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UKIP set to grab 20% in Euro poll (REJECTING THE EU UPDATE)
The Sunday Times ^ | June 13, 2004 | David Cracknell and David Smith

Posted on 06/13/2004 3:41:09 AM PDT by MadIvan

THE UK Independence Party has won the support of one in five British voters in the European elections and is set to gain four times as many MEPs, senior party figures predicted last night.

They forecast that the party, which wants to pull out of the European Union, has captured 20% of the vote, boosting their strength in the European parliament from three to at least 12 seats. The result would put it in third place just behind Labour, which is expected to poll only a few per cent more, and ahead of the Liberal Democrats.

While the Tories are expected to be the overall winners, with a share of the vote of just below 30%, Michael Howard will have done worse than William Hague five years ago.

“I think 20% is a realistic figure for us,” said Nigel Farage, one of the UKIP’s three MEPs. “And in some areas we’ll have done a lot better. Twelve seats is a very realistic prospect.”

Although the vote was on Thursday, the same day as the local elections, the results cannot be announced before 9pm tonight when voting booths close in the rest of the Europe.

The UKIP has recently won the support of Robert Kilroy-Silk and Joan Collins.

Both Tony Blair and Howard were facing recriminations from senior figures in their parties last night over the “super Thursday” elections.

Meanwhile, Gordon Brown has told colleagues he fears that Blair will this week be forced to surrender Britain’s right of veto over tax as part of a deal to secure the new European constitution.

The chancellor has told the prime minister that he should refuse to sign up to the treaty at this week’s summit in Brussels if provisions to “co-ordinate” economic policies remain.

Brown’s allies say the chancellor is “prepared to die in a ditch” before seeing a constitution that allows any tax harmonisation via the back door.

He is determined to show that Labour is not a soft touch on Europe, as the main political parties brace themselves for a strong showing by UKIP when the results of the European elections are announced tonight.

Howard is under pressure because the results are expected to reveal that the UKIP’s success has come from a significant chunk of would-be Tory voters.

Eric Forth, Conservative MP for Bromley and Chislehurst, said: “The leadership is going to have to think very carefully about how we respond to this. There is a serious groundswell of opinion in this country that the UKIP seems to represent better than anyone else.”

The issue of Britain’s future in Europe will dominate this week as Blair tries to draw a line under his drubbing and succeed in securing a landmark deal on the EU constitution.

Brown has been alarmed by passages in it that will require European countries to “co- ordinate” their economic policies, call for social and economic “cohesion” and establish European Union “competence” over national economies.

Brown, who successfully fought off an EU drive to harmonise savings taxes, is said to be “incensed” by suggestions that Britain should soften its opposition to the constitution.

He is backed by business. “If we give in on any aspect of tax harmonisation we would see it as the thin end of the wedge,” said Digby Jones, director-general of the CBI. “We feel very strongly about this. If Tony Blair does not get agreement on this, he should walk away.”

Yesterday Michael Meacher, Labour’s former environment minister, added to the pressure on Blair by saying: “After these election results, Tony Blair will only regain the confidence of voters if he can show that he is willing to listen to his party and to the electorate and changes course.”


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: brussels; election; eu; europe; rejection; ukip
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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All in all, the UK is turning around and facing the EU with a snarl. Lovely.

You can read more about the UKIP here:

The UK Independence Party
The 5 Essential Freedoms

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 06/13/2004 3:41:10 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: Denver Ditdat; Judith Anne; Desdemona; alnick; knews_hound; faithincowboys; hillary's_fat_a**; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 06/13/2004 3:41:30 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: MadIvan
The UKIP has recently won the support of Robert Kilroy-Silk and Joan Collins.

And Simon Cowell, too, I understand (from The Telegraph).

3 posted on 06/13/2004 3:45:06 AM PDT by BlessedBeGod ('I went to Vietnam, yada yada yada, I want to be President...")
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To: MadIvan

The article should say England, not Britain. Ukip has had no success in Scotland.


