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S.F.proposes limited non-citizen voting
Washington Times ^ | June 21, 2004 | UPI

Posted on 06/21/2004 4:51:14 PM PDT by Nachum

Edited on 07/12/2004 4:16:44 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

San Francisco, CA, Jun. 21 (UPI) -- A plan is being considered that allow non-citizens, including illegal immigrants, to vote in San Francisco school board elections.

The San Jose Mercury News said Monday the proposed November ballot measure was aimed at getting more parents involved in their children's education by waiving California's requirement that voters be U.S. citizens.


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: aliens; alienvote; limited; noncitizen; proposes; sf; voting
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1 posted on 06/21/2004 4:51:15 PM PDT by Nachum
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To: Nachum

Treason. Flat-out, pure treason.


2 posted on 06/21/2004 4:53:31 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: Nachum
I don't understand why.
Since they disregarded the marriage laws with such abandon, why do the voting laws mean anything ?
3 posted on 06/21/2004 5:01:14 PM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: Psycho_Bunny
WTH?

I didn't think SF could get any more insane, I should know better than to undersestimate them...

4 posted on 06/21/2004 5:02:21 PM PDT by Damocles (sword of...)
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To: Nachum

Mr. Roof wins in an upset.

5 posted on 06/21/2004 5:02:40 PM PDT by RobFromGa (The Four Pillars of America; Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Reagan)
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To: Nachum

Doesn't this violate the Constitution, or does that apply solely to federal elections?

Either way, I can't think of any other place on this earth that would do something this dumb!!


6 posted on 06/21/2004 5:02:42 PM PDT by DustyMoment (Repeal CFR NOW!!)
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To: Nachum

They've been talking about this in Santa Cruz for several years, and for the life of me, I CANNOT figure out how they can do it. The law is the law............case closed.


7 posted on 06/21/2004 5:04:40 PM PDT by EggsAckley (........"John Kerry changes positions more often than a Nevada prostitute".........)
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To: Nachum

Actually not that bad. If the parents have children in the school district I can see where allowing them a say by voting on school related issues wouldn't upset the intent of our democracy.


8 posted on 06/21/2004 5:05:47 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: Nachum
S.F.proposes limited non-citizen voting

I suppose that's the follow up to deviant voting.
9 posted on 06/21/2004 5:12:29 PM PDT by farmer18th
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To: pcx99

The danger is in cheapening the meaning of citizenship. If you want a voice in the oublic life of this country, then strive for citizenship.


10 posted on 06/21/2004 5:12:36 PM PDT by ConservativeVoice
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To: pcx99
wouldn't upset the intent of our democracy.

How about the fact that they (illegal immigrants) are even here is a violation of law. They are actively involved in criminal activity by simply being here and you want to let them vote too? Incredible!

11 posted on 06/21/2004 5:13:37 PM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: Nachum

Citizenship and sovereignty officially became passe this January, when President Bush announced he would never enforce the our immigration laws.


12 posted on 06/21/2004 5:14:17 PM PDT by dagnabbit (Islamic Immigration is the West's Suicide)
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To: Nachum

This is a thorny issue. On one hand, if these citizens aren't here the right way; they should be deported. If on the other hand, they are here legally, but not yet accorded citizenship status -- this might be a very good way to turn SF schools around. Many of the "new" to America are not about to just shut up and go along with the "gay agenda" or some other "poli id" group if the educational values are twisted. Frankly, I need more data to understand this matter.


13 posted on 06/21/2004 5:16:00 PM PDT by Alia (California -- It's Groovy! Baby!)
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To: Nachum

Addendum: Before anyone begins screeching at me. Yes, I was involved with Prop 187. Yes, I've been through the long-haul on the "immigration" issues. At this point, I'm not about to begin screaming at people over their being involved with their children's education -- I'd rather scream at liberal democrats in office who derailed 187, and continue to pass more and more onerous taxes upon the citizens of CA. I totally, totally think the SF "body" of legislators is obnoxious, and a perfect example of "lawless vigilantism".


14 posted on 06/21/2004 5:18:21 PM PDT by Alia (California -- It's Groovy! Baby!)
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To: ConservativeVoice
Yes I can see how people who are living here (maybe even leagally with a visa/green card/etc) being deprived of the ability to have a voice in their children's education (which is compulsiary BTW regardless of legal status) cheapens democracy which guarantees taxation with representation and one man one vote.
15 posted on 06/21/2004 5:24:15 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: EggsAckley
The law is the law............

