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Cannon win may hurt illegal-immigrant foes (Utah)
DeseretNews.com ^ | 6-26-2004 | Tad Walch and Deborah Bulkeley

Posted on 06/26/2004 9:52:50 AM PDT by madfly

OREM — Rep. Chris Cannon's radio ads in the weeks before his convincing Republican primary victory conjured up images of a vast national conspiracy mobilized against him.

"I just wish the special interests would quit their negative attacks," a woman's voice said in one radio spot for Cannon.

And it was true that for months, Cannon was attacked in the media for sponsoring a bill that would provide temporary legal status to undocumented workers.

The ads, on radio and billboards and in newspapers, were paid for by out-of-state groups that want to unseat Cannon and other like-minded Republican members of Congress to bolster their efforts to gain tighter immigration laws.

Cannon's victory may have wounded that effort, some say.

It's not known how much organizations like ProjectUSA and the Coalition for the Future American Worker spent in Utah's 3rd District Republican primary, but Cannon's camp says the total was $80,000 — more than challenger Matt Throckmorton raised and spent on his campaign.

Those efforts drew the attention of political insiders in Washington, D.C., including the Wall Street Journal's editorial page. Arizona Reps. Jeff Flake and Jim Kolbe were among those who watched with interest.

Cannon beat Throckmorton, 58 percent to 42 percent.

The Journal called it a "Throckmorton thumping" and said it should convince Republican candidates that Cannon-style immigration reform can be a political winner.

Throckmorton called the loss disappointing on a national level.

"The two races in Arizona won't be as close as this one," he predicted. "This is carte blanche. There's no incentive now not to run open-borders legislation. The political message sent is that if you run, you'll get some folks upset and you'll have to run hard, but taking that stance will have little impact."

Arizona's Flake said Cannon's victory provided a good indication of where American voters stand on immigration policy.

"I think the relatively large margin of victory and his position on the issue indicate people understand our immigration policy is a massive failure right now, at huge costs to Utah, Arizona and other states," Flake told the Deseret Morning News.

"The president has embraced meaningful immigration reform, and people want this serious issue taken seriously. People who believe we can seal the borders and throw people out aren't being serious."

Utah political strategists said Throckmorton's loss was striking because Cannon's last primary opponent, Jeremy Friedbaum in 1998, picked up 24 percent of the vote without campaigning.

"That means a quarter of Republicans in his district will always vote against Chris," said one source close to both Cannon and Throckmorton. "It's disappointing for Matt to do only 18 points better" after his campaign and other groups targeting Cannon spent $130,000 to $150,000.

However, ProjectUSA president Craig Nelsen refused to throw in the towel. In fact, he claimed in an e-mail to supporters Friday that "immigration realists scored a major victory Tuesday" because Cannon managed 58 percent of the vote.

"Here's a candidate who spent a fraction of what the incumbent did," Nelsen told the Deseret Morning News. (Cannon spent more than $300,000.) "(Throckmorton) was fighting the establishment and running basically on one issue, immigration, and got 42 percent of registered Republicans. That's hugely encouraging."

Throckmorton didn't see it that way.

"I expect over the next six months to a year we'll see some pretty sweeping bills," he said.

Cannon expected his AgJOBS bill, which would provide temporary legal status to thousands of illegal immigrants working American agricultural jobs, to come to vote in October. If successful, he planned to introduce a larger bill to similarly deal with the other 10-12 million undocumented aliens in the United States.

He believed the proposals would strengthen U.S. security by requiring registration in exchange for legal status and would fix a broken system. Opponents such as Nelsen and Throckmorton said that rewards illegal behavior and that Cannon is giving away the store. They favor stronger border restrictions.

Throckmorton also expressed concern about attempts to tighten Utah's immigration-related laws after Utah Rep. Michael Thompson's, R-Orem, upset loss on Tuesday to Lorie Fowlke.

The loss is a blow to Throckmorton's long efforts to repeal two Utah laws, one that provides drivers' licenses to illegal immigrants and another that gives in-state tuition to undocumented students who graduate from Utah high schools.

Thompson sponsored the failed bill to repeal the driver's license law last year. While immigration wasn't an issue in his campaign, Utah lawmakers will still tie the losses together, said Throckmorton, a former state legislator from Springville.

