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Investment rush to China
Lou Dobbs Tonight ^ | 06/28/2004 | Lou Dobbs

Posted on 06/29/2004 6:20:23 PM PDT by neutrino

DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight -- the investment rush to China has hit a new level tonight. We'll have that story for you. China's latest gain coming at the expense of, guess what, the United States. We'll have that special report next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Stocks today barely moved on Wall Street: the Dow down 15; the NASDAQ down almost 6; the S&P fell a point.

Startling new numbers tonight on a changing trend in foreign investment affecting this country and you and me. Christine Romans with the story -- Christine?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, companies rushed to invest in China last year, and China overtook the U.S. in foreign direct investment.

China attracted $53 billion in foreign direct investment last year according to the OECD; $40 billion came to the U.S., dramatically lower than the 72 billion the year before. Exclude tax haven Luxembourg, and China now tops the list of foreign direct investment.

Analysts say companies are simply eager to cash in on China's cheaper labor and raw materials. And companies are cutting back their investments in the U.S., Japan, Britain, and Germany, Lou.

DOBBS: More good news on the Chinese/U.S. relationship. Christine, thank you. Christine Romans.

Still ahead -- the results of our poll tonight. And a reminder to check our Web site of the complete list of more than 800 companies that we've now confirmed to be exporting American jobs. CNN.COM/LOU.
 

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: charliechan; china; chopsticks; investment; offshoring; outsourcing; trade
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The transcript is fairly long - I extracted the part of interest.

Notice that China has now edged out the U.S. in foreign investment.

1 posted on 06/29/2004 6:20:23 PM PDT by neutrino
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To: neutrino; iamright; AM2000; Iscool; wku man; Lael; international american; No_Doll_i; techwench; ...
China is now ahead of the U.S. in foreign investment. Their already strong economy will get stronger; ours will get weaker.

Can we support our global commitments in such an environment?

Consequences, my FRiends. I fear we face quite a banquet of them.

If you want on or off my offshoring ping list, please FReepmail me!

2 posted on 06/29/2004 6:27:17 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino
Didn't we see the similar situation with Lenin sucking westerners to lift the Soviet Union from the mud and then "nationalize" factories and go on with march towards "better tomorrow" (enslaving nations)?

It is dangerous to farm out important manufacturing into (un)friendly camp. My dog learns faster.

3 posted on 06/29/2004 6:43:03 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian
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To: neutrino
China is now ahead of the U.S. in foreign investment.

Foreign direct investment. There is a big difference between that and overall investment.

Their already strong economy will get stronger; ours will get weaker.

I think you mean our capitalist fifth column keeps getting stronger in China, and our GDP keeps growing, too.

4 posted on 06/29/2004 6:49:39 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: Leo Carpathian
It is dangerous to farm out important manufacturing into (un)friendly camp. My dog learns faster.

Truly. And as China becomes more tempted to flex its military muscles, this scenario could easily play out.

5 posted on 06/29/2004 7:07:21 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: Moonman62
I think you mean our capitalist fifth column keeps getting stronger in China, and our GDP keeps growing, too.

Um? And their military gets stronger. So does their manufacturing base. And our manufacturing base becomes weaker.

Now what happens if we get into conflict with them? We have problems producing sufficient ammunition in a war with Iraq. Whatever would we do in a conflict with China?

6 posted on 06/29/2004 7:09:46 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino

,,, the returns from investing in China can be astronomical, but the risk can be too. Euro investors know this and are cautiously buying into more Chinese debt. A safer, long term and quite lucrative return since Sep 11 can be derived from premium funding in markets outside China. There's more than one way to skin a cat and get to keep one of it's nine lives.


7 posted on 06/29/2004 7:20:39 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: neutrino

We manufacture more goods now than ever before. I doubt that China would want to conduct war with its best customer. If we are having miltary procurement problems I suggest you look at the crooks in Congress before looking at China.


8 posted on 06/29/2004 7:45:02 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: Leo Carpathian

This neo-NEP is the mother of all NEPs. The PRC are quite a bit slicker than Lenin was. They really know how to make the whole thing seem bona fide. If you dare challenge the conventional view on this, the tin foil label starts to fly. But to all the China boosters, I have the following queston. Why is it that the CCP still has power of denial over any and all economic activities? And why do we still need to constantly grease the palms and kowtow? And the final question, do the Communists collect taxes or not? End of discussion....