4 posted on 06/13/2004 3:45:52 AM PDT by Carcharodon
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To: Carcharodon
The UKIP needs to hit Scotland harder in my opinion - the SNP is the most pro-European party in the EU. That's a vulnerability it has yet to exploit - that Nationalists will sell Scotland up the river to Brussels, whereas the UKIP won't.

Regards, Ivan

5 posted on 06/13/2004 3:47:14 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: MadIvan

Of course the EU Socialists will claim Bush has used the Dangerous American Brain Ray Machine on innocent Britains!


6 posted on 06/13/2004 3:47:44 AM PDT by Dallas59
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To: Dallas59
Of course the EU Socialists will claim Bush has used the Dangerous American Brain Ray Machine on innocent Britains!

And me without my tin foil beanie. :)

Regards, Ivan

7 posted on 06/13/2004 3:48:44 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: MadIvan

The SNP are actually rather anti Europe, especially in regards to the Common Fisheries Policy. They did have a vision of becoming independent and scumming off loadsafunds like the Irish did but see now that's a non-starter.

Anyway, Kilroy-Silk would be beaten senseless if he appeared up ae Glesgae strits.


8 posted on 06/13/2004 3:51:23 AM PDT by Carcharodon
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To: MadIvan

Interesting how a true multi-party system makes as few as 20% of voters a powerful bloc who have a voice in guiding their nation.


9 posted on 06/13/2004 3:52:48 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter (06/07/04 - 1000 days since 09/11/01)
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To: Carcharodon
The last I heard Alex Salmond speak (and yes, I know he's no longer leader), he was sounding like he was negotiating the terms of surrender to Brussels. In any event, I doubt the SNP is going to take quite the stand the UKIP would - that is definitely a difference.

And I agree, there needs to be a Scottish representative of the UKIP campaigning in Scotland.

Regards, Ivan

10 posted on 06/13/2004 3:53:49 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: Straight Vermonter
The UK used to be a two party system...we appear to be breaking out of that by stages. It is fair to say, and the newspapers have repeated it ad nauseam, that we are a 3 party system (Labour, Tories, Lib Dems). I see no particular harm in this. Let's have a system by which we are not bound by Eeny or Meeny - let's have genuine ideological differences and a competition of ideas.

Regards, Ivan

11 posted on 06/13/2004 3:55:58 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: MadIvan

The Scottish people are very well aware of the pro - Europe stance of the SNP. The Scottish people are generally much more pro EU than the English


12 posted on 06/13/2004 3:57:44 AM PDT by weegie
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To: MadIvan; KangarooJacqui; Piefloater; Atlantic Friend; Michael81Dus; ItsonlikeDonkeyKong

Most Europeans I know, including some Irish, are saying that the EU is a great idea and will just make everything easier. When I reveal my apprehension about loss of sovereignty they thumb their noses and say that I'm talking about Empire. It isn't all about convenience, though, is it? There are serious problems with the constitution, centralizing of authority, loss of true independence, and a homogenizing of culture coming with the EU. I'm interesting to hear your thoughts, MI. And it's great to see you back online. FR is all the better with you participating.


13 posted on 06/13/2004 4:19:03 AM PDT by risk ("They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society." --MT)
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To: MadIvan

Remember Ivan, that here in the US our political views are extremely polarized - basically you're either "with us or against us" - with the Democrats being against all that our nation was founded upon.

Also, since we aren't a Parliamentary system, having to form coalitions in order to secure the top leadership position is unheard of here. Until this election, I too thought of Britain as having two parties: Labour and Torie. I'd hate to see your system there devolve into one such as Russia's with so many parties that keeping track of them would be a full time job.

We all wish you the best of luck at staying out of the damned EU - by fully assimilating into that one world government test, your nation will learn what our founders meant about "taxation without representation". Likewise they'll understand why America chose revolution over the King's rule.


