Green Bullets not so green

XEHRpa

[XEHRpa]

I had the opportunity to hear a talk by a US Army scientist (pathologist??) from an Army medical laboratory based in Bethesda, Maryland the other day, and the topic was quite eye-opening. I should add the disclaimer that I am not in the medical field, but rather in the terminal ballistics research area for the US military.

Since the author indicated the result will soon be sent to the open literature journals, and since the audience was international, I feel free to reveal some of what he related.

As background, there is this ongoing struggle in the military community to find a suitable replacement for depleted uranium (DU) munitions, as the environmental lobby and all of our international allies scream bloody murder over the evils of DU (which is what's left after enriched nuclear fuel is extracted... meaning it is far less radioactive than the naturally occuring stuff).

The US is the only purveyor of DU bullets (i.e., tank or aircraft launched large-cal bullets)... the rest of the green world uses tungsten alloys as a "green" alternative. The problem is, the US maintains that DU bullets are slightly better than their tungsten equivalents, and so has resisted the green-lobby's efforts to force us out of DU munitions production.

In this context, and in the aftermath of Gulf War I friendly-fire incidents where US soldiers survived attack by DU munitions (but received inextractable numbers of embedded fragments), the question arose amongst these soldiers "am I gonna die of cancer?" The problem was further exacerbated by the rumor that Gulf War Syndrome was caused by DU contamination, though as an aside (not part of this talk, but added by myself) recent result indicate that it is the result of low-level nerve agent poisoning from destroying Saddam's stockpiles.

Anyhow, after the Army failed to respond promply to the inquiries, these soldiers went through their Congressmen to get funded a program through the speaker's agency to test in rats the effects of embedded DU. As an afterthought, they expanded the program to include militarily relevant tungsten alloys, since these are supposedly the green alternatives to DU.

Well, to the the shocking surprise of all, the tungsten alloys embedded in the rats have proven more carcenogenically toxic than the toxic standard (which is nickel), providing 100% cancer rates in the rat pool within a 6 month window. By contrast, DU, has shown zero carcinogenic effects relative to the control metal(tantalum).

While the US is the only country that uses DU munitions, 30 countries manufacture tungsten munitions and 70 countries utilize them. While the Army heirarchy hasn't seemed to grasp the full implications of this result yet, I predict that this research will have major implications on the future of US and world munitions.

And once again, the environmentalists have led us and our allies down the wrong path. An interesting anecdote told by the researcher (unrelated to his research) was about a civilian test range in Massachusetts that went from lead bullets to tungsten bullets, because lead levels in the local water supply were becoming elevated. What happened was that the tungsten lowered the pH in the soil, thus allowing more lead to leach out, and the lead levels thus went up after discontinuing lead bullets. Interesting lessons to be learned regarding true versus knee-jerk environmentalism. And as far as DU munitions go, I'm for what best defeats our enemies, which in this case, and to the surprise of the community, seems to also be the more environmental alternative which is DU.

[Phsstpok]

unintended consequences ping

[E. Pluribus Unum]

Facts don't matter.

When science illiterates hear the word "uranium," nothing else will penetrate their brain cell.

[Wally_Kalbacken]

I'm no ballistics expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night - so what is the advantage that depleted uranium give the munitions - is it ability to pierce armor? What is the mechanism by which it penetrates armor better than the alternatives? TIA

[TYVets]

Put the environmentalists on the front lines where they can be human shields for our military.

Or put them on the point armed with paint ball guns.

[Djarum]

Bang!

[OSHA]

Paint the DU projectiles green and viola, green bullets!

[XEHRpa]

Yes, it has to do with penetration ability. It appears that the reason has to do with the microstructural failure mechanisms of the respective materials, in that tungsten forms a bulbous flow at the rod/target interface that tends to make the crater slightly wider, at the expense of deeper.

[Boundless]

> unintended consequences ping

Uh oh. Aren't the "HeavyShot" shotgun pellets
made of tungsten?

HS is sold as an alternative to steel shot,
and has superior ballistics, but if it's
dangerous to eat the game you shoot with it
(due to risk of pellet ingestion) ...

What's left to try, osmium?

[Boundless]

> ... so what is the advantage that depleted
> uranium give the munitions ...

vs. lead?
Denser (65%), harder, pyrophoric

Kills tanks dead, on contact
(say isn't that a bug spray tag line?)

