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The Open Door: How Militant Islamic Terrorists Entered and Remained in the United States, 1993-2001
Center for Immigration Studies Paper No. 21 ^ | Steven A. Camarota

Posted on 06/01/2004 9:47:14 PM PDT by Robert Lomax

Executive Summary

The nation’s response to the horrific attacks of September 11, 2001 has taken many forms, from military action to expanded security measures at airports. As important as these measures are, there is probably no more important tool for preventing future attacks on U.S. soil than the nation’s immigration system because the current terrorist threat comes almost exclusively from individuals who arrive from abroad. The purpose of this study is to examine how foreign terrorists have entered and remained in the country in an effort to identify weaknesses in the system that can then lead to meaningful reforms. Rather than just focus on 9/11, we examine terrorism on U.S. soil over the last decade to provide a more complete picture of the threat.

While no immigration system can be completely foolproof, if only some of those involved in a terrorist plot can be stopped by our immigration system, it is possible that whatever conspiracy they are part of could be uncovered. Including the 9/11 hijackers, 48 foreign-born militant Islamic terrorists have been charged, been convicted, pled guilty, or admitted to involvement in terrorism within the United States since 1993. Almost all of these individuals are now thought to be linked to Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda organization. This study focuses on militant Islamic terrorists because the threat they pose dwarfs that from any other terrorists, foreign or domestic. In addition to 9/11, some of the plots examined in the study include the murder of employees outside of CIA headquarters, the first attack on the World Trade Center, a plot to bomb the subway in Brooklyn, plots to bomb New York City landmarks, and the Millennium plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport.

Continued...in pdf format

(Excerpt) Read more at cis.org ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; immigrantlist; immigration; jihadinamerica; september10th
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Its about 66 pages and well worth the read. http://www.cis.org is an excellent sight to obtain knowledge on what is happening with U.S. immigration.
1 posted on 06/01/2004 9:47:14 PM PDT by Robert Lomax
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To: Robert Lomax
"Past amnesties for illegal aliens have facilitated terrorism. Mahmud Abouhalima, a leader of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, was legalized as a seasonal agricultural worker as part of the 1986 amnesty, which allowed him to travel abroad, including several trips to Afghanistan, where he received terrorist training."

The guest worker program that Bush proposes is basically an amnesty program that will allow millions to enter illegally.

2 posted on 06/01/2004 9:53:31 PM PDT by Robert Lomax
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To: Robert Lomax
The guest worker program that Bush proposes is basically an amnesty program that will allow millions to enter illegally.

Bush proposes the exact opposite of what America needs. Ever since he took office he has had no intention of enforcing existing immigration law. Makes one think twice about voting for him again, huh?

3 posted on 06/01/2004 9:57:38 PM PDT by janetgreen
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To: janetgreen
Bush proposes the exact opposite of what America needs. Ever since he took office he has had no intention of enforcing existing immigration law. Makes one think twice about voting for him again, huh?

Every day that he doesn't enforce the law, it makes it harder for me to want to keep my campaign pledges.

I am seriously considering voting for Peroutka, not because I agree with him on every issue, but because I want the government to repatriate illegal aliens and it just won't listen. If Kerry proposes amnesty and Bush proposes amnesty lite which will become amnesty in five years and ultimately bring in MORE Democratic voters, what kind of a choice is that?

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this. But believe me, it's very difficult for me to even think about bailing out. My parents raised me a faithful Republican, but more than that, they raised me a principled Conservative. If my party refuses to help me further the conservative cause, I simply won't help my party stay in power. It's that simple. If they can't do their part, I can't do mine.

I'll vote for many Republicans for sure (ESPECIALLY Marilyn Musgrave), but I don't know if I can muster up the strength to vote for Bush after his amnesty proposal. I'm trying, but I don't know if I can.

4 posted on 06/01/2004 10:24:59 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver
If my party refuses to help me further the conservative cause, I simply won't help my party stay in power.

I've come to the same conclusion, and that's why I'm voting for the Constitution Party. Peroutka won't win, but the many votes he will get will hopefully make a statement to both parties that we don't agree with them anymore.

