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Local Bars Still Feeling Some Effects of State Smoking Ban(Should waivers be granted?)
The Saratogian ^ | 06/10/2004 | JEROME BURDI

Posted on 06/10/2004 8:20:25 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay

SARATOGA SPRINGS -- According to a report conducted for bar owners in the state, the workplace smoking ban enacted last year led to the loss of 2,000 industry jobs and millions of dollars in wages.

Ridgewood Economic Associates of New Jersey conducted the study for New York Nightlife Association based in New York City, and the Empire State Restaurant and Tavern Association based in Albany.

The report stated that since the state's Clean Indoor Act took effect on July 24 banning smoking in all workplaces, $28.5 million in wages and salary payments and $37 million in gross state product were lost in the industry.

Ridgewood, which used data from the state Department of Labor, also found that businesses that supply bars have also suffered losses to the tune of 650 jobs, $21.5 million in wages and $34.5 million in gross state product.

Saratoga County has shown little evidence of economic loss, though, according to the state Department of Health, which grants waivers to businesses that show a 15 percent decline in profits since the ban. Only two bars have applied: Connie's Roadhouse in Moreau, which was granted a waiver in April, and the Alley Bar in Saratoga Springs which was denied one.

Janine Stuchin, project coordinator with the Adirondack Tobacco Free Network's southern region base on Phila Street, said she's surprised at the complaints from bar owners.

'I think things are going very well,' she said. 'I continue to hear from the public of their support.'

Even if bars are hurting, she said, it's a public health issue. 'The ban is designed to protect workers from secondhand smoke,' she said.

Suzanne Dormandy, manager Tin & Lint on Caroline Street, said no one has lost their job over the ban, but business is hurting.

'It's supposedly for the employees' health, but now we can't afford health care,' she said.

Dormandy said in a tourist city like Saratoga Springs, when patrons go out for a cigarette, they drift like smoke into another bar.

A bill lingering in the state Legislature, sponsored by Assemblywoman RoAnn Destito, D-Rome, and Sen. Raymond Meier, R-Western, calls for pool halls, bowling alleys and bars (a business where food sale is incidental) to be allowed a separate room with air filtration for smoking.

Assemblyman Roy McDonald, R-Wilton, said he hadn't studied the bill yet, but that something had to be done to equalize waiver granting.

'It's got to be more structured,' he said. 'What do you say to the ones that don't get it?'


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: abarnotahealthclub; cleanair; cleanairact; drycleaningbills; finallycanbreath; leatherskin; nomorepollution; pufflist; righttocleanair; rottingteeth; smellyhair; smoking; smokingban; smokingbans; smokingwaivers; stench; stinkyclothes; worldismyashtry; yellowfingers
Owners of New York Inc., a regional trade group of electronic game and jukebox operators.

June 10, 2004-"For 35 years I have been a provider of electronic games and amusements, mainly to bars, taverns, restaurants, diners and entertainment centers. I have never seen such a drop in business like the one this past year. It is directly tied to the smoking ban.

I talk with other service providers (food, alcohol, cleaning supplies, even state-sponsored "Quick Draw" gambling). When it comes to bars, restaurants and other businesses they serve, they all have the same story: Many have closed.

Now several bills have been introduced to revise New York State's smoking ban, almost a year old. These proposals would exempt bars, taverns, clubs and entertainment centers that primarily do not serve food from the smoking ban and require them to install air-purification filtration systems.

Some kind of reason, common sense and accommodation must be brought to the financial crisis many are finding themselves in." More:

Shaun Levine, executive director of the New York State Conservative Party, was strongly opposed to the bill. Her group is trying to get the state to amend the Clean Indoor Air Act to allow more waivers for businesses that blame the smoking ban for revenue losses.

"I think it's insane that we send our boys to Iraq to defend our country, but they can't have a cigarette," she said Monday. "They can give their life, but they can't have a smoke."

Should bar owners showing "financial hardships" from the smoking ban under the Clean Indoor Act be granted "smoking waivers"?

1 posted on 06/10/2004 8:20:27 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: Gabz; SheLion; CSM

bump


2 posted on 06/10/2004 8:23:07 AM PDT by Mears
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To: Mears

As one employee said,the ban is for employees' health but now she can't afford health care.


