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We Bombed the Wrong Side in Kosovo
G2mil ^ | Summer 2004 | Carlton Meyer

Posted on 05/29/2004 12:24:36 PM PDT by Destro

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To: mark502inf; DTA

One thing is for sure, one cannot logically argue for Kosovo independence under the KLA remnants and then demand that the Serbs be forced to remain as part of Bosnia.

That is the West's new Balkan paradox.


151 posted on 06/03/2004 12:55:13 PM PDT by FormerLib (It's the 99% of Mohammedans that make the other 1% look bad.)
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To: mark502inf; FormerLib
>>>>Why DTA, are you on some kind of 12-step recovery program? Yesterday, you admitted that innocent Albanians in Kosovo were killed by Serbs and today you confessed that reading American history books is a good idea. I applaud your progress and eagerly await what tomorrow will bring! <<<<<

Please do not misconstrue what I have said. I have said that some albanian dead were innocent Albanian civilians killed by Serbs. Some. But the majority were neither civilians, nor innocent no killed by Serbs. It has a different meaning than your propagandistic drivel "you admitted that innocent Albanians in Kosovo were killed by Serbs". I never said that, becausde it is simply not true.

I have never said that "reading American history books is a good idea."

I said "Good place to start are American books printed before 1989."

And there is a solid reason for that.

Since 1883, from the start of diplomatic relations between Serbia and USA, Serbia was considered an ally. American books written before, during and after WWII provide fairly accurate view of the Balkan politics. SOme important events are ommited, some exagerated, but there were no outright lies. Military books are especially good.

It all changed with the fall of Berlin Wall in 1989. Overnight, Serbs became designated enemy for U.S. and the books printed after 1989 are in most cases heavily biased or outright fraudulent.

But brings Pulitzer and sells well.

Your construct of Serbian Waffen SS was debunked. Then you pull the reserve chute and attempt to get away with misconstruing what I have said on other thread.

But guess what,"If my reserve don't blossom round, I'll be the first one on the ground"

That's the only progress I see in your case. You will bury yourself deep into the ground with each untruth you post.

152 posted on 06/03/2004 1:01:20 PM PDT by DTA (you ain't seen nothing yet)
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To: mark502inf
The conflict in Kosovo is based on the political goal of the Albanians to gain self-rule; in the form of independence, incorporation into some type of regional Albanian entity, or substantial autonomy.

They had self-rule in Albania, but for some reason they preferred to immigrate to Serbia/Kosovo.

153 posted on 06/03/2004 4:10:31 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: mark502inf
Walker's professional judgment

"Professional judgment"?! You mean the judgement acquired by being around death squads in Central America?

154 posted on 06/03/2004 4:12:40 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: FormerLib
Mark, it was the Serbs revolt against collaboration that got Belgrade bombed on Orthodox Easter in 1941.

Something that would be repeated by the American criminal Clinton almost a half-century later.

Americans and British carpet bombed Belgrade on Easter 1944. Bombing Christian Allies on Easter Sunday . I guess it becomes a tradition.

155 posted on 06/03/2004 4:16:36 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: mark502inf; DTA; Gael; joan
Mark, nice (but lame) attempt at painting the Serbs as pro-Nazi during 1941-45. Sure, there was a tiny percentage of the Serb population which collaborated...nothing new there geez even among the English there were Pro-Nazi loonies; ie Oswald Mosely

What you fail to note is the 20,000 Bosnian Muslims who fought gleefully in the SS. As a percentage of able bodies Muslims at the time, it is a huge percent. Roughly, Bosnian Muslims served as a higher percentage in the SS than did Americans in all branches of service during WWII.

In Kosovo and Metohija one found a similar story, in certain extremist areas, the Albanian population were zealous pro-Nazi's

In Croatia & Dalmatia, great masses of troops were sent all over Europe helping the master race

But the highest percentage of population devoted to Gross Deutschland was of course in Solvenia whose inhabitants became German citizens.

This stands in great contrast to the participation of Serbs who were murdered by the hundreds of thousands

Your characterisation is a insult to those millions of innocent who perished in the Holocaust

156 posted on 06/03/2004 4:53:15 PM PDT by vooch
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To: Destro

Only half the people, the stupid half.


