nobody here saying anything to contradict those comments.
I say it again - the very minute US leaves Kosovo, or stop defending albanians, serbs will rush down. We'll never forget. Kosovo is all we have. We have nothing but Kosovo. Most important, all our emotions toward Kosovo aside, we have right on it, and we'll claim it sooner or later. Yes, we're in deep sh** now, and many people believe we don't care. But we cared for almost 500 years, and we came back. It wouldn't be our first time to do it again.
And, of course, the Albanians claim Kosovo as the descendants of the Illyrians; as the most numerous ethnic group since shortly after the Serb Great Migration in 1690, and as the cradle of the Albanian nationalist movement; as well as by denying the legitimacy of the 1913 decision of the Great Powers to give Albanian-populated Kosovo to Serbia after almost 500 years as part of the Ottoman Empire. All those points are arguable, but they are believed by the Albanians just as much as your points are believed by the Serbs. And that is why the Kosovo problem is so tough.
I had the privilege of having an extended conversation with a very high ranking politician from one of your neighboring (not Albania) countries and he talked of Voivodina & Kosovo. His theory was that an expansive and uniform system of human rightsfreedom of speech, travel, religion, association, property rights, personal security, etcwould make Balkans borders less relevant and also defuse tensions based on real or perceived ethnic discrimination; similar to the Standards before Status concept for Kosovo. Regardless of how imperfectly that idea is being implemented in Kosovo right now, I think it has merit--the alternative is more Serb-Albanian ping-pong with Kosovo.
If I can put my two cents in...what worries me is that the AACL (Albanian American Civic League) may be involved in this. They until recently had a map of Greater Albania on their website as well as a declaration for a unification of land where Albanians live. This included Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Greece. They also seem to have a very strong lobby group. To be honest I am worried about a "hidden agenda" where they are concerned. Now one of the reasons Serbia got bombed was because of their supposed "desire" for a Greater Serbia. Question is will a Greater Albania be allowed?
Well, seems that you're real man of the action. If it's not military secret, what's your rank?
Yes, I agree with your opinion on alliances, but why don't you say then "US has Albania for it's ally because that way is better to secure US interests in Balkans, and not because Albanians are/were oppressed by Serbs"? We can conclude that all lies and propaganda against my nation is product of Clinton's administration view that it's better for US to have Serbs as bad guys and Croatian neo-fascists, bosnian islamists, and albanian chauvinists as good guys. And this sounds logical. Why? Because - Yugoslavia, as it was, was first state in row to enter EU. Far infront of today's new EU members from eastern Europe. Hungary, Czech rep. Poland, they were far behind us. So, to secure peace and economic and political transition, US and EU just had to say to Slovenes and Croats - "If you wanna get out from Yugoslavia, do it legally. Otherwise, we won't protect you!" US and EU could have said to Albanians, "if you don't want to go out and help serbian opposition overthrow Milosevic, we'll do nothing to protect you." But here you're right. Albanians wanted independence all the time. They had Kosovo de facto republic equal if not dominant over Serbia during communist Yugoslavia, still they were not satisfied with it. Second, yes, they were very pleased to play the role of oppressed minority, having Milosevic and Serbs as bad guys already.
So, bottom line, Germany wanted destruction of Yugoslavia, thus history repeated. German alliance with Croats, Slovenes and Bosnian muslims. US granted that, out of fear that strategic partnership with Germany could be lost. Thus, Albanian cause was much easier to be achieved, once Serbs became bad guys, and Albanian contacts with Clinton's administration became strong and influential.
Ah, c mon, I guess you know that Bulgarians refused to obey the agreement on Russian arbitration regarding neutral zone in Macedonia. Thus, that problem had to be settled by arms. I'm speaking about 1913. balkan war.
I guess I didn't understand you right, you say that US supported the FARC/ELN communists in Colombia? You say US didn't know before Noriega's arrest that he was narko-lord? Anti-communist factions in central america were supported by US, and they were very close to narko-dealers.
The point is, if you're standing shoulder to shoulder with such people, your adversaries have to be much much worse people themselves, so you could explain why you have to cooperate with bad against the worse. But if your adversaries, let's say Serbs, are just fighting secessionism in their own country, how can you explain cooperation with such people as albanian mafia? I guess nobody sane her could deny KLA is controlled by albanian mafia. So, some other, deeper causes had to force you to work with them against us. Would it be albanian lobby? Maybe. But I guess it can't explain everything. I guess the game is far deeper, and we (serbs) were very short-sided to see it coming. I still can't believe we're the bad guys, not with the knowledge I have about what was going on here.
Hah, yeah, Albanians are maybe not so extreme islamists (unless they have to show as such in order to get money from Bin Ladin, Saudi Arabia, or Iran), but did you try to speak serbian in the streets of Pristina, or anywhere among Albanians? No muslim, croat or albanian was killed in Belgrade so far. Albanians got their Kosovo, but still they can't tolerate serbian langauge, not to mention serbs in Kosovo. Compare that with years of Serbian rule on Kosovo.