9 posted on 06/29/2004 7:51:43 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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To: Moonman62

Long term, the PRC plan to sell more to fellow Asians and to Europe than they ever could hope to sell to us. They really no longer need us, now that they have our capital, hold the paper to our debt and have our technology. Now shall begin the long squeeze - it's gonna hurt bad!


10 posted on 06/29/2004 7:54:08 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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To: GOP_1900AD
My neighboor is attempting to start a new company in China. His partners in Hong Kong go to the meetings with the local government officials in China with suitcases filled with money. I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the local Chinese officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes.

No American can "own" a company in China. They may operate it but the Chinese retain total control. Without massive bribes to officials there would be no company. Hence the officials are the "owners". Also, he told me that their judicial system does not follow any laws. Any appearance before a magistrate comes down to solely his decision. He does not look for precedent. At any time they can confiscate or punish without recourse.

11 posted on 06/29/2004 7:56:58 PM PDT by raybbr (My 1.4 cents - It used to be 2 cents, but after taxes - you get the idea.)
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To: Moonman62
We manufacture more goods now than ever before.

That right? Why, then, does our trade deficit continue to expand? Why do I find a vast array of Chinese goods in the markets, but few American goods?

12 posted on 06/29/2004 8:08:56 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: GOP_1900AD
Now shall begin the long squeeze - it's gonna hurt bad!

Truly. And somewhere in there, China just might want to grab Taiwan. That loss will mark a transition for America, from single superpower to has-been.

A defeat brought to us be free-traitors everywhere.

13 posted on 06/29/2004 8:11:00 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino
That right? Why, then, does our trade deficit continue to expand?

Because we have the largest most vibrant economy, and generate the most wealth.

Why do I find a vast array of Chinese goods in the markets, but few American goods?

Probably because you are buying at the low end.

14 posted on 06/29/2004 8:12:49 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: neutrino

China, The World's Factory.


15 posted on 06/29/2004 8:17:19 PM PDT by BJungNan (Stop Spam - Start Charging for Email - You get 2000 a month for free, then you pay!)
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To: neutrino
China has already officially recognized private property rights. The people of Hong Kong have successfully rebuffed some of the demands of the Mainland. I can only imagine how obstinate the Taiwanese would be.
16 posted on 06/29/2004 8:17:22 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: Moonman62
Because we have the largest most vibrant economy, and generate the most wealth.

Um-hmm. And that's why we have ever more debt, right? It's why we owe more to China, isn't it? It's why we are net exporters only in the areas of aircraft, aircraft parts, and agricultural products - right?

Why do I find a vast array of Chinese goods in the markets, but few American goods?

Probably because you are buying at the low end.

Cute. But the simple truth is that the world's manufacturing center now resides in China.

The Chinese dragon is getting stronger day by day - and free traitors are feeding it.

17 posted on 06/29/2004 8:20:46 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: Moonman62
China has already officially recognized private property rights.

"Stroke of the pen, law of the land. Kinda cool."

You don't suppose China could do that too, do you?

Free traitors - selling America out for cheap junk from China.

18 posted on 06/29/2004 8:23:00 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: raybbr
My neighboor is attempting to start a new company in China. His partners in Hong Kong go to the meetings with the local government officials in China with suitcases filled with money. I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the local Chinese officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes. No American can "own" a company in China. They may operate it but the Chinese retain total control. Without massive bribes to officials there would be no company. Hence the officials are the "owners". Also, he told me that their judicial system does not follow any laws. Any appearance before a magistrate comes down to solely his decision. He does not look for precedent. At any time they can confiscate or punish without recourse.

Your friend is being taken to the cleaners.

His first mistake is having a partner in Hong Kong. The suitcases full of money is not necessary to do business in China and whoever your friend's partner is, he is having a reall grand time with your friends money.

If he is doing business in Shenzhen (Southern China across from Hong Kong), then perhaps bribes can be a way of life but his next biggest mistake is setting up shop in Shenzhen.

I don't know who told him an American can not own a business in China. Sounds like a BS line your friends partner gave him to keep him in the dark and help him part with his money or his business. There are plenty of wholly owned foreign enterprises in China - many of the American. And you don't need a Chinese partner. Any company that got started that way paid dearly to get out of the joint-venture. The "officials are the owners" is true only if you set it up that way.

