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F/A-22 Ups and Downs; the Tacair Debate; [Brian's Military Ping List]
Air Force Association ^ | May 2004

Posted on 05/31/2004 5:34:13 PM PDT by VaBthang4

Raptor Ready for Prime Time

At a March 22 review of the F/A-22 program, the Defense Acquisition Board found no reason that USAF should not proceed with initial operational test and evaluation (IOT &E) for its new stealthy fighter.

The DAB, which is chaired by acting Pentagon acquisition, technology, and logistics chief Michael W. Wynne, appeared satisfied with the aircraft’s progress despite earlier claims by some members that the Air Force was moving too quickly into IOT&E.

The board met to review whether the F/A-22’s avionics had met the level of stability that was mandated for entry into IOT&E. The Air Force was required to demonstrate that the avionics suite could sustain a five-hour-mean-time-between-failure rate for critical elements. (See “The F/A-22 Force Forms Up,” April, p. 34.)

The day after the DAB meeting, Marvin R. Sambur, USAF’s top acquisition official, told lawmakers that Wynne had said he was “very encouraged by the program’s progress” and saw “no impediment to entering IOT&E in the April time frame.”

Sambur also told a House subcommittee that, although the Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center had “not formally completed” its analysis, the AFOTEC commander found the F/A-22’s performance “very impressive.” That constituted a rave review, according to Sambur.

“I have never heard an AFOTEC commander ... use anything better than, ‘It is OK’ ” when describing a weapon system, said Sambur.

At the same hearing, Lt. Gen. Ronald E. Keys, USAF’s deputy chief of staff for air and space operations, responded to a question about a mock dogfight in which eight F-15Cs engaged four F/A-22s. He said the Eagles “all died.” Keys added that most of the F-15s never even got off a shot against the F/A-22s.

The thumbs up by the DAB and the upbeat testimony by Air Force officials was in sharp contrast to a March 15 General Accounting Office report. The Congressional watchdog agency had reported that the F/A-22 was still struggling to meet avionics requirements. (See below.)

However, Keys told the lawmakers that the GAO report was simply out of date. “This is a moving target,” he said.

Sambur emphasized that the F/A-22 program “is now at 6.1 [hours] vs. the five-hour metric.”

GAO Seeks New F/A-22 “Business Case”

The GAO charged, in its report and testimony, that the Pentagon had failed to provide sufficient information to Congress to justify the number of F/A-22s USAF plans to buy or its modernization investment plans for the new stealthy fighter.

The GAO said DOD “did not address key business case questions such as how many F/A-22s are needed, how many are affordable, and if alternatives to planned investments increasing the F/A-22 air-to-ground capabilities exist.”

The business case that DOD did provide to Congress said it “planned to buy 277 F/A-22s based on a ‘buy-to-budget’ concept,” according to the GAO. The GAO said that DOD, if held to the $36.8 billion production cost cap imposed by Congress in 1998, could only buy about 218 F/A-22s.

The higher number is based on the Pentagon’s production cost cap of $42.2 billion, which several lawmakers at the April hearing said violated the Congressional mandate. DOD and Air Force acquisition leaders stated at the hearing that the Pentagon planned to ask for relief from the statutory cost cap.

Sambur on April 11 told lawmakers that the Air Force was “not happy” with either number. He said the service maintains it needs “something in the order of 381.” (See “Editorial: The Raptor Review,” April, p. 2.)

GAO claimed that USAF had included $3.5 billion for addition of improved ground-attack capabilities through 2009 but that the service would actually need $11.7 billion. Air Force Secretary James G. Roche said he finds it hard to grasp the $8 billion difference.

“The biggest change is the radar,” Roche said at a Defense Writers Group meeting in mid-March. “In changing the radar, the price of the radar falls 40 percent. So it doesn’t go up; it goes down.”

Roche said the “second biggest change” is inclusion of the small diameter bomb, but the small diameter bomb is going to go on lots of things.” He added, “I don’t know what got included in the costs of air-to-ground.”