5 posted on 06/01/2004 10:49:27 PM PDT by janetgreen
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To: MegaSilver
And if enough of you do that,just HOW is President Kerry going to make matters better?

Voting for someone who can't win makes a statement,but NOT the one you imagine it does.

6 posted on 06/01/2004 10:53:04 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: MegaSilver
And FYI...the badies,who flew those planes into the WRC and the Pentafon got into this country legally!

And then,there are the home-grown terrorist wannabes that were born here.

7 posted on 06/01/2004 10:54:54 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: janetgreen

He won't get all that many and the people who do vote for him,will be written off as KOOKS!


8 posted on 06/01/2004 10:55:56 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
And if enough of you do that,just HOW is President Kerry going to make matters better?

He won't.

But as the days go by, I watch myself--despite my efforts--begin to care less and less.

9 posted on 06/01/2004 11:06:30 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: nopardons
And FYI...the badies,who flew those planes into the WRC and the Pentafon got into this country legally!

Yes, they sure did. But the amnesty proposal isn't helping one bit--and makes another terrorist attack even MORE likely by encouraging illegal immigration. With more and more aliens spilling across the border unchecked, it'll be easier for the terrorists to slip through; why, after all, risk getting a VISA and potentially being monitored?

And then,there are the home-grown terrorist wannabes that were born here.

Yet another reason to put a moritorium on most or all immigration from the Middle East.

10 posted on 06/01/2004 11:10:01 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver
Okay...you need a little help,so please allow me to help you.

Remember Clinton? Remember that enough people got sucked into crazy Ross"s double talk and Clinton won? Do you want an even WORSE version of Clinton and his horde,in D.C.? Think that President Bush is "bad"/not quite up to snuff? LOOK AT FRENCHY,FLIP FLOP KERRY AND HIS "TEAM" OF CRAZIES!

Care,damn it CARE,before you go off to fringeland!

The CP is AGAINST the WoT,for crying out loud! Read their platform and websites.This isn't some benign group,that is all about sticking with the Constitution. And nobody ever claimed that any president is going to fulfill all your wishes.President Bush is a good,honorable man and a damned good president to boot! What he needs,come November is the largest number of votes and coattails!

Donna Brazil was on O'Reilly tonight.She said that IF the Dems lose this elections....IT'S ALL OVER FOR THE DEMS FOR DECADES.Those are Donna Brazil's words.Come on...let's make this happen and happen in a BIG way!

President Bush is NOT the "enemy";but the damned Dems sure are! Let's crush them and crush them BIG!

11 posted on 06/01/2004 11:17:11 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: MegaSilver
Boy-Taliban Lindth's family has been Americans for generations!Ditto that POS Padilla.And The other Californian Taliban-boy,who knew Lindth in Pakistan and offered to set him up,in marriage,with his sister-in-law.

Almost everyone on FR,who screams about the borders,means our Southern one,when it is a FACT that it's our Northern border,that terrorist illegals dribble through. And then,there's our coasts,which many illegals pour through,via ship containers;especially the Chinese!

Stop focusing on that none amnesty thing.It is NOT an "amnesty" at all.

12 posted on 06/01/2004 11:22:54 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
He won't get all that many and the people who do vote for him,will be written off as KOOKS!

At this point... I don't care that no one will listen. I don't care that it'll make no semblence of difference. I don't care that I'll accomplish nothing but the knowledge that I did the one thing I could do in an election like this: speak with my vote, however small and insignificant that voice may be.

One thing my Christian upbringing has instilled in me is an awareness of the nature of my humanity, and thus of my limitations. I can't possibly accomplish everything. The question is, where can I make the most difference? Will helping to get Bush re-elected make more of a difference that my tiny, unheard voice for Peroutka? A month ago, my answer would've been, "HECK YEAH!" (I was even at the Kerry rally right up next to JFK with Bush signs). But as the days go by, I find it harder and harder to say "yes" and really believe it in my heart.

Believe me, this is not a light decision, nor a thoughtless one. I don't want President Kerry. The question is, do I not want President Kerry as much as I want to stand up for what I believe in (even if I make no visible accomplishment)?