157 posted on 06/03/2004 4:56:54 PM PDT by mindspy
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To: vooch; mark502inf; Wraith; joan; wonders; getoffmylawn
Vooch sorry I have been away oppressing the Islamic fundamentalist. My apologies to Mark502...whatever for having oppressed the KLA allies of those trying to further harm the Western world. Mark hope you don't live in the big apple and start spewing off what good guys the KLA are? Have it from a pretty good source that they the KLA were really happy to get weapons training back in 1998 by Osama's boys, who happened to be visiting Kosovo from camp Afghanistan. Albanians like the the good old buck but never the less the Muslim thing goes a long way back to the 11th century when they tried to overrun at the Christian world which seem to be an never ending priority.

Now Mark listen up and learn. Racak and surrounding area consisted of strong supporters of the LDK party. Rugova was the head of the LDK and the voted in President of KOSOVO at the time. The KLA considered Rugova a traitor because of attending the big peace conference in France and trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement i.e. avoid bloodshed. Thaci, the criminal terrorist who supported shooting policeman in the back, declared Rugova and his LDK party traitors which means that if you support Rugova you have just been demoted to a waste of skin as far as the KLA were concerned. Getting the picture yet? Of course your average LDK member or official would ponder why this Neanderthal KLA soldier was pointing an AK47 at his brain while being systematically beaten to death all because this individual believed in a more civilized way of doing things like for example believing in the practice of democracy. Thaci and his goons only understand killing. I know this because I interviewed several LDK officials who were left for dead and managed to survive the KLA love for fellow man.

Now take a deep breath and imagine if you have a village called Racak that supports Rugova (70% of the Albanians supported him by the way) what are these people to the KLA? Well my boy just some cannon fodder waiting to happen which it did. The KLA used these people who did not support Thaci politically and guess what martyred them for the cause. In this case the KLA forced them to stand and fight with KLA guns at their backs. Where were all the other villagers if RACAK was taken by surprise. A T-55 makes a lot of noise and all the Albanians knew the VJ were coming. Why no old ladies, kids etc. Simply because the KLA said they were going to take a stand and the Racak villagers were going to help if they liked it or not, except they would be doing most of the dying i.e. 45 villagers and 11 KLA dead. Makes you wonder who was in charge of the operation don't it? So the 11 KLA terrorists are taken away when the KLA take over Racak as a result of the VJ leaving. Only the dead villager are left. Next you have Wild Willy Walker walking alllllll over the crime scene blah blah balh and poof the KLA have NATO coming across the boarder. The recent set up by the KLA which resulted in the further killing of the Serbs civilians in Kosovo is the best example that supports what KLA are all about.

The KLA staged some problems in Mitrovica causing the balk of the NATO troops to deploy there while the KLA and friend killed the Serbs in other parts of Kosovo. Mark tell me how many of the Serbs are left in Pristina right now? None because your friends the Albanians killed them all. Does it give you that warm and fuzzy feeling inside knowing your KLA buddies have once again got their way through deception in order to continue the genocide of the remaining Serbs in Kosovo. They are nothing but cold blooded killers, to the Serbs and to their own. I know because I worked on the KLA in the British Sector Pristina back in 1999 and nothing you say will convince me that the Serbs are the problem. There were some atrocities but nothing compared to what the KLA have done. Remi and Latif Gashi who I have dealt with are prime examples of serial killers/terrorists who systematically hunted down so called collaborators and made them disappear. Sabit Geci was Gashi right hand man who is responsible for the deaths of 40 individuals by his own hand. When NATO can not commit to Kosovo because of other priorities the Serbs will have but no choice but to enter Kosovo and deal with the KLA and very effectively. One day the KLA will take a side and guess what they won’t be choosing ours and because? The Serbs have known what has been coming for a long time. Racak happened for a reason and the KLA made it happen just like what happened to the remaining unarmed Serbs in Pristina. I’m sure you can live with that.