[SAJ]

Very likely, the fact that uranium is the heaviest naturally occurring element has a good deal to do with it. At the same muzzle velocity as a projectile made of other material(s), a DU projectile of the same size/caliber carries multiplicatively more momentum. Doubtless costs a bit more in the raw cost of propulsion, whether powder or another substance, but packs a heck of a punch. The A-10 Warthog's cannon uses DU shells, and these go through the (typical) thin armour plate atop tanks just like a hot knife through butter, but with much nastier consequences.

BTW, the radioactivity level of DU is next to nothing; you can probably get more exposure to radioactivity by tending a garden in Denver than by playing cards on top of a case of DU ammo.

[ko_kyi]

I have read that since it is both denser than lead and about as hard as steel it is the best armor-piercing material.

[Max Combined]

"is the advantage that depleted uranium give the munitions"

Density.

[Paradox]

Figures, the "green" movement isn't about getting results, its about combating technological progress. Thanks for this report, kudos to ya!

[TERMINATTOR]

Don't eat em. Miss Manners leaves her depleated uranium and tungsten pellets on the side of her plate.

[E. Pluribus Unum]

What is the mechanism by which it penetrates armor better than the alternatives?

"A heavy metal with very high density (1.7 times heavier than lead), DU has high kinetic energy for its volume. And thanks to its unique properties, DU actually sustains its own combustion when ignited, which enables it to literally melt and "sharpen" as it penetrates armor, increasing its destructive capabilities."

[El Sordo]

Material properties. Specifically it's deformation characteristics and its density, I believe. DU is very dense and can delivery far more energy to the target.

[RippleFire]

bump

[knarf]

"as the environmental lobby and all of our international allies scream bloody murder over the evils of DU (which is what's left after enriched nuclear fuel is extracted... meaning it is far less radioactive than the naturally occuring stuff)."

I know, I know ... it's excerpted and I'm thinking out of context ... but ... just think about that phrase.

Priceless.

Now I'll go and read the entire article.

[supercat]

Very likely, the fact that uranium is the heaviest naturally occurring element has a good deal to do with it.

I thought gold, platinum, osmium, and irridium were more dense. Though I'd wonder what was in the pipe of anyone who suggested those as alternatives to depleted uranium.

[Gorzaloon]

what is the advantage that depleted uranium give the munitions - is it ability to pierce armor? What is the mechanism by which it penetrates armor better than the alternatives?

While the densities are similar (W=19.25, U=18.7), DU is a pyrophore during and after penetration. Think of the penetrator as a BIG lighter flint. By the time it goes through armor plate, it is hot and burning. It consumes all the oxygen in the tank immediately, while raising the inside temperatures to the point the munitions cook off, or are set off by pieces of burning uranium. In Desert Storm there were impressive vidoes of tanks that were hit, whose propellants had gone off....Jets of supersonic flame squirting out of all the spaces in the turret bearing- Just before the turret in its entirety turned into a UFO, much like a beer can on top of a cherry bomb.

Years ago I worked on HEAT/T 105. I would rather run around a battle stark naked than get into a tank after some of the effects I saw.

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT

[supercat]

//By the time it goes through armor plate, it is hot and burning. It consumes all the oxygen in the tank immediately, while raising the inside temperatures to the point the munitions cook off, or are set off by pieces of burning uranium.//

So is the issue that uranium vaporizes, and this vapor is flammable, or what? Uranium will need oxygen surface area to burn. How does the energy per mole of uranium compare with that of, say, magnesium?

[neverdem]

From time to time, I’ll post or ping on noteworthy articles about politics and foreign and military affairs. Let me know if you want off my list.

I went to a lecture given by the former Surgeon General of the U.S. Army, Ronald R. Blanck, LTG (ret.). During the Q & A, I asked what's with the toxicity of depleted uranium(DU). He said it was mainly kidney failure, just like other heavy metals, e.g. cadmium, etc. can cause. Where other shrapnel would otherwise be ignored if it's not causing any complications, DU must be surgically removed.

[Squantos]

I think the counterweights used for commercial aircraft (weight and balance datum stuff ) are still made of DU. Anyone know ? Close down the airline industry if it's that dangerous ..........:o)

Stay safe !