13 posted on 06/01/2004 11:23:21 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: doug from upland; Mia T; RaceBannon; Cacique; kristinn; kcvl

Klintoon legacy bump!


14 posted on 06/01/2004 11:27:27 PM PDT by nutmeg (Land of the Free - Thanks to the Brave)
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To: nopardons
The CP is AGAINST the WoT,for crying out loud!

Well, I'm going to get myself killed for saying this, but in a sense, so am I. Fighting a "War on Terror," so to speak, would be a rather humanitarian, interventionist-type cause. What we are really fighting, and what I wish someone would have the spine to ADMIT we are really fighting, is a war against militant Islam (which may ultimately turn out to be the true nature of Islam).

No politician will ever admit that. It's ridiculous to expect any of them to. But it's a nice little fantasy.

President Bush is a good,honorable man and a damned good president to boot!

Hey, I like him personally. And I like a number of the things he's done (cut taxes, ban partial-birth abortion, support the marriage amendment in the face of potential fireworks) and dislike some others (endorse an assault weapons ban, propose an amnesty).

Donna Brazil was on O'Reilly tonight.She said that IF the Dems lose this elections....IT'S ALL OVER FOR THE DEMS FOR DECADES.Those are Donna Brazil's words.Come on...let's make this happen and happen in a BIG way!

Maybe she's right. Maybe she's not. I'm certainly not knowledgable enough to evaluate her statement fairly; all I know is that what I've seen doesn't give me *quite* the same confidence.

There's one more thing. Why have a Republican Party in power if it acts like the Democratic Party on some really important issues? Maybe the other issues are worth it in your opinion, and that's fine. But I can't say for sure if they are to me.

15 posted on 06/01/2004 11:36:35 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver
I've read your posts before.I know that you aren't one of FR's persistant KOOKS,who ared the fringe of the fringe and really haven't a clue.so let me help you...please.

Let's look at this logically;shall we?

If enough people,for whatever reason,vote fringe,instead of for President Bush,Kerery WILL be president?Will that be so terrible? MORE TERRIBLE THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE!</>

If President Bush only wins by a little,he's won,but that is NOT really enough.WHY?Because it isn't coattail worthy and not nearly a big enough pointed stick in the eyes of the Dems AND our enemies everywhere.

And,you might just as well stay home...no,I take that back...you would do better,to just stay home,than to cast your vote for a candidate who espouses the insane garbage,that old Pero...whatever his name is and thwe Constitution Party stand for.As a Christian,how can you cast a vote for a candidate who not only is going to lose,but stands for a bunch of things that sounds like it's a KKK meeting speech?

Are YOU perfect? I'm, not.Is President Bush "perfect"? No way! Is a Kerry presidency a nightmare of untold proportions? YOU BET IT IS! Is voting for some crazy guy,just to make some sort of statement,which will NEVER be taken as "making a statement" at all,a pretty bad idea? YES, YES,A HUNDRED TIMES YES!

Look at it this way...voting CP is about the same as pulling the lever for Kerry and then going off into the woods and screaming :" I HAVE PRINCIPLES,BUT I'D RATHER CUT OFF MY NOSE,TO SPITE MY FACE,THAN GET EVEN 50% OF THE THINGS I WANT!"

Answer me this one query..."Was Clinton's first term better,than what a second term for President GHW Bush might have been?"

16 posted on 06/01/2004 11:44:05 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Robert Lomax

They must have been reading Freerepublic....we've been saying the same things for ages.

Maybe they should just stop immigration for awhile, until they figure out how to handle it. Wonder if anyone has thought of that?

This is a facinating read, got through over half of it and skimmed the rest. Saved for later.


17 posted on 06/01/2004 11:46:00 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: nopardons
"Donna Brazil was on O'Reilly tonight.She said that IF the Dems lose this elections....IT'S ALL OVER FOR THE DEMS FOR DECADES"

Maybe that will help a few see why the Democrats are so hell-fire bent on bringing the Bush administration to it's knees over the Iraq war. They are playing a dangerous game now, and they know it!

18 posted on 06/01/2004 11:50:47 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: MegaSilver
Life ain't FAIR and then you die.