If you say you understood what Patriarch Pavle had gone trough in Kosovo, do you understand what that implies? Even during their absolute rule over Kosovo, from 1968 (maybe even 1966), up to 1988. albanians had everything theirs. Faculties, schools, religion, administration, police, yet they didn't tolerate Serbs. Their crimes after 1999 over serbs are not revenge, but continuation of former policy, interrupted by Milosevic.
You take albanian claims on their Illyric heritage like it's something proven. Like, I have arguments, and you have dreams, but since both of us claim property, we're in the same position. No can do. But ok. Just few points.
1 - Kosovo wasn't Illyrian, but Dardanian, and Dardan's were Thracians. Thracians weren't Illyrians
2 - Illyrians lived in Montenegro, Bosnia, Parts of Croatia. Are Albanians going to claim these lands also? if not, how can they use the same argument for Kosovo?
3 - There are no historical arguments about Albanians before 11th century.
4 - There are no records about Slavic, or Serbian, ethnic cleansing of pre-slavic population from territories they seized upon their arrival in the balkans. On the contrary, they were invited by Byzantinean emperor Heraclius (spel?) to settle in the region behind Thessalonica (macedonia), where there is still today locality of Srbitza, or Serbitza. But these Serbs moved back toward north and then scattered to the Adriatic's. What's more likely is that they mixed a lot with pre-slavic population, so called Vlachs. But Slavic element was stronger.
5 - Albanians started coming to Kosovo during ottoman rule, as part of ottoman (turkish) irregular units, para-militars, so called "bashibozluks". They plundered serbian villages, oppressed and killed Serbs. because of serbian alliance with austrians in the end of 17th century, and rebellion against turkish invaders, serbs had to flee Kosovo. But big part didn't leave. So, the ethnic structure was changing, from predominantly serbian to predominantly albanian. After WW1 there was about 50-50. Imagine, during serbian rule of terror after 1912, albanian population in Kosovo was growing! :-) Not to mention WW2 atrocities over Serbs and expulsion. Not to mention communist rule, especially from Rankovic's fall, when Albanians were able to do what was their will. So they did!
Now, after decades and centuries of oppression and ethnic cleansing and yes, genocide! over Serbs in Kosovo, you or anyone else, comes and has face to speak about Albanian rights on Kosovo, supported by incredible "theory" of Illyrian ancestry, created in Vienna in the end of 19th century?
It's not just, it's not right. They had all the power in, solely de jure Serbia, and they couldn't live with it. They got used during turkish rule to be masters and ruling elite, so once they were forced to be equal citizens, they started whining about oppression. It's not just, it's not right.
You can dismiss all borders in the balkans, but if you people can't live together there will be strong, the strongest borders again, just invisible. If Albanian would come to Kurshumlija to live, local Serbs would burn his house and demolish his shop. They did learn something out of destiny of their Kosovo cousins - never allow Albanian to be your neighbor. Otherwise your children will have to run away.
Yes, haha, there will be lot's of ping-pong with Kosovo, but basketball is realy a serbian game, so once we get the chance, we'll slam-dunk it for good. For good.
greater Albania was in interest of Nazi Germany and Italy, greater Albania is factor of destabilization of Balkans. That's why if you want to have your troops in the Balkans for some other reason, you just create instability. Instability is created best by supporting albanians. Then Serbs are scared, as well as macedonians, and greeks become more sensitive. Scared macedonians bring Bulgaria in the game. If Montenegrins are in bad position, muslims from Montenegro (and Serbia) look for their Bosnian muslim brothers. That brings bosnian serbs in the game, but also Croatia (whenever there's some turbulence in Bosnia, it's imperative for croatia to watch out, ready to intervene). It's all mixed, and you need dominant foreign power to keep it calm.
The US and Albania are allies based on both mutual interests and on what each country can provide for the other. The United States wants diplomatic and military support, the Albanians provide a reliable vote for the USA in the UN as well as in public diplomacy such as the 2003 Vilnius letter. They have opened up their training areas for US forces to conduct large-scale training exercises that are no longer permitted or possible in Germany and Italy and, in some cases, even in the USA. They provide troops for SFOR, Iraq, and Afghanistan as well as air, land, and sea rights of passage for US and NATO forces. In turn, the USA provides Albania with economic assistance, military aid, and serves as a guarantor of the security of their borders from neighboring states. Both countries want stability in Albania. The Albanian government for obvious reasons and the USA because failed states (think Afghanistan & Somalia) provide convenient bases or havens for both criminals and terrorists. And etc as we talked about previously. As for Serb oppression of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo prior to the 99 conflict, although Albanians are grateful for what the USA and NATO did to stop Milosevic, that episode is not and was not what defines the US-Albanian community of interests.
We can conclude that all lies and propaganda against my nation is product of Clinton's administration view that it's better for US to have Serbs as bad guys and Croatian neo-fascists, bosnian islamists, and albanian chauvinists as good guys.
