Skip to comments.The Abortion Issue Has Little, if Any, Effect on the Catholic Vote
Posted on 06/28/2004 9:20:04 PM PDT by Coleus
Few are swayed by a candidate's pro-choice policy.
"Will Catholics vote against Gov. Carter, Mr. Mayor, because of his abortion stand?" The mayor of Chicago stared at the reporter with the bemused frown he reserved for silly questions. "They don't vote that way." Twenty-eight years later, they still don't vote that way. Nevertheless, in the run-up to the last seven presidential elections, experts on both sides have predicted that the "Catholic anti-abortion" vote would cause trouble for the Democrats, especially given the drift of Catholics from Democratic alignment. Both these "theories" a Catholic anti-abortion vote and a Catholic realignment are urban folk tales that float around in the collective consciousness of the media with very little basis in fact.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
If the LA Slimes is printing it, we can safely asume its false.
I don't know a many ACTUAL Catholics who would knowingly vote for a pro-abortion politician. If they hated the pro-life candidate so much for other reasons, they would probably just stay home.
Don't get out much, do you?
Catholics are not that loyal to the GOP. The GOP gets a majority, but I don't think it is by much of a margin.
Coleus,Did not read this post bump.
I would say: if this is so, then you have mightily failed your flock, Father, because you have not taught them the truth.
Sounds about right. Catholicism is more of a political organization than it is a spiritual one.
I get out plenty... though most of the Catholics I'm friends with aren't CINOs. (Or maybe I know a lot of CINOs, but I'm just not aware that they have a religious affiliation.)
Thanks for posting. Once again, it shows that Greeley has no idea what he's talking about.
Or at least her enemies, both temporal and eternal, wished it were so...
Take your Catholic bashing bias elsewhere.
Your ignorance is showing.
Westernized first world Catholics, the ones for whom your statement might apply to a minority, only represent about 1/10th of all Roman Catholics in the world. So your statement displays gross ignorance, at best...
|Catholics who attend mass weekly or more often||57%||43%|
|Catholics who attend mass less than weekly||41%||59%|
Source: Third National Survey of Religion and Politics, University of Akron
Now drop and give me 20 Hail Marys.
"Matthew 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father and He is in heaven."
Now drop and give me 20 Hail Marys."
I guess this quote is meant to disprove Catholicism in one fell swoop? Is Texas Eagle implying that Catholics are wrong on spiritual matters, because they call priests, "father"? I wonder does Eagle call his own father "father" and if so does he thereby disqualify himself spiritually? Does the Eagle really believe that Jesus was completely forbidding the use of the word "father"?
Is Paul wrong then to refer to "our father Isaac" Rom 9:10 or Stephen wrong to refer to "our father Abraham"? Acts 7:2. Was Paul way off track when he wrote to the Corinthians, "For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel."?
Look at the whole passage and decide what Jesus means.
TexasEagle I ask you in good faith study the Bible that we both love and ask youself what Jesus wants us to take from this passage.
The New Testament has numerous uses of Apostles and Church elders being referred to (or referring to themselves as) spiritual fathers. All of this does not diminish the fact that we have One Father in Heaven.
If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.
Stop reading the Jack Chick tracts and clue into reality.
As my Protestant pastor says, "You want to establish something is capital T truth, you need to have 2 or 3 witnesses." It avoids single-verse misinterpretation.
Linguistic literalist simpleton.
It's pretty well documented that "Christmas and Easter Catholics" don't care about abortion, but "every Sunday" Catholics (i.e, practicing Catholics) care very much about abortion. None of this should come as a surprise.
You're dreaming....with all due respect.
I wish more Catholics followed the faith politically. It would be great for us all.
Sadly, many are urban dwellers around big cities and their voting patterns reflect that.
LOL! What do you call your father?
What about the surrounding lines? Have you ever read those?
8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
A mayor's stance on abortion has no impact on abortion. I'd vote the issues the candidate is actually tasked with dealing with over abortion.