"When you run campaigns on tough issues, it's kind of winner-take-all," he said. "For other legislators, the message is pretty clear: Don't touch the issue. This will certainly have long-lasting impact."

Immigration still could become a flashpoint in the general election, where early polls show Cannon with a wide lead over Democrat Beau Babka.

Babka won't formalize an immigration policy until he meets Hispanic leaders and others, but he predicted immigration wouldn't be a key point in his campaign.

However, he did say that Cannon's policy has "dangerously ignored the need for better protection of our national borders."



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Mexico; News/Current Events; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; borders; chriscannon; electionushouse; illegalaliens; immigrantlist; immigration; rebublicanturncoats; sovereignty
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1 posted on 06/26/2004 9:52:51 AM PDT by madfly
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To: gubamyster; Spiff; HiJinx
please ping your lists.....

thanks

2 posted on 06/26/2004 9:54:14 AM PDT by madfly
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To: madfly

I know I spend to much time here one FR but I seem to sign on just after you post a new thread. How have you been?


3 posted on 06/26/2004 9:55:29 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Libertarianize the GOP
That's pretty amazing considering how little I have been posting. Getting my groove back, though.

Ha, that'll teach me not to ping ya. Nice to see you still shadow me :) hehe.

4 posted on 06/26/2004 10:01:18 AM PDT by madfly
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bttt


5 posted on 06/26/2004 10:02:50 AM PDT by DumpsterDiver ("No one is above the law in Los Angeles." Mayor James Hahn )
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To: madfly
Ugh. This makes me sick. Going after GOP incumbants in primaries is bad strategy. It is very difficult to defeat an incumbant, even an unpopular one, in a primary. A win almost never happens, but the loss becomes a huge propaganda victory for the other sides.

A better strategy is to put restrictionists into empty seats. I just hope this loss doesn't have the repercussions Throckmorton has. I'm a littled annoyed at him making such defeatist remarks. It only helps the other side.

6 posted on 06/26/2004 10:04:03 AM PDT by synwojciecha
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To: madfly

North America -- all of the countries in it -- needs an effective legal basis for creating an open-border ecnomic community. We need to find a way to legalize free travel and residency, cross-border property ownership, and legal reciprocity among the countries involved.

Why should we -- you and I -- settle for an armed-camp approach to living in our own hemisphere? Let's get the laws on all sides right, so they are fair and mutual, and then open the borders. Not all at once. But let's work for it.

The need to promote national security is a factor, in deciding how to proceed.

This is a conservative suggestion. It's based on the idea that we are all adults and can aspire to solve our international problems, without resort to Mommy (the border police, army and criminal justice system).


7 posted on 06/26/2004 10:04:25 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: madfly
It is good to see you back a little more often. You can find more on this topic with either the keyword Aliens or Election US House. The Seattle Times is going to print one of my letters to the editor in tomorrow's paper.A minor thrill for me to have a few thousand people read what I have to say. What have you been up to?
8 posted on 06/26/2004 10:08:14 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: *immigrant_list; A Navy Vet; Lion Den Dan; Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; madfly; B4Ranch; ..

ping


9 posted on 06/26/2004 10:10:35 AM PDT by gubamyster
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To: Tax Government

Well said.

(Hope you have your asbestos suit on!)


10 posted on 06/26/2004 10:11:12 AM PDT by logician2u
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To: Tax Government

We currently have MORE than enough laws on the books regarding immigration. We currently have MORE than enough laws on the books regarding what to do with illegals.

What we NEED is polititians with a little backbone to enforce existing laws.

You sound kinda line the type that wants MORE gun laws. We currently have more than enough laws pertaining to firearm ownership. If there is a problem (there isn't), it's in the ENFORCEMENT of existing laws.


11 posted on 06/26/2004 10:16:29 AM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: taxed2death
You sound kinda line the type that wants MORE gun laws

No, never. I totally support gun ownership by the general population, concealed carry, and the Second Amendment.

12 posted on 06/26/2004 10:21:33 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government

To which country in this hemisphere do you want the USA to be more similar? Is our crime rate not enough like Mexicos? Our school system success not enough like that of El Salvador? Our language not Spanish enough?