Taking Sides on Tacair

The mostly favorable news on the F/A-22 impressed many members of Congress, most of whom said the F/A-22 is on firmer ground. However, they noted that tactical aviation as a whole is facing stiff problems.

Rep. Curt Weldon (R-Pa.), chairman of the Tactical Air and Land Forces Subcommittee, on March 25 claimed that, despite his support for the F/A-22, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, and the Navy’s F/A-18E/F, the long-anticipated procurement “train wreck”—too many programs and not enough money to fund them all—is approaching.

He said that the defense budget can’t sustain three Tacair programs along with other top defense needs.

“Something has to give,” Weldon said. It may be this year or the next several years, he said, but Congress is going to “have to be able to make some extremely difficult and tough decisions.”

Weldon pointed out that a year ago no one expected the Army to kill its Comanche scout helicopter program and said that he didn’t want to go any further with the three fighter programs if they aren’t all affordable.

The mounting pressure on Tacair programs was evident in other Congressional sessions, as well. However, support for the F/A-22 seemed solid, at least for the moment.

In a March 24 Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, chairman Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) said he is committed to the Raptor. “This committee did save the C-17,” said Stevens. “We saved the Predator. We saved the B-2. And, as far as I’m concerned, we’re going to save the F/A-22.”

One former foe of the F/A-22, Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-Calif.), chairman of the House Appropriations Defense Subcommittee, who dealt the program some significant delays and funding cuts in 1999, told Congressional Quarterly that he had turned around on the Raptor.

“Our members have come a long way down the path of believing that the F/A-22 is an asset that we cannot afford to do without,” said Lewis.

Weldon said he couldn’t see the F/A-22 being terminated, however, because it, like the F/A-18, is already in production. In his view, not being in production makes the F-35 vulnerable.

The F-35, on the other hand, he said, is “just a viewgraph” not a real airplane yet, and that could lead some to make it a target.

Weldon emphasized that the Pentagon does not have the “political clout to support something that is, maybe, three years from now vs. what is here—and that is a practical reality we have to deal with.”

However, Weldon pressed the services to “make the case” for the F-35 primarily because canceling the program would leave the Marine Corps “in a bind.”

New Study To Address Airlift Shortfall

Gen. John W. Handy, commander of US Transportation Command and Air Mobility Command, told lawmakers in March that the Defense Department will soon begin a new mobility capabilities study (MCS). It is long overdue, he said, because current airlift is about 18 percent short of the now obsolete airlift goals set by a study concluded nearly four years ago.

The earlier study, Mobility Requirements Study 2005, dubbed MRS-05, was released in January 2001. Since then, worldwide operations in support of the war on terrorism have caused airlift demands to surge. “The requirements in our business have gone up dramatically compared to what MRS-05 thought they would be,” Handy told the House Armed Services Committee.

He said that the new MCS would be an all encompassing mobility review—air, land, and sea. However, he emphasized that the airlift portion would see the most “dramatic impact.”

Handy said TRANSCOM’S No. 1 shortfall is its “aging and numerically inadequate strategic airlift fleet.”

The current strategic airlift shortfall of 9.8 million ton-miles per day (MTM/D) is based on the MRS-05 goal of 54.5 MTM/D. The true airlift shortfall is almost certainly greater than MRS-05 indicates.

Handy said that the Pentagon was to begin the new review by June and would issue a report by spring 2005. He noted that the 10-month timeline “presents an ambitious challenge.”

The TRANSCOM head also told lawmakers that to meet future air mobility challenges, the Air Force will need “high speed, low observable, multimission strategic mobility aircraft with short takeoff and landing as well as autonomous approach capabilities.”

Beyond Goldwater-Nichols

An independent study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies says that while DOD has made great strides in jointness and rationalizing its structure over the last 20 years, it is still wasting money and stifling innovation with unnecessary red tape and layers of bureaucracy.

