Posted on 05/29/2004 1:32:24 PM PDT by Veritas_est
Moslem cleric in England says killing non-Moslems is OK By: John Russell | Source: IRN NEWS May 27, 2004 5:29PM EST
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A leading Muslim teacher in the United Kingdom is telling his followers that the killing of non-Moslems is in accordance with Islamic teachings. Shiek Abu Hamsa of the notorious Finsbury Park Mosque in London has been videotaped telling his congregation that, “If a Kafir (that is a non-Moslem)is walking by you and you catch him he’s booty (that is a slave), you can sell him in the market. Most of them are spies. And even if they don’t do anything, if Moslems can not take them and sell them in the market, you just kill them, its OK.” Hamsa went on to say that that Americans are especially worthy of death.
This is just a blurb. I don't have access to the full article. Maybe one of does, and can post the entire article here. I'd like to read it. However, I figure this is enough said on the subject anyway.
Point Made!
Didn't Mr. Bush tell America that Islam is a "religion of peace"? (not that America believed him for a minute)
I'm sure bin Laden says the same. They're terrorists.
I think the point is, this guy was arrested.
'Cuz everyone KNOWS that it's a very, very peaceful religion, and would never, ever condone one of its bigwigs saying such things
Why, the outcry of disgust and indignation would be positively deafening!!
So we all KNOW this just can't possibly be true...
He's a terrorist.
Note, he's just another "A leading Muslim teacher." Nothing more, nothing less, nothing extraordinary. I can't WAIT for the West to go medieval on these SOBs.
All they need to do is vote in Europe. They get enough people to emigrate to a European country (France, England) and vote out non-Muslims. They don't need war.
Believe me, I live in California and it is happening here in a different, but similar, way.
It's already begun. It's called the War on Terrorism.
Europe,Asia,U.S.,etc all need to fight against terrorists and the expansion of terrorism, just as we've had to fight against the spread of communism.
Only OK? I thought it was mandatory.
Some truths are immutable. Islam is a religion of peace, just as the Democrat Party is the party of patriotism, fiscal responsibility, and tolerance.
I think that non-Musilms can now take the other side of the issue and say, "It is all right for non-Muslims to kill Muslim clerics who tell Muslims it is okay to kill non-Muslims."
Actually, in his last speech, he made a significant shift on that issue that was buried in the canned canning by the media.
Abu Hamster is now rotting in jail.
BIGTIME!
They say you can see the minarets rising in European capitals as more mosques are built.
Europeans don't assimilate their immigrant communities like the U.S., they keep them in "refugee camps" JUST LIKE THE ARABS HAVE KEPT THE PALESTINIANS FOR OVER 50 YEARS!
That might be true, but I've heard he's keeping any eye out for us.
veritas semper veritas non est. (e pluribus ego)
I am so confused about the religion of Islam I think nothing more than the rebirth of Mohammed (followed by the prophet meeting with me)could ever allow me to fully understand. Ms. Ebadi who won the nobel peice prize last year conveyed the idea that Islam and democracy could be united. I don't believe this in the slightest. However, I wonder how she, and others, can make such a claim. Is it based on something at all? Or is it merely whimsical, wishful thinking? I certainly expect more from the nobel peace prize winner.
No, it isn't a tool to spread Islam. What these radical fundamentalists /islamofascists/or terrorists are spreading is a bastardization of Islam.
The President has said on several ocassions, what the terrorists are spreading and what we are fighting is " a totalitarian, political ideolgy."
According to the koran I own (printed before 1960 and political correctness) he is absolutely correct.
With all this spew from the islamic pigs who fancy themselves clerics, when does it become open season on these swine to send them to their 72 ugly virgins?
Sez you. What gives you any more credibility on what is or isn't "true" Islam than Shiek Abu Hamsa?
Personally, I am done with this foolishness. It is not the job of the American people or its policy makers to become bogged down in the Battle of the Expert Witnesses over the question of what is or is not "true Islam," and whether or not Muslim Terror is one of its core principles or merely an aberration.
We can study the Koran for 10,000 hours, and still not come away with a conclusion on either side of the question that would not be challenged by credentialed Imams and Muslim scholars.
All we really need to know is that with few, if any, exceptions, Muslim nations have failed in their moral responsibility to contain and control Muslim terror, both within their own geographical confines and abroad. This failure now threatens the lives and interests of Americans on our own soil and around the world.
Whether this failure is the result of Islam's deliberate support for terrorism, or the inability of so-called "moderate" Muslims to muster the will to fight it is immaterial to me at this point.
Therefore, because we have the natural human right to defend our lives and our nation, we have the natural right to do the job of cleaning up Islam's mess in whatever manner will get the job done.