Come on..........get over this feeling of blah and grow a spine yourself!

We really don't have enough of a majority in the Senate,to do what it is that needs to be done and Frist is just dreadful as Majority Leader!

Is that glass 1/2 full,1/2 empty,or not there at all?

Kerry would hand our sovereignty over to the damned UN and crawl,on hands and knees to France and Germany,to sue for permission to do anything.

Diplomacy,not just damned PC junk,means not saying things as bluntly as you or I would like,but that's how it is.

19 posted on 06/01/2004 11:50:54 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
First of all, I want to say that my opposition to illegal immigration is only partially driven by the potential for terrorists to seep in with the lot. I readily admit it's more of a related issue to terrorism than a part of the issue.

Second:

Stop focusing on that none amnesty thing.It is NOT an "amnesty" at all.

"Amnesty" is, according to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, "the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals." Now, I realize that dictionaries are more useful in telling how words are used than in telling precisely what they mean, but in this case, the preceding was the only definition given for the word. Such narrow allowable usage probably means that it is not too far off from the actual definition.

Now, let's get the facts. These people entered our country illegally--a crime punishable by detention and deportation. President Bush's proposal would instead allow them legal status. Not the same status they might have gotten had they entered legally, to be sure, but legal status as esentially a reward for the illegal behavior of at least 12 million people--behavior which, by all legal standards, should be punished.

Support the amnesty or don't, but don't tell me that the rewarding rather than the punishing of lawbreakers is not amnesty. As National Review put it, "To suggest [so] is an insult to our intelligence."

There's another thing to consider. In theory, this will not result in 12 million more U.S. citizens (and probably future Democratic voters as well), as they will have to leave the country after three years, right? In practice, it probably will, for a couple of reasons. First, the anchor baby law. Second, the fact that promises to keep amnesties restrained have never been kept. I'm told that several million people fraudulently grabbed the 1986 amnesty, which was MEANT for a few hundred thousand people who had been living and working here illegally. And, of course, the promise to secure the borders and keep illegals out was certainly not kept.

The more we give to illegal aliens, the more foreigners will get the idea that there's no consequences for breaking our laws. That is nothing but bad.

20 posted on 06/01/2004 11:51:50 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: TheLion

I'm afraid that an awful lot of people,here,wear blinkers and ear plugs.I wish that they would at least take a look at what she said and then do some VERY hard thinking.Donna was awfully honest and candid on O'Reilly's show.I don't know why,but she was and she's no political naif.


21 posted on 06/01/2004 11:53:37 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

I've heard all these arguments before. I've USED a few of them myself. I understand what you're saying, and you have a valid point.

But once again, lately I've been finding myself more and more unable to believe what I've been saying: that getting Bush re-elected will, in the long run, be better enough than electing Kerry that I'm not willing to risk the latter and stand for principle over party.

That's me. I've not yet made my final decision. I don't look forward to making it.


22 posted on 06/01/2004 11:59:06 PM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: nopardons

I've talked to many Dems....I'm near DC and they are aware of the problem we have. They are torn but a few have told me they think Bush should finish the job!


23 posted on 06/01/2004 11:59:12 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: nopardons
hand our sovereignty over to the damned UN

The problem is, I'm thinking that in the long term, that might be inevitable.

24 posted on 06/02/2004 12:01:13 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver

It sounds like I was raised just like you. A conservative republican. Both parents worked many years in the republican party at the local levels as volunteers. I, also remember how proud I was that the republicans won both houses of congress in 1992 and was wishing that my parents were alive at the time. They would have been so proud.

They also explained what a Rockefellow republican was and said to never vote for one. This is where I have my problems with Bush and his open borders policy.

I know where you are coming from as I am at that same point also.


25 posted on 06/02/2004 12:03:21 AM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: MegaSilver
Okay...you know that REAGAN GAVE BLANKET ANMESTY.Do you think that Reagan was a good or bad president?