Phase 1 of the CSIS report, titled “Beyond Goldwater-Nichols: Defense Reform for a New Strategic Era,” reviews and builds on the 1986 Goldwater-Nichols reforms, considered the most comprehensive defense reorganization effort since the 1947 National Security Act. The 1986 reforms enhanced civilian control of the department, secured the role of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as the principal military advisor, and strengthened the authority of combatant commanders—all changes that were intended to speed development of jointness among the services.

The center prepared the study that led to the Goldwater-Nichols legislation, prompting many defense analysts to suggest the new report may serve as a blueprint for a major restructuring of the Pentagon.

CSIS officials said the Beyond Goldwater-Nichols (BGN) team has regularly briefed Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and USAF Gen. Richard B. Meyers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, on the study.

John J. Hamre, president of CSIS and former deputy defense secretary, said he expects the Pentagon to implement the findings “almost to the degree of the Space Commission” report, issued in January 2001. Rumsfeld originally chaired the Space Commission and acted on its findings when he became Secretary.

In Phase 1 of Beyond Goldwater-Nichols, CSIS recommends eliminating entire layers of staff for the senior levels of the department to promote faster decision-making, shorter system development time, and greater accountability all around.

CSIS said the Office of the Secretary of Defense should “focus on policy formation and oversight, resist the temptation to manage programs, and consolidate housekeeping functions under an assistant secretary.”

Two of the senior layers targeted in the BGN report are the separate staffs maintained by each branch of the armed forces to support a service’s two most senior civilian and military leaders. For the Air Force, that would lead to the merger of the Secretariat and Air Staffs. CSIS believes this change within each service would “reduce friction,” foster better coordination, and “increase the coherency of service positions.”

Another recommendation would expand the undersecretary of intelligence position to include command, control, and communications. The BGN team indicated that such a move would improve the Pentagon’s ability to acquire and field joint interoperable command and control capabilities, an endeavor it is currently “failing.”

CSIS recommends that DOD eliminate competing sources of advice about personnel matters by combining elements of manpower and personnel on the Joint Staff with similar functions on Rumsfeld’s staff under a military deputy to the undersecretary of personnel and readiness.

For the logistics arena, the BGN team believes that both the Defense Secretary and JCS Chairman need stronger support. To achieve that, they would integrate much of the Joint Staff’s logistics function with the deputy undersecretary of defense for logistics and materiel readiness and place the new entity under a three-star military deputy to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology, and logistics. That would be “a major step in ensuring sufficient OSD attention to this critical function,” stated the report.

Other logistics recommendations include making a two-star deputy to the Joint Staff’s head of operations responsible for operational logistics planning and moving the Joint Logistics Operations Center under the J-3 (operations) umbrella.

The BGN group believes that Rumsfeld has made some progress toward enhancing joint focus in the resource allocation process, but they recommend more emphasis. Specifically, they want to give the combatant commanders a stronger role.

CSIS suggests the Pentagon must strengthen the defense civilian force, including creating a new Defense Professionals Corps “to attract the best and brightest ... and provide greatly expanded opportunities for professional development.”

At least three proposals are beyond the scope of the Pentagon but would significantly impact its operations. CSIS calls for the President to appoint a new Presidential assistant on the National Security Council staff to coordinate action between federal departments involved in operations abroad and create a new NSC Office of Stability Operations. In line with that move, CSIS said Congress should create an independent Agency for Stability Operations that contains a Civilian Stability Operations Corps that would organize, train, equip, and deploy a civilian force for post-military operations.

Additionally, the Beyond Goldwater-Nichols report suggests that Congress “reform itself” with an eye toward “reinvigorating Congressional oversight of DOD.” CSIS suggests that armed services committees should focus on macro strategy, policy, and organizational issues. The report also suggests Congress should sharply reduce the size of its authorizing committees and limit claims of jurisdiction over DOD operations.