It is better for the US to have all good guys in the Balkans and thus have peace and stability. American policy toward the Balkans has been consistent in that regard through the last three presidents and five Secretaries of State; think of the first President Bush's 1991 "Christmas Warning" to Milosevic on Kosovo and the current administration's continued commitments to SFOR and KFOR as well as the integration of former Yugo republics into structures such as Partnership for Peace, NATO, the EU, the Adriatic Charter, etc. You ignore the very real role that Milosevic and the policies under his regime played in making Serbs the "bad guys¨. Four wars, hundreds of thousand dead, a couple million refugees, Yugoslavia split up, Serbia's economy and reputation ruined all would have seemed impossible twenty years ago. It took a special kind of guy to screw things up that phenomenally and Slobo was that guy. Milosevic was the one constant in the problems of the former Yugoslavia; not the USA, not NATO, not Slovenes or Croats or Macedonians or Albanians or Bosniaks; not even Ruder-Finn or MPRI! Djindjic was a great step forward and Kostunica is OK, but he is hindered from making a clean break from the past by domestic Serbian politics. I suspect you are aware that when your Foreign Minister recently commented on Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo in 1999, this recognition of the obvious was so controversial in Serbia that he was put up for a "no confidence¨ measure in parliament that he survived by only one vote. As long as the culture of denial continues, Serbian leaders will have difficulty in gaining the kind of international credibility they need to get a satisfactory solution for the final status of Kosovo, for getting the ICTY out of the business of trying Serb war criminals instead of letting Belgrade take care of their own business, and gaining entrance to international structures such as NATO and the EU. Guaranteed that Colin Powell and Javier Solana and Tony Blair all know what took place in Kosovo in 1998-99. They are not about to turn Kosovo back over to direct Serbian rule if Serb leaders are still denying the crimes and atrocities that precipitated NATO intervention to remove Serb rule.
Albanians wanted independence all the time.
And they still do. Before 98, some sort of compromise involving autonomy may have been feasible, but not now. Any solution in the near future must be either independence or some type of cantonisation.
So, bottom line, Germany wanted destruction of Yugoslavia, thus history repeated. German alliance with Croats, Slovenes and Bosnian muslims. US granted that, out of fear that strategic partnership with Germany could be lost.
I think you are stretching things here. The US-German strategic relationship was in no way hinged on Germany's Yugoslavia policy. As for how "Germany wanted destruction of Yugoslavia", there was a school of thought at that time that diplomatic assistance and recognition of the constituent Yugoslav Republics that wanted independence would serve peace and stability. The idea was that those republics would fight for independence if they were not able to gain it peacefully. I think it is unfair to interpret Germany's actions now without reference to the concept to which they adhered to then.
Ah, c mon, I guess you know that Bulgarians refused to obey the agreement on Russian arbitration regarding neutral zone in Macedonia. Thus, that problem had to be settled by arms. I'm speaking about 1913. balkan war.
The point was on national interests and how that affects allies and alliances. Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria were allies in the 1912 Balkan War in order to free their territories from the old Ottoman Empire. All three had conflicting claims to Macedonia, but those claims were subsumed by the common interest in fighting the Turks. With the Turks defeated, the reason for the alliance disappeared and the competing claims in Macedonia became the dominant interest. As a result, the former allies became enemies and fought the 2d Balkan War amongst themselves only months later. It is a fact that Bulgaria started it!
you say that US supported the FARC/ELN communists in Colombia?
You say US didn't know before Noriega's arrest that he was narko-lord?
Sure, that is why the USA indicted Noriega almost two years before the December 1989 invasion and his arrest.
Anti-communist factions in central america were supported by US, and they were very close to narko-dealers.
The primary anti-communist fighters in Central America were the Nicaraguan Contras and the El Salvadoran government. The former had some rumors and allegations of drug-dealing that were treated as fact by the same people that believe the CIA introduced crack cocaine into the USA and that Ronald Reagan invented AIDS to kill Africans. I do not know of any involvement by the latter, but even if there were, the greatest narco-traffickers in Latin America are our enemies, the communist guerillas of Colombia.
So, some other, deeper causes had to force you to work with them against us. Would it be albanian lobby? Maybe. But I guess it can't explain everything. I guess the game is far deeper, and we (serbs) were very short-sided to see it coming.
U.S. and NATO Intervention in Kosovo was brought on by fear that the conflict and resultant humanitarian catastrophe would spread and destabilize other areas in the Balkans region. Here is a good synopsis by Ambassador A. Peter Burleigh of the United States Mission to the United Nations in a statement to the Security Council on the first day of the NATO attack:
The current situation in Kosovo is of grave concern to all of us. We and our allies have begun military action only with the greatest reluctance. But we believe that such action is necessary to respond to Belgrade's brutal persecution of Kosovar Albanians, violations of international law, excessive and indiscriminate use of force, refusal to negotiate to resolve the issue peacefully, and recent military buildup in Kosovo, all of which foreshadow a humanitarian catastrophe of immense proportions.
We have begun today's action to avert this humanitarian catastrophe and to deter further aggression and repression in Kosovo. Serb forces numbering 40,000 are now in action in and around Kosovo. 30,000 Kosovars have fled their homes just since March 19. As a result of Serb action in the last five weeks, there are more than 60,000 new refugees and displaced persons. The total number of displaced persons is approaching a quarter of a million.
The continuing offensive by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is generating refugees and creating pressure on neighboring countries, threatening the stability of the region. Repressive Serb action in Kosovo has already resulted in cross-border activity in Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Recent actions by Belgrade also constitute a threat to the safety of international observers and humanitarian workers in Kosovo.
