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Why Jews Welcome Muslims
Frontpagemag.com ^ | June 22, 04 | Lawrence Auster

Posted on 06/23/2004 10:42:14 AM PDT by churchillbuff

Mass Moslem immigration into America combined with world-wide Moslem Jew-hatred poses an unprecedented threat to American Jews-a "perfect storm" that is forcing at least some Jews into an agonizing re-appraisal of their traditional support for open immigration. So says Stephen Steinlight in his hard-hitting essay, "High Noon to Midnight: Why Current Immigration Policy Dooms American Jewry," published by the Center for Immigration Studies. A former director of national affairs at the American Jewish Committee and now an outspoken advocate of immigration reform, Steinlight tells his fellow Jews that they, along with the rest of America, face a momentous choice. If they turn away from their extreme immigration liberalism and help move America toward sensible immigration restrictions, the growth of the Moslem community in this country can be slowed substantially and even stopped, and a decent existence for the Jews themselves can be preserved. But if Jews and others continue in their embrace of open borders, in thirty years time the Jews will find themselves a besieged and powerless minority in an Islamic-dominated, anti-Semitic America.

That's what Steinlight is telling them. But will they listen? As he explains it, immigration to the U.S. in the early 20th century was literally a life or death matter for Jews-life for the immigrants, and death for those who stayed behind in Europe or who were closed out of America by the restrictive immigration policies of the 1920s and 1930s. For Jews, he says:

"(T)he immigration debate pits the heart against the head. In their gut, many feel that substantially reducing immigration betrays the legacy of their parents and grandparents. But a growing number believes that maintaining this policy betrays their children and grandchildren. The danger arises because mass immigration means importing mass anti-Semitism.... "

Yet, despite the dangers Moslem immigration poses to their security and their whole way of life, Jews have for the most part maintained their support for open immigration, and Steinlight by the end of his article does not seem very hopeful that they will change their minds-or at least that they will do so before it's too late to avoid disaster.

Loyalty to their ancestors' immigration "legacy" hardly seems a sufficient explanation for Jews' adherence to a policy that, as Steinlight puts it, spells the ultimate eclipse and ruin of Jewish life in this country, not to mention the ruin of America itself. After all, Jews in many cases betray without hesitation their grandparents' orthodox religious beliefs, and in other cases their grandparents' socialism, so why should their grandparents' immigrant history be so sacred to them? If we are to have any chance of converting the Jews from their open borders ideology, we must understand their own reasons for believing in it. From the following discussion, two basic perspectives on this problem will emerge, one pessimistic, the other optimistic.

The real object of Jewish fears

First of all, as crazy as it may sound, there is something that many American Jews fear in their heart of hearts even more than they fear Moslem anti-Semitism, and that is white Christian anti-Semitism. Steinlight himself pointed to this phenomenon at a recent panel discussion hosted by the Center for Immigration Studies:

"Every high profile Jewish institution, whether it's a national organization or a major synagogue, is surrounded by concrete barriers to prevent car bombs exploding too close to the buildings. If you go through the lobbies into those buildings you have to pass metal detectors and double-doors of bulletproof glass. You are then frisked by security guards, mostly retired New York City police or Israeli agents, and then are scanned again with metal detectors.

"What is truly comic about this-were it not an instance in the theatre of the absurd, and were it not so appalling an indication of the kind of mass denial that is still governing major American Jewish organizations, including the one I used to work for that's currently meeting across the street-is that the staffs of these organizations pass the car bomb barriers, go through the double bulletproof glass lobbies, get frisked, then go upstairs into their offices and spend their days talking about the threats posed by evangelical Christians...."

Jews' risible obsession with non-existent evangelical Protestant anti-Semites, combined with their obliviousness to actual mass murdering Islamist anti-Semites (whom, moreover, the Jews' favored immigration policies have allowed into this country) is an amazing phenomenon that we should not dismiss as simply a bizarre ethnic idiosyncrasy. It expresses, rather, a central preoccupation of a significant number of Jews, namely their corrosive apprehension of what they think the goyim might one day do to them-a fear they entertain despite the fact that, apart from some social exclusions and other ethnic prejudices that existed up to the end of World War II, Jews have never faced serious anti-Semitism from the white Christian majority in this country.