3 posted on 06/10/2004 8:24:45 AM PDT by Mears
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To: Mears

Funny, they pass legislation that is supposedly about protecting health and put that protected person out of work. Therefore they become poverty striken and are now esposed to an entirely new set of risks to their health.


4 posted on 06/10/2004 8:28:24 AM PDT by CSM (Liberals may see Saddam's mass graves in Iraq as half-full, but I prefer to see them as half-empty.)
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To: Mears; *puff_list; Just another Joe; Great Dane; Madame Dufarge; Gabz; MeeknMing; steve50; ...

5 posted on 06/10/2004 8:28:26 AM PDT by SheLion (Don Imus is voting for FnKerry!)
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To: CSM

Anyone with a brain knows the bans have NOTHING to do with health and everything to do with control and the bottom line of the pharmaceutical companies annual report.

I wish they'd just ban the selling of cigs and we could all go and find our own bootlegger.It would be easier than all this bullshit!



6 posted on 06/10/2004 8:35:01 AM PDT by Mears
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To: SheLion
Only two bars have applied (Saratoga County): Connie's Roadhouse in Moreau, which was granted a waiver in April, and the Alley Bar in Saratoga Springs which was denied one.

As of May 11th- The Cattaraugus County businesses are: the bar Rough Cuts in South Dayton; Off Track Betting in Olean; the Ischua Fire Department, and the Kinney Hose Company in Weston Mills.

Each waiver application was voted on separately. To qualify for a waiver, businesses either have to show 15 percent loss in revenue or show other financial hardship, such as building a special room for smokers prior to the start of the ban in July(cannot build one after?).

Businesses also have to keep smoke from reaching non-smokers and staff by having a separately ventilated room with no paid workers serving the room.

Rough Cuts has a building for smokers, separated from non-smokers by a walkway, said Jordan in his report. After increasing the size of the fan to vent smoke outdoors and arranging for a stronger self-closing door to the smoking room, the building met the standards for the waiver, said Jordan.

The OTB facility had a separate room with separate ventilation and a self-closing door already in place, said Ellis.

The Ischua Fire Department originally had a separate room for non-smokers pressurized to keep smoke out, said Jordan. The deparment switched the rooms, changing the non-smoking room to a smoking room and venting the smoke outside, then using the larger room for non-smokers instead.

The Kinney Hose Company in Weston Mills already had a separate room set aside for smokers, said Jordan. He added that both fire facilities would have bingo volunteers in the smoking rooms for bingo, but those individuals would all be unpaid. “They have no paid employees in the smoking room,” he said. Under the criteria for the waivers, no paid employees are allowed in smoking rooms. This stems from the original intent of the law: preventing second-hand smoke from getting to workers.

Public Health Director Barbara Hastings said she was “very glad we can move forward with the waivers.” She added that other businesses had applied for waivers, and the health department was waiting for them to complete separate smoking facilities before the department can inspect the buildings.

More

7 posted on 06/10/2004 8:41:44 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: Mears
I wish they'd just ban the selling of cigs

Will never happen. Government is more addicted to tax revenue from cigs than smokers are to cigs.

8 posted on 06/10/2004 8:43:21 AM PDT by Phantom Lord (Distributor of Pain, Your Loss Becomes My Gain)
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To: Phantom Lord

The Government is not only addicted to the taxes they receive from cigarettes they are also addicted to their jobs, which in turn means "their power"...they listen to the whining liberals and want to "protect" everyone...in all actuality they only protect themselves and their power trips. They have yet to learn you can't sit on both sides of the fence but they keep trying! If it were up to me I'd run them all out of office, have about had it with their overprotectiveness and HAVE had it with the dang liberals! Last I knew smoking cigarettes wasn't against the law, if the liberals have their way it will be though, then what will the jackasses who make laws do for tax revenues?


9 posted on 06/10/2004 9:02:45 AM PDT by pistolpackinannie
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To: fight_truth_decay
Even if bars are hurting, she said, it's a public health issue

Ah yes, let them eat cake.

See, Janine Stuchin, project coordinator with the Adirondack Tobacco Free Network's southern region base, has her rice bowl, so who cares about the incomes of the little pipples she and her fellow Nazis are tanking?

10 posted on 06/10/2004 9:05:10 AM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: CSM
Funny, they pass legislation that is supposedly about protecting health and put that protected person out of work. Therefore they become poverty striken and are now esposed to an entirely new set of risks to their health.