You and THE NATIONAL REVIEW can speculate and hypothesize and play games about a nonamnesty being an amnesty until pigs sprout wings and fly to the moon,for all I care.That still leaves the fact that to NOT vote for President Bush,come Novenmebr,won't alter that one little bit!Vote fringe and you have done zero,nada,ziltch,bupkiss,NOTHING to make a difference.You have a chance TO make a difference and instead,you'll be little different from some two year old throwing a temper tantrum in an empty room.

TERRORIST ARE HERE NOW,CLOSING EVERY BOREDER,BUILDING WALLS AROUND THE LOWER 48...LARGER THAN THE FREAT WALL OF CHINA...WON'T STOP A DAMNED THING!

I lost people I knew and know the family members and friends of quite a lot of people who lost friends & family on 9/11.I'm not calling for what you are,nor imagining that not voting for President Bush is going to make things better. So,WHY are you becoming so wobbly now? How many people,that you knew and/or were related to,were murdered on 9/11?

26 posted on 06/02/2004 12:05:27 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

The country known as the US of A will not end if Kerry is elected, neither will it end because of a re-election of Bush. That is campaign rhetoric, Donna Brazile is trying to scare the Dim base, like you are trying to frighten the Pub base. I know that the President will either be Kerry or Bush, no other candidate has a chance. I just refuse to be a lemming and follow the crowd. The negative campaign that has been being pushed since '96 is wearing heavily on people, and they are losing interest. I can remember a man named Limbaugh saying in 2000, that if the Republicans controlled the House, Senate and the Executive, and still they did not reduce the size and scope of govt, he would not support them further. Well they have had control for quite some time, we have a MUCH larger govt, are entangled in a war with no end, and the deficit is higher than even Democrats could make it. With all of that happening, people get on here and talk about the difference in the parties? C'mon, pull another lie out of your hat. If the Republicans controlled the houses of Congress, and Kerry was President, things would be virtually identical to today, except the deficit would be MUCH smaller, and the Pubbies would be touting their ideas for reducing the size of govt again. I will probably vote for Bush, but I cannot think of a single reason why, except for hope, and hope is not a very good reason to cast a vote on..........is it???


27 posted on 06/02/2004 12:06:27 AM PDT by jeremiah (Sunshine scares all of them, for they all are cockaroaches)
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To: texastoo
I know where you are coming from as I am at that same point also.

It's a really lonely place, huh?

28 posted on 06/02/2004 12:10:52 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver
"Principle"? That's the excuse of cowards and the naive.Please don't use that.

So...a Kerry presidency won't be so bad? Really? As compared to what...being a Jew in Germany,when Hitler was running the show?

Kerry'll raise taxes.Kerry will appoint and nominate faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar lefty judges.Kerry will NOT fight the WoT and you'd better believe that he'll sell this country out,worse than the Clintons did.YOU WANT TERRY HEINZ KERRY AS FIRST LADY? She's worse than Hillary.

If you are finding yourself unable,for whatever reason,to see that a second term,for this president is worthwhile,do yourself a favor...get off FR.Stop listening to the radio,don't read any newspapers,stop watching T.V. and take a vacation.Then,watch the Dem convention in July.Read the papers again,listen to the radio,watch T.V.,and watch the GOP convention in August.

29 posted on 06/02/2004 12:14:00 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: TheLion
My daughter is,believe it or not,actually getting through to Dems in Chicago and has gotten quite a few to vote for President Bush come November.

Why supposed Conservatives,on FR,are losing it now,NOW, is beyond my ken.

30 posted on 06/02/2004 12:16:11 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: MegaSilver
You're on overload,if you think that President Bush would EVER do such a thing.

Please,please,take a vacation,get some rest,you just are NOT making any sense.

31 posted on 06/02/2004 12:17:37 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: texastoo

The GOP did NOT win both House in '92!


32 posted on 06/02/2004 12:18:50 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Okay...you know that REAGAN GAVE BLANKET ANMESTY.Do you think that Reagan was a good or bad president?

I think he was a good president. Like you said, no one's perfect, though, and his blanket amnesty was definitely a low point. I had beefs with Bush long before the amnesty, though. There was, for example, his record on spending and education. The amnesty proposal really sent me over the edge, especially since, unlike Reagan, Bush should have known from observing a past mistake that this amnesty would be a HUGE mistake.