13 posted on 06/26/2004 10:26:38 AM PDT by dagnabbit (Islamic Immigration is the West's Suicide)
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To: dagnabbit
To which country in this hemisphere do you want the USA to be more similar?

None. I want us to evolve in parallel to something better than we are now.

14 posted on 06/26/2004 10:28:17 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government

North America -- all of the countries in it -- needs an effective legal basis for creating an open-border ecnomic community.

Find another country, since you don't care much for this one.

This is a conservative suggestion. It's based on the idea that we are all adults and can aspire to solve our international problems, without resort to Mommy (the border police, army and criminal justice system).

Don't throw your shoulders out patting yourself on the back.

The lone legitimate purpose of government is to protect the sovereign integrity of a nation, which is defined by our culture, our laws, and our borders. It's neither conservative, nor American, to take the position that you do, that not even our sovereignty is worth preserving.

Dissolve our borders and you court civil war, because not everyone here will so casually throw away what you and the likes of Chris Cannon fail to appreciate, and the lawless newcomers won't be satisfied with the appeasments you'd offer. Look to Israel, Kosovo, and South Africa for the Historical lessons.


15 posted on 06/26/2004 10:30:23 AM PDT by Sabertooth (Mohammedanism is an evil empire.)
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To: Tax Government
None. I want us to evolve in parallel to something better than we are now.

Merging our society with a bunch of third-world ones isn't the route I'd pick.

16 posted on 06/26/2004 10:30:54 AM PDT by dagnabbit (Islamic Immigration is the West's Suicide)
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To: Tax Government

While we're "evolving", I'll assume the financial burden will all fall on the US tax payers shoulders. No thanks.


17 posted on 06/26/2004 10:32:52 AM PDT by monkeywrench
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To: monkeywrench
While we're "evolving", I'll assume the financial burden will all fall on the US tax payers shoulders. No thanks.

You assume incorrectly.

18 posted on 06/26/2004 10:34:31 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government

"Let's get the laws on all sides right, so they are fair and mutual, and then open the borders."

Let's stomp out AIDS, world hunger, and poverty while we're at it, too.


19 posted on 06/26/2004 10:35:39 AM PDT by brianl703
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To: brianl703
Let's stomp out AIDS, world hunger, and poverty while we're at it, too.

Sounds like you're working on a plan. Are you?

20 posted on 06/26/2004 10:37:04 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government
I just walked to the closet and put on the "My President is George W. Bush" t-shirt to remind myself I'm more conservative than some of you. By a whole bunch.
21 posted on 06/26/2004 10:39:36 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Sabertooth
...the likes of Chris Cannon fail to appreciate...

We can spending our time lamenting what Chris Cannon and that poster fail to appreciate but the sad fact of the matter is that in the most conservative state in the country, in the most conservative primary in that state, the anti-illegal immigration candidate only got 42% of the vote.

22 posted on 06/26/2004 10:45:36 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: FreeReign

Post #22 spending ---> spend


23 posted on 06/26/2004 10:47:38 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Tax Government
Another adherent to the religion of Free Trading, willing to trash the legacy of our ancestors (defending America's independence and sovereignty) for the sake of material profit. NAFTA's been in place for over ten years and all it has accomplished is increased illegal immigration, resultant billions flowing out never to be seen again and rampant corruption of government and businesses. In exchange we receive slightly cheaper goods and services while lesser skilled and educated citizens lose their limited opportunities to invaders willing to live in sardine-can conditions.

You work for open borders all you like and say hello to the boys in blue helmets while you're at it. If you do make sure you're clear of the fire they will draw.

24 posted on 06/26/2004 10:49:27 AM PDT by NewRomeTacitus (Don't make me come down there and put panties on your head.)
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To: FreeReign
the sad fact of the matter is that in the most conservative state in the country, in the most conservative primary in that state, the anti-illegal immigration candidate only got 42% of the vote.

While that outcome is certainly a setback, we should understand that all it means is that Chris Cannon successfully lied about his pro-Amnesty stance on Illegals.

Cannon wants to legalize Illegals while pretending he doesn't favor Amnesty. Clearly, if Cannon thought he could win by being honest about his record, he'd have done so.