Whatever collateral damage results from our actions to defend our nation is the moral responsibility of the Muslim world for failing to do its humanitarian duty.
The only question we need to consider in making US policy is what will work on a practical level to protect our safety and security.
In my view, by exporting and failing to control Muslim terror, most Muslim nations have lost their right to national sovereignty in the same way that criminals in our own society lose their right to walk freely on our streets.
The Muslim world has had enough opportunity to clean up its own mess over the past 800 years. So now we will have to do it for them. It won't be pretty. But there is no question that we have to do it or die.
So I will not be listening to any more discussions of whether there are or aren't moderate Muslims at this point. If there are any, they certainly haven't proven themselves very useful in combatting the terror which threaten to make the world lousy for the next 100 years.
If this guy feels this way the logical extension is If its ok for them to Kill us , Its ok For us to kill them.
turnabout case law and all................
Wow! nicely said Maceman!!! I will be plagiarizing your statement in the many posts I make on my local leftie message board if you don't mind. that was one jewel of a post, keep it up. :)
If the Muslims really want to show us they are peaceful and against the "radicals" then Isuggest that those who are fluent in the Arabic languages sign up immediately to be translators for the armed services and the NSA...then maybe I will believe them ( if their translations are accurate and not doctored like so many of those before have been)
But it would certainly appear that the R.O.P. isn't suffering from any shortage of his ilk.
Scratch a muzzie - sniff a terrorist (if not right now, then later).
OH NO!
I've been found out.
And you are absolutely right. Sheik Hamsa knows his Koran.
Millions of voices raised in howling protests of righteous indignation
Either that, or it's those damned crickets again...
Feel free to stop listening....
The reality is, the U.S. doesn't fight like that. We identify the enemy, and then try our best to limit casualties to that enemy. We can't declare war on 1.2 billion people, the vast majority of whom just want to live and provide for their families.
"I think you're just trying to start some trouble around here."
OH NO!!!
I've been found out.
Perhaps we should deal with them with lex talonis.
Unification through extermination
Oh, bullsh!t. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokyo . . . Ring a bell to you? Or are you two years old?
they don't have any guns cause they gave them all to the goobermint. so, how are they going to have a war??
The reality is, things have changed. Or haven't you noticed?
I am not saying that we should declare war on 1.2 billion people. What I am saying is that if a lot of them end up as collateral damage in our just war against Holy Jihad in Muslim territory, then the moral responsibility for those deaths lies not with us, but with the Muslim people who have not been able or willing to contain this deadly plague on their own.
What I am saying is that discussions about whether Islam is or is not a releigion of peace are as pointless as discussions over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
What I am saying is that while we must recognize that our power is not ulimited and that there are be practical political and military reasons why we cannot invade and occupy every Muslim country, to the extent that we find it effective to do so, we have that moral right.
Also, please don't tell me there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. I'm sure there would be many fewer if allegiance to Allah and Mohammed were not enforced under the threat of death in the most disgusting ways imaginable, as it is in almost all Muslim nations.
Well, if we are ALL slaves wouldn't our existence be peaceful and contented?
Just think about our returning to a life of contentment as the Muslim faith professes,
No more traffic accidents, medical malpractice, house calls for heating and air conditioning concerns, waiting in line for hours to take a flight, global warming would no longer be a political concern, for politics wouldn't exist, plumbers would be out of work, and (gasp) Hollywood would not be there for us to be led to frustration as to what channel to watch!
Most of all, Enron, the price of fuel, destroying the economy, and global warming would never, ever cross anyones mind as being a concern in the forefront.
Basic survival and a belief in Ala to keep one content in life is sufficient isn't it?
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Who is more informed and better able to define Islam? |
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"Islam means submission, obedience and unqualified surrender." |
"Islam is peace". |
| Muslim theologian Abdul Ala Maududi November 1935. Tarjuman-ul-Quran, reprinted in West vs. Islam. |
President George Bush September 17, 2001. Speaking at the Islamic Center of Washington, D.C. |
My father, who helped in a small way to kill thousands, was not a violent man. Curtis LeMay, who led him into battle, surely was. The former, two years off a small farm in the central San Joaquin Valley, left a quiet college campus in California in early 1943, and at twenty-one joined the American armed forces. For much of the Great Depression, a decade prior, millions in the Imperial Japanese Army had been plundering China and Southeast Asia, and they were now engaged in a murderous fight to the death against an assorted host of enemies. In contrast, William Hanson had fired a small rifle only at birds and rabbits, in the countryside five miles outside the backwater farming town of Kingsburg, California. In his two decades he had never ventured more than a few miles from his parents' farmhouse. He had never been in an airplane, and had never seen a bomb. When he enlisted in the United States Army, his future plane, the B-29, did not even exist as a combat-tested bomber.When William Hanson joined the American army, imperial Japan was still largely unscathed. The closest American land forces to Japan were over 2,000 miles away. Only a few planners like Curtis LeMay knew that thousands of enlisted civilians like my father in a few months of training could kill both brutally and efficiently, if given the proper equipment and leadership - and backed by the vast industrial capacity of the American nation. My grandfather, a farmer who twenty-seven years earlier had left the same forty acres, also served in a democratic army. Frank Hanson ended up as a corporal in the 91st Infantry Division and was gassed in the Argonne. He told my father that he should quickly get used to killing - and that he probably would either not come back, or would return crippled. Americans, my grandfather added, had to learn to fight fast.