158 posted on 06/03/2004 6:18:18 PM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: vooch; mark502inf; Wraith; joan; wonders; getoffmylawn
Vooch sorry I have been away oppressing the Islamic fundamentalist. My apologies to Mark502...whatever for having oppressed the KLA allies of those trying to further harm the Western world. Mark hope you don't live in the big apple and start spewing off what good guys the KLA are? Have it from a pretty good source that they the KLA were really happy to get weapons training back in 1998 by Osama's boys, who happened to be visiting Kosovo from camp Afghanistan. Albanians like the the good old buck but never the less the Muslim thing goes a long way back to the 11th century when they tried to overrun at the Christian world which seem to be an never ending priority.

Now Mark listen up and learn. Racak and surrounding area consisted of strong supporters of the LDK party. Rugova was the head of the LDK and the voted in President of KOSOVO at the time. The KLA considered Rugova a traitor because of attending the big peace conference in France and trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement i.e. avoid bloodshed. Thaci, the criminal terrorist who supported shooting policeman in the back, declared Rugova and his LDK party traitors which means that if you support Rugova you have just been demoted to a waste of skin as far as the KLA were concerned. Getting the picture yet? Of course your average LDK member or official would ponder why this Neanderthal KLA soldier was pointing an AK47 at his brain while being systematically beaten to death all because this individual believed in a more civilized way of doing things like for example believing in the practice of democracy. Thaci and his goons only understand killing. I know this because I interviewed several LDK officials who were left for dead and managed to survive the KLA love for fellow man.

Now take a deep breath and imagine if you have a village called Racak that supports Rugova (70% of the Albanians supported him by the way) what are these people to the KLA? Well my boy just some cannon fodder waiting to happen which it did. The KLA used these people who did not support Thaci politically and guess what martyred them for the cause. In this case the KLA forced them to stand and fight with KLA guns at their backs. Where were all the other villagers if RACAK was taken by surprise. A T-55 makes a lot of noise and all the Albanians knew the VJ were coming. Why no old ladies, kids etc. Simply because the KLA said they were going to take a stand and the Racak villagers were going to help if they liked it or not, except they would be doing most of the dying i.e. 45 villagers and 11 KLA dead. Makes you wonder who was in charge of the operation don't it? So the 11 KLA terrorists are taken away when the KLA take over Racak as a result of the VJ leaving. Only the dead villager are left. Next you have Wild Willy Walker walking alllllll over the crime scene blah blah balh and poof the KLA have NATO coming across the boarder. The recent set up by the KLA which resulted in the further killing of the Serbs civilians in Kosovo is the best example that supports what KLA are all about.

The KLA staged some problems in Mitrovica causing the balk of the NATO troops to deploy there while the KLA and friend killed the Serbs in other parts of Kosovo. Mark tell me how many of the Serbs are left in Pristina right now? None because your friends the Albanians killed them all. Does it give you that warm and fuzzy feeling inside knowing your KLA buddies have once again got their way through deception in order to continue the genocide of the remaining Serbs in Kosovo. They are nothing but cold blooded killers, to the Serbs and to their own. I know because I worked on the KLA in the British Sector Pristina back in 1999 and nothing you say will convince me that the Serbs are the problem. There were some atrocities but nothing compared to what the KLA have done. Remi and Latif Gashi who I have dealt with are prime examples of serial killers/terrorists who systematically hunted down so called collaborators and made them disappear. Sabit Geci was Gashi right hand man who is responsible for the deaths of 40 individuals by his own hand. When NATO can not commit to Kosovo because of other priorities the Serbs will have but no choice but to enter Kosovo and deal with the KLA and very effectively. One day the KLA will take a side and guess what they won’t be choosing ours and because? The Serbs have known what has been coming for a long time. Racak happened for a reason and the KLA made it happen just like what happened to the remaining unarmed Serbs in Pristina. I’m sure you can live with that.

159 posted on 06/03/2004 6:19:33 PM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: vooch; DTA
Well, well. I sure must have said some nasty things about the Serbs in my two posts about WWII. DTA responded: "With your smearing of Serbs at all cost, .." and vooch chimed in with "[you are]painting the Serbs as pro-Nazi during 1941-45" plus "Your characterisation is a insult to those millions of innocent who perished in the Holocaust".