But don't you see? As with all liberals it's their intentions that count.

11 posted on 06/10/2004 9:09:02 AM PDT by yankeedame ("Born with the gift of laughter & a sense that the world was mad.")
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To: CSM

Further, a vast majority of New Yorkers have said in recent polls that they are happy with the new law. One survey shows that many regular restaurantgoers see a smoke-free environment as an attraction.

The early evidence, however, is that many businesses are unharmed. In fact, though rumors swirl in an environment where every bit of news is trumpeted by the side it favors, a reporter could not verify that one bar, restaurant or club, of the more than 20,000 in the city, had closed solely because of the smoking ban.

The ban does not appear to have deterred businesses from opening in New York City. The New York State Liquor Authority, which issues licenses to establishments that serve alcohol, received 127 applications from city businesses last month, compared to 126 in November 2002. The number of licenses granted by the authority in that same period rose to 106 last month, from 75 the year before.

The city's Health Department, which enforces the smoking ban, has also analyzed monthly employment numbers and found no overall job loss in the food service and drinking industry. Critics have countered that such findings are politically motivated, and cannot show when establishments cut back shifts and absorb revenue losses. But many restaurants and bars refuse to divulge their finances, making it difficult to gauge the validity of their complaints.

Polls back the city's contention that New Yorkers have welcomed the ban. A New York Times poll in June showed that 56 percent of the 962 respondents said they approved of the smoking ban. A Quinnipiac University poll in October found that 62 percent supported the ban.

Tim Zagat, the publisher of restaurant guides, surveyed more than 29,000 of his volunteer reviewers this year and found that 96 percent said they would eat out as much, if not more, with the smoking ban. Only 4 percent said they would eat out less. "I don't care how you cut it," Mr. Zagat said. "I think it's long-term good for


12 posted on 06/10/2004 9:17:49 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA

"But many restaurants and bars refuse to divulge their finances, making it difficult to gauge the validity of their complaints."

Great to see you post in support of the philosophy that the government should have access to all information we posess.

"Polls back the city's contention that New Yorkers have welcomed the ban."

Ah, yes, government via polls. Where else have we seen this before?


13 posted on 06/10/2004 9:28:27 AM PDT by CSM (Liberals may see Saddam's mass graves in Iraq as half-full, but I prefer to see them as half-empty.)
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To: CSM

Hmmm. Those restaurants that are complaining about lost revenues are refusing to provide data to support their claims. And another poster said it was a conspiracy by the liberal media to NOT report that data in their papers. hmmm.


14 posted on 06/10/2004 9:31:45 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: CSM
"The city's Health Department, which enforces the smoking ban, has also analyzed monthly employment numbers and found no overall job loss in the food service and drinking industry."

Throws out the claim by a previous poster that jobs were lost.

15 posted on 06/10/2004 9:32:47 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: CSM
Ah, yes, government via polls. Where else have we seen this before?

The laws were not enacted on polls. But the post-enactment polls confirm that the majority agree with the decision.

16 posted on 06/10/2004 9:35:09 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: CSM
Great to see you post in support of the philosophy that the government should have access to all information we posess.

You twist everything. All I am saying is that if you claim damages, you should prove your damages. Of course proving anything goes completely against the pro-smoker agenda.

17 posted on 06/10/2004 9:36:52 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
Owners of New York Inc., a regional trade group of electronic game and jukebox operators. June 10, 2004-"For 35 years I have been a provider of electronic games and amusements, mainly to bars, taverns, restaurants, diners and entertainment centers. I have never seen such a drop in business like the one this past year. It is directly tied to the smoking ban

The city's Health Department, which enforces the smoking ban, has also analyzed monthly employment numbers and found no overall job loss in the food service and drinking industry

hmmmmm ..who do you believe? Who is more politically motivated? ;)

18 posted on 06/10/2004 9:39:44 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: cinFLA; SheLion
Every company's greatest assets are its customers, because without customers there is no company.

- Michael LeBoeuf Businesses Harmed by Smoking Bans (mostly NY covered) - CHART

Anti-smoking organizations insist that bans are somehow good for people in hospitality businesses. This chart shows otherwise. These businesses have lost a significant portion of their business as a direct result of smoking bans. Many are closed. Many that are still open have told us they doubt they'll survive much longer.