Just the other week I was telling a secular, leftist Jew of my acquaintance, a man in his late sixties, about my idea (which I've proposed at FrontPage Magazine) that the only way to make ourselves safe from the specter of domestic Moslem terrorism is to deport all jihad-supporting Moslems from this country. He replied with emotion that if America deported Moslem fundamentalists, it would immediately start doing the same thing to Jews as well. "It's frightening, it's scary," he said heatedly, as if the Jews were already on the verge of being rounded up. In the eyes of this normally phlegmatic and easy-going man, America is just a shout away from the mass persecution, detention, and even physical expulsion of Jews. Given the wildly overwrought suspicions that some Jews harbor about the American Christian majority who are in fact the Jews' best friends in the world, it is not surprising that these Jews look at mass Third-World and Moslem immigration, not as a danger to themselves, but as the ultimate guarantor of their own safety, hoping that in a racially diversified, de-Christianized America, the waning majority culture will lack the power, even if it still has the desire, to persecute Jews.

The self-protective instinct to divide and weaken a potentially oppressive majority population may have served Jews well at certain times and places in the past when they truly were threatened. Under current circumstances-in America, the most philo-Semitic nation in the history of the world-it both morally wrong and suicidal. Not only are the open-borders Jews urging policies harmful to America's majority population, but, by doing so, they are surely triggering previously non-existent anti-Jewish feelings among them. The tragedy is that once a collective thought pattern gets deeply ingrained, as is the Jews' historically understandable fear of gentiles, it takes on a life of its own and becomes immune to evidence and reason.

This element of the Jewish psyche is further illumined by Norman Podhoretz in his memoir, My Love Affair with America:

"[M]y own view is that what had befallen the Jews of Europe inculcated a subliminal lesson. . . . The lesson was that anti-Semitism, even the relatively harmless genteel variety that enforced quotas against Jewish students or kept their parents from joining fashionable clubs or getting jobs in prestigious Wall Street law firms, could end in mass murder." [Emphasis added.]

While the idea Podhoretz expresses here is certainly familiar, it is familiar more as a parody of Jewish fears than as something Jews themselves have openly stated. For years, it's been a running joke among traditionalist conservatives, including those of Jewish background such as myself (and there are more right-wing Jews than people realize) that "any criticism of Jews is equated with Auschwitz." The complaint, I confess, had always seemed a just a tad hyperbolic. But if Podhoretz's portrayal of Jews' beliefs is correct, then the old parody, "Any criticism of Jews is a potential Auschwitz," turns out to be what the Jewish community has believed all along. What this means is that in the minds of Jews, any desire on the part of gentiles to maintain an all-gentile country club, or any statement by a Christian, no matter how mild and civilized, that shows any concern about any aspects of the cultural and political influence of secular Jews in American life, is an expression of anti-Jewish bigotry that could easily lead to mass extermination, and therefore it must be ruthlessly suppressed.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying, as today's anti-Semites are constantly saying, that concerns about anti-Semitism are nothing but political correctness. Though it is still largely a fringe phenomenon, anti-Semitism and Israel-hatred in today's America are terribly real, having grown by leaps and bounds in some parts of the political spectrum since 9/11, as I have discussed at length at FrontPage Magazine (see here and here) and at my website, View from the Right (see here and here). Yet we must also note a tendency on the part of more than a few Jews to decry as anti-Semitic virtually any rational criticism of Jews, or any normal manifestations of gentile ethnocentrism, or even any strong expression of Christian religious belief. Think of the wild charges that were leveled against Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" by such prominent Jewish commentators as Charles Krauthammer, who characterized the movie as "a singular act of interreligious aggression ... spectacularly vicious ... the pre-Vatican II story of the villainous Jews," and William Safire, who said that audiences would leave the theater with no other thought than to look for Jews to punish for the death of Jesus. There was also the disturbing fact that Commentary, which in the past had always defended Christians and Christianity from false charges of anti-Semitism, approvingly reviewed James Carroll's virulently anti-Christian book, Constantine's Sword, which argues that the Christian religion is inherently anti-Semitic and the ultimate cause of the Nazi Holocaust.