14 posted on 06/13/2004 4:25:04 AM PDT by datura (Battlefield justice is what our enemies deserve. If you win, you live. If you lose, you die.)
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To: MadIvan

If they are unable to report poll results, how is it that they are allowed to report 'forecasts'.....or are they like our own media?


15 posted on 06/13/2004 4:31:00 AM PDT by OldFriend (LOSERS quit when they are tired/WINNERS quit when they have won)
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To: OldFriend
If they are unable to report poll results, how is it that they are allowed to report 'forecasts'.....or are they like our own media?

Perhaps it's like a line from the Bard, "a custom more honoured in the breach than the observance." ;)

Regards, Ivan

16 posted on 06/13/2004 4:32:20 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: MadIvan
The last I heard Alex Salmond speak (and yes, I know he's no longer leader), he was sounding like he was negotiating the terms of surrender to Brussels.

Why would anyone surrender to Brussels?
17 posted on 06/13/2004 4:42:15 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: risk
Most Europeans I know, including some Irish, are saying that the EU is a great idea and will just make everything easier. When I reveal my apprehension about loss of sovereignty they thumb their noses and say that I'm talking about Empire. It isn't all about convenience, though, is it?

That's a little backwards isn't it.
18 posted on 06/13/2004 4:43:51 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
Why would anyone surrender to Brussels?

Salmond thinks Scotland will get loads of money in terms of EU structural funds.

Regards, Ivan

19 posted on 06/13/2004 4:44:15 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: MadIvan
Salmond thinks Scotland will get loads of money in terms of EU structural funds.

And The Hague is jut going to send cash? Be realistic about who's running the show over there and hope everyone survives when the next European ground war starts.
20 posted on 06/13/2004 4:46:32 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
That's a little backwards isn't it.

No, there's a sense of resentment in Ireland toward Great Britain. One would think they'd be over it by now, but remember Ireland was neutral in WWII and on Germany's side in WWI. And the Franco-German alliance is only all too happy to agree: British imperial power must be restrained.

I don't see this attitude as positive for the Welsh, the Scots, or the Irish. But then again, I think they won their wars for independence here in America.

21 posted on 06/13/2004 4:48:52 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk

The Irish don't get over grudges that easily. Now, I understand.


22 posted on 06/13/2004 4:51:40 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona

They used to have Catholicism in common with France. There is none of that now. The rest of Great Britain will eventually find out that having spats with their family was preferable to the marxist rule of their EU taskmasters. (But many of them think communism is harmless when you remove the murdering dictators... who always seem to crop up from "nowhere.")


23 posted on 06/13/2004 4:54:44 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk

Ireland was on The German side in WW1?!?!?!

Given that it was still British at the time and sent over a hundred thousands of soldiers to fight under the Union Jack then this is possibly the most ill informed post I have seen here yet


24 posted on 06/13/2004 5:05:42 AM PDT by weegie
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To: weegie
Ireland was on The German side in WW1?!?!?!

Given that it was still British at the time and sent over a hundred thousands of soldiers to fight under the Union Jack then this is possibly the most ill informed post I have seen here yet

Actually, ambiguous. The Ulster Protestants of course were the most British of the British. It is my understanding that they have always accounted for a preponderance of British army officers in the way that Dixie does in our army. As for the South, the British in WW1 never dared impose conscription on Ireland.

25 posted on 06/13/2004 6:28:32 AM PDT by Sam the Sham
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To: MadIvan
Twenty percent for the UKIP would be a great result.

It may well have far reaching effects on the European politics in general. The 17-18th June the leaders of the EU nations are convening to try and get an agreement on the European "Constitution".

With Blair already having promised a referendum, and a dismal result for Labour and other eu-philes in the EU elections, even the eurocrats will find it impossible to find a compromise ("weasel wording") that would allow Blair to win a referendum.

If Britain is seen to say no, that will add increased impetus to skeptics in other countries. Denmark will have a referendum and they will most likely vote a resounding no. Also, the Dutch are going to have referendum and it is not at all certain that they will accept a further devolution of powers to the EU. There are other countries as well (Poland, the Czechs come to mind) where a referendum would result in no.