So, a sober analyisis of this primary doesn't support the notion that it's electorally safe for Republicans to openly support Amnesty.

That's why pro-Amnesty Republicans squeal so loudly anytime they are called on the facts.


25 posted on 06/26/2004 10:52:36 AM PDT by Sabertooth (Mohammedanism is an evil empire.)
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To: FreeReign

... and in the most conservative district in that state... actually, 42% is a good accomplishment for the challenger to the incumbant. Utah has a relatively low number of illegals compared to most states, and if this were a one issue primary, Throckmorton can be proud of the outcome.

I believe many of the voters of the district went with who they knew.


26 posted on 06/26/2004 10:53:04 AM PDT by glock rocks (I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything.)
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To: Tax Government
None. I want us to evolve in parallel to something better than we are now.

I don't think that would be Mexico though that we should merge with --- have you been in the slums of Mexico City any time lately? Why import all that here?

27 posted on 06/26/2004 10:55:01 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Tax Government

I find your liberal views to be both naive and suicidal.

You are right, a world without borders would be a wonderful proof of the power of freedom. Unfortunately you minimize the overwhelming security risks of proceeding too rapidly in that direction.

The American experiment in democratic institutions is in its embryonic stages. It remains to be seen whether such a state can survive in a world where power is measured by strength.

Will the citizens of a free state, having achieved economic vitality and the comforts of civilization, jealously protect the freedoms that are the source of that well being; or will those same people retreat from the strenuous efforts required to assure survival simply because they have become passive in their leisure?

Will the America which exists as a product of open borders in a hundred years be composed of citizens who appreciate liberty and the opportunities it brings or will the population, overcome with a lazy sense of entitlement, slowly yield it's freedoms to those who thirst for power, and for nothing more than a little bread and entertainment?


28 posted on 06/26/2004 10:58:31 AM PDT by concentric circles
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To: Tax Government
Why should we -- you and I -- settle for an armed-camp approach to living in our own hemisphere?

Silvestre Reyes was elected to Congress and by a hispanic region just because he did do something to close the borders. There isn't anyone living along the border who wants the border more open --- compare the crime rate of a city like Ciudad Juarez with El Paso's.

Until Mexico fixes up it's own society and culture none of what you propose is feasible --- and Vicente Fox is doing nothing except make things worse so more people leave --- it's own citizens are willing to die to leave that country --- how can we be be more open with a garbage-pit like that?

29 posted on 06/26/2004 10:59:26 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: FreeReign

A previous article indicated that Cannon only won because of rural areas countering the urban ones. Rural areas where illegal aliens are used as agricultural machinery.

Throckmorton is suffering the post-election loss blues and shouldn't be spreading defeatism. He (and anyone else running) should focus on the reasons and adjust tactics to compensate for incumbants courting corruption.


30 posted on 06/26/2004 11:02:36 AM PDT by NewRomeTacitus (Don't make me come down there and put panties on your head.)
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To: Libertarianize the GOP
Thanks. That's great. Maybe you can post the letter in "chat" and ping us!!

When I do drop in to post I can only post 1 article. Second try always gets a perl error message saying "no data in form". Have to log off/on to post 2.

freepmail me a copy of the letter please. :)

31 posted on 06/26/2004 11:03:36 AM PDT by madfly
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To: Sabertooth
Cannon wants to legalize Illegals while pretending he doesn't favor Amnesty. Clearly, if Cannon thought he could win by being honest about his record, he'd have done so. So, a sober analyisis of this primary doesn't support the notion that it's electorally safe for Republicans to openly support Amnesty.

Whether Cannon lied about his record or not, it is the voters responsibly to determine what the candidates record is.

The sad fact remains, in the most conservative state in the country, in the most conservative district in that state and in the most conservative party primary in that district, the anti-illegal candidate got only 42% of the vote.

32 posted on 06/26/2004 11:17:43 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Tax Government
"While we're "evolving", I'll assume the financial burden will all fall on the US tax payers shoulders. No thanks."

"You assume incorrectly"

When will the burden be lifted? (Probably not until we get fed up enough and throw the weight off, ourselves.) 'Sounds like you're working on a plan', what is it?