Since Congress usually doesn’t give up power voluntarily, the authors asked Congress to establish a method similar to the base realignment and closure process to accomplish this task of assessing “current committee membership, structures, and jurisdictions and make recommendations on how to enhance Congressional oversight.” A second phase of the report, due to be completed early next year, will examine how DOD organizes for “new missions and new domains of warfare,” the acquisition process, defense agencies, and joint professional military education, among other topics.

Long-Range Strike Takes Steps Forward

The Air Force is speeding up its plans to acquire a new long-range strike capability by about a decade. Two new service offices—one at Air Combat Command and one at Air Force Materiel Command—have been set up to help quicken the pace toward finding a successor for today’s bombers.

The offices will develop an analysis of alternatives and manage acquisition of a future long-range strike capability, Gen. T. Michael Moseley, USAF vice chief of staff, told the House Armed Services Committee in March. He said that the Air Force planned to have a new system in service by 2025.

That is more than a decade sooner than USAF’s previous plan, which called for a bomber replacement to come online around 2037.

The two offices were funded out of the $100 million Congress inserted in the Fiscal 2004 defense authorization bill specifically to begin work on a successor to USAF’s bomber fleet. (See “Washington Watch: On to the Next Bomber,” January, p. 8.) Congress was concerned that USAF was not moving fast enough.

Moseley did not limit the new long-range strike system to a specific platform; instead he said USAF was considering a “portfolio of options that includes manned and unmanned systems, air breathing and space systems, and a wide mix of munitions connected to a network backbone of command and control that facilitates global strike.”

However, he noted that the service is still thinking about a “bridge capability” to provide more deep strike choices while the new system is developed.

To form this bridge, the Air Force is considering an F/A-22 variant, called an FB-22, to serve as a “regional” bomber, in the words of Secretary Roche. It would have a theater capability but not global reach. The FB-22 would have a range of about 1,800 miles, with a payload of up to 30 small diameter bombs. The aircraft would not have all the maneuvering capability of the F/A-22, but would retain stealth and high speed.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: airforce; f22; fa22; military; miltech; raptor; tactical
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What it looks like to the enemy.


1 posted on 05/31/2004 5:34:14 PM PDT by VaBthang4
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To: MP5SD; Gunrunner2; MudPuppy; tomcat; Gritty; opbuzz; spetznaz; PsyOp; XBob; CIBvet; Boot Hill; ...

2 posted on 05/31/2004 5:34:47 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: VaBthang4
I love reports like these, because they try to give the impression that these decisions have not already been made, when they have.

In case no one has been paying attention, the F-35 is D-E-A-D DEAD. There will be discussions, there will be reports, there will be development, research and limited funding. But next year, probably after BRAC, the F-35 will slip quietly into the night, never to be seen again. It is too fat, too slow and too late. It is done.

3 posted on 05/31/2004 5:42:35 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: VaBthang4
No, what it looks like to the enemy is the U.S. pouring money into a never-ending hole.

Moreover, it's the F-22, not the F/A-22. It's a fighter. It wasn't designed for plinking at muddy ground targets.

What has happened is that everyone in the world now realizes that something more advanced than the F-18 isn't needed. The F-22 is overkill for replacing the F-15, F-16, and eventually the F-18 (and the F-35 isn't even worth talking about).

So after spending $26 Billion for 23 F-22's, the Pentagon bureaucrats are scrambling to justify keeping the Raptor around...hence: now it's the F/A-22. Yeah, right.

This is vastly too much money to be spending for a fighter that isn't sub-orbital...much less one that still carries a man in it.

Yes, it's stealthy, but we've already got stealthy ground attack fighters and bombers. Why spend for more?

What we don't have are orbital and sub-orbital fighters. Likewise, we need to spend more for unmanned bombers and fighters.

The F-22 missed its time. It was born just at the point where it offers no cost-benefit advantage in battle. It's fast, yes. It's stealthy, yes...but we've already got those traits in our existing fleet.