Here's a cut and paste of exactly what I said about WWII:

Albania, along with Greece and Serbia, were conquered and occupied by the Axis in WWII. Those were the three countries in the Balkans that were the home of extensive resistance movements. Albania, although a much smaller county and on a much smaller scale, mirrored closely the resistance movement in Yugoslavia. They had anti-Axis nationalists, anti-Axis Royalists, and of course the communist Partisans under Tito-ally and future dictator Hoxha. Similar to the Chetnik-Partisan fights in Serbia, the Albanians did not just fight the Italians and Germans, but often each other.

Just like Serbia with Nedic, the Albanians had a puppet government although they did not have a home-grown fascist movement such as the Serbian "Zbor".

And then I said: Now, DTA, what about these guys: Serbisches Freiwilligen Korps der SS

You can read a little bit more about Serb collaborationist and SS forces here.

DTA: "Nazis took control of SFK when SFK LOST war in Serbia and fled from Partisans and Red Army.

Me: Well done, DTA, you got that exactly right. As the Serbian Volunteer Corps, they were under the control of the Nedic collaborationist government from 1941-1944 and were well known for their hard fighting against the Partisan resistance organizations. Since they were Nazi collaborators it was natural they would flee when the Red Army arrived. So they did so and then continued to fight for the Nazi cause under the direct control of the SS.

OK, Vooch & DTA--you did some name-calling. Now back it up. Use my exact words. Support your positions.

And this is still true.

160 posted on 06/03/2004 6:47:38 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: A. Pole
being around death squads in Central America?

Americans and British carpet bombed Belgrade on Easter 1944. Bombing Christian Allies on Easter Sunday . I guess it becomes a tradition.

Wow--"Death Squads" & we "carpet bombed" Belgrade. You channeling Cynthia McKinney by any chance? Tell me A. Pole, just so I can confirm where you are coming from--who were the good guys in Nicaragua--the Contras or the Sandinistas? And which of those two groups killed the most civilians? How about in El Salvador--was it the government or the FMLN? And your bonus question, exactly what was it that the allied bombers did that made the attack on Belgrade any different than the hundreds of other attacks they made on German positions or critical facilities in towns in the allied countries of Holland or France or (later) Italy, etc?

161 posted on 06/03/2004 7:02:03 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
Tell me A. Pole, just so I can confirm where you are coming from--who were the good guys in Nicaragua--the Contras or the Sandinistas? And which of those two groups killed the most civilians?

I don't know which group killed more civilians. But it is Red Herring anyway. William Walker was around death squads which were in other Central American countries.

162 posted on 06/03/2004 7:59:03 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: mark502inf
mark,

like all liberals, when you are called to task for your position you start quibling

it all depends on what the meaning of is; is

163 posted on 06/04/2004 2:58:04 AM PDT by vooch
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To: FormerLib
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1147053/posts

Mark should check out this link for illuminating just who Clinton supported.

164 posted on 06/04/2004 3:01:12 AM PDT by vooch
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To: mark502inf; vooch
>>>>>Well, well. I sure must have said some nasty things about the Serbs in my two posts about WWII. DTA responded: "With your smearing of Serbs at all cost, .." and vooch chimed in with "[you are]painting the Serbs as pro-Nazi during 1941-45" plus "Your characterisation is a insult to those millions of innocent who perished in the Holocaust".

Orwel words "Who controls the present, controls the past Who controls the past, controls the future" are applicable here. Since the fall of Berlin wall, there is a consistent, concerted activity to depict Serbs as Nazis and real Nazis as Serb victims.

Mindboggling. For example, USIP-sponsored Sonja Biserko claims that Serbia was fascist state during WWII responsible for The Holocaust. In reality Serbia was occupied country, under direct German Nazi military control and Serbs were holocaust victims. Such drivel would be insignifficant if not done under USIP supervision and Sonja Biserko being commissioned by USIP to write a study about alleged Serbian "nationalism" (in negative conotation). Who cares that this lie is an act of Nazi revisionism, financed by U.S. taxpayers dollars will enter into U.S. documents, allegedly as the analysis of an independent think tank.