A little more than a year after his enlistment, on March 9, 1945, a 400-mile-long trail of 334 B-29s left their Marianas bases, 3,500 newly trained airmen crammed in among the napalm. The gigantic planes each carried ten tons of the newly invented jellied gasoline incendiaries. Preliminary pathfinders had seeded flares over Tokyo in the shape of an enormous fiery X to mark the locus of the target. Planes flew over in small groups of three, a minute apart. Most were flying not much over 5,000 feet above Japan. Five-hundred-pound incendiary clusters fell every 50 feet. Within thirty minutes, a 28-mile-per-hour ground wind sent the flames roaring out of control. Temperatures approached 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit. The Americans flew in without guns, and LeMay was not interested in shooting down enemy airplanes/ He instead filled the planes with napalm well over their theoretical maximum loads. He wished to destroy completely the material and psychological capital of the Japanese people, on the brutal theory that once civilians had tasted what their soldiers had done to others, only then might their murderous armies crack. Advocacy for a savage militarism from the rear, he though, might dissipate when one's house was in flames. People would not show up to work to fabricate artillery shells that killed Americans when there was no work to show up to. Soldiers who kill, rape, and torture do so less confidently when their own families are at risk at home.
The planes returned with their undercarriages seared and the smell of human flesh among the crews. Over 80,000 Japanese died outright; 40,918 were injured; 267,171 buildings were destroyed. One million Japanese were homeless. Air currents from the intense heat sent B-29s spiraling thousands of feet upward. Gunners like my father could see the glow of the inferno from as far away as 150 miles as they headed home. The fire lasted four days. My father said he could smell burned flesh for miles on the way back to Tinian. Yet only 42 bombers were damaged, and 14 shot down. No single air attack in the history of conflict had been so devastating.
Unfortunately for the Japanese, the March 9 raid was the beginning, not the end, of LeMay's incendiary campaign. He sensed that his moment - a truly deadly man in charge of a huge democratic force free of government constraint - had at last arrived, as the imperial Japanese command was stunned and helpless. All the old problems - the weather, the enemy fighters, the jet stream, the high-altitude wear on the engines, political limitations on bombing civilians - were now irrelevant. There was to be no public objection to LeMay's burning down the industrial and residential center of the Japanese empire - too many stories about Japanese atrocities toward subjugated peoples and prisoners of war had filtered back to the American people. To a democratic nation in arms, an enemy's unwarranted aggression and murder are everything, the abject savagery of its own retaliatory response apparently nothing.
Suddenly, all of Japan lay defenseless before LeMay's new and unforeseen plan of low-level napalm attack. To paraphrase General Sherman, he had pierced the shell of the Japanese empire and had found it hollow. LeMay had thousands of recruits, deadly new planes, and a blank check to do whatever his bombers could accomplish. Over 10,000 young Americans were now eager to work to exhaustion to inflict even more destruction. Quickly, he upped the frequency of missions, sending his airmen out at the unheard-of rate of 120 hours per month - the Eight Air Force in England had usually flown a maximum of 30 hours per month - as they methodically burned down within ten days Tokyo, Nagoya, Kobe, and Osaka before turning to smaller cities. His ground crews simply unloaded the bombs at the dock and drove them right over to the bombers, without storing them in arms depots. Between 300 and 400 planes roared out almost every other day, their crews in the air 30 hours and more each week. Missions over Japan, including preliminary briefings and later debriefings, often meant 24 consecutive hours of duty. Benzedrine and coffee kept the flyers awake.
In exchange for the unprovoked but feeble attack at Pearl Harbor on their country, American farmers, college students, welders, and mechanics of a year past were now prepared - and quite able - to ignite all the islands of Japan. Their gigantic bombers often flew in faster than did the sleek Japanese fighters sent up to shoot them down. Japanese military leaders could scarcely grasp that in a matter of months colossal runways had appeared out of nowhere in the Pacific to launch horrendous novel bombers more deadly than any aircraft in history, commanded by a general as fanatical as themselves, and manned by teenagers and men in their early twenties more eager to kill than ever Japan's own feared veterans. So much for the Japanese myth that decadent pampered Westerners were ill equipped for the savagery of all-out war. Even in the wildest dreams of the most ardent Japanese imperialists, there was no such plan of destroying the entire social fabric of the American nation.