WHAT flock does Greeley have? Soft-porn readers?
Greeley and Richard McBrien both give interviews constantly, on which they GLOAT about how unimportant abortion is to Catholic voters.
I don't recall any Catholic priests in the 1950s and 1960s who went on TV regularly to GLOAT the Catholics didn't care about civil rights for black people.
Here in the local Catholic church there are about 1/2 real Catholics who are very pro-life and about 1/2 who are part of the mean and nasty democrat machine.
I think this is starting to change. Our bishops are finally getting some backbone and remembering that it is their job to instruct the faithful.
Don't listen to Andrew Greeley. He's a liberal pornographer sociologist, whose conclusions are heavily weighted in favor of his own carnal desires.
Last election, Bush got almost 60% of church going Catholics, this election, he'll get more than 60% as the FDR Democrats are dying out and our young people are returning to the Faith with a zeal not seen in many years.
I think Bush will get more votes from all Christian faithful this year.
Bush is a real Christian...no doubt from what I've read about him. His rebirth was genuine.
I have attended a number of conservative protestant services lately and those congregations and their preachers are at "General Quarters" over this election.
You can buy the premise. It's Scheer and those guys? The lapsed are likely pro-abortion, and very jealous of Court nominees, eager to halt those like Scalia and Thomas, and promote those like (ugh) 'internationalist' Ginzberg. They're not neutrals, such as anyone could be on the issue. And it is THE issue for the Dem. It's litmus test #1. 'Gay rights' is right there. But I'm sure it's a #2.
It depends on how one defines Catholic. Real Catholics will not vote for abortion. Those who believe one can be Catholic, but not follow the core teachings of the Church, well of course they are not going to "vote that way."
But, then again, those folks are not Catholic.
Thank you for sharing your own personal opinion. May God Bless you abundantly, illuminate your darkened intellect, and have mercy on your soul.
You got that right, Mr. Silverback....check out this website:
A misquoted & misunderstood teaching, PROTESTants fequently use to bash Catholics when they don't have anything else better to do, used often to relieve a hidden frustration. I'm glad the Catholic faith doesn't focus on bashing PROTESTants, it would make it a very terrible and hypocrital religion. But then again they are on the outside looking in, it must be very frustrating.
Recently, in a conversation with someone who attends a "non-denominational" church, the question was asked: "Why are priests called 'Father' in your Church? This is not what the Bible teaches! Doesn't Jesus Himself say, 'Call no man on earth your father, for you have one Father who is in heaven.' (Matthew 23:9)."
This is simply another example of what can only be called the "fundamentalist gridlock" of some Christian groups in understanding and interpreting the Scriptures: the taking of this or that biblical passage out of context and applying it to whatever you want. St. Athanasios, the 4th century patriarch of Alexandria in Egypt, was the first person in Christian history to definitively list those 27 books that we today call the New Testament. A pivotal person in the formation of the New Testament canon, St. Athanasios says that when Christians read the Bible, they are not to take passages out of context but rather to keep the "skopos", the scope or "big picture" in mind. Let's examine this question keeping the full scope - or "big picture" - of the Scriptures in mind.
First: the question asked seems to presuppose that this passage of Scripture should be taken literally as an absolute prohibition ie, that we should call no man father. In other words, if we were to interpret Matthew 23:9 literally, no one could be called father, not even our biological fathers. Christians could not, for example, celebrate Fathers Day. Nor could George Washington be called "the father of our country." Is this what Jesus intended? Of course not! Doesn't Jesus Himself tell the rich young man to "keep the commandments" including the one to "honor your father and mother" (Matthew 19:19)? And when the Jews questioned Jesus about His teaching that He is "the bread of life," doesn't He respond to them by saying: " I am the bread of life. Your fathers (ie the ancestors of the Jewish people who took part in the Exodus from Egypt with Moses and are therefore called the "fathers" of Israel) ate the manna in the wilderness and they died" (John 6:48-49)?