Most of this information comes directly from businesses that have contacted me or my colleagues. Some comes from newspaper articles. Blank spaces in the chart represent data that is unavailable, or that doesn't apply. (For instance, a distributor doesn't receive tips, and many owner-operators of small taverns don't have any employees other than themselves and family members.)

Last Update: Thursday, June 03, 2004
http://www.davehitt.com/facts/badforbiz.html

Other states posted:Black Duck Lounge Tavern
70% Houlton ME
"I've never seen it like this before. It's like all the customers just disappeared."

19 posted on 06/10/2004 9:48:54 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: Mears

...the bans have NOTHING to do with health and everything to do with control...

Exactly!

I might add that the bans are but one of hundreds of look-good-work that politicians and bureaucrats engage in to give the illusion that they're earning a paycheck.

How is it that individuals and society prospered and increased prosperity for years and decades prior to last years laws and this years laws? How is it that people and society can flourish without next years laws?

20 posted on 06/10/2004 9:50:06 AM PDT by Zon
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Coldspring Volunteer Fire Dept. Tavern 50% 75% 1 Steamburg NY

"The fire department owns the bar. Money from the bar buys equipment for the fire department. The income has been cut in half. This money buys new ambulances, trucks, gear ect. Remember, this all volunteer. Without the bar money we are going to have to rely on the town for revenue. You may lose your house or even someone's life without the money for the equipment..."

pulled from the chart mentioned above..


21 posted on 06/10/2004 9:52:11 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: fight_truth_decay
A property owner can refuse access to any person he chooses for any reason or no reason. Not even government officials, such as law enforcement officers can trespass on a person's property. Unless invited onto the property by the owner they must obtain a valid search warrant. No person is forced to enter another person's property, for to apply force would be akin to kidnapping. No person can force a property/business owner to hire them.

A government that is so mistrusted that it requires a search warrant to enter a property is among the worst to decide that strangers must be given access to a person's property/business. No person is forced to breath smoke for they are at all times free to walk out the door.

22 posted on 06/10/2004 9:56:46 AM PDT by Zon
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To: cinFLA

The New York Night Life Association is armed with a petition addressed to Gov. Pataki, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, and Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno signed by 40,000 from bar patrons and workers - one-quarter from New York City - asking that smoking be permitted in air-filtered bars.

Almost a year after Mayor Bloomberg's smoking ban went into effect on July 24, 2003, New York City bars are still feeling the economic burn.

"The city's bars lose on average an estimated 15 to 19 percent in revenues because of the ban," said Brian Nolan, executive director of United Restaurant & Tavern Owners of New York, Inc.

Interviews with more than a dozen bar owners and managers conducted by The Post show the revenue loss is often even more extreme.

The $3,500 gizmo - so named because it cleans 1,000 cubic feet of air per minute - can eliminate 99 percent of cigarette smoke in a matter of minutes.

Manufactured by Illinois company Airistar(hmm wonder if they are a public company), it's equipped with wheels for mobility and can blend into the background of a bar as a table. http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/24153.htm

"These state-of-the-art filters make room air cleaner than what you breathe outside," New York Night Life Association spokesman Basil Anastassiou said after a recent demonstration in the office of Assemblywoman RoAnn Destito (D-Rome). State Sen. Raymond Meier (R-Western) is also sponsoring a similar bill


23 posted on 06/10/2004 9:57:03 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: fight_truth_decay
Here's another one of many from the same chart:
Cork and Bottle Tavern Closed 100% 100% Potville NY
Located near the PA border, this was literally a Mom and Pop business, run by a couple with no employees to "protect."

Businesses harmed by smoking Bans - The Facts on second hand smoke

24 posted on 06/10/2004 10:11:55 AM PDT by Zon
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To: yall


25 posted on 06/10/2004 10:14:59 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP (Call me the Will Rogers voter: I never met a Democrat I didn't like - to vote OUT OF POWER !)
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To: fight_truth_decay
The Point is the government violating private property rights and individual rights. While smoke filters are good it is wrong for the government to subsidize the smoke-filter industry via the government's laws and regulations that violate private property rights and individual rights.
26 posted on 06/10/2004 10:18:13 AM PDT by Zon
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To: fight_truth_decay
Last Update: Thursday, June 03, 2004 http://www.davehitt.com/facts/badforbiz.html

OMG! This list is getting HUGE! What a pitiful situation for all these business's to be in.