If we are going to pay for more, then we should be getting more. That leaves the F-22 out.

4 posted on 05/31/2004 5:48:41 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Pukin Dog
"the F-35 is D-E-A-D DEAD. There will be discussions, there will be reports, there will be development, research and limited funding. But next year, probably after BRAC, the F-35 will slip quietly into the night, never to be seen again. It is too fat, too slow and too late. It is done."

Good riddance to that beast.

5 posted on 05/31/2004 5:49:55 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
Too many wrongs to note, so just WRONG. Name a single aircraft in the inventory that can TODAY drop a couple JDAM on a North Korean Nuke plant and get out?
6 posted on 05/31/2004 5:51:47 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
"Too many wrongs to note, so just WRONG. Name a single aircraft in the inventory that can TODAY drop a couple JDAM on a North Korean Nuke plant and get out?"

"B-1B Drops first GPS-guided JDAM
A B-1B Lancer flying out of Edwards AFB, Calif., on Feb. 11 dropped a JDAM at China Lake test range in the first demonstration of the bomber's capability to deploy satellite-guided JDAMs."

7 posted on 05/31/2004 5:55:13 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Pukin Dog

You must work for Boeing.


8 posted on 05/31/2004 5:58:36 PM PDT by Monty22
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To: Pukin Dog

In January 2004, an F-117 successfully released a JDAM (JDAM) 2,000lb bomb for the first time. The integration of JDAM and other precision-guided weapons on the F-117 is coupled with the Block II software upgrade and is planned to achieve Initial Operating Capability (IOC) in 2005.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f117/


9 posted on 05/31/2004 6:00:51 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Pukin Dog

Having sat in the depths of the TLAM planning cell during the opening days of OIF, I'd say we're screwing up if we use any manned aircraft to drop a JDAM on a Korean nuke plant. I watched third generation cruise missiles work magic. And those were just the old inventory we wanted to clear out to make room for the really good stuff. Call me a sellout, but we don't need the F-22 to take out fixed targets. We've got better capability already on the shelf.


10 posted on 05/31/2004 6:02:41 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Pukin Dog

GBU-31 JDAM

A 2,000 lb GBU-31 JDAM being lifted up for loading
Mission Close air support, air interdiction, counterair, airborne strike, suppression of enemy air defense
Targets Mobile hard, mobile soft, fixed hard, fixed soft, maritime surface
Designation GBU-31(V)1/B GBU-31(V)2/B GBU-31(V)3/B GBU-31(V)4/B
Guidance Set KMU-556/B KMU-556/B KMU-557/B KMU-558/B
Service USAF Navy USAF Navy
Status Operational
First capability 1997
Guidance GPS/INS
Length 152.72 in 152.72 in 148.60 in 148.60 in
Diameter -
Finspan 25 in (10 cm)
Weight 2,065 lb (936 kg) 2,085 lb (945 kg) 2,137 lb (969 kg) 2,161 lb (980 kg)
Warhead Mk-84 Mk-84 BLU-109 BLU-109
Range up to 15 miles (24 km)
CEP 13 m
Unit cost $21,000 per tailkit (FY 01 dollars)
Platforms B-52 B-1B B-2 F-15 F-16 F-117 F-14 F-18

11 posted on 05/31/2004 6:04:02 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Pukin Dog

I might agree with you on the F-35 if it wasn't already widely supported throughout the international community, with no viable alternative on the books.


12 posted on 05/31/2004 6:04:30 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Southack
I said over North Korea.

No B-1 would ever get there without getting shot a dozen times. No F-117 would ever return from that mission. Both aircraft would require escort on Egress.

I ask you again. I'm talking about the most heavily defended airspace on this earth. If the B-1 or F-117 could have performed this mission, they already would have.

13 posted on 05/31/2004 6:04:54 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog

Rumsfeld said he wanted to skip a generation of technology. If true [and it seems it is considering he dumped the Crusader and Comanche] then the F-35 & F-22 should be next on the chopping block.