The significance of the Jewish belief in a lurking anti-Semitism among white Christians is made clearer by another passage in My Love Affair With America:

"Acting on the principle that 'all bigotry is indivisible,' Jewish organizations such as the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League, whose purpose was to defend Jews against discrimination and defamation, joined enthusiastically in the civil-rights movement, of which individual Jews were for a long time leaders and funders."

The principle that all bigotry is indivisible implies that all manifestations of ingroup/outgroup feeling (if we're speaking about the feelings of a gentile majority ingroup, that is) are essentially the same-and equally wrong. It says that if you're against one outgroup, you're against all outgroups. This denies the important truth that some outgroups (e.g., Mideastern Moslem fundamentalists) are much more different from the ingroup (e.g. America's Anglo-Protestant majority culture), and hence much less assimilable, and hence more legitimately excluded, than other outgroups (e.g., Italian Catholics or Ashkenazi Jews). The belief in the indivisibility of all bigotry makes it impossible to distinguish between degrees of bigotry or ethnocentrism. It makes it impossible to distinguish between immoral bigotry, meaning the desire to hurt some other group, and the legitimate defense of one's own people, their identity, and their interests. To erase such distinctions is the essence of political correctness, the reduction of all moral questions to a choice between "inclusion" and "hate."

Now, when Jews put together the idea that "all bigotry is indivisible," with the idea that "any social prejudice or exclusion directed against Jews leads potentially to Auschwitz," they must reach the conclusion that any exclusion of any minority group, no matter how alien it may be to the host society, is a potential Auschwitz.

So there it is. We have identified the core assumption that makes many liberal and neoconservative Jews keep pushing relentlessly for mass immigration, even the mass immigration of their mortal enemies. As these Jews see it, any immigration restrictions against Moslems would release a latent ethnocentrism in the white American majority that would then turn instantly against the Jews. To state this thought process in the baldest terms, these Jews believe that if philo-Semitic white gentiles exclude Jew-hating Moslems from America, it would lead those same gentiles to commit another Jewish Holocaust.

Even if they don't take it to the absurd point of envisioning a Jewish Holocaust or some other anti-Jewish persecution in this country, various Jewish writers and spokesmen have continued to express a deeply suspicious attitude towards white Christian America. In the cover article of the November 1999 issue of Commentary, entitled "California and the End of White America," Ron Unz predicted that if the current non-European immigrants fail to assimilate, the danger will not be an uprising of unassimilated immigrant cultures, but an eruption of white nationalism. "[W]e face the very real threat of future movements along the lines of Proposition 187, each worse than the last, and on a national scale," Unz wrote. "There are few forces that could so easily break America as the coming of white nationalism." [Emphasis added.] Amazing. Multiculturalism and minority group-rights movements are tearing apart America's once unitary, individual-rights-based polity, as Commentary itself has been lamenting for years, while America's declining white majority has been reacting with what can only be called pusillanimous passivity in the face of this systematic attack on their country.

But now it turns out that what Commentary most fears is not the minority group-rights movement, but any possible resistance by white Americans to it, a resistance Commentary demonizes as "white nationalism." In other words, open-borders Jews fear a totally non-existent white defense of America more than they fear the actual realities of mass legal and illegal immigration, multiculturalism, Mexican irredentism, Moslem jihadism, and all the rest of the forces that are threatening our country. For anyone who shares this view, it follows that the quicker America's white majority is reduced to a minority by continued mass immigration, and the quicker America's majority culture is pushed aside by immigrant cultures, the better off America will be.

A more hopeful view

While the disturbing attitudes I have been describing constitute a definite strand in the American Jewish sensibility, as well in the sensibility of liberals generally, I find it hard to believe that most Jews or even most politically active Jews are so paranoid about white gentiles' potential for committing anti-Jewish oppression that they are driven to the insane expedient of supporting mass Moslem immigration in order to forestall that oppression. There is a more moderate-and more hopeful-way of explaining the Jews' attachment to Third-World immigration.