So, as I see it the eucrates have two possibilities; either scrap the constitution, but that would lead to increased call for a repeal of the acquis communitaire (ie more power to the nations), or they try to force through a constitution against the will of the peoples in many EU nations. That will lead to a political crisis, which may end up with a core EU, probably consisting of France, Germany, Belgium, and maybe Luxembourg and Italy. The rest of the countries will be loosely associated in a some kind of looser connection like Norway and Switzerland are now.

I also hope this will help the eu-skeptics in the Tory party to gain the upper hand - and to reintroduce free market thinking and belief in Britain in the Tory party.

No more "Heaths" or "Majors", please.

ScaniaBoy
26 posted on 06/13/2004 6:39:19 AM PDT by ScaniaBoy (Part of the Right Wing Research & Attack Machine)
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To: Sam the Sham
Not ambiguous at all. The idea that the Irish "fought on the German side" is patent nonsense.

Ireland was at the time part of Britain. It sent representatives to the London Parliament. Conscription was not imposed in either the north or south.


In WWII when The Republic was neutral the Brits still did not impose conscription on Northern Ireland (Ulster). Interestingly 5 out of the 6 Victoria Crosses awarded to Irishmen in that war were to volunteers from the Irish Republic.
27 posted on 06/13/2004 6:48:03 AM PDT by weegie
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To: weegie

I love this site. I learn so much here that I can never learn by clicking through the net..


28 posted on 06/13/2004 7:48:29 AM PDT by FreeManWhoCan ((!Kerry es una CHANQLETA! The kind that goes between the big stinky toe!))
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To: FreeManWhoCan; MadIvan

Me too. This is fascinating.

MI, thanks for the ping.


29 posted on 06/13/2004 7:55:38 AM PDT by Judith Anne ("The convictions that shaped the president began to shape the times..." President G.W. Bush)
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To: Carcharodon

I wouldn't be so sure... because there were no local authority elections here on Thursday, it's difficult to judge, but a lot of Scots are out for revenge after the EU fisheries policy, Not to mention the UKIPs promise to reform Holyrood.


30 posted on 06/13/2004 8:10:56 AM PDT by I-spy-guy
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To: MadIvan

There already is and with the promise to reform Holyrood, i think (and hope) that the UKIP will do well up here.

As for the SNP, they're going to lose most of their seats next election. They aren't trusted, they are no longer liked and the debacle in Holyrood has disgusted almost everyone North of the border.


31 posted on 06/13/2004 8:15:53 AM PDT by I-spy-guy
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To: MadIvan
Ivan forgive me for having to ask but I have had a difficult time discerning exactly what this all means to Conservatives.

What is the big pictures here?
Have 'Conservatives' [I don't know the party affiliations] taken power?
Is everything basically the same with some small shifts?

What's really going on here?
32 posted on 06/13/2004 9:26:39 AM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
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To: MadIvan
"...we are a 3 party system (Labour, Tories, Lib Dems). I see no particular harm in this. "

I do.
It is out of balance. They need a '[true]Christian/Conservative Right'. Labour [=US Democrats] and Liberals [=Howard Dean/Al Gore democrats] are still both Liberals one is just further left than the other.

33 posted on 06/13/2004 9:31:37 AM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
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To: MadIvan
I've never completely understood the structure of the U.K. The best I can tell, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England are something equivalent to our various US states, but every now and then something comes up that indicates more autonomy.

I don't get it.

34 posted on 06/13/2004 9:39:43 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
I've never completely understood the structure of the U.K. The best I can tell, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England are something equivalent to our various US states, but every now and then something comes up that indicates more autonomy.

That probably is the best way to describe it. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as countries form the United Kingdom of Great Britain [England, Wales and Scotland] and Northern Ireland. So the four countries form the nation state. England is the largest, with about 51 million people, then Scotland, with around 5 million people. Wales has about 3 million people, and Northern Ireland has about 1.5 million people.