When the war ended, William Hanson had become a seasoned central fire control gunner on a B-29, with thirty-four raids over Japan. His plane and nearly a thousand others had materialized out of nowhere on the formal coral rock of the Mariana Islands, burned the major cities of Japan to the ground - and in about twelve months were gone for good. Yet for the rest of their lives these amateurs were fiercely loyal to the brutal architect of their lethal work, who announced after the war was over, "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal." LeMay was absolutely right - he would have. My father occasionally ridiculed LeMay's bluster and his cigar, but it was LeMay nonetheless whom he ridiculed - and LeMay whom he was proud that he had served under.
For much of my life I have wondered where such a murderous force of a season came from. And how a democracy made a willing killer out of my father and other farm boys, putting their lives in the hands of an unhinged zealot like LeMay, who was ostensibly neither emblematic of a democratic citizenry nor representative of the values that we purportedly cherish. Or was he? How can a democratic leader brag of such destruction, take pride in his force's ability to destroy thousands - in short, how can be be so utterly uncouth? How in less than a year after being assembled can a motley group of young recruits fly the most lethal bombers in history to incinerate a feared militaristic culture six thousand miles from their own home? And how can that most murderous air force in the world nearly disappear into the anonymity and amnesia of democracy six months after its victory?
Those thoughts are the easy anxieties of the desk-bound class. I have come to realize that both Curtis LeMay and my father are stock types, not aberrations, of the democratic society that produced them. Democracy, and its twin of market capitalism, alone can instantly create lethal armies out of civilians, equip them with horrific engines of war, imbue them with a near-messianic zeal within a set time and place to exterminate what they understand as evil, have them follow to their death the most ruthless of men, and then melt anonymously back into the culture that produced them. It is democracies, which in the right circumstances, can be imbued with the soul of battle, and thus turn the horror of killing to a higher purpose of saving lives and freeing the enslaved.
My father knew of that soul long ago, which explains why during these last fifty years he was proud to have server under LeMay - an authentic military genius notwithstanding his extremism. Despite his horrific stories of B-29s overloaded with napalm blowing up on takeoff, of low-flying bombers shredded by flak and their crews of eleven sent spiraling into their self-generated inferno over Tokyo, of the smell of burning Japanese flesh wafting through the bomb-bay doors, of parachuting flyers beheaded on landing, he never equated that barbarity with either LeMay or himself.
On the contrary, he seemed to think that the carnage below his plane and the sacrifice of his friends in the air - twelve of sixteen B-29s in his 398th Squadron, 132 of 176b men, were shot down, crashed, or never heard from again - had been necessary to win the war against a racist imperial power, and to save, not expend, both Asian and American lives. Despite his lifelong Democratic party credentials, my father spoke highly of "Old Iron Pants" even in the midst of the general's subsequent entry into controversial right-wing politics. The bastard shortened the war against evil, my father told me. You were all lucky, he went on, once to have had angry men like LeMay and us in the air. We flew into the fire, he said, because we believed that we were saving more lives than we took. As he aged, all memories - childhood, job, family - receded as the recollection of those nights over Tokyo grew sharper; parties, vacations, and familial holiday festivities became sideshows compared to annual reunions with his 313th Bomber Wing and 398th Squadron. His last hallucinatory gasps of July 1998 were a foreign vocabulary of B-29 operations and frantic calls to crew members, most of whom were long since dead.
Democracies, I think, if the cause, if the commanding general, if the conditions of time and space take on their proper meaning - for a season can produce the most murderous armies from the most unlikely of men, and do so in the pursuit of something spiritual rather than the mere material.
What you want, and reality, may be 2 different things.
You're talking about how we used to fight and how we may fight in the future. I was talking about the reality of how we fight now. May not like it, but that's the way it is.
Thanx for the post, I'll read it more thoroughly later.
All the old problems - the weather, the enemy fighters, the jet stream, the high-altitude wear on the engines, political limitations on bombing civilians - were now irrelevant. There was to be no public objection to LeMay's burning down the industrial and residential center of the Japanese empire - too many stories about Japanese atrocities toward subjugated peoples and prisoners of war had filtered back to the American people.
Don't think it can't happen again.
well, they had better start immediately re-arming the citizens if they want to keep the ragheads from taking over and instituting sharia law.
Yep, no problem here, General LeMay - you may start bombing at will.
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