A VERY large list there, and I am afraid that a lot more are going to follow. Pity!

27 posted on 06/10/2004 10:20:35 AM PDT by SheLion (Don Imus is voting for FnKerry!)
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To: fight_truth_decay

As if these clowns care.

They're just ecstatic to see bars start closing. That's their goal, the ban is a nice trojan horse.

Even some nonsmokers are waking up to the fact.

As much as I can, I boycott them, one individual won't make much of a difference and once our statewide ban goes thru, it'll all be moot anyway.


28 posted on 06/10/2004 10:25:24 AM PDT by swarthyguy
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To: Zon

Society prospered without those laws because adults were treated like adults.

Parents were also considered the best people to raise and instill values in their own children.

Those seem to be radical ideas these days.


29 posted on 06/10/2004 10:37:42 AM PDT by Mears
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To: SheLion

The list might appear long now, but many do not even know about this group collecting data...is only a sampling to date.


30 posted on 06/10/2004 10:45:15 AM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: fight_truth_decay
The list might appear long now, but many do not even know about this group collecting data...is only a sampling to date.

Check out my one page about the smoking bans and business closures. Might be something there you or "the group" could add to The Facts.

Smoking Bans Bad For Business

31 posted on 06/10/2004 11:05:08 AM PDT by SheLion (Don Imus is voting for FnKerry!)
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To: SheLion; fight_truth_decay

I just got back from being in Delaware......and was totally shocked on my ride home to see one of the long time establishments shuttered with not only a for sale sign out from.....but a sign announcing the auction of the contents.

This place was in business for 50 years......just a couple of miles from the maryland line....no one can tell me that the Delaware smoking ban had no hand in the closing of this place.


32 posted on 06/10/2004 2:08:17 PM PDT by Gabz (RIP President Ronald W. Reagan 1911-2004)
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To: Gabz
This place was in business for 50 years......just a couple of miles from the maryland line....no one can tell me that the Delaware smoking ban had no hand in the closing of this place.

Oh sure! And the anti's are telling the business owner's they will be rolling with revenue when the smoker's are removed. Yea, right! :(

Can't they sue for "breach of contract?" Something should be done about this!

33 posted on 06/10/2004 4:06:58 PM PDT by SheLion (Don Imus is voting for FnKerry!)
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To: SheLion

This is the 6 or 7th place I know of personally that either has closed it's doors or has been sold because of the ban....and none of them fall in to the category of new businesses failures.

And if I am personally aware of that many - you can figure there are a whole lot more.


34 posted on 06/10/2004 4:36:56 PM PDT by Gabz (RIP President Ronald W. Reagan 1911-2004)
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To: Gabz
p>>The early evidence, however, is that many businesses are unharmed.
> In fact, though rumors swirl in an environment where every bit of news
> is trumpeted by the side it favors, a reporter could not verify that one bar,
> restaurant or club, of the more than 20,000 in the city, had closed solely
> because of the smoking ban.

That reporter is either lazy, or lying, or both.

I've been keeping an unoffical list of place that have been harmed, many to the point of closing, beucase of the ban. If this so called journalist had spent five minutes on Google, he would have found it here. Note how many of the closed bars are in NYC, including one that had been in business for thirty years, and another that had been around for more than a century. They survied prohibiton, but couldn't survive the nicotine nannies.

Thanks, BTW, to the folks who are posting things from that list. Please keep doing that - that's exaclty what it's for.

>"The city's Health Department, which enforces the smoking ban,
> has also analyzed monthly employment numbers and found no
> overall job loss in the food service and drinking industry."

>Throws out the claim by a previous poster that jobs were lost.

The Health Department, which created the ban, claims that there was no ill effect from it. How stupid would someone have to be to consider them a credible source?

(That's a rehetorical question.)

(That means you're not supposed to answer it.)

>OMG! This list is getting HUGE! What a pitiful situation for all these business's to be in.

>A VERY large list there, and I am afraid that a lot more are going to follow. Pity!

And I'm just one guy who put out a request saying "send me info." This is not anything offcial, or anywhere close to comprehsnive, but the list grows by one - three entries every day. (I don't update it that often, though - I put a new one up every couple of weeks.)

35 posted on 06/10/2004 9:59:51 PM PDT by Hittman
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