Only three of the countries have their own legislatures; Scotland has the Scottish Parliament, Wales has the National Assembly for Wales, and Northern Ireland has the Northern Ireland Assembly (currently suspended due to the political problems their). The equivalent to a Governor in the United States is the "First Minister". The United Kingdom Parliament in Westminster, London, which Tony Blair speaks at Question Time every week in the House of Commons, is equivalent to the Congress. Because England does not have its own legislature or First Minister, matters for England are handled by the UK parliament.

35 posted on 06/13/2004 10:08:52 AM PDT by gary_b_UK
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To: VaBthang4
It means several things...the Conservative Party has recovered substantially. Think of it in these terms - if you had a congressional midterm election and most of the states went Republican rather than Democrat. That's not a precise comparison, but similar in implications for the ruling party.

At the same time, the UKIP did well. Which means that the Conservatives could have done even better if they found some way to appeal to the same audience. In any event, this is a country where approximately half the votes went to conservative parties - this is a large change from the last couple of general elections where Labour won.

Regards, Ivan

36 posted on 06/13/2004 11:26:54 AM PDT by MadIvan (Ronald Reagan - proof positive that one man can indeed change the world.)
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To: gary_b_UK

Thank you for that explanation. I sincerely appreciate it.


37 posted on 06/13/2004 11:56:12 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: risk
As far as I can recall, the Irish rejected the reformulated Treaty of Nice a few years back. Of course, the inveterately corrupt and undemocratic barons who run the place just couldn't take no for an answer.

If they do ever accede to joining the Euro and ditching the Dollar, than I don't think it will ever be because of a genuine shift in public opinion. Rather, it will be because they were not given a genuine alternative.

38 posted on 06/13/2004 2:01:38 PM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid ("Pfft. You ain't no Slappy White, ya' know?")
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To: weegie
Thanks for the correction. If I had looked at a couple of links, Home Rule and Ireland, and WWI and Ireland (BBC) before posting, I wouldn't have been so ignorant! I must have taken someone's comments about the 1916 Easter Rising out of context. There was an anti-war sentiment, however (see Soldiers return at the BBC site).
39 posted on 06/13/2004 2:27:08 PM PDT by risk
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To: weegie; risk

The Scottish people are very well aware of the pro - Europe stance of the SNP. The Scottish people are generally much more pro EU than the English

Frankly that statement is scary, but it fits a historically dominant Scottish idea (but dormant in the days of the Empire) that it felt more in soldarity with france than England. Now isn't it interesting that the descendents of Scottish migrants to America today are the most strident anti-frogs? (most Americans have tints of Scottish ancestry one way or another, but it was the South with particularly strong Scottish ties)

But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure. I can't figure out how today's relativist, pacifist, and wimpy socialist Euros will come out and support someone in which the Bible says will trust in nothing but only in materials and military prowness?

40 posted on 06/13/2004 3:22:58 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: risk; MadIvan

Interesting you should ping me to this, risk (my great-grandparents were Irish). I think of myself as far more American than British (no offence, Ivan) - DESPITE what persists on the top left-hand corner of my national flag (the Union Jack, for those not aware).

Relatives of mine who HAVE been to the UK, though, have been much incensed that the customs and immigration lines at Heathrow have been replaced by signs saying "EU and UK passports only" "and "others", whereas it used to be "UK and Commonwealth passport holders" and "others". Seems having the Queen on the back of your coins doesn't mean anything these days. Vive la Republic Australienne (or at least do what Canada did in the sixties and change that bloody flag!)


41 posted on 06/13/2004 3:25:41 PM PDT by KangarooJacqui ("Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.")
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To: MadIvan

Okay... thanks. I grew tired of trying to discern what was actually happening through a cloud of media spin and excuse making.

What if any real impact will all of this have on England first and then secondly, Europe and the EUtopian dream?