Security Council resolutions 1199 and 1203 recognized that the situation in Kosovo constitutes a threat to peace and security in the region and invoked Chapter VII of the Charter. In Security Council resolution 1199, the Security Council demanded that Serbian forces take immediate steps to improve the humanitarian situation and avert the impending humanitarian catastrophe.
In regard to the contention that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians, the point is that the Albanians believe it and therefore they can counter Serb claims to Kosovo based on ancient historical presence. Personally, I think basing current policy on who lived where hundreds or thousands of years ago is ridiculous, but in a region where 1389 seems like last year, it still has an impact.
Yes, haha, there will be lot's of ping-pong with Kosovo, but basketball is realy a serbian game, so once we get the chance, we'll slam-dunk it for good. For good.
Well as a life-long Detroit Pistons fan, I just wish your boy Darko would start doing some slam-dunking on the real basketball court and earning those millions we are paying him!
You guys might enjoy reading captain albala's posts.
I think that most important is albanian servility to US strategic interests. Milosevic was too stupid to realise that he has to give something more to US, namely, he refused to accept annex B of Rambuillet "proposal", that would give US army camps, bases, legal imunity, rights on transport and movement all across Serbia... If I'm not wrong, Henry Kissinger in his "Does America Need Foreign Policy?" agrees on this.
But there's something more. If you remember Madeleine Albright's confession that she had to place the bet so high that Serbs couldn't answer it, or that she was infuriated by Albanians refusal to sign, helping Serbs that way, you can conclude that she and her team never wanted peaceful solution. They were only interested in seting such demands that would be unacceptable by Milosevic. And they did that. Albright said that she advised Thachi to sign, because Serbs could never sign it. I saw all that in one US or UK tv series "Fall of MIlosevic" if I remember the title. And they were speaking about it infront of cameras, so it can't be no serbian propaganda or lie.
So, why they wanted war? Milosevic didn't want war. Your claims further in your post about "...Serb oppression of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo prior to the 99 conflict... Milosevic was the one constant in the problems of the former Yugoslavia... if Serb leaders are still denying the crimes and atrocities that precipitated NATO intervention to remove Serb rule. " etc. are in line with mainstream propaganda. But look at this, Milosevic and serbian parliament were asking foreign observers to stay on Kosovo in March, before bombing. My brother was artilery officer there and my friend was serving the army there so I know what were they saying before the bombing - We have to risk our lives and be extremely careful not to harm civilians because we know they (NATO) are just waiting for some mistake and few dead civilians to accuse us for deliberate massacres and stuff. And our army and police acted that way. They had to inform intl monitors about their actions, to invite them to go with them, to supervise etc. That's why it was hard to accuse us before the bombing, and Racak had to be invented. Now we have Helena Rantha speaking about not having enough evidence about Racak, but now it's too late.
Serbian government was sending it's high delegation to speak with any albanian leader from Kosovo in 1996 (when Milosevic was praised in the west for Dayton-Paris agreement) 17 times in a row, and nobody turned up. They didn't want to discuss no issues. Only Rugova was trying something stupid about schools, but it was all nothing and unsincere. Imagine government of one country to send it's high delegation to speak with ethnic minority representatives 17 times, one meeting after another, and nobody from that ethnic minority shows up. What humiliation!
If it was better for US to had all the good guys in the Balkans, why didn't US stick to the international law? You just can't break all the relevant international agreements, also Yugoslavian Constitution and claim that you were interested in peace. For instance, now it's no secret that Zimmerman was the key in Izetbegovic's refusal of Kutillero's peace plan for Bosnia. You can't say it was peace effort! I'm surprised with your readiness to accept the official version of the recent history. I have many things against Milosevic, first one because of his stupidity to believe in legal superstructure (I'm certain he didn't read Schwarzenberger's "Power Politics") as instrument in defending Yugoslavia.
Milosevic and his crew were saying to Slovenia - If you wanna secede, go ahead and do it by Constitution of Yugoslavia. But Slovenes didn't do it. That's why James Baker said Slovenia was guilty far violent destruction of Yugoslavia. And Slovenia didn't do it because of the Germany and Austria, it was obvious. Because that way, Croats would stay alone, without Slovenia to help them. And Croats would have to follow the Constitution. And Milosevic would wait them there. But it all went into war with Slovenian violent and anti-constitutional seccession. Can't you believe all this? What would you say if I tell yuo that it was Croat, Ante Markovic, who gave the orders to JNA to take over border crossings, entering in conflict with Slovenian territorial defense? It wasn't Milosevic.
Why didn't US act against neo-fascist Tudjman? That man was anti-semite, who was working closely with UStashi emigration. He was the one to give warm welcome to ustashi emigrants returning to the crime scene. Why supporting that man? His party members were hailing nazi salutes, for God's sake, in the country where Serbs suffered genocide. Now you say Milosevic provoked war in Croatia? No, he was using it, but my relatives took arms in defense of such neo-nazi regime. I know why were they going out on the roads, pulling woods across, setting baricades. Out of fear spread by HDZ and ustashe, not because they loved Milsoevic. It came later. Serbs there, after forming Krajina, forbid by Constitution of Krajina forming of any communist party.