The Jewish experience in the modern world could be understood as a series of attempts by Jews to free themselves from the historic burden of Jewishness, the fierce social disabilities that had been imposed on them for centuries. As Paul Johnson writes in his History of the Jews, the Jewish Communists of the 19th century ("non-Jewish Jews," as he calls them) saw in Communism the end of national and ethnic identities for all mankind, and thus the end of the Jewish ethnic identity, and thus the liberation of the Jews from the age-old curse of anti-Jewish prejudice. To seek to overturn entire societies in order to get rid of one's own ethnic identity may seem a rather drastic approach to solving the Jewish problem, yet it reflects, in a uniquely exacerbated and destructive form, Jews' recurrent pattern of forming some global ideology for reasons relating to their particular situation as Jews. (Let us note that this tendency, while it can take negative forms as in the current example, is natural for a people whose tribal history and beliefs became the basis for all of Western civilization.)

In America, Jews discovered a more reasonable approach to the Jewish problem: liberal individualism. Under liberal individualism, only the individual and his rights matter and each person's ethnicity is irrelevant, or, in any case, as irrelevant as he wants it to be. As Milton Gordon wrote in his important 1964 book Assimilation in American Life, mid-twentieth century American society combined cultural assimilation, in which people of all backgrounds participate as individuals in a common public culture (the workplace, the schools, political life and so on), with structural pluralism, in which people tend to organize their residential patterns and social and religious lives along ethnic lines. This unique American arrangement allowed Jews a measure of social belonging, economic and professional success, and "at-home-ness" that they had not experienced since the destruction of the Second Temple, or perhaps ever in their history.

But starting in the 1960s, Jews, and liberals generally, took the good idea of liberal individualism too far. The very idea of a common culture, which they had previously seen as the pathway to success and belonging in America, started to seem discriminatory to them, since it implied that some peoples and cultures could fit into the common culture while others couldn't. A common culture also implied the existence of common standards of behavior, derived from America's declining WASP majority, to which people were expected to conform; and Jews in particular, after having eagerly adopted those standards in previous generations, began, in the liberatory afflatus of the Sixties, to find them stifling. Jews and other liberals thus turned from the moderate tolerance of mid-twentieth century America to what might be called tolerance absolutism, an attitude that delegitimized any notion of a common American culture or moral tradition (other than the tradition of liberalism itself), because shared cultural allegiances and moral norms would place limits on the individual self or the ethnic group.

This radicalized liberalism made Jews feel even safer-and freer to express themselves as Jews-than before. Having realized the model of "pure-non-discrimination-and-individual-rights-without-a-majority-culture" as the very basis of their unprecedented success, freedom, and happiness in America, Jews saw that model as not only advantageous to themselves personally, but as advantageous to everyone-indeed, as the highest political truth. It didn't occur to them that the radical individualist model worked so well for them because they are a uniquely high-achieving people operating in a still intact Western society. It didn't occur to them that the model might not work so well for less capable or less assimilable people in a society without a cohesive common culture, such as America was now becoming due to the tolerance absolutism that was supported by the Jews themselves. It didn't occur to them that both the intactness and the liberalism of the society would be threatened if the liberalism were taken too far.

Their belief that radical individualism is true for all mankind is thus for liberal secular Jews a crux of faith, an emotional prop to make sense of the world, and a key component of their identity as a people. More than any pragmatic calculus, it is the reason they bitterly resent any criticism of the liberal ideology and voraciously crave attempts to vindicate it, whether by assimilating Third-World immigrants, democratizing Moslem countries, or liquidating traditional values founded upon the restraint of individual desire. (Consider, for example, the Jewish community's extraordinary degree of support for homosexual marriage, far more extensive than that of any other ethnic or religious group-a uniquely ironic outcome for the first major people in history who saw homosexuality as an abomination to God.)

What the Jews need to see-what they can't help but see under the encroaching reality of jihad in America-is that, like any good idea, the good idea of non-discrimination can be carried too far. The moderate non-discrimination that allowed Jews to thrive in America did not have to be taken to the point of absolute non-discrimination, which required us to open our borders and our culture to unassimilable and hostile aliens, which in turn must result in the disarming and destruction of the society itself.

Notwithstanding the horrific problems created by the open-immigration ideology, I call this the optimistic view of Jewish support for open immigration because it assumes, not an endemic Jewish oppositionalism to America's majority culture, but a correctable misperception stemming from Jews' unique history. Having experienced the liberal paradigm of individual rights and non-discrimination as the recipe for their own earthly salvation after centuries of misery and persecution, Jews have, understandably though mistakenly, carried that ideology to an extreme where it threatens the very country that provided the Jews those protections and benefits in the first place. This is so patently irrational from the point of view of the Jews' own self-interest that they cannot help but eventually see it, if it is clearly and firmly pointed out to them.