33 posted on 06/26/2004 11:18:20 AM PDT by monkeywrench
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To: Tax Government

Have you deeply researched the NWO plan? Start immediately!


34 posted on 06/26/2004 11:18:42 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: NewRomeTacitus
A previous article indicated that Cannon only won because of rural areas countering the urban ones. Rural areas where illegal aliens are used as agricultural machinery.

Strangely, lots of conservatives don't mind illegal immigration as you note with your above example and also, lots of liberals do mind illegal immigration.

That's why the R's can't get any traction on this and that's why the R pols don't bother.

35 posted on 06/26/2004 11:20:55 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: NewRomeTacitus

This country's Federal government and major political parties have SOLD OUT their obligation to protect and defend the Constitution, for more than a century. The two major parties are far worse than simply UNWILLING to support the Constitution -- are the major OBSTRUCTORS to its enforcement.

So, what, pray tell, should well-meaning people propose to defend? The government status quo, which is obstructing the Constitution, or provisions of the Constitution itself?

I choose to defend the principles of the Constitution: the right of states to determine the majority of what occurs in side them, the right to own property, the right to a solid, gold-based currency, the right to speech and freedom of expression, the right to bear arms, and the rest.

I don't choose to defend border against Spanish speakers, if they present a valid visa. And I don't propose to defend English (unless you can find that in the Constitution).


36 posted on 06/26/2004 11:35:01 AM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government
' I'd like to teach, the world to sing, in perfect harmone-e-e-e-e-y

Hey Mr Globalist ... when I start to see the Tyrants who have had Mexico under their heel since forever, and kept it locked up in a Turd-World hole ... when I start to see some democracy, freedom and a Middle Class evolving down there, I'll START to consider taking the locks off my doors and leaving my house open to anyone who wishes to come and go ... I'm sure you've already done this for your family, right ??

... all together now ... ' I'd like to teach, the world to sing, in perfect harmone-e-e-e-y'

37 posted on 06/26/2004 11:44:13 AM PDT by CIBvet (It's about preserving OUR Borders, OUR Language and OUR American Culture)
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To: FreeReign
Whether Cannon lied about his record or not, it is the voters responsibly to determine what the candidates record is.

The lie is not beside the point, it's the central point. Cannon lied because he had to, because he knew that his pro-Amnesty stance was a liability.

Voters aren't always up to speed; this is news?

The sad fact remains, in the most conservative state in the country, in the most conservative district in that state and in the most conservative party primary in that district, the anti-illegal candidate got only 42% of the vote.

Well, you can mope round and fixate on that. To what end?

Stay on message: Chris Cannon is a pro-Amnesty liar.


38 posted on 06/26/2004 11:45:29 AM PDT by Sabertooth (Mohammedanism is an evil empire.)
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To: Tax Government
I choose to defend the principles of the Constitution: the right of states to determine the majority of what occurs in side them, the right to own property, the right to a solid, gold-based currency, the right to speech and freedom of expression, the right to bear arms, and the rest.

The power of Congress to regulate immigration and naturalization is also in the Constitution. Why is that principle so unimportant to you?

I don't choose to defend border against Spanish speakers, if they present a valid visa. And I don't propose to defend English (unless you can find that in the Constitution).

Would you be willing to put forth your Appeasement proposals to the citizens of the various states on straight up-or-down votes ?


39 posted on 06/26/2004 11:50:37 AM PDT by Sabertooth (Mohammedanism is an evil empire.)
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To: NewRomeTacitus

Also, the continual smear attempts by Cannon and the WSJ aren't mentioned. This mostly coherent smear probably didn't help either: http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2004/feat_2004-06-17.cfm


40 posted on 06/26/2004 11:56:09 AM PDT by lonewacko_dot_com (http://lonewacko.com/blog)
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To: Tax Government
"Let's get the laws on all sides right, so they are fair and mutual, and then open the borders. Not all at once. But let's work for it."

This daydream is the primary reason why I left the Libertarian Party. Now I find the Republican Party is adopting open border policy without the few qualifiers the Libertarians called for and abandoning conservatism in general. Due to political realities they continue to garner my national support and votes but my local support goes to those looking out for the Constitutional principals you speak of. Abiding invaders for profit has no place in it.