Your attempt to depict Serbs as Nazis goes along the same line (you wrote: "You can read a little bit more about Serb ... SS forces here"

If you are indeed interested in Serbian Volunteer Corps and relationship with Wehrmacht and Waffen SS I would recommend Neubacher's “Sonderauftrag Sudost 1940-1945”,

SFK was similar to 15th Cossack Cavalry Corps - they never wore Nazi insignia nor Waffen SS uniform.

They fought along Nazis but were not Nazis themselves. They were anticommunists. But who cares about the facts, as long as you smear Serbs.

165 posted on 06/04/2004 9:01:01 AM PDT by DTA (you ain't seen nothing yet)
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To: Wraith
Now Mark listen up and learn

Easy, Wraith. If I wanted to be talked to like that, I'd call my wife!

The KLA used these people who did not support Thaci politically and guess what martyred them for the cause. In this case the KLA forced them to stand and fight with KLA guns at their backs... the KLA said they were going to take a stand and the Racak villagers were going to help if they liked it or not, except they would be doing most of the dying

OK Wraith, after eliminating the fluff and "my boy" and Serbs cleansed from Pristina moral equivalency arguments and how you talked to some guy from somewhere else who was not a nice person; what you are left with on the subject of Racak is yet one more unbelievable story trying to deny obvious Serbian war-crimes. The common element in each of those versions is that there is not a shred of hard evidence to support any of them. And yours is no different.

Lets do it again; just sticking to the Albanian bodies in the gully and not all the ones in the village itself nor the KLA soldiers killed on the other side of the village, here's what the evidence has established: eyewitnesses saw the men taken away by Serb forces out of Racak and toward the location where the bodies were found. Later, firing was heard from that area. Four Albanian men who were in the group taken into the gully described how they ran into the woods and escaped as Serbs gunned down the other Albanians. The bodies were found in the gully. They were the same Albanian villagers taken away by the Serbs. The forensic team says they were shot where they were found in the clothes they were found in and that there was no indication that they were "anything but unarmed villagers".

Wraith, you have nothing substantive-no evidence, no forensics, no witnesses-- to prop-up your story. And it contradicts the Serb government version that says the dead were all KLA terrorists. I seem to recall you claimed you were an intell type-what Army? No S-2 or G-2 I've ever seen could have survived throwing something like that little fantasy in front of the commander.

Oh, and for some of the peripheral stuff in your post-like your little lecture about the KLA setting up Racak because Racak citizens backed Rugova and KLA leader Thaci was upset because Rugova had gone to the peace conference in France. Whoops. The peace conference in France started in February. The Racak murders were on January 15th.

Racak was a Serb war-crime. Face up to it and move on, soldier. But before you do, fix your tag-line. That quote is from Frederick the Great, not Napoleon.

166 posted on 06/04/2004 5:30:19 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: vooch; DTA
OK, Vooch & DTA--you did some name-calling. Now back it up. Use my exact words. Support your positions.

The challenge remains unmet. Or to be precise, it was met with more of the same--name-calling and a total inability to back up your position.

C'mon, fellas! Grow a little--show some integrity--it's never too late!

167 posted on 06/04/2004 5:32:12 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
This thread is all so deja vu that it's scary.

The only question remaining is how long it is until you accept some of these individuals simply aren't worth the time.

It is what it is.

168 posted on 06/04/2004 7:20:57 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite

Hello Hoplite, good to see you.


169 posted on 06/04/2004 7:59:48 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf; vooch
Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake. Napoleon
170 posted on 06/04/2004 8:53:33 PM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: mark502inf; vooch

Mark whatever saying hello to himself?


171 posted on 06/04/2004 8:54:22 PM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: Wraith

Was Racak a anti-KLA village ?