No permanent victory

So, while Stephen Steinlight is to be applauded for his efforts to convert his fellow Jews to a sane immigration policy, he needs to recognize that they are bound to their belief in open borders by a larger set of emotional and political attachments than a reluctance to "betray their grandparents." He also needs to recognize that even if, under the pressure of immediate fears of Islamism in America, Jews back off from their open borders ideology, their conversion is unlikely to be very deep. A full and principled abandonment of modern liberalism by liberals and especially by Jews is not to be expected. Just as the Israelis will fight remorselessly against the Arabs when absolutely necessary, and then, as soon as the fighting briefly subsides, instantly turn back once again to the utopian hopes of the "peace-process," American Jews in the face of an imminent Islamist threat may support some kind of tightening of immigration laws, only to revert to their accustomed liberalism the moment that the immediate sense of intolerable danger is past. It is unrealistic to expect any final victory in this area. Liberalism is the organizing ideology of modern society, but for secular Jews (and the great majority of American Jews are essentially secular), it is a sacred trust toward which they feel the same zealous devotion that their religious brethren feel toward their covenant with God.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: adl; ajc; americanjews; christians; immigration; jews; muslims
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1 posted on 06/23/2004 10:42:14 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

Yep. And every one of these Christians who lack wisdom and self-control, and thus try to evangelize Jews, are the #1 cause of the problem.

How are we going to ally against Islam when evangelists work every day to sabotage the bridges between Judaism and Christianity?


2 posted on 06/23/2004 10:44:35 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Islam delenda est)
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To: churchillbuff
FWIW, IMHO if you listed the 100 problems facing American Jews...this wouldn't crack the top fifty...The TWO biggest are

1. Increasing secularism among American Jews...

2. Intermariage..

3 posted on 06/23/2004 10:45:40 AM PDT by ken5050
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To: thoughtomator
evangelists work every day to sabotage the bridges

Please. Evangelism doesn't threaten anybody. If you don't agree with an evangelist, tell him or her (politely, if possible) "thanks, but no thanks." They don't carry guns. I'm Christian and have been "evangelized" by Mormons and the "Watchtower" hawkers; they haven't converted me and it's never left a scar on my body. Stop crying wolf by suggesting that evangelism by any religion is wrong or dangerous. At most, for those who don't like it, it's a nuisance.

4 posted on 06/23/2004 10:47:58 AM PDT by churchillbuff (q)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: churchillbuff
there is something that many American Jews fear in their heart of hearts even more than they fear Moslem anti-Semitism, and that is white Christian anti-Semitism.
 
Sounds like a rational fear.  I mean, remember all the pogoms after The Passion?

Owl_Eagle

”Guns Before Butter.”

6 posted on 06/23/2004 10:49:38 AM PDT by South Hawthorne (Meat, it's what you're made of.)
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: ken5050

3. Hatred of Christians and removing Christian symbols in the US, and not realizing that Christians...religous Christians are their best friends.


8 posted on 06/23/2004 10:51:01 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: churchillbuff

I'm just explaining the perception. Jews in the US have a lot more contact with evangelicals than Muslims, and therefore many perceive the problem of evangelicals to be more acute.

Me, I'm a philo-Christian Jew who is trying to forge a solid alliance. But evangelicals turn the contact between the two groups into an adversarial situation, and force Jews into a position of having to defend their faith against conversion attempts.


9 posted on 06/23/2004 10:52:01 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Islam delenda est)
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To: churchillbuff
Gee I wonder why you posted this.

And changed the title.

10 posted on 06/23/2004 10:52:53 AM PDT by AmishDude
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: AmishDude
And changed the title.

Liar. This is the second of two articles -- and the title is as published.

12 posted on 06/23/2004 10:53:44 AM PDT by churchillbuff (q)
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To: Ann Archy

Why American Jews support Dem candidates..