Croats violated Constitution, and by bringing 1990. croatian constitution, and by anti-constitutional referendum for seccession. That was breaking point.
In Bosnia, Bosnian constitution as well as Yugoslavian were breeched. Serbs were overvoted, inspite of Amendment LXX to Constitution. That was breaking point - October 1991. But it was obvious it's going to be awful even before that.
So, we have Serbs defending their fundamental rights, not crazy Milosevic trying to create Great Serbia. These are the facts I use to calm down and these are the facts I'm waiting for someone to break down, so I could calmly accept Serb guilt for agression, and what did we do else.
Why do yuo bring Macedonians into the game? Yes, macedonians didn't follow the Constitution also when they decided to seccede, but there were no problems with Macedonians - we were not afraid for Serbs that will have to stay in Macedonia. That's why there were no problems with macedonians, although Skopje was Serbian 14th century capital and part of serbian medieval state. But that's history. We were dealing in 1990's with security. And serbs didn't feel secure in Croatia and Bosnia, and they had reasons for that, and they had all the rights to defend their rights.
Am I wrong? Why?
I agree Djindjic was a step forward in foreign affairs, because he was smarth enough to realise he shouldn't rely on international law if he wants to spare his people of another beatings. Kostunica is just an asshole, but still he's considered to be "acceptable nationalist" who throw Milosevic out. That's his best. He has no brains and no guts. I don't know how long will he hold on. Radicals are geting stronger.
Our "culture of denial" is based on our unability to accept our guilt for something we didn't do. We didn't start the war in Kosovo, and we didn't opress the Albanians because of who they were, but because of what they did. How come we didn't opress muslims from Sanjak or Hungarians in Voivodina? Milosevic's right hand men were Michal Kertes aka "Braco" (for "brother") who was hungarian, and Franko Simatovic, head of Unit for SpecOps, who was croat! His close colaborator was Rahman Morina, albanian. After, the head of Millitary Intelligence was Gesa Farkash, Hungarian.
Albanians were seccessionists, armed seccessionists, and what do yuo do in USA with such people? What would you do in our place? No, no albanian home was burned before clashes of police with KLA! Nope. So, we have such state opression in Kosovo that led to 1998 over 40% of Kosovo territory in the hands of rebel seccessionists. C mon. Do you see why I have to be in "state of denial"? I just wonder how is it possible that you don't have a bit of suspicion in the official version. You don't seem to be complete ignorant about our affairs here in the Balkans. I guess you know about BND operations in northern Albania in 1998, perhaps even before. And CIA operations at least from before 1997 Albanian riots inside albania. Yes, conspiracy theory :-) I just wonder what do secret services do :-)
What would I do, if I would be Serbian premier? I would realise I was defeated, my country was defeated, and I would act like that. Forget about all the arguments, forget about the truth, speak what they want to hear, collect strength, reorganise, and - wait!
You're realy... :-))) What sort of autonomy did Albanians want before 1998??? Can you please direct me to that? Milosevic was offering all the time autonomy "according to world standards", but Albanians had in memory all that good times under 1974 constitution and all the liberty they had to opress Kosovo Serbs and put veto's on serbian parliament's decisions. Nice position. I sugest you to read Nyrop's 1982 yugoslavia study. He did it for US Millitary.
Mark - "...there was a school of thought at that time that diplomatic assistance and recognition of the constituent Yugoslav Republics that wanted independence would serve peace and stability. The idea was that those republics would fight for independence if they were not able to gain it peacefully. "
But that's the point! If you stick to international law, and you support federal authorities in Yugoslavia against seccessionist republics, it turns out that those republics are the guilty ones. But if you support seccessionist republics to get out regardless of Constitution and intl law, then anyone who defends the constitution has to be an agressor. Don't you get this? It turns out to be completely arbitrary to the great power's will to decide if one will be agressor or not. And it turned out that Germany (and Vatican, for the sake of honesty) chose Croatia and Slovenia (and Bosnia) to be the good ones, victims. Now, why did they do that???
US had no problem with that, and even helped through Zimmerman to start the Bosnian war. Kosovo was continuation. Milosevic was stupid. Serbs were stupid.
Law is nothing, power is everything. We learn slow. :-)
Do you think that national interests of great powers are limited by international law, contracts, agreements?
The law will apply only among the equal ones, with stronger doing what they want, and weaker suffering what they have - Tukididus (spel?), "Pelophonesian wars"
Conception such as State sovereignity and sovereign equality are merely ideological symptoms of a reality which they symbolise or disguise. Terms of this kind are dangerous. They strengthen the illusion that all that is needed to remedy the situation is to deal radically with the legal superstructure to which they belong. Such self-deception is facilitated by the apparent ease with which, in certain circumstances, even world powers are prepared to agree to departures from these principles. in George Schwarzenberger, Power Politics
Hah, no, I was talking about times when Noriega was "ally", before he got on the "black list". Do you realy believe that US officials didn't know back then, and now, that Albanian criminals run the show in albania and even more if possible in Kosovo? That KLA is largely funded by drug money? As well as some US pro-albanian politicians? They know, but it's not oportune to say it now. I know that you know all this, I just ask myself why you speak like you don't know it. I mean, you have more experience then I do, yuo've seen much of the world, you were in the army, you know what are men capable of. I wonder why you pretend to be so naive when yuo're not.