42 posted on 06/13/2004 3:31:14 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
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To: MadIvan
At the same time, the UKIP did well. Which means that the Conservatives could have done even better if they found some way to appeal to the same audience. In any event, this is a country where approximately half the votes went to conservative parties - this is a large change from the last couple of general elections where Labour won.

So, does this look like a movement that can be sustained or is this a one-election showing of unhappiness.
43 posted on 06/13/2004 3:34:34 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: KangarooJacqui

It's scary isn't it? From what we read here and some other Euro thread (believe it or not, I have noticed not fewer than 10 Euro posters active on this board), there are lots of pro-EU British people when you could say there weren't even half of them around when Thatcher was the British PM. The way I see it, Scotland is hopeless, Wales is at the crossroads, and even England itself is on shaky grounds now. I have an uneasy feeling that the first nail to the coffin of the historically great British nation is already there and Britain is on its way to become an English-speaking Belgium or Germany.

I agree: time to become a republic (for NZ as well, although I will say no thanks to the Helen Clark model) and change that flag!


44 posted on 06/13/2004 3:35:21 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: NZerFromHK

You can have a big Kiwi on your flag, and we'll have a Kangaroo with the Southen Cross in the left hand corner in ours. :-)

I'm no graphic designer but I'm sure after a couple of hours messing about on PaintShopPro, I could come up with something better than that execrable Union Jack.


45 posted on 06/13/2004 3:40:56 PM PDT by KangarooJacqui ("Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.")
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To: NZerFromHK
"But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure. I can't figure out how today's relativist, pacifist, and wimpy socialist Euros will come out and support someone in which the Bible says will trust in nothing but only in materials and military prowness?"

Oh that's easy. The Bible [or those particular scriptures] is simply swept aside as a fairy tale or a scenario that has long ago passed us all.

A. There is no God [save Man himself].
B. There is no Heaven or Hell [save tolerant heaven and intolerant hell].
B. The only serious religion is that of politics.

2 Timothy 3;

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them...

...always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth. Men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

46 posted on 06/13/2004 3:41:32 PM PDT by VaBthang4 ("He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep")
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To: VaBthang4

Even though many think Americans fit the model the most (I admit many Americans are obsessed with money and sin a lot like murder, abortion, and porns), I think what Paul says seem to be literally describing the current state of Europe and Britain:

lovers of themselves - pacifism, chickening out, appeasement of Islam

money - both the traditional materialism and consumerism we know and the newer form of welfare queen mentality

boastful - "We will regain our place as the premier powerdriver of history and the US domination of world economies is over"

proud - see boastful

abusive - crime rate in major European cities is up substantially from 1996. London now has more crimes per capita than New York City.

disobedient to their parents - France. 2003. Heat waves. More than 10,000 died, mainly retired elderly people.

ungrateful - WWII. Response of Europeans today.

unholy - only 5% of Dutch people could be classified as Christians using Bible standards (and if you include Catholics there - using a more biblical criteria the figure would be 2.5%)

without love - divorce rate

unforgiving - see the "my rights" mentality rampant in Britain

slanderous - British tabloids

without self-control - British teenagers are reported to be even more vulgar in behaviours on average than their American counterparts.

brutal - violent crime

treacherous - German and French corporate scandals.

rash - "now, now, now! I want this now!'

conceited - British Labour and Lib Democrat, and their Dutch counterparts on EU constitutions

lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - Euro 2004. European Championships League. Italian Serie A soccer.

Having a form of godliness but denying its power - socialism tries to "enforce kindness" in the social gospel understanding of Jesus's acts. while it managed to fool many thinking it as compassionate, it breeds far more cold hearts, welfare delinquents, than the free market system.

Need to say more? ;-)


47 posted on 06/13/2004 4:17:34 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: KangarooJacqui; MadIvan; Cincinatus' Wife
Interesting you should ping me to this, risk (my great-grandparents were Irish).

