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Senate Votes to Add 20,000 Troops to Army
Yahoo News ^ | 6/17/04 | KEN GUGGENHEIM

Posted on 06/17/2004 5:56:59 PM PDT by Libloather

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To: conshack

Since when has congress cared about doing the right thing. They do only that which is politically expedient or will buy them votes. They could not care less about the troops or their effectiveness. They only want to sound as if they care.

The older I get the more cynical I get about the politicians.

Having said that, I have no idea what should be done. I simply think Rummy and the Generals know better than the congress critters.


41 posted on 06/17/2004 8:01:16 PM PDT by arjay ("Are we a government that has a country, or a country that has a government?" Ronald Reagan)
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To: tiamat

Recruiters are turning away good men for trivial reasons, or putting them on long waiting lists. I have seen this with my own eyes, very recently.

10 years ago we had not problem mannign a volunteer military twice the size of the current one. We can add 20k easily.


42 posted on 06/17/2004 8:58:01 PM PDT by wingnutx (tanstaafl)
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To: CasearianDaoist
"I think that this oveer steps the seperation of powers boundaries."

How on Earth did you figure that one? Congress has the power to make laws. Congress made a law. They didn't tell the Army to, "go here, do this", they simply ordered them to add more troops, and then gave them the funding to do so. Take a look at the War Powers Act if you want to see just how far away this is from breeching seperation.

"We really do not need more troops."

93 Senators, most of whom are Republicans, disagree with you. That being said, I'm sure you've got far more access to high level security briefings than they do. They're probably working off outdated information.(/Sarcasm)

"This is an attempt by the Democrats"

I must have fallen asleep and woken up in another universe - we have 93 Democrats in the Senate? We have a Democrat majority in the House? Incredible.

"The whole "stretched thin" business is just more electioneering."

I seriously doubt that the soldiers who've seen their tours extended multiple times and the soldiers who've seen their retirements snatched away would agree with you. We've been throwing whoever we've got into wherever they're needed most, and we've been extending tours for those who we're unable to replace. I'd say that's stretched pretty thin. Now, I'm the first to say we shouldn't be in about 80% of the countries we're currently in, but that doesn't mean that adding more troops until we decide to pull the others is a bad thing.
43 posted on 06/17/2004 9:04:25 PM PDT by NJ_gent
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To: Blood of Tyrants

he's rattled by his voting record from the past 10 years
being brought back to haunt him. it's spineless, but it
looks like his solution to this dilemma is to just stop
voting.

no votes, thus no controversy over the votes.

did I mention that this was spineless?


44 posted on 06/17/2004 9:21:32 PM PDT by smonk
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To: arjay

The older I get the more cynical I get about the politicians.

Having said that, I have no idea what should be done. I simply think Rummy and the Generals know better than the congress critters

I can relate to the cynical part. They need to realign and add infantry troops. Rummy asked for them, I'm sure. We WILL beat these terrorists.


45 posted on 06/17/2004 9:54:28 PM PDT by conshack
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To: smonk

he's rattled by his voting record from the past 10 years
being brought back to haunt him. it's spineless

If it's Kerry you're talking about, F'n Kerry did't vote on this. Are you surprized?


46 posted on 06/17/2004 9:57:59 PM PDT by conshack
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To: conshack

>If it's Kerry you're talking about, F'n Kerry did't vote on >this. Are you surprized?

that's what prompted my post.


47 posted on 06/17/2004 9:59:34 PM PDT by smonk
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To: smonk

Even the dems that have a minimum of intelligence would not be happy with F'ns lack of a voting record. How do you suppose they could find out? Suppose CNN might bring that to light? I, for one, won't hold my breath.


48 posted on 06/17/2004 10:58:48 PM PDT by conshack
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To: wingnutx

Are the recruiters turning them away because of budget problems?

That's just nuts.


49 posted on 06/18/2004 1:54:13 AM PDT by tiamat ("Just a Bronze-Age Gal, Trapped in a Techno-World!")
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To: Libloather
I really don't like McCain's comments that we didn't have enough troops at the end of major combat and this was an "incredible mistake" that lead to continuing violence. It's just not that simple. This is typical politcal talk that sounds good in the media but it lacks a thorough analysis and substance. The truth is that we've always had 20 times as much firepower as we need to defeat any gang of insurgents. The problem has been lack of actionable intelligence. We don't have enough information about who is going to attack our troops and where & when they'll attack.

It would help to have more troops to seal the borders with Syria and Iran, but those are big long borders and we can't put 50,000 men on each border without also having much bigger supply convoys into Iraq. More supply convoys means more vulnerable targets for attackers.

My conclusion is that our problems are caused more by a lack of technology developed for this kind of nation-building in a hostile area, rather than a simple lack of manpower. We need much better surveillance technology and intelligence tech to keep an eye on what the insurgents are doing. Our military just doesn't have the technology to complete this kind of mission without taking some serious casualties. We have not developed the technology for fighting in the 360-degree urban battlefield of Iraq. McCain is just grandstanding for media approval (as usual.) Cheney should give him a call and tell him to shut up and stop looking for scapegoats in the civilian leadership. This is just a really tough mission in Iraq, but it's vitally important that we succeed.