You and THE NATIONAL REVIEW can speculate and hypothesize and play games about a nonamnesty being an amnesty until pigs sprout wings and fly to the moon,for all I care.That still leaves the fact that to NOT vote for President Bush,come Novenmebr,won't alter that one little bit!Vote fringe and you have done zero,nada,ziltch,bupkiss,NOTHING to make a difference.You have a chance TO make a difference and instead,you'll be little different from some two year old throwing a temper tantrum in an empty room.

You've made your point. And in the short run, I agree with you; Bush will be much better than Kerry. In the long run, how much of a difference will there be? Enough that it was worth it to vote for Bush rather than to vote for my favorite candidate? It might be. But the more time goes on, the more ambiguous my answer to that question becomes.

I lost people I knew and know the family members and friends of quite a lot of people who lost friends & family on 9/11.I'm not calling for what you are,nor imagining that not voting for President Bush is going to make things better. So,WHY are you becoming so wobbly now? How many people,that you knew and/or were related to,were murdered on 9/11?

I'm really sorry to hear that. Maybe you can feel something I just can't understand and never will.

I can only do the best with the knowledge I have. The knowledge I have makes me believe that Europe, Canada, and the United States continue to sell their souls like whores, and that electing Bush will not stem that in the long run. (If you want one specific example, there was an element in the Bush administration that wanted LOST slipped through the legislature. Fortunately, the pundits exposed it just in time. But that's not all I'm worried about; some of these things are beyond Bush's control.)

33 posted on 06/02/2004 12:20:31 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: jeremiah

Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but couldn't muster up the energy to say.


34 posted on 06/02/2004 12:21:52 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: nopardons
You're on overload,if you think that President Bush would EVER do such a thing.

I don't think he would. But there WAS someone in his administration vying for the dreaded Law of the Sea Treaty, so it's at least a remote possibility. And either way, there's every chance a president in the not-so-distant future won't have what it takes to stand up to the U.N.

35 posted on 06/02/2004 12:24:25 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: jeremiah
Rush is a blowhard.

The GOP majority in the Senate,is almost nonexistant.

Dems aren't the audience,that O'Reilly attracks,so her blunt observation had little if anything at all to do with rallying the Dem base.

There is abasolutely NO guarantee,that the GOP will hold the majority in both Houses,should Kerfry win.And that bovine excrement,about how Kerry won't be so bad,the GOPers will hold him in check,and whatever else you imagine would be the case,is just so much codswallop,by a poltical naif.The GOPers held Clinton in check,did they?Yeah...and I'm the Queen of England...Victoria Regina! LOL

36 posted on 06/02/2004 12:25:38 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
If you are finding yourself unable,for whatever reason,to see that a second term,for this president is worthwhile,do yourself a favor...get off FR.

Erm... given the number of relentlessly pro-Bush people like yourself here, I would imagine there's no better place to try to become a Bushie than FR.

FWIW, though, I have been taking a vacation from FR. I didn't read it for about a week or two after moving off campus and settling back home. My support for Bush has never wobbled more than in those few days, and this time, unlike usual, FR is not helping to stablize it.

You have reasons for supporting Bush, and I respect that. You have reasons for trying to convince others to support Bush, so keep going. Keep trying to convince me, even. The election's five months away; it's too soon to write me off as a lost cause. But here's some advice:

"Principle"? That's the excuse of cowards and the naive.Please don't use that.

This fallacious argumentum ad hominem abusive will get nowhere. The more people I'm arguing with use obviously fallacious arguments, the less I can listen to them. If you want to persuade me, this is the wrong way.

37 posted on 06/02/2004 12:34:16 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver
So,for you,it's all over? All is lost,forever and ever and ever,no matter what? Back to the old canard of "better Red than dead." Is that it? All is lost,oh woe is me,oh woe is me?

Oh ye of little faith!

Reagan did a whole LOT more "bad" things than just that blanket amnesty.President Bush isn't perfect,but he IS far and away better than Kerry.That you are now quite beyond reason and are no longer able to see that,is a shame.And being some "holy martyr" for some "principles",which are meritless,in the face of a Kerry presidency,is pathetic.