13 posted on 06/23/2004 10:53:56 AM PDT by ken5050
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To: Ann Archy

The Democrats have done their work well. Many Americans - not just Jews - live in fear of white Christians - and therefore habitually vote Democrats into office so that the Dems will protect them from the "stupid, ignorant, bigoted, violent white Christians."


14 posted on 06/23/2004 10:54:55 AM PDT by Pete98
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To: AmishDude
Gee I wonder why you posted this.

Because 1) Frontpagemag ran it; 2) immigration is a front burner issue; 3) this is a legitimate topic. And you sound like a jerk.

15 posted on 06/23/2004 10:55:36 AM PDT by churchillbuff (q)
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To: churchillbuff
The large title is: Do Immigration Trends Doom Jews?

The smaller title is: High Noon to Midnight: Why Current Immigration Policy Dooms American Jewry.

I just clicked on the link. I have not lied at all. Click on it yourself.

16 posted on 06/23/2004 10:57:05 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: AmishDude
The large title is: Do Immigration Trends Doom Jews?

Wrong. It's two articles. Read through the entire thing. I posted the second article, which has its own title. Frankly, it's the more provacative of the two articles.

17 posted on 06/23/2004 10:58:18 AM PDT by churchillbuff (q)
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To: churchillbuff

"..of what they think the goyim might one day do to them-a fear they entertain despite the fact that, apart from some social exclusions and other ethnic prejudices that existed up to the end of World War II, Jews have never faced serious anti-Semitism from the white Christian majority in this country. "

I think these views were developed in Eastern and Central Europe due to periodic pogroms there and transported to America and re-assigned to White Christians. Out fits like the KKK didn't help things either and there is still an undercurrent of anti-Semitism in America although I would say it is rapidly declining.

I think more Christian Americans than ever before sympathize with Jews and Israel and rightly view Islam as a common threat and danger.


18 posted on 06/23/2004 11:01:40 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: churchillbuff

Why did your link link to the first article and not the second? And that doesn't explain your little editorial addition.


19 posted on 06/23/2004 11:01:49 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: churchillbuff
First of all, as crazy as it may sound, there is something that many American Jews fear in their heart of hearts even more than they fear Moslem anti-Semitism, and that is white Christian anti-Semitism.

Tell yourself a lie often enough by transferring your European habits upon innocent Americans and you get to live with the consequences.

Maybe the liberals might then start to muse upon what they did to bring about this chain of events? Might the ACLU even stop persecuting Christianity?

Naaahhh.

20 posted on 06/23/2004 11:05:38 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

For those who might be interested in this nonsense. Perhaps someone will point me to the evidence that Jews are advocating Muslim immigration, because I've never seen it. If instead the issue is the liberal view on immigration, the headline and much of the article are a fraud, most immigrants, legal and illegal, to this country are, well, Christians.

21 posted on 06/23/2004 11:07:04 AM PDT by SJackson (They're not Americans. They're just journalists, Col George Connell, USMC)
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To: thoughtomator
"Yep. And every one of these Christians who lack wisdom and self-control, and thus try to evangelize Jews, are the #1 cause of the problem.

How are we going to ally against Islam when evangelists work every day to sabotage the bridges between Judaism and Christianity?

You forgot your sarcasm tag.

22 posted on 06/23/2004 11:07:05 AM PDT by subterfuge (Liberalism is, as liberalism does.)
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To: churchillbuff

There is still Christian and secular anti-Semitism in the USA - a lot of it - but it very rarely errupts into anything more serious than graffiti. It is the same with anti-Catholicism; it is widespread, but is rarely expressed with violence or criminal acts. For the most part, Americans have learned to keep their resentments and prejudices at the verbal level, or even to repress them entirely. And you can't really expect much more than that.


23 posted on 06/23/2004 11:08:48 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: subterfuge

I only wish it were sarcasm. But I have no innocent explanation to give to other Jews as to why, for example, the Southern Baptists specifically target Jews for conversion. What sort of reaction would you have if another religion targeted you for conversion?


25 posted on 06/23/2004 11:10:13 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Islam delenda est)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: churchillbuff

A female Jewish friend of mine recently referred to some co-workers as "satanists," and I was surprised when I realized she was referring to Christians. The Jewish fear of Christians is apparently very deep. Christians need to realize that many Jews to this day regard Jesus as an evil being.