The F-22 may win out and live considering it's already flying matter but the F-35 is probably toast.


14 posted on 05/31/2004 6:09:38 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Rokke
Read this, then tell me what you think

I would never call you a sellout, buddy. If anything, you aint gruntin' like I suggested, and those Gs are messin with you. ;-0

15 posted on 05/31/2004 6:10:01 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: VaBthang4
"make the case” for the F-35 primarily because canceling the program would leave the Marine Corps “in a bind.” "

Who cares? We need 3 independent air forces? Let them use F-18s...

16 posted on 05/31/2004 6:14:25 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: VaBthang4; Rokke
and it seems it is considering he dumped the Crusader and Comanche

Those programs are SO dead.

As for those nations supporting the F-35, they are the ones screaming the loudest over the fat. The Aussies in particular. They don't want that fat baby anymore and are asking for Super Hornets. The EFA has new life too.

17 posted on 05/31/2004 6:14:30 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
Name a single aircraft in the inventory that can TODAY drop a couple JDAM on a North Korean Nuke plant and get out?

In the end there can be only one. F-22.

Critical parts for the F-22 are made right here in Helena, MT by Summit Aero. Engine bay doors and BDFX's roll off the line daily.

There are 65 steely-eyed killers, out there by the airport, working 24-7.

18 posted on 05/31/2004 6:15:07 PM PDT by CholeraJoe ("Embrace the suck." MG Dave Petraeus, 101st Airborne Division)
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To: Pukin Dog
"No F-117 would ever return from that mission.'

No, I disagree.

The Koreans simply dont have the training to react in time to such a strike. If we'd actually try and strike NK then we'd have F111 jamming everything they had anyway...what they turned on would be hit by weasils...the best they'd do is blind fire and then try & scramble something to give chase...hounds to the hunters.

The ChiKors couldnt drop it [them]. Maybe if they knew the planned route & waypoints [they wouldnt]. As to egress we'd already have Eagles waiting for it to DEDE out of the AO.

19 posted on 05/31/2004 6:15:23 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: VaBthang4
NK can put up such a thick wall of flak, the F-117 driver could get out and walk on all the lead flying at him. He could get there, but he could not get home.
20 posted on 05/31/2004 6:18:12 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Southack
Same old nuance. Air superiority is the one mission to never compromize on, because it makes all the others possible. The F-22 is far and away the biggest advance over existing capabilities on the table. It is to older fighters what they were to early jets, or those to prop planes. It makes every existing threat AC obsolete. And that is worth plenty.
21 posted on 05/31/2004 6:18:13 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: Pukin Dog
"No B-1 would ever get there without getting shot a dozen times. No F-117 would ever return from that mission."

OK, I'll bite. What do the North Koreans have that can shoot down our F-117's with JDAM's and Software Block II upgrades at maximum standoff range?

22 posted on 05/31/2004 6:19:33 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Pukin Dog
Hey Dog,

I'm just a lil ole gal whose only experience with military aviation is watching the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels at air shows, but..... $1 BILLION plus for a single plane?

And that's the F-22, the F-35 certainly has to be more.

Will we shortly get to the point where we only have a handful of planes in the Air Force due to the high unit cost, they'll be GREAT planes, but if only a few of them get taken out we're toast??

23 posted on 05/31/2004 6:20:24 PM PDT by Charlotte Corday
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To: Pukin Dog
Yeah so did the Iraqis...and they knew we were coming.

The Radar station @ Objective Oklahoma was able to get a transmission out before we the first Nighthawks hit Baghdad...plus they had their own spy network letting them know about the air traffic in and around Saudi.
The Iraqis knew something was up and they still couldn't bring down a single nighthawk. The Koreans have a lamer air defense network...built by the ChiComs, they couldn't hit'em either.

24 posted on 05/31/2004 6:23:48 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: JasonC
"The F-22 is far and away the biggest advance over existing capabilities on the table. It is to older fighters what they were to early jets, or those to prop planes. It makes every existing threat AC obsolete. And that is worth plenty."