Did you LOVE eight years of Clinton? Then you'll be in hog heaven with EIGHT years of Kerry and terrorists doing GOD only knows what on American soil,the rescinding of the Bush tax cuts and added taxation on top of that,not to mention all kinds of crazy eco-terroristic EOs,higher taxes on gasoline,and all of those lovely,new faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar lefty judges.Having nightmares yet? You should be!

President Bush won't do any of that.But yeah...you're right,you have a bunch of new found PRINCIPLES,and Kerry won't really be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad.:-(

38 posted on 06/02/2004 12:37:48 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Maybe it was 1994.


39 posted on 06/02/2004 12:38:44 AM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: MegaSilver

So let's all kill ourselves rigfht now.Okay?


40 posted on 06/02/2004 12:38:59 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: texastoo

Since you don't even know the dates of when what happened,maybe you aren't all that knowledgeable politically either. Just a wee thought. :-)


41 posted on 06/02/2004 12:40:05 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Okay... one more time:

1. I don't KNOW what I'm going to do yet. I'm not excited about deciding.

2. The prospect of a Kerry presidency MORTIFIES me.

3. I'm trying to decide whether this place won't go downhill regardless of who's president.

4. Your straw men of my arguments are becoming rather tedious. Argue with me, but PLEASE answer my points if you wish to do so.


42 posted on 06/02/2004 12:42:05 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: MegaSilver
I've answered your points,but whether you realize it or not,you're beginning to sound like a morose teen...all doom and gloom and sunk into a blue funk.

I really meant that suggestion...take some time off.Ignore politics until July.Then watch the Dem Convention!

43 posted on 06/02/2004 12:45:40 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: MegaSilver

Go read the thread I pinged you to and then dare to tell me that a Kerry presidency wouldn't be so bad/that re-ecting President Bush sholuldn't ne THE primary goal of your life this year.Go ahead...just do it!


44 posted on 06/02/2004 12:54:22 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Actually, the date is now immaterial as the republican party who is in control has given us bigger government and turned blind eye to the immigration laws. It is no longer a date to be proud of. These are the same republicans who let Clinton get away with anything he wanted.

You are the one who doesn't sound like a republican. You must have been a democrat for years as that is exactly what you sound like forcing your way on everyone. Republicans don't act like you.


45 posted on 06/02/2004 1:02:46 AM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: Robert Lomax

Bump


46 posted on 06/02/2004 1:07:51 AM PDT by AnimalLover
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To: nopardons
Go read the thread I pinged you to and then dare to tell me that a Kerry presidency wouldn't be so bad/that re-ecting President Bush sholuldn't ne THE primary goal of your life this year.Go ahead...just do it!

So Kerry's an appeasing scumbag. Tell me something I don't know.

47 posted on 06/02/2004 1:09:38 AM PDT by MegaSilver (Training a child in red diapers is the cruelest and most unusual form of abuse.)
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To: texastoo
Republicans act like me,dear...they don't "act" like YOU!

I have probably been a Conservative and a Republican far longer than you.I have NEVER been a damned Dem;who you want to help and I don't.

The date is neither moot,nor "immaterial".You don't care enough about facts,to know them.You don't know enough about politics,to realize what's a Republican statement and what isn't.And,FWIW,the GOP majority in the Senate,is so slim,that it hardly counts;not to mention the high numbers of RINOS and the fact that Frist can't do the job he now holds,worth a damn.

You want to throw ad hominems around? First,you'd better have far more political knowledge than you do now and second,you'd best NOT try to play that with me.:-)

48 posted on 06/02/2004 1:12:43 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: MegaSilver
That's NOT the point.

The POINT is his leftover ban the bomb tripe.DISARM AMERICA,BUT ALLOW EVERY ROUGE NATION TO HAVE NUKES. That's a recipe for utter and complete disaster.And YOU yawn at THIS?

49 posted on 06/02/2004 1:14:41 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Since I don't know enough about politics, your opinion, maybe I just won't vote. After all I am not knowledgeable like you.


50 posted on 06/02/2004 1:21:48 AM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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