That's nice, although I pinged you because I figured liberty-minded Aussies ought to weigh in on the EU issue.

The argument I hear from GB, Ireland, and commonwealth citizens is that they fear their economies will collapse if they don't participate in the EU. Is that any reason? "We have to give up a degree of our self-rule because we can't maintain our own economic viability alone." That sounds like collectivism to me.

48 posted on 06/13/2004 6:49:18 PM PDT by risk
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To: KangarooJacqui

49 posted on 06/13/2004 6:51:03 PM PDT by cyborg
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To: VaBthang4; NZerFromHK; yonif; weegie; blam; counterpunch; ItsonlikeDonkeyKong; Atlantic Friend; ...
But here's a puzzle. we all know the Bible prophesises that before Jesus returns, there will be a revived Roman Empire which will come out of Europe or Europe-Mediterrenean or the West-Mediterrenean and the Antichrist will come out of this structure.

A civilization's eschatology is fascinating. Civilizations do end. As far as I've seen, most have a religious or mystical explanation for where they arose and where they are going. Often the story ends with their own destruction. But do the stories coincide with the eventualities? One would suspect that in many cases, only hindsight is capable of melding story with reality.

Ours is no exception: we have a variety of Judeo-Christian eschatologies. And of course it's impossible to get Christians to agree on the meanings of Daniel and Revelations, and the other relevant portions of the Bible that discuss the end. Moreover, Jews have their own range of ideas about how it will all end.

I'm somewhere between VaBthang4 and a different point from where NZerFromHK is heading in my point of view. I think the end always comes as a surprise. The cultural epicenter is based on simple components that simply don't allow a civilization to grasp why its downfall is imminent. This downfall can come from an intellectual inability to extend the civilization beyond a self-destructive phase, or its seeds can be either in environmental changes or threats from outside. I would say that Rome experienced all three.

I don't believe we are at the end, especially not in America. Ronald Reagan said that the best years were ahead, and I think he is right! And I think Israel is nowhere near collapse either. That puts our modern Judeo-Christian civilization on unsteady but strong footing.

What are the immediate dangers besides loss of morals and atheism? (I.e. rejecting the tenets of our civilization altogether.) I think those problems have indeed put us at an intellectual crossroads, but they don't necessarily lead to our downfall. Our story is still being told. We're still dynamic, alive, and interested in living. We still want to do what is right, for the most part. Besides, isn't it possible to live in a cultural millieu where the strongly religious and the strongly secular can coexist? I think it can. In fact, I think we have to achieve that goal, and I think it is one that our founding fathers believed was central to the health of our own republic.

If Europe suffers further collapse, it could lead to conflict between western Europeans and the Coalition. This conflict could destroy us, but I think it is not likely to occur. When things get worse, the Franco-German axis will undergo a massive revision as its own peoples realize there has been a mistake. America and Britain will be forgiving at that point. In many ways, I am addressing internal threats of moral lack of clarity and weak policies on immigration. We're finding across the northern hemisphere that if people were created equally, their cultures were not. Under those circumstances we must act to preserve English, French, German, and American "culture." I include the other countries in Europe and free Asia as well.

These issues lead to further economic problems, especially in Europe. But western European countries may have their own Margaret Thatchers just waiting to step forward. I am not too pessimistic about this. I'm an optimist, in fact.

We face major threats from outside, including China and those who would bring a third Caliphate. I think the key to those threats is in western Europe's handling of its own internal crisis. If it can recenter itself economically, Europe won't be tempted to sell out western civilization to the Chinese and continue selling out to the moslems. If it does, then we will all face a deeper crisis. But there, too, I think Americans can and would defend western civilization again.

By all means, keep consulting your religious eschatologies. But I think the right way to conduct our lives is to live the best we can according to the morals we gain from our civilization's underpinnings, and do our best to protect the future for the next generation.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
--- Mark 13:32

50 posted on 06/13/2004 7:32:33 PM PDT by risk
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