And this became important to liberals when?

16 posted on 06/21/2004 5:27:20 PM PDT by OSHA (This is a loaner. My real tagline is in the shop.)
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To: pcx99

And resident aliens paying federal taxes have no vote in federal elections. Isn't that taxation without representation?

Not having citizenship limits your choices.


17 posted on 06/21/2004 5:28:27 PM PDT by ConservativeVoice
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To: EggsAckley

Actually, it makes a lot of sense to let the illegals vote.........if you are a democrat running for office.


18 posted on 06/21/2004 5:29:32 PM PDT by San Jacinto
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To: ConservativeVoice
The danger is in cheapening the meaning of citizenship. If you want a voice in the oublic life of this country, then strive for citizenship.

(Cue libspeak):

Are we not all citizens of the world? Are the only voices to be heard regarding the education of the children to be limited to only a select few? And have we not already cheapened the meaning of citizenship by the actions of our citizens at..............................(ready?)..................................... abu Gharib?

19 posted on 06/21/2004 5:30:55 PM PDT by Michael.SF. ('President Reagan has died, but don't lower the flag until we have too'.....DNC)
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To: San Jacinto

Actually, it makes a lot of sense to let the illegals vote.........if you are a democrat running for office.

Put the demorats in charge of this. They have a good record on signing up illegals.


20 posted on 06/21/2004 5:34:53 PM PDT by taxesareforever
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To: Psycho_Bunny
A plan is being considered that allow non-citizens, including illegal immigrants, to vote

Seeing that most all of our politicos are pandering to these criminals, no doubt, this is coming to a town and state near you. Bet the rent.

21 posted on 06/21/2004 5:35:37 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: Alia
I'd rather scream at liberal democrats in office who derailed 187, and continue to pass more and more onerous taxes upon the citizens of CA

The feds in concert with local dictators, buried 187. This is clear.

22 posted on 06/21/2004 5:37:13 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: pcx99

If they're illegal immigrants, they shouldn't have kids in the school in the first place. This is insanity!


23 posted on 06/21/2004 5:37:41 PM PDT by BykrBayb (5 minutes of prayer for Terri, every day at 11 am EDT, until she's safe. http://www.terrisfight.org)
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To: pcx99

Actually not that bad. If the parents have children in the school district I can see where allowing them a say by voting on school related issues wouldn't upset the intent of our democracy.

You have to be kidding!!!!!!!

They don't belong here at any level. Their kids are sucking the schools dry. More and more special teachers to teach EVERY DIALECT known to man-even prehistoric man.
Differect values about the rights of females of all ages. Damage to school facilities. No respect for the teachers- as bad as they are. We all could go on and on.
Are they going to print up special ballots which ONLY have the "School Board" candidates on them? Another waste of the taxpayer money. And the cost of counting them separately.
Don't give me the crap about all the taxes these people pay. They don't. They most often work under the table for cash. When they do get on a payroll with a desperate employer, they put down an outlandish number of dependents- I had 12 on a W-4 for an 18 y/o male---which then means that NO Federal or State income taxes are withheld. They use much more in medical services than they contribute to Medicare. They use far more police and sheriff services than they pay in taxes. Use your heads.

This is another slam on the citizen who was born here or who went thru the hoops to be here legally. I for one am sick of the draining of taxes to support "the poor" from God knows where.
Everyone is "POORER" than someone, and there is only ONE person at the top. Everyone else is in a comparison game.


24 posted on 06/21/2004 5:39:32 PM PDT by ridesthemiles (ridesthemiles)
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: pcx99
Actually not that bad. If the parents have children in the school district I can see where allowing them a say by voting on school related issues wouldn't upset the intent of our democracy.

First, this country isn't a democracy; it's a Republic. Second, without government responsible to citizens only, it isn't a country. Third, the parents of those kids should be deported. If the government followed the law, your statement would be totally pointless, as opposed to merely extremely foolish.

26 posted on 06/21/2004 5:42:42 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: pcx99

Good Lord....you need to ponder this a bit more.


27 posted on 06/21/2004 5:44:14 PM PDT by wardaddy (It will take at least 100,000 deaths on US soil to bring America to a true war footing....sadly.)
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To: pcx99
Actually not that bad. If the parents have children in the school district I can see where allowing them a say by voting on school related issues wouldn't upset the intent of our democracy.