172 posted on 06/05/2004 3:45:53 AM PDT by vooch
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To: mark502inf; Wraith; wonders; joan
Remi and Latif Gashi who I have dealt with are prime examples of serial killers/terrorists who systematically hunted down so called collaborators and made them disappear. Sabit Geci was Gashi right hand man who is responsible for the deaths of 40 individuals by his own hand.

Mark the Clinton version of Racak is based on eyewitnesses whose story is contradicted by ABC film.

Wraith's version of events is most plausible and fits precisely with the known facts and theM.O. of paramilitary guerillas.

Kfor concluded that the miost active KLA units (Ramush & Remi's) engaged in a systemic campaign of murdering Albanians. Why can't you ?

173 posted on 06/05/2004 3:55:16 AM PDT by vooch
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To: mark502inf; Wraith; wonders; DTA; getoffmylawn
KLA helped by Walker et. al.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38caffab1945.htm

KLA Lied says Danny Pearl in WSJ 1999
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a386c976f6ffa.htm

KLA Prevent Reconstruction of Racak Event
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/646128/posts

Kosovo OSCE observers admit to distorting their 'neutral' reports to favour KLA
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/650948/posts

Kosovo- Complete Analysis of the Incident at Racak
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/686417/posts

Kosovo- KLA Commander testifys he brought 47 KLA to fight at Racak
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/695375/posts

>

174 posted on 06/05/2004 4:04:25 AM PDT by vooch
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To: vooch

All US troops need to be out of Kosovo region. When the US leaves the Euro trash troops will leave too.

Let the Serbs handle this


175 posted on 06/05/2004 4:07:26 AM PDT by dennisw ("Allah FUBAR!")
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To: vooch

They were all Albanians separated by a political direction. The KLA considered the LDK a big road block on the road to power because of their popularity. Thaci had to destroy the LDK anyway he could. Racak was simply a village of strong LDK supporters who became useful to the KLA by becoming dead for the cause. The KLA kill their own. Is Racak an anti KLA village and the answer is simply yes. To day no one there dares to challenge the KLA because they now own the place and one does they are killed.


176 posted on 06/05/2004 5:07:56 AM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: Wraith

thanks for setting Mark straight on this


177 posted on 06/05/2004 12:46:05 PM PDT by vooch
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To: vooch
Wonders, you may wish to illuminate to Mark502 how guerillas/paramilitaries such as the KLA would use loyalist villages such as Racak as locations of firefights in order to force the population into extremism

Thanks for the ping, vooch. I don't know if it can be explained to someone who wasn't there. Or at least someplace (like Southeast Asia) where this sort of thing went on. And maybe you have to have been there to understand that there is no such thing as an "unarmed villager" in the Balkans. Or maybe I'm old and tired. People will believe what they want to believe, regardless of evidence or lack thereof.

Racak again. You all know my thoughts on that. It's a case of "lack thereof" and "what's wrong with this picture?". If you want, I could go back and look at some very old threads where we pulled together what we could find of forensic evidence on the net and analysed it.

I confess I haven't read through this thread yet. Maybe I'll be able to contribute something once I've had time to read it all.

178 posted on 06/08/2004 3:40:12 AM PDT by wonders (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: thoughtomator
"liberals"

That's why I just call them leftists. The only reason to call them "liberals", is to annoy the ones who run from the term. ;-)

179 posted on 06/08/2004 4:10:04 AM PDT by StriperSniper (Leftism is a disease that others have that makes you feel bad.)
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To: Destro
(Muslims) Burning of the Serbian village Svinjare, Kosovo March 17, 2004 - pictures
180 posted on 06/08/2004 4:19:46 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: wonders; *balkans
thanks Sarg :)

You are correct, Vietnam Vets on this forum recognize the Racak incident for its parallels with VC strategy against neutralist/ARVN villages, others don't have a clue how ruthless guerilla paramilitaries can be.

181 posted on 06/08/2004 6:27:05 AM PDT by vooch
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To: Rome2000; joan; *balkans; DTA; wonders; Wraith; Hoplite

anyone else have insight into the guerilla practice of staging firefights from neutralist villages in order to radicalize the population ?


182 posted on 06/13/2004 4:42:36 AM PDT by ehoxha
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