27 posted on 06/23/2004 11:12:13 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: ken5050
"FWIW, IMHO if you listed the 100 problems facing American Jews...this wouldn't crack the top fifty...The TWO biggest are

1. Increasing secularism among American Jews...

2. Intermariage..

I couldn't agree LESS and I'd really like to know your reasoning behind these statements. I would think that as the Jews become more and more secularized, that they would fear the Christians less and oppose the Islamists more.

28 posted on 06/23/2004 11:12:52 AM PDT by subterfuge (Liberalism is, as liberalism does.)
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To: churchillbuff
You mean: it's a [recurring] nuisance. Often around 6am or so.
29 posted on 06/23/2004 11:12:54 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Pete98; ken5050

The Dems on keeping Jews on the Plantation of Hate for white Religious Christians....it's SICK.


30 posted on 06/23/2004 11:13:53 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: thoughtomator
Yep. And every one of these Christians who lack wisdom and self-control, and thus try to evangelize Jews, are the #1 cause of the problem.

What a lode of garbage! All you have to do is tell an evangelical is no thank you, unlike islam they will go away without beheading you. Christianity is a choice you make not one forced on you at the point of a sword.

I will never understand Jewish fear of Protestant Christianity, it brought forth America and her freedoms and her love for the Jewish people. It seems to me that Jews have not felt unwelcome here. Go figure???

31 posted on 06/23/2004 11:14:40 AM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: Pete98

It's not just Democrats. It will take at least two generations to undo the split induced by Pat Buchanan in 1992 at the GOP convention. I know several Jews who just left the convention (and the GOP) and will never return.


32 posted on 06/23/2004 11:15:41 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Admin Moderator

Check 16, 17 and 19. churchillbuff does have an excuse. Not one I would accept, but it is an excuse, nonetheless.


33 posted on 06/23/2004 11:15:42 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: AmishDude

"And changed the title."

I went to the site and there is no change in the title that I can see.


34 posted on 06/23/2004 11:16:21 AM PDT by Bahbah
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To: Lady Heron
All you have to do is tell an evangelical is no thank you, unlike islam they will go away without beheading you.

Apparently you've never been on the receiving end of an evangelical conversion attempt. Saying it's not as bad as Islam is not much of a comfort. Even the Nazis weren't as bad as Islam.

35 posted on 06/23/2004 11:16:50 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Islam delenda est)
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To: thoughtomator

I am a Southern Baptist and I have yet to see or hear of any SBC program specifically targeting Jews. The SBC has domestic and international missions in literally thousands of places around the globe. Jews may have been mentioned along with hundreds of other people groups but I have never heard of any specific targeting of Jews. The SBC does have missionaries throughout the ME as witnessed by the murder of several in Iraq and Yemen over the past year.


36 posted on 06/23/2004 11:16:57 AM PDT by bereanway
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To: thoughtomator
"What sort of reaction would you have if another religion targeted you for conversion?"

Depending on their approach, I might find it annoying, but I wouldn't think they were doing something evil. By the way, I've never heard a Jewish person answer this question: If Judaism is for Jews only (which seems implied by Jewish reluctance to convert others to Judaism), and if Christianity and Islam are errors, what religion should the rest of us have, and where does our religion come from? Are we to be religious orphans, forever?
37 posted on 06/23/2004 11:18:05 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: thoughtomator
What sort of reaction would you have if another religion targeted you for conversion?

I tell them no thank you and get on with my life like an adult.

38 posted on 06/23/2004 11:18:07 AM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: Carly Fisher

You are wrong by any measure. Back up that crap you said with some facts for crying out loud. This ain't a chat room.


39 posted on 06/23/2004 11:18:09 AM PDT by subterfuge (Liberalism is, as liberalism does.)
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To: Steve_Seattle

I was in Hungary a few months ago. There was graffiti around that read "SPQR". Knowing what it means in Latin, is it anti-semetic?


40 posted on 06/23/2004 11:19:35 AM PDT by AmishDude
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To: thoughtomator
"the Southern Baptists specifically target Jews for conversion."

Source please.

41 posted on 06/23/2004 11:19:48 AM PDT by subterfuge (Liberalism is, as liberalism does.)
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To: churchillbuff; SJackson
The Jews had a safe home here in the colonies in the 17th century, before they had a home in Palestine in the 19th century.