Do they make a net tax contribution to those schools? Probably not. They are talking about letting illegals vote. They can't own real property in the district, thus they aren't paying the freight. Letting people who don't pay the bills vote is a direct dilution of the rights of the voters who do pay the bill.

The right to vote in an election that affects school funding should be limited to citizens who actually foot the bill. Everyone else is a freeloader.

28 posted on 06/21/2004 5:45:53 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Dutchy; RaceBannon; firebrand
If passed, the measure would be the first in California, although similar laws have been enacted in New York, Chicago and Maryland. First I'm learing this has been the practice in NY. Anyone else in the dark?
29 posted on 06/21/2004 5:52:04 PM PDT by StarFan
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To: pcx99
Actually not that bad.

Ya know, on second thought, you're right. Since we're all world citizens, where each man is our brother, why do we impose such hateful, arbitrary constraints like 'borders'?

I mean, who has the right to determine who and who cannot live/work/play/raise a family in the N. American states? Oh sure, there's probably a bunch of right-wing nutjobs who will try and threaten our extended world family members with violence lest they trespass on their hollowed land, but heck, isn't the what the UN is for - to arrest and bring these perps before a world court?

30 posted on 06/21/2004 5:55:36 PM PDT by Snerfling
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To: Joe Hadenuf

You know the only reason they want this is because they
don't see these parents as republicans.


31 posted on 06/21/2004 6:05:40 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Myrddin
Unless they're homeless they're living somewhere which means they're paying SOMEONE rent and that someone has to pay taxes so by definition they are paying taxes regardless of their citizenship status. Next dehuminization attempt please.
32 posted on 06/21/2004 6:06:09 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: Nachum

Its Democrats expanding the pool of eligible voters. Nothing to see here and its time to move on.


33 posted on 06/21/2004 6:07:47 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: wardaddy
No, really I don't. So long as the parents are forced to send their children to school, so long as they live in the school district (and unless they live on the streets) and pay taxes even if indirectly through a landlord then really it's not right and it's not RIGHT to expect them not to have a say in the education that's being forced upon their kids. And since you invoke the Good Lord, it's not Christian either.
34 posted on 06/21/2004 6:11:49 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: pcx99

Around here, they live 4 and five families per house. The taxes the landlord pays aren't adjusted accordingly.


35 posted on 06/21/2004 6:12:42 PM PDT by monkeywrench
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To: BykrBayb
If they're illegal immigrants, they shouldn't have kids in the school in the first place. This is insanity!

Yes it is Bayb.

It's the government approved invasion of millions!

36 posted on 06/21/2004 6:13:47 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: monkeywrench
And small though it is they are paying taxes eh? Any feelings of inequality should be dealt with by the tax assessor and the county treasurer (which they can't vote on).
37 posted on 06/21/2004 6:14:04 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: Carry_Okie

What about the parents of the kids who are here legally under visas and green cards?

I'm all for enforcement, shoot put an INS agent at the polls and schools and hospitals and everywhere else and ask everyone to show proof of citizenship (courts ruled today police can ask all sorts of invasive questions now). But hey, if you're here legally (if not a citizsen) and paying taxes and have a kid in school, you should have a right to hold the school board accountable.

But hey, I'm a wild and crazy guy.

38 posted on 06/21/2004 6:17:07 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: pcx99
So long as the parents are forced to send their children to school

No, we are forced to pay for them

so long as they live in the school district illegally

and pay taxes even if indirectly through a landlord

Far less than what they take from this state and country in benefits

it's not RIGHT to expect them not to have a say in the education that's being forced upon their kids

It's not RIGHT to let illegals and their children come to our country and destroy our quality of life, our schools, our medical system, our security, and our culture.

And since you invoke the Good Lord, it's not Christian either

No where in the Bible does it require the United States to open its borders and volunteer it's citenzenry to live in Hell.

39 posted on 06/21/2004 6:22:11 PM PDT by Nachum
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To: pcx99
What about the parents of the kids who are here legally under visas and green cards?

They have reason to become citizens or leave.

But hey, if you're here legally (if not a citizsen) and paying taxes and have a kid in school, you should have a right to hold the school board accountable.

You do. Pull your kids and either put them in a private school or educate them at home. Nobody is making them take a free education.

40 posted on 06/21/2004 6:25:17 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Psycho_Bunny

Did you have the same reaction when similar laws were enacted in New York, Chicago, and Maryland?