Mark - "U.S. and NATO Intervention in Kosovo was brought on by fear that the conflict and resultant humanitarian catastrophe would spread and destabilize other areas in the Balkans region..."
yeah, nice job they did preventing the mess. Supporting seccessionist terrorists, against legal government. Why they didn't tell albanians to vote with pro-american opposition against Milosevic? I still didn't hear no plausable answer to this! Was that option worse then war? Milosevic couldn't frame up votes in Kosovo no longer if Albanians were cooperative. But no, Kosovo had to be taken from us. I see it now, clear as never!
Sec Council this and that, it's obvious that attack on Yugoslavia in 1999 was clean act of agression. I study law. I know that if nothing else (thanks professor Paunovic!)
1389 isn't last year, you don't have to be cynical. I was speaking about how deep is Kosovo in Serbian tradition and collective memory. I wanted by that to prove that we'll never forget. Maybe we'll suffer what we have to until our time comes. But listen to this what you've said
"In regard to the contention that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians, the point is that the Albanians believe it and therefore they can counter Serb claims to Kosovo based on ancient historical presence. "
So, Albanian dreams about Ilyrian ancestry, and serbian sacral objects on the ground bear the same weight? Nice. So, I guess ya'll americans should get back to europe, because we serbs know that we're distant cousins of Moheecan tribe! Well we BELIEVE that!
History isn't our argument. It was law. Now we don't have even law. We were stupid and I believe cowards for decades. To win the war and then to try to appease all your neighbors by giving them what they want. republic to them, nationality to them, autonomy (de facto republic) to them, and then you wake up as minority in your own country, as agressor in your own backyard.
Yah, we have deserved this.
Oh, you just give Darko some time, he's young and a bit naive. But he's learning. I've heard Ben Wallace (I guess it was ben Wallace, am I wrong?) was giving him hard time, beating him often so he could gain some strength, learn some dirty tricks... Darko has potential, he'll be very good player. If you know what I mean.
It's like reading the Bible -- people pick only those verses that suit them, and ignore those that don't.
Practice some Laconic brevity. If you intend to address complex issues, make several posts. Use paragraph breaks (some people may gave astigmatism!). And please don't use "my brother said..." or "his friend knew..." that is garbage, hearsay, scuttlebutt, old wives' tales.
Just a friendly reminder.
Funny how UN resolutions have "merit" when they suit us, and no merit when they don't. Ever heard "practice what you preach?" Probably not. Better yet, probbaly chose not to.
Companies such as Rudder Finn, Hill & Knowlton and others are not allowed to accept the foreign clients WITHOUT prior State Department approval. It is not the matter of money.
In a sense, PR companies are civilian sector contractors to Ste Department/Pentagon, only paid by foreign clients to achieve the goals in line with U.S. foreign policy objectives.
The Serbs have lost the media war before it even started. Read Sun Tsu to find out why.
This is another reason we have to defeat Kerry in 2004.
Mark and Captain, thanks for your posts, I learned a lot.
Milosevic was too stupid to realise that he has to give something more to US, namely, he refused to accept annex B of Rambuillet "proposal", that would give US army camps, bases, legal imunity, rights on transport and movement all across Serbia...
Annex B provided NATO (not US) right of access, to include basing, inside Serbia proper. It was not necessary to resolve the Kosovo situation and, of note, the Kosovar Albanian negotiators at Rambouillet could not have cared any less about it. However, it was a show-stopper for the Serbs. It is now thought of as the third of the three significant US diplomatic blunders in regard to Kosovo. The first was in not addressing Kosovo in the Dayton process and thus undermining Rugova's peaceful approach while strengthing the Albanians who said that only violence would work. The second was Ambassador Gelbard's statement in Belgrade in early 1998 in which he described the KLA as terrorists. Milosevic took that as a "green light" to launch the military campaign that ended up slaughtering the civilians in Drenica and thereby galvanizing KLA recruitment and activity throughout Kosovo.
With conspiracy theories in such abundance in the Balkans, it is not a wonder that Annex B is considered by many Serbs as simply a way to make Rambouillet unacceptable and therefore trigger the bombing campaign. Personally, I am not so ready to discount that it was simple incompetence by the Clinton State Department.
My brother was artilery officer there [Kosovo] and my friend was serving the army there so I know what were they saying before the bombing - We have to risk our lives and be extremely careful not to harm civilians
A big part of the Serb regular Army did not participate in the atrocities and war crimes in Kosovo. Some of the Albanian refugees even commented on instances of regular Serbian Army soldiers saving them from being killed or robbed by Serb paramilitaries. The major portion of the "personal" type atrocities; i.e. the killings, robberies, rapes, etc in Kosovo are attributed to the paramilitaries, hastily mobilized reservists, and the special police. It is my opinion that the firepower intensive tactics used by the Serb Army against the KLA were both ineffective and served to rally international support for the Kosovar Albanians as well as further alienate the locals. But that is not a warcrime, just a difference over tactics.