Second: What would we do with the apostle Paul? When St. Paul discusses the Exodus, doesn't he - like Christ Himself - refer to the ancestors of the Israel of his day as "our fathers" (1 Corinthians 10:1)? When discussing discipline in the Christian family, doesn't he say "Fathers, do not provoke your children or they may lose heart" (Colossians 3:21).
Furthermore, with regards to spiritual fatherhood in the Christian community, to the Church in Corinth he wrote: "I do not write this to make you ashamed but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you might have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the Gospel" (1 Corinthians 4:14-15). And he describes his relationship with the Christians of the Church in Thessalonica as being "like a father with his children" (1 Thessalonians 2:11). Doesn't St. Paul, in the above passages, claim to be the spiritual father of the Corinthian and Thessalonian Churches, their father in the Gospel - Father Paul, if you will?
Third: When interpreting Matthew 23:9, it would be helpful to read the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew in order to get a proper understanding of the context of this passage. This 23rd chapter of Matthew contains the Lord's indictment of the scribes and pharisees for their hypocrisy, their focus on the externals of religion without genuine repentance and a corresponding conversion of heart. So, not only does Jesus condemn the scribes and pharisees for their use of the address "Father" in a vain and empty way, but in the very next verse says: "Nor are you to be called teachers, for you have one teacher, the Christ" (Matthew 23:10).
Yet, many contemporary non-denominational TV preachers describe themselves as "Bible teachers" and no one has ever argued that the Church should not have Sunday school teachers on the basis of this passage. Indeed, Jesus Himself acknowledged Nicodemus to be a "teacher of Israel" (John 3:10) and in the Book of Acts we read that certain men in Antioch were called "teachers" (Acts 13:1), to give only two examples. Therefore, as can be clearly understood when one reads the 23rd chapter of Matthew in its entirety, Jesus takes issue not with these titles and roles in and of themselves, but rather with their self-aggrandizing abuse by the scribes and pharisees.
Fourth: The term "father" when used to address a priest is not merely an assertion of his "higher" status in the community of believers; rather, it is a term of endearment, of intimacy and love, as the apostle Paul uses it in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, already mentioned above. In Greek, a priest in his village is addressed as "Papa" and in Russian as "Batiushka" - both being terms of endearment and intimacy. The spiritual fatherhood of the priest is intended to be a sign of the depth of intimacy and relationship which those in the life of the Church have with their leaders, a relationship based on the priest's role in our second birth, our birth in the Gospel - our baptism. Just as our biological father has an important role in our birth and continuing nurture, so the priest - as the one who baptizes us - has an important role in our second birth, our birth "from above of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5).
Finally: This kind of attempt to interpret the Scriptures literally and then apply a passage taken out of context in a polemical way, usually towards Roman Catholics - but by extension often towards us as Orthodox Christians as well - is, unfortunately, all too typical of much "non-denominational" Christianity. At best, it is a misreading and misunderstanding of the Scriptures; at worst, it can be an expression of religious bigotry. Nonetheless, it remains a simple fact that the overwhelming majority of Christians in the world today (Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, etc.) - and across the 20 centuries of Church history - have addressed and continue to address their clergy as 'Father."
If anyone wishes to be contentious about this, we have no other practice - nor do the churches of God. - 1 Corinthians 11:16
Matthew 23:9 "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven."
The key word "your" is in most Bible versions including the King James. The use of this word "your" signifies that only the creator, as Father of the spirit -- that which lasts for all eternity -- is the true "Father." All other references to "father" refer to human beings who in one way or another serve as foster fathers. The argument that "dad" or "pa" or "pop" bears a different significance than the word "father" is to be considered as being close minded. If one calls someone "dad" with the notion that dad is his creator, and believes that this is okay because it does not go against the literal interpretation contained in Scripture, then many messages of Jesus must be considered as rendered useless. The spirit is of God the Father. The material body (that which is mortal) has a human father.