41 posted on 06/26/2004 12:00:18 PM PDT by NewRomeTacitus (Don't make me come down there and put panties on your head.)
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To: concentric circles

This is the second time this week, that I have seen the words "American experiment" on FR. The first time was when Al Gore stated that Bush was hurting the American experiment.

At that time I looked it up on google and found many different opinions. Can you reference or link any articles regarding this?


42 posted on 06/26/2004 2:35:11 PM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: Sabertooth
The power of Congress to regulate immigration and naturalization is also in the Constitution. Why is that principle so unimportant to you?

It's important; never said otherwise. Sheesh...

Would you be willing to put forth your Appeasement proposals...

No appeasement proposals. Sheesh again.

God, it must be embarrassing to keep asserting people say things they never said. How do you handle it?

43 posted on 06/26/2004 3:08:02 PM PDT by Tax Government
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To: madfly
Cannon expected his AgJOBS bill, which would provide temporary legal status to thousands of illegal immigrants working American agricultural jobs, to come to vote in October. If successful, he planned to introduce a larger bill to similarly deal with the other 10-12 million undocumented aliens in the United States. He believed the proposals would strengthen U.S. security by requiring registration in exchange for legal status and would fix a broken system... The loss is a blow to Throckmorton's long efforts to repeal two Utah laws, one that provides drivers' licenses to illegal immigrants and another that gives in-state tuition to undocumented students who graduate from Utah high schools.
That should read, "gives in-state tuition rates", not the same thing.
George W. Bush will be reelected by a margin of at least ten per cent

44 posted on 06/26/2004 3:28:05 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: All
from the "mostly coherent smear" [sic]
"It gives you the chills," Stephenson says of his reaction. "To think that human beings this long after Hitler actually have those feelings about nonwhites. It’s blood-chilling to hear their venom." Stephenson is talking about the anti-immigration movemen

George W. Bush will be reelected by a margin of at least ten per cent

45 posted on 06/26/2004 3:31:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: synwojciecha

I understand your argument, and there's something to it.

On the other hand, the need isn't to get half a dozen more restrictionists into Congress every two years -- that would be as slow as watching paint dry. It would be best to make dozens of Republican incumbents feel the heat. And the way you do that is by beating a few of them.

As is so often the case, doing what's easy has little payoff. Doing what's hard has a big payoff, if you succeed. Perhaps all that was needed to dump Mr. Cannon was more money and more grassroots volunteers. Sooner or later, with enough muscle, we can beat one of these incumbents. We just need to get into the gym.


46 posted on 06/26/2004 3:36:09 PM PDT by California Patriot (California Patriot)
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To: Tax Government
It's important; never said otherwise. Sheesh...

You at #36:

"I don't choose to defend border against Spanish speakers, if they present a valid visa. And I don't propose to defend English (unless you can find that in the Constitution)."

The power to regulate immigration and naturalization belongs to Congress, and the power to regulate what language is spoken by legal immigrants is implicit in that power.

No appeasement proposals. Sheesh again.

God, it must be embarrassing to keep asserting people say things they never said. How do you handle it?

You at #7:

"North America -- all of the countries in it -- needs an effective legal basis for creating an open-border ecnomic community. We need to find a way to legalize free travel and residency, cross-border property ownership, and legal reciprocity among the countries involved."

That's appeasement, and you're all for it.

You want to throw in the towel and let the borders wide open. Be honest. Own the reality your position. Have the guts your boy Cannon doesn't.


47 posted on 06/26/2004 3:46:37 PM PDT by Sabertooth (Mohammedanism is an evil empire.)
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To: NewRomeTacitus

Thanks for the message, NewRomeTacitus.

To everybody, not just NewRomeTacitus...

Imho, the U.S. has brought a good share of the border problem upon itself. (Any reflexive flamers, stop reading now and just hit the "Post" button.)

HOW the problem originated is as follows.

The U.S. has been working a big financial Ponzi scheme on the world, ever since the mid-1910s enactment of a fiat-currency system. I consider the Depression to be a major effect of the government's attempt to manipulate the currency.