50 posted on 06/18/2004 2:36:07 AM PDT by Patriot_from_CA (Suddenly the raven on Scalia's shoulder stirred and spoke. Quoth the raven..."NeverGore")
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To: Libloather

IIRC, this was a big plank in JFKerry's plan. Just like a new UN resolution about Iraq and his attacks against the economy ("no jobs, bad jobs, burger jobs..."), this one has been overtaken by events. Politically, he has no platform left.

Bush campaign should make some noise about how if Kerry thinks this is important, maybe he should have shown up and voted.


51 posted on 06/18/2004 2:48:21 AM PDT by TN4Liberty (Life is a quagmire. Get used to it.)
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To: Libloather

HMMMMMMM!! Was Kerry there to vote or did he conveniently miss this one too?


52 posted on 06/18/2004 6:27:58 AM PDT by areafiftyone (Democrats = the hamster is dead but the wheel is still spinning)
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To: Tailback

"Pull all COMBAT troops out of Germany"

I agree with your other recommendations; combat troops in Germany: IMO it has helped with Afghanistan and Iraq to have some forward-deployed troops available. It is not that we need combat troops in Europe, for Europe; but, e.g. for the Middle-East etc. It is so difficult to air life a heavy division, so it makes some sense to have some of those heavy forces closer to the strategic risk. It would be a strategic calculus to leave them there . . .


53 posted on 06/18/2004 7:27:21 AM PDT by AMDG&BVMH (an Army retiree speaks her mind . . .)
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To: Little Bill

"We need at least a Corps equivalent and a hard look at our Reserve system."

Yes, you are totally correct that the active force was cut waaay too much under the Clintoon administration; and, waaay too much was expected of the reserve force. A Corps would be nice; how about a Theatre Army?? ;)


54 posted on 06/18/2004 7:31:13 AM PDT by AMDG&BVMH (an Army retiree speaks her mind . . .)
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To: Libloather

will volunteers support this 20,000-troop increase?


55 posted on 06/18/2004 7:32:45 AM PDT by freddiedavis
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To: Steel Wolf

"That money could be going to fix the helicopter I'll be riding in, or more ammo and spare parts, or a million other things that I'll now be doing without."

IMHO, it is not either/or, but BOTH. That is the approach Cap Weinberger and Reagan used.

Of course there are fiefdoms. Some suggest turning more logistics, etc. over to civilians. IMHO, working with the CONUS R&D and logistics establishment, civilians who are not rotated like troops are the nexus of these fiefdoms, and they fight HARD and POLITICALLY (e.g. through their Senators) to keep their programs and staffing and $$$, justified by military need or not. Some are of course very patriotic; but few have the empathy for the troops in the field that comes from having been there. To those who have clawed their way up the political heap, it is the MONEY.


56 posted on 06/18/2004 7:36:55 AM PDT by AMDG&BVMH (an Army retiree speaks her mind . . .)
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To: tiamat

They are turning people away because they are at maximum staffing levels in amny areas. One way they do this is by adjusting standards, say prohibiting anyone with a G.E.D. from enlisting, for example. If you wanted (and could handle) a sudden influx of recruits, you'd adjust your standards appropriately.

A friend of mine recently tried to reenlist in the AF, and was turned down because he has a tattoo visible below his elbow. That's a new standard being enforced by the AF. He ended up crossing over to the Navy, which has no such rule.


57 posted on 06/18/2004 8:36:40 AM PDT by wingnutx (tanstaafl)
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To: AMDG&BVMH
It is so difficult to air life a heavy division, so it makes some sense to have some of those heavy forces closer to the strategic risk.

Which is why the Army is talking with Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria about putting in US Army bases. An added bonus to that is it would be cheaper to hire local labor.
58 posted on 06/19/2004 7:41:05 AM PDT by Tailback
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To: Tailback

"cheaper to hire local labor."

Interesting.

When I worked at the depot in Kaiserslautern, there were labor units formed after WW II, with a quasi-military structure. E.g. uniforms and rank. Many were easterners (including Germans) displaced by the War and the Communist take-over of the east. IOW, they would have been destitute, but were formed into these labor units, and worked in the depot.

They were by-and-large more productive and loyal to the Americans, and had more of a can-do attitude, than the employees who were individuals and subject to the German labor unions and labor laws -- which made it virtually impossible to fire one of them, and gave inordinate sick time, etc.


59 posted on 06/20/2004 5:03:47 AM PDT by AMDG&BVMH
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To: CasearianDaoist
The whole "stretched thin" business is just more electioneering.

I talked to a guy recently who just got back from 9 months in Iraq. He was in the states for three months and had been told that he would then be heading to Afganistan for a 6 month tour. He's on a stop loss and can't get out when his enlistment ends. So when it comes to that then yeah, we're streached too thin.

60 posted on 06/20/2004 5:19:03 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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