It should be noted that there are 1,511 references to father, fathers. etc. in the King James version of Sacred Scripture. Most of these do not refer to God the Father. There is no admonition by Jesus or anyone else that these usages were wrong. When Jesus used the reference your father it would have had little meaning if the basic concept of father was not clearly understood by being in common usage.
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [Genesis 2:24]
Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. [Deut. 33:9]
But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: [Matthew 2:22]
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. [Matthew 3:9]
Jesus here made no reference that their concept of "our father Abraham" was in error.
And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. [Matthew 4:21]
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [Mat. 10:21]
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [Matthew 10:37]
This passage clearly shows that Jesus did not consider the natural use of the term father to be in error, for He Himself uses it in this fashion.
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. [1 John 2:13]
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. [Romans 4:12]
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. [Romans 4:16-17]
The use of the word "father," in regards to priests, only means that a priest acts as a spiritual guide under the authority of God the Father. No one in their right mind thinks that each priest is God the Father or that any human being is their creator. Jesus made this statement to help us focus on our true origins and upon that which has lasting value. This type of message is called a metaphor. It is figurative language used as a method of teaching and not meant to be taken literally. It is a way of getting across a message.
One's human father provides for the needs of this life during growth and also acts as teacher and moral guide for the mind and the spirit. A priest is called father because he is intended to act as a link to spiritual values that otherwise would be without authoritative foundation.
If one has a concordance -- a catalog of words found in the Bible -- he should look up the word "father" and see the many different ways the term is used in Scripture, particularly in the New Testament. The term "father" in the King James version is used 541 times in the Old Testament and 311 times in the New Testament for a total of 852 times. When Biblical passages are taken out of context and/or interpreted literally one is often going to be in error.
Sacred Scripture uses the phrase, "your father," a total of 120 times. The New Testament alone has the following passages where the term "your father" is not used not in reference to God the Father. Most of these references are made by Jesus Himself, although one is made by His mother, Mary, and one by Saint Paul.
Matthew 15:4 For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.'
Matthew 19:19 honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "
Mark 7:10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.'
Mark 10:19 You know the commandments: 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.' "
Luke 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, "Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety." (Obviously it is not God the Father who is hereby referred to as God. The Father in Heaven always new the exact location of Jesus.)
Luke 15:27 The servant said to him, 'Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'
Luke 18:20 You know the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.' "
John 8:56 Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. (How many are willing to say that Jesus broke His own commandment?)
1 Cor. 4:15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Saint Paul refers to himself as the father of his disciples in Christ Jesus.)
Ephes. 6:2 "Honor your father and mother." This is the first commandment with a promise,
A & P, CAPE, Hatched/Matched and Dispatched Catholics
I guess it all depends on how you define the "Catholic Vote."
If you include everyone who went through First Communion 20 years ago who now go to Mass on Christmas and Easter, then yes, that's probably true.
If someone were to poll actual practicing Cahtolics who attend Mass every Sunday at a minimum, I suspect the numbers would be a lot different.
Who is Jack Chick?
Aks me yourself. Actually, I call my father "pops". And I don't have to kneel and kiss his ring when I do it.
What's up with that anyway? Is that in the Bible? Or the Catechism or whatever book Catholics use.
What's up with that whole catechism thing? Why isn't the Bible good enough for you people?
Where does it say thou shalt jump through myriad hoops before being declared a Saint?
Why do you pray to dead people like the Virgin Mary? Did she die on the cross to cleanse you of your sins and heal you of your sicknesses?
Ohhhhh...so that's what it's all about, eh? It's not just a political organization, it's also a country club.
The abortion issue has not been an issue with Catholics since it became legal. Socialism and government programs are their hot buttons and why they vote fro Demoncrats. Oh, pardon me, "social justice" via economic or otherwise is a winning issue with Catholic Demoncrats.
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