41 posted on 06/21/2004 6:26:24 PM PDT by Xenalyte (This dog bite me.)
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To: Nachum

Ego problems much? You agreed below they pay taxes both sales and property. They're paying their share and if they ARE illegals using bogus social security numbers they're leaving behind BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of social security funds which will NEVER EVER BE COLLECTED.

That's an enforcement problem. Want more enforcement, raise taxes and hire more imigration officials. And what about the ones here legaly, in all this imigrant bashing nobody bothers with that pesky little question.

Proof please. Links and all that rot. Because the way I see it, if every illegal in california went home right now your garbage would rot in the street, your produce would rot in the fields, your sewer lines wouldn't get dug, and you wouldn't enjoy the full protection offered by all those fine imigrants in the US armed forces, and all the crappy horrible jobs you're just way to good for would cease to function and so would California. And lets not even go into the comming social security and medicare crisis where all those baby boomers are going to want their social security and medicare paid by the few children they were so kind as to bestow on the world (overpopulation and all).

I agree, vote for more border patrol agents and INS agents and when the economy starts to collapse vote to allow more in.

No but it does say "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" and all sorts of other really wonderful things that apply wonderfully to this particular issue, you really should take a read sometime.

42 posted on 06/21/2004 6:31:13 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: Carry_Okie
Careful now don't wanna prove what all those liberals say about conservatives right.

Oh this is a gem. Where do you get that education is free huh? Even if they take the kids out of public school and pay to put them in private school because the liberals don't allow school vouchers they still get to pay public school taxes through their sales tax and property tax (through rent).

43 posted on 06/21/2004 6:33:38 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: ridesthemiles
Are they going to print up special ballots which ONLY have the "School Board" candidates on them? Another waste of the taxpayer money. And the cost of counting them separately.

Maybe that'll be the supposed intent, but recall the March primary election errors in Orange and San Diego Counties, where many people voted incorrectly (wrong ballots, wrong candidates, wrong measures; one district reported more votes than registered voters). As long as the votes are cast, even if they are cast in error by people ineligible to vote for those measures or candidates, the votes count.

In a close election, a pollworker could influence the outcome by simply "accidentally" giving a normal/full ballot to a noncitizen special "voter."

44 posted on 06/21/2004 6:34:07 PM PDT by heleny
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To: pcx99
Actually not that bad.

It is if it in any way involves how taxpayer money is to be spent. The illegals have no right at all in determining how money they don't contribute into gets spent.

45 posted on 06/21/2004 6:34:15 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: FITZ

The inverse of your reasoning would be, if illegals DO pay taxes, they should have a say in where the money goes. GOTCHA!!!


46 posted on 06/21/2004 6:35:51 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Xenalyte
No.  This is the first I've encountered the issue of non-citizens being considered for/granted a right to vote in Civil matters.

lol....."BATTLE ON, XENA!" heheh

47 posted on 06/21/2004 6:37:16 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: FITZ

Property tax (if through rent), sales tax, gas tax, income tax (unless the employer is breaking the law), social security tax (unless the employer is breaking the law), medicare tax (unless the employer is breaking the law). If they are here they are contributing even if you chose to ignore the fact.

48 posted on 06/21/2004 6:39:24 PM PDT by pcx99
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To: pcx99
pay taxes both sales and property

Not necessarily. If the people actually file taxes, California provides a renters' credit to offset the property taxes that renters pay indirectly through rent payments.

California provides many benefits to low income people. Illegal aliens claim those benefits disproportionately, since CA offers many of the benefits without regard to immigration status. Education is one social service that the feds require CA to provide to illegal aliens, but CA has its own share of blame for luring illegal aliens with many other social benefits.

Illegal aliens with more money usually try to normalize their status (through several past amnesties or amnesty-like programs) and be right with the law. The rest are in violation of our laws.

49 posted on 06/21/2004 6:43:23 PM PDT by heleny
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To: pcx99
So long as the parents are forced to send their children to school, so long as they live in the school district (and unless they live on the streets) and pay taxes even if indirectly through a landlord then really it's not right and it's not RIGHT to expect them not to have a say in the education that's being forced upon their kids.

What if the parents are felons who have served their time?

What if a parent is dead but used to really care about his child's future education?

50 posted on 06/21/2004 6:47:59 PM PDT by heleny
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