Other planes are already obsolete. What can stand up to the F-15, F-16, F-14, and F-117...much less to the F-18?

It's like being dead twice. You're already dead.

The F-22 is overkill. What we've already got makes everything else obsolete.

The next step, therefore, is going sub-orbital (something that a certain American civilian named Rutan is going to do this year), followed by orbital fighters. Unmanned fighters and bombers will likewise handle the lower altitudes as time progresses.

But the F-22 can't do what Rutan's civilian SpaceShipOne can do. It can't go as high as Rutan and it can't go as fast. Rutan's machine carries up to 3 people and costs only $10 million. The F-22 can't touch that, even though we're spending more than a Billion Dollars per Raptor right now.

Why? For what?

25 posted on 05/31/2004 6:26:27 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
OK, I'll bite. What do the North Koreans have that can shoot down our F-117's with JDAM's and Software Block II upgrades at maximum standoff range?

Nothing.

But..... they have thousands of SA-5, and tens of thousands of anti-aircraft guns. The sheer numbers are the problem. High PK against us, just from all the flying metal. They wont see it coming, but they would catch it leaving.

26 posted on 05/31/2004 6:26:46 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog

Jumper's paper was written pre-9/11 2001. A lot of his assumptions didn't even carry through to OEF, nevermind OIF. I watched USAF Gen Mosely during OIF cede targets to submarine launched cruise missiles for reasons Jumper never touches on. Mind you, we also had unlimited access to B-2's and other platforms. We will never have enough manned aircraft to saturate new, integrated SAM missile systems. The cruise missile tracks of our initial strikes on Baghdad looked like a wiring diagram for a warehouse full of Cray computers. They came from every direction and every altitude. And we didn't have to worry about a single egress or recovery. The entire operation was planned by 12 guys, none of whom ranked higher than O-5. And the entire cost was less than a single B-2. As a fighter guy, it was humbling (except that the head of the strike cell was a Navy fighter guy).


27 posted on 05/31/2004 6:27:49 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: VaBthang4

It looks like a little red "x"?

Man, we have to think about this.


28 posted on 05/31/2004 6:28:02 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (This is a tag: </> This is a Line ---------)
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To: Pukin Dog
"NK can put up such a thick wall of flak, the F-117 driver could get out and walk on all the lead flying at him."

What flak can the NK's put up above 40,000 feet?

29 posted on 05/31/2004 6:28:07 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack
"F-15, F-16, F-14"

Sukhoi's bird can square up against all of them...and win. But the Sukhoi is toast when you factor in our overall air strategy [InfSys network, Data links] ....and far more importantly, training.

30 posted on 05/31/2004 6:30:03 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Pukin Dog
"If anything, you aint gruntin' like I suggested, and those Gs are messin with you. ;-0"

Well, you see...my head is up my ass as always, and the hemoroids are messing with my brain.

31 posted on 05/31/2004 6:30:23 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Pukin Dog

I hope that F35 money goes into more airlift and more tankers. Aren't we still using KC 135s?


32 posted on 05/31/2004 6:31:16 PM PDT by Rockpile
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To: Rokke

Haha...I appreciate your insight.


33 posted on 05/31/2004 6:31:44 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Southack
But the F-22 can't do what Rutan's civilian SpaceShipOne can do. It can't go as high as Rutan and it can't go as fast. Rutan's machine carries up to 3 people and costs only $10 million.

Do you wish to be taken seriously? Come on.

If you were to take every capability of Rutan's bird, then hang a JDAM or two on it, do you know what you would have? Oh, wait, I forgot about targeting systems. Oh wait, I forgot about defensive systems. Oops, JSTARS, cant forget that. Uh oh, LANTIRN, gotta have it. Oh, wait.......Oops,.......Oh!....Um....

Lets assume you did not eat your Wheaties today?