[genefromjersey]

That was exceptionally interesting !

[R. Scott]

With China being a major supplier of tungsten to the US (49% of imported tungsten) some people will be very annoyed if we stop making tungsten ammo.

[XEHRpa]

Where other shrapnel would otherwise be ignored if it's not causing any complications, DU must be surgically removed.

Well, the speaker indicated that Army medical doctrine (with which I am totally unfamiliar) was that all shrapnel (DU inclluded)was only removed if it was near or in a vital organ, or in a joint. One of the reasons for the study was to ascertain whether that doctrine was sufficient to address the DU concerns. Apparently, with the tungsten, massive fast-growing tumors resulted in the rats in the vicinity of the tungsten implant, and worse still, the cancer metasticized (sp?) in the lung tissue. Really nasty stuff.

[kitchen]

Interesting on several counts.

[B4Ranch]

>>Think of the penetrator as a BIG lighter flint.<<

Now you are getting down to an actual picture even I can formulte in my head. Excellent explanation. Thank you.

[JerseyHighlander]

So which company procures and manufactures DU? Is it publicly traded?

[neverdem]

There was only one article I could find at PubMed for "depleted uranium AND renal(kidney) failure". You can find 67 articles if you type in "uranium AND (renal failure OR kidney failure)" If you try typing an entry next to "for" omit the quotation marks. Sometimes you find a whole article linked to an abstract.

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 Show: 

1: J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2004 Jul-Aug;7(4):297-317.

Related Articles,Links

Depleted and natural uranium: chemistry and toxicological effects.

Craft E, Abu-Qare A, Flaherty M, Garofolo M, Rincavage H, Abou-Donia M.

Nicholas School of the Environment and Earth Sciences, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina 27710, USA.

Depleted uranium (DU) is a by-product from the chemical enrichment of naturally occurring uranium. Natural uranium is comprised of three radioactive isotopes: (238)U, (235)U, and (234)U. This enrichment process reduces the radioactivity of DU to roughly 30% of that of natural uranium. Nonmilitary uses of DU include counterweights in airplanes, shields against radiation in medical radiotherapy units and transport of radioactive isotopes. DU has also been used during wartime in heavy tank armor, armor-piercing bullets, and missiles, due to its desirable chemical properties coupled with its decreased radioactivity. DU weapons are used unreservedly by the armed forces. Chemically and toxicologically, DU behaves similarly to natural uranium metal. Although the effects of DU on human health are not easily discerned, they may be produced by both its chemical and radiological properties. DU can be toxic to many bodily systems, as presented in this review. Most importantly, normal functioning of the kidney, brain, liver, and heart can be affected by DU exposure. Numerous other systems can also be affected by DU exposure, and these are also reviewed. Despite the prevalence of DU usage in many applications, limited data exist regarding the toxicological consequences on human health. This review focuses on the chemistry, pharmacokinetics, and toxicological effects of depleted and natural uranium on several systems in the mammalian body. A section on risk assessment concludes the review.

PMID: 15205046 [PubMed - in process]

---

 Show: 

 

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Jun 7 2004 18:11:57

[neverdem]

So which company procures and manufactures DU? Is it publicly traded?

Whoever has the contract to make enriched uranium for the Department of Energy or nuclear power plants, makes DU as a by product.

[patton]

No.

[DannyTN]

Can't we call it something else other than DU? That has such a negative connotation.

[supercat]

From webelements.com, I get the following bulk densities (kg/m³)

Element	Density
Uranium	19,050
Tungsten	19,250
Rhenium	21,020
Osmium	22,610
Irridium	22,650
Platinum	21,090
Gold	19,300

Is the webelements.com data inaccurate?

[patton]

No, everything I know is wrong, and U234 is lighter than PT76 or AU whatever. Also, our metric for a solar day is four minutes too long.

[Gorzaloon]

So is the issue that uranium vaporizes, and this vapor is flammable, or what? Uranium will need oxygen surface area to burn. How does the energy per mole of uranium compare with that of, say, magnesium?