The law will apply only among the equal ones, with stronger doing what they want, and weaker suffering what they have - Tukididus (spel?), "Pelophonesian wars"
The American spelling is Thucydides and I recognize the quote from his "Melian Dialogue". I disagree with your implication that the USA plays the role of Athens and Serbia of Melos, but I certainly respect the intellect of any young man who knows such things and can introduce them in a conversation conducted in a non-native language.
Now for the important stuff--the Pistons absolutely dominated the Pacers last night. Indiana looks tired and demoralized whhile the Pistons looked energized and will play at home tomorrow night. If they win, it will likely be a Lakers-Pistons championship series. You're right, Ben Wallace has been "toughening-up" Darko Milicic in practice; maybe preparing him for the Piston's secret strategy of putting Darko on Shaq in the finals! Or maybe not. Although he doesn't play much, Darko is a crowd favorite in Detroit--the crowd cheers as soon he stands up from the bench to go in a game. As the only seven-foot tall dyed blond hair millionaire Serbian teenager in Detroit, he gets a lot of attention. We're looking forward to some productive court time in another year or two.
Thanks for the ping, the captain is one sharp cookie.
Milo swallowed hook line and sinker Gelbard's statement and miscalculated badly, as expected.
-Wesley Clark finished selection of targets in October 1998, several months before Racak hoax.
-U.S. alphabet agencies have trained Albanian terrorists
-There is an eyewitness account, stated by CATO staff about Mad Cow Albright's statement in Rambouillet, to the effect of the words "Serbs deserve some bombing and bombing they will get".
One of the most shameful episodes of American history was no mistake - facts points toward an elaborate plan.
Ok, I understand you. Kosta50 was right, I do get carried away, so I write essays
:-) I have to control myself better. Question of experience...
I have realy hard exam next Monday, law of contracts. Huh. :-)
Hello getofmylawn, how you doin'?
Back to your few points, Mark. I just hope you'll reconsider the rest of my post, maybe rethink some issues...
If you look better, having NATO free to move all the way around Serbia, like in Bosnia, that would be as almost as an occupation. You're right that "...the Kosovar Albanian negotiators at Rambouillet could not have cared any less about it..." but then again, why something like that had to be demanded from Serbia? Why, if situation on Kosovo was the issue? You can say it was "...the third of the three significant US diplomatic blunders in regard to Kosovo..." if you apriori place Albright and her team as good guys with good intentions, but not so wise though, and Milosevic and his crew as vicious ethnic cleaners eager to find any reason to abandon the peace talks. And get bombed, eventualy, but this isn't some logic, but who cares.
Don't you see how your interpretation of such grave, serious, crucial moment, that ultimatum, is guided by your pre-acceptance of mainstream explanantion of Milosevic's (Serbian) lunatic behavior?
Kosovo was peaceful at the time of Dayton, so I guess Clinton wanted to use Serb defeats in the western fronts to close the Bosnian case as soon as possible. Raising Kosovo question would make that harder. Some people in Serbia say that, in antoher view, by doing that, Clinton sent strong message to Albanians that armed struggle is the only way to get atention. If you ask yourself right after the question about passive albanian support to Milosevic (by not voting against him), it's scary to accept the logic.
Well how would you call armed group performing sudden attacks on postmen, forrest guards, and other people working for local authorities, be them albanians or serbs, roma, gorani? Do yuo know how many albanians were killed by the hand of KLA? Just for being loyal to Serbia? I know, terrorists for me, or freedom fighters for you. Again we come to the point of arbitrary decision. And US chose to consider KLA as terrorists back then. And no, it was not the sign for Milosevic to "...launch the military campaign that ended up slaughtering the civilians in Drenica ..."
You're bringing new moment here - Drenica and Adam Yashari's family. Special forces surrounded his compound, calling them to surrender. After refusal, our soldiers left him two hrs to give chance to civilians, to his own females and children to leave. And he did that. But he didn't allow all civilians to leave. One part left, and they were safe in the hands of our police. But Adem Yashari didn't let go the other, minor part of civilians. It was proven by our forensics that his brothers son was killed from Adem Yashari's gun. It makes no difference, since our troops killed all of them who left there (I don't remember if anyone was captured alive). It was clean, except for Adem Yashari's trick to simulate all civilians leaving. My distant cousin was shot in the compound in his stomack. And the reason for action in Drenica was murdr of two policemen, Sijan and Koncarevic.
Serbia didn't want "accidents", because lessons of frame ups like in Vasa Miskin street or Markale from Sarajevo were learned. Almost. But you can't defend from such things. You get attacked by terrorists, they hide behind civilians, you fight them, and "collateral damage" you make ends up as "deliberate massacres". And deliberate masacres by NATO jets, later on, end up as "collateral damage". I have in my mind massacre of albanians returning to their homes in two occasions during bombing.
Conspiracy theory? :-))) What's conspiracy? Conspiracy is secret agreement against the third party. Do you think it's something strange in today's politics?
Why would Serbs want Rambouillet fail, for God's sake, we all saw what's going on, even people who were eating the tear gas for years in anti-Milosevic demonstrations saw the game set up for us, without much chances to win in it. bah...