34 posted on 05/31/2004 6:32:22 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog; Rokke; Travis McGee; ALOHA RONNIE; wretchard; Jeff Head; Cannoneer No. 4
HISTORY IS REPLETE with battles, campaigns, and wars that were lost because fundamental changes in the nature of warfare went unrecognized.

I think we're at such a moment now. Since anti-Americanism is a symptom of infection by the meme we fight (memes are self replicating, viral ideas), we're talking about something very new. Its vectors include religion, marxism, and media.

It's going to be interesting to see how we handle it. If we don't, we'll be extinct. I don't dispute our current approach, at least what is visible of it. But I think it's going to take something more creative. Right now we're just racing out to meet the barbarians at the gates. But the first lesson of 9/11 should have shown that there aren't any gates in this war.

What is our Manginot Line this time? It may be our unwillingness to manage global media in our own favor, but we can't touch it with our current laws. We can't touch it with our own current beliefs, either.

If we survive, it may never be revealed how it was accomplished. I am certain that it won't be a mechanical weapons system that neutralizes the meme that has been unleashed against us.

Something tells me we will survive, though.

35 posted on 05/31/2004 6:33:26 PM PDT by risk
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To: Rockpile
"I hope that F35 money goes into more airlift"

Agreed.

36 posted on 05/31/2004 6:33:44 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: risk
"If we survive, it may never be revealed how it was accomplished. I am certain that it won't be a mechanical weapons system that neutralizes the meme that has been unleashed against us. "

I think you are exactly right. Except that there is no "if". We WILL survive.

37 posted on 05/31/2004 6:35:36 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Charlotte Corday

If you could take a ride in one, you'd think it was cheap at twice the price...


38 posted on 05/31/2004 6:35:43 PM PDT by ken5050
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To: Southack
Please tell me you are NOT suggesting an F-117 precision attack profile from 40K? Please tell me.
39 posted on 05/31/2004 6:36:48 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: risk
"What is our Manginot Line this time?"

The Immigration & Naturalization Service as well as hard & fast Border Control.

Both overwhelmingly lacking.

40 posted on 05/31/2004 6:36:54 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Rokke
That's going to have to be some GOOD beer, dude.
41 posted on 05/31/2004 6:37:43 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: freedumb2003
"It looks like a little red "x"? Man, we have to think about this."

?

You lost me.

42 posted on 05/31/2004 6:38:57 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Pukin Dog

I'll bring my wife...she's cute.


43 posted on 05/31/2004 6:38:58 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Rokke

I'm very optimistic, too.


44 posted on 05/31/2004 6:39:11 PM PDT by risk
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To: Pukin Dog
"Please tell me you are NOT suggesting an F-117 precision attack profile from 40K?"

Why, what's the problem?

45 posted on 05/31/2004 6:40:01 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Rokke
Viper drivers always have cute wives. Kinda goes with the 'cute' airplane. ;-0
46 posted on 05/31/2004 6:40:16 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: VaBthang4

I swear by all that is Holy that I have refreshed this page like 10 times and all I saw was a little red x (broken img link).

When I checked back on your response, I saw the pic.


Hmmm.. double stealth technology (or they are trying to keep me from knowing the truth)..


47 posted on 05/31/2004 6:41:34 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (This is a tag: </> This is a Line ---------)
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To: VaBthang4
HA-Precision attack profiles are from within 12-25K. 40 is too high.
48 posted on 05/31/2004 6:41:50 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: freedumb2003

Oh...hahaha...it happens. :o)


49 posted on 05/31/2004 6:42:35 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps")
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To: Charlotte Corday
With development cost amortized over so few planes, it doesn't seem cost-effective.

I'd like to see a whole bunch of SCAM-jet UAVs. I'd like the parameters to be "how good a unit can we get for unit cost $1M, min quantity 10,000?"

50 posted on 05/31/2004 6:43:04 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (That which does not kill me had better be able to run away damn fast.)
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