It is not the caloric energy so much as the temperature of combustion (~3000+°K) and the ease of ignition. Uranium metal oxidizes readily in air. The clean, bright metal, in a day, is coated with the black oxide. I am not sure this combustion is exactly a vapor, though there is probably vapor at the flame/droplet interface. Were it not for the radioactivity, it would work well in pyrotechnics...Probably would burn like titanium does in the newer "stars", but easier to ignite, lacking Ti's passive coating. The UO2/U3O8 is not passive..it grows thicker on longer exposure. One place that made DU kinetic penetrators got into Profound Excrement because they had it stacked outside by the ton. Acid rain did an extraction, and loaded the ground with U. The Boston Globe breathlessly reported that "Radium 226 was found, also!! We did not know they used THAT too!" Radium is in the decay series...had they looked they would have found everything down to lead.

I met their RSO shortly after the flap erupted. Poor guy had a white ring around his mouth from guzzling Maalox.

[punster]

Of course, you also have to remember that some of the greens also fell for the "Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide" Campaign.

BTW: What is dihydrogen monoxide?

[supercat]

Also, our metric for a solar day is four minutes too long.

Oh really? The solar day does not match the Earth's period of rotation, but I don't know that means it's "too long". Seems to me that having time based upon solar days is much more useful than having time based upon rotations.

[supercat]

Of course, you also have to remember that some of the greens also fell for the "Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide" Campaign.

I prefer "Hydrogen hydroxide" myself. The use of quantitative prefixes in "dihydrogen monoxide" is contrary to standard naming conventions; describing an OH-containing compund by the name of the anion plus "hydroxide" is, by contrast, much more common (of course, assuming the anion isn't hydrogen"). Of course, I suppose one could also go with "hydroxic acide", using the naming principle that hydrogen plus a cation should be called "[cation] acid". Though IMHO hydrogen hydroxide sounds nastier.

Hydrogen hydroxide also has the advantage that even people who know that water is H2O might not recognize it as HOH, and might easily be persuaded that HOH is a distinct allotrope [is that the word--used to describe different compunds with the same constituents?].

[Jorge]

...the tungsten alloys embedded in the rats have proven more carcenogenically toxic than the toxic standard (which is nickel), providing 100% cancer rates in the rat pool within a 6 month window. By contrast, DU, has shown zero carcinogenic effects relative to the control metal(tantalum).

I ALWAYS said I would rather be shot by a DU bullet than those tungsten alloy types. OK?

[lizma]

When in the heck was Blank surgeon general? I don't remember this guy at all

.What gives ????

[neverdem]

When in the heck was Blank surgeon general? I don't remember this guy at all.

Ron Blanck was the Army's Surgeon General in the late nineties maybe up to the first years of this decade, in that time frame. You might be thinking of the U.S. Surgeon General. That's with the Public Health Service.

[SAJ]

They are (not certain about iridium, but it's easily looked up). That's fine, but doesn't matter regarding materials used for warheads.

Never confuse gross weight with density. Uranium does not have the highest density; that property belongs to osmium. DENSITY is weight per unit volume.

It **do** make a difference, too. Clearly, a denser material used as the warhead in a projectile will occupy less physical space than a less-dense material, and may have superior ballistic characteristics, but destruction is wrought by the application of kinetic energy to a target -- in short, throw heavy rocks, not dense ones, if you want to batter down a wall (or penetrate armour). Osmium, never mind expense, will penetrate armour at least as well as uranium...but the hole will be smaller (MUCH smaller on a cost per projectile basis).

The mission is just to kill the SOBs, and DU (afaik, and I'm certain there are numerous FReepers more well-informed on this point than I) gets the job done VERY nicelym and reasonably cost-effectively too.

[rmlew]

It is denser and harder than lead , allowing for greater penetration. Moreover, uranium burns HOT after such a penetration, incrasing leathality to targets.

[rmlew]

it would also do unpleasent thing when it penetrates, becoming a burning jet.

[XEHRpa]

in short, throw heavy rocks, not dense ones, if you want to batter down a wall (or penetrate armour)

True, however...

at least in the case of tank ammunition, bullet length is a prime engineering constraint, and so for circumstances where length is constrained, dense is better. In the hydrodynamic limit (i.e., at high velocities of impact) penetration is proportional to the square root of density. At ordnance velocities, strength places an increasing role, but density remains paramount.

[XEHRpa]

Very likely, the fact that uranium is the heaviest naturally occurring element has a good deal to do with it.

True. See post 48.

[hershey]

We'll have to use wooden bullets.