Yes, but that's what I'm saying, there was no organised campaign of attrocities against albanians, especialy not before the bombing. Once bombing started, people felt like animals, fighting KLA on the ground, while being bombed from air by KLA allies who also bomb their cities far far behind the front, allover Serbia. So, besides individual crimes, the worst thing soldiers did was to put their own safety infront of the safety of albanian civilians used by KLA as cover up. In all wars, Serbs were standing infront of serb civilians, trying to protect them, while all other parties were safely leaving their civilians in the hands of serb army. Like muslims did in srebrenica, like croats did in central bosnia, like albanians did in kosovo.
Ah, yes, I knew it, because I was reading serbian edition. Thucydides ... Now I know. Thanks. I like the thought. I think he's right. You can see it better when you're small nation. I read Marcus Aurelius "Meditations" in english. Excelent book. Did you read it, maybe? I bought it in American Uni in Bulgaria. 4 levs. Something over two bucks I guess. Some bargain :-)
Yah, sports is always the most important thing. You know, back then in 1997, 1998, when situation was going for worse on Kosovo, people expected sanctions to get tighten more, but they were also scared about possibility of renewing "sport sanctions". :-) Then we won the World basketball championship in Athens :-)
Well, Pistons or Pacers, none of them has any chances against Lakers. I wonder how west became so dominant? remember golden era of dirty dozen, detroits team from end of eighties? joe dumars, bill leimbier (again spell?), isiah thomas... The Chicago. I'm a fan of NY Knicks from 1994 finals with Houston. I'll never forget Starks and his 19-1 field goals, damn! I'm sorry for players like Ewing, Barkley, leaving without the ring.
Hahaha, I just wonder what would Darko do against Shaq :-))) maybe get on his back, but I guess that wouldn't help much either. Hack a Shaq, until he get's pissed and starts missing free throws :-)
I just hope fame won't corrupt him. He's young. Did you know he's a refugee from Croatia? Just like Peja Stojakovic and Vladimir Radmanovic (seattle). People here are angry on Peja, for his awful performance in 7th game against the T'wolves. People say he's a chicken shit, good when it's not important.
But wait for the new drafts. We have several new players that will be so cool! Managers predict young Nemanja Aleksandrov will be first pick! Our junior teams kick ass in international tournaments.
Well, till next time,
I wish you all people health!
The only way the idiots in the West are going to survive is by acting as ONE CHRISTIAN BLOCK AGAINST the Moslem aggression. The Moslems are certainly acting as US against THEM! If we don't drop the fairness crap, and adopt US against THEM we will certainly parish. The Moslem expansionist movement has been in progress for more than 1500 years, and now it is funded with the petrodollars from Saudi Arabia. Stop listening to the lies of our media. It is so simple. If these bastards stop blowing things up all over the world, I may have some respect for them. If minority Moslems militants are doing the blowing ups, and the majority Moslems are ashamed of them, and preach in the mosques against them, then I may have sympathy. But, you, and I know that 95% of all Moslems support that violence, and the violence starts from the hate filled sermons in the Mosques!
Now, given the fact that Milosevic was not a Christian himself and was denounced by the Serbian Orthodox Church for his non-Christian behavior in regard to Kosovo, I'd like to ask you these questions concerning your apparent willingness to support him: What is the point of being Christian if not to behave as one? What is the use of defending Christianity, America and the west if the tactics used in their defense contradict or violate all that for which Christianity, the USA and western culture stands?
And if staying on the moral high ground and adhering to principle doesn't appeal to you, then how about practical effects--do you think allying ourselves with war criminals causes us to gain or lose support from the uncommitted? Do you think it causes our enemies to strengthen or weaken their resolve?
My point is, I don't know if Milosevic is not a good Christian, and I know that he defended his Christian countrymen against the Moslems. I also know that the propaganda campaign to defame him, and the Serbs in general was coming mainly from non-Christian sources. I learned early on whatever these non-Christians support, I will knee jerk reject!!!!!
As you, and I are not privy to the truth because it is always covered up with loads of miss-information, and disinformation, the only thing that we have got going is to deduce from whatever information available the logics, and pray that I am correct. As a matter of fact, today, I have lots of information that supports our invasion of Iraq, and lots of contradicting information that proves that move was not needed, and a big mistake. I have to sift through all that propaganda from both sides, and arrive at my own opinion, and hope that I am correct. I learned many years ago that very sure people are mostly wrong headed.
One thing confuses me is that the fighters in Kosovo were Albanians????
As far as Milosevic was denounced by the Serbian Orthodox Church for his non-Christian behavior in regard to Kosovo, I do agree with the Christian Patriarch for denouncing his wrong doings. As a Christian priest, you supposed to denounce ALL sins; not like the so called "born again" ministers who revel in blood and violence.
Again, I don't know Milosevic but I hate the Albanian Moslems for getting in bed with the Iranians, and bin Laden. Hence, I will support the devil if it is fighting these Islamists. I do not claim to be a sinless Christian; hence I don't practice forgiveness of my enemies as Jesus asked us to do. I however, respect others who do that, and hope to reach that level before I die. Kristos Anasti +++ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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