Read On Two Wings a paen to the two wings of American political origins - Protestant and Jewish - written by Michael Novak, a Catholic.

Honestly, for such smart people, Jewish stupidly is going to do them in.

Let me say this slowly and clearly, American Evangelicals love Jews because our Holy Scriptures are filled with them and our founder was a Jew. If there were no Jews, there would be no Christians.

42 posted on 06/23/2004 11:20:20 AM PDT by happygrl
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To: AmishDude; Admin Moderator
You bet I do have an excuse -- the excuse that this is the title of Auster's article; I've taken it directly from the webpage: "Why Jews Welcome Muslims by Lawrence Auster ---" Why is the admin monitor not content to use the title that Frontpage gives to Auster's article? You've changed the entire tenor of his piece by -- out of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS -- CENSORING THE TITLE THAT IS ON THE WEBSITE!! "Freerepublic" goes PC, I guess.

LEt me say it again: Auster's article --- AS ITS TITLE, WHY JEWS WELCOME MUSLIMS --- is about WHY LIBERAL JEWS ARE FOR OPEN BORDERS --- the theme is NOT captured by the title that you have imposed, by censoring Auster's title.

43 posted on 06/23/2004 11:21:49 AM PDT by churchillbuff (q)
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To: churchillbuff

Ah, my beloved elder bretheren, the Islamists will gladly kill either of us; given a choice, they will kill you first.


44 posted on 06/23/2004 11:22:50 AM PDT by JimRed (Fight election fraud! Volunteer as a local poll watcher, challenger or district official.)
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To: thoughtomator
Apparently you've never been on the receiving end of an evangelical conversion attempt. Saying it's not as bad as Islam is not much of a comfort. Even the Nazis weren't as bad as Islam.

No way do I agree. Mohammedanism is the supreme enemy of Jews. We are both grown up enough to  make it clear we are not going to convert at the behest of an Evangelical. Evangelicals are about the best friends Israel has so I like and respect them. They are part of a divine plan.

45 posted on 06/23/2004 11:23:09 AM PDT by dennisw (http://www.prophetofdoom.net/)
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To: churchillbuff

"Please. Evangelism doesn't threaten anybody. ... Stop crying wolf by suggesting that evangelism by any religion is wrong or dangerous. "


Although I'm both non-Jewish and non-evangelical, I agree 100%. The Jewish folks need to be more concerned with suicide terrorists than harmless people handing out Bibles, Books of Mormon, and whatever other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses hand out.

If they don't like evangelicals, get a big barking dog - they do a good job of keeping the Mormom kids and Jeho Witnesses away.


46 posted on 06/23/2004 11:23:42 AM PDT by Blzbba
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To: Admin Moderator; AmishDude
"And changed the title." I went to the site and there is no change in the title that I can see.

That's correct. It's the Admin Moderator who- under PF pressure from AmishDude -- has changed the title that Frontpagemag gave to Auster's article. Let's be honest: THIS IS CENSORSHIP. I didn't make up Auster's title. But the Admin Moderator has suppressed it, because AmishDude pressured him into this act of censorship.

47 posted on 06/23/2004 11:25:08 AM PDT by churchillbuff (q)
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To: thoughtomator
re: How are we going to ally against Islam when evangelists work every day to sabotage the bridges between Judaism and Christianity?)))

Well, gee-- Islam is about 1.5 Billion (with a B) strong--Christianity is about 2B.

Jewry is about 15 million worldwide.

I guess Christians better start working a lot harder to get Jewish support to keep the Muslims from killing us! Better watch their step.

Otherwise, the Jews just might not want to help the Christians.

48 posted on 06/23/2004 11:25:12 AM PDT by Mamzelle (for a post-neo conservatism)
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To: AmishDude
"I was in Hungary a few months ago. There was graffiti around that read "SPQR". Knowing what it means in Latin, is it anti-semetic?"

I don't know what it means, so I can't answer your question.
49 posted on 06/23/2004 11:25:41 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Carly Fisher

Welcome to FR.


50 posted on 06/23/2004 11:25:58 AM PDT by Mamzelle (for a post-neo conservatism)
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