Since the founding of the Federal Reserve System, the U.S. has become a fountain of counterfeit green money, reducing the value of an individual dollar, but vastly increasing Americans' buying power for goods made in other countries. (Americans are near the fountain of fake dollars; even if a single fake dollar is worth less, Americans continually have MORE fake dollars than the rest of the world. Hence, we have more buying power.)

Our currency scheme is indeed fraudulent and clearly un-Constitutional. It has the effect of transferring wealth from citizens, to a relatively few selected institutions (large banks and the largest corporations). But, since we mostly own leveraged real estate whose equity benefits from inflation and the fiat currency system, WE'VE BEEN BOUGHT OFF. We're complicit...we who have stood quietly by while our currency has been made a shambles. History will LAUGH at us all, for standing by while this happened, all the while pretending to be faithful adherents to our own Constitution.

Actually, history will SCORN us, for being such adept liars, willing to mouth adherence to constitutional principles, while profiting hugely by ignoring their implementation.

The flood of immigrants here from Mexico is due to two things: 1) they see the higher salaries here and want to participate, so they come. 2) the country lets them get away with it. Are Mexicans breaking the law? (Yes.) Is our government running a Ponzi scheme that induces them to come?(Yes.) Are we unwilling to end the Ponzi scheme, preferring to profit from it, and treat the Mexican illegal immigration as an annoying side effect? (Yes.) Would we prefer a $30K Lexus over a $200K one; would we prefer a $7/hour Mexican gardener over a Union-scale one? (Yes.)

How does one end the Ponzi scheme without a financial disaster? By spreading its effects out over the world, equalizing its effect, so there is no single place that profits or suffers from shutting it down.


48 posted on 06/26/2004 3:47:28 PM PDT by Tax Government
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To: Tax Government
Since the founding of the Federal Reserve System, the U.S. has become a fountain of counterfeit green money, reducing the value of an individual dollar, but vastly increasing Americans' buying power for goods made in other countries. (Americans are near the fountain of fake dollars; even if a single fake dollar is worth less, Americans continually have MORE fake dollars than the rest of the world. Hence, we have more buying power.)

Our currency scheme is indeed fraudulent and clearly un-Constitutional. It has the effect of transferring wealth from citizens, to a relatively few selected institutions (large banks and the largest corporations). But, since we mostly own leveraged real estate whose equity benefits from inflation and the fiat currency system, WE'VE BEEN BOUGHT OFF. We're complicit...we who have stood quietly by while our currency has been made a shambles. History will LAUGH at us all, for standing by while this happened, all the while pretending to be faithful adherents to our own Constitution.

You're an open borders gold bug. Hoo haw.

The flood of immigrants here from Mexico is due to two things: 1) they see the higher salaries here and want to participate, so they come. 2) the country lets them get away with it. Are Mexicans breaking the law? (Yes.) Is our government running a Ponzi scheme that induces them to come?(Yes.) Are we unwilling to end the Ponzi scheme, preferring to profit from it, and treat the Mexican illegal immigration as an annoying side effect? (Yes.) Would we prefer a $30K Lexus over a $200K one; would we prefer a $7/hour Mexican gardener over a Union-scale one? (Yes.)

How does one end the Ponzi scheme without a financial disaster? By spreading its effects out over the world, equalizing its effect, so there is no single place that profits or suffers from shutting it down.

OK, Gold Bug, what's the point of abetting what you hold to be an unconstitutional currency system and Ponzi scheme by dissolving our borders and sovereignty to finance and maintain it?

Yet that's what you support.

The reason the two parties appease Illegals (as you desire) and support Amnesty (as you do) is to support the Ponzi scheme beyond our lifetimes (which you claim to oppose).

If you don't like the Ponzi scheme, don't put it on life support with open borders.


49 posted on 06/26/2004 3:57:26 PM PDT by Sabertooth (Mohammedanism is an evil empire.)
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To: Sabertooth
...the power to regulate what language is spoken by legal immigrants is implicit in that power.

Once in a while, I get to remind people about the First Amendment. It's disappointing when people who style themselves as conservatve cats think government can control what language they use. Glad I live in America, own a gun, and can tell them "scr*w you" in three or four languages.

50 posted on 06/26/2004 4:01:03 PM PDT by Tax Government
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