As for courts, they do have a procedure and if you follow it, you can win. Certainly you can do things to influence a decision or speed it along but you can prevail. It can be a real landmine though - but then, so is court in the U.S. The can seize bank assets and hold them pending the outcome of the case.

Your friend needs to look to the Shanghai area where it is less corrupt and the rules are generally followed. He needs to do some due diligence on his partner or better yet, lose him. He will think he can not do that because of what he has already invested but that amount, no matter what it is, will seem small compared to what it will cost him if he continues along the lines you describe.

19 posted on 06/29/2004 8:30:26 PM PDT by BJungNan (Stop Spam - Start Charging for Email - You get 2000 a month for free, then you pay!)
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To: neutrino

My guess is China is buying US government debt, so why don't you tell your buddies in Washington, especially the Republicans to stop spending so much? That's more of a threat to America than Chinese manufacturing. Other than that, your fears are unfounded.


20 posted on 06/29/2004 8:31:21 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: Moonman62
My guess is China is buying US government debt, so why don't you tell your buddies in Washington, especially the Republicans to stop spending so much?

There is budgetary debt, and there is trade debt. Less of both would be better. Alas, the folks in D.C. aren't willing to do what I tell them.

That's more of a threat to America than Chinese manufacturing. Other than that, your fears are unfounded.

Riiight. And we didn't need to concern ourselves with Japan prior to December 7, 1941.

China is quite nationalistic. The Chinese, to their credit, believe that there are things more important than buying more cheap junk from Wally World.

21 posted on 06/29/2004 8:39:21 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino
China is quite nationalistic.

I thought the Nationalists were in Taiwan

The Chinese, to their credit, believe that there are things more important than buying more cheap junk from Wally World.

You sound like you'd be happier living there, plus you'd have a trade surplus. Adios.

22 posted on 06/29/2004 9:02:58 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: BJungNan
China, The World's Factory.

And bastion of slavery and bastion of communism. A GREAT place to invest if you are an American company that requires on public/private partnerships (OPIC, INF, IMF, EX IM Bank) and global corporatism to survive.
23 posted on 06/29/2004 9:35:06 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: Moonman62

Says China:

The Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence are mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity,mutual non-aggression,non-interference in each other's internal affairs,equality and mutual benefit,and peaceful coexistence.
***
Memorize for tomorrow's test.


24 posted on 06/29/2004 9:36:58 PM PDT by hedgetrimmer
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To: neutrino

If America invests in America its not counted as foreign investment. If America invests in China it is foreign investment. You can do the math from there.


25 posted on 06/29/2004 9:39:16 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: BJungNan

Should read: China American company's preffered location of contract labor.


26 posted on 06/29/2004 9:41:25 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: Moonman62
I thought the Nationalists were in Taiwan

You really ought to educate yourself on this matter before posting. Such statements detract from your reputation.

27 posted on 06/30/2004 5:01:41 AM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino
"Riiight. And we didn't need to concern ourselves with Japan prior to December 7, 1941."

Just wondering,

If China's goal is the collapse of the US, just what will they do with all those green pieces of paper we have been sending them in return for the VCR's ?
28 posted on 06/30/2004 6:08:16 AM PDT by RS (Just because they're out to get him doesn't mean he's not guilty)
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To: neutrino
We will soon reap the downside of the trade/fiscal/investment imbalances, the mountains of debt and paper generated by derivatives and Fed printing press since 95.

Watch the dollar.


BUMP

29 posted on 06/30/2004 6:37:51 AM PDT by tm22721 (May the UN rest in peace)
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To: Moonman62

If your manufacturing is a means to an end, then who the customer is doesn't matter to the end. If you can get your enemy to fund his own demise...


30 posted on 06/30/2004 9:46:15 AM PDT by Havoc (.)
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To: neutrino
The Financial Times reported yesterday (June 29th, page 9) that France enjoyed greater FDI than the US during the last year ($47B versus $40B). Whatever's going on, it ain't because of free trade, no matter how desperately you wish it to be true.
31 posted on 06/30/2004 9:56:29 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: RS
If China's goal is the collapse of the US, just what will they do with all those green pieces of paper we have been sending them in return for the VCR's ?"

Now you've done it. Don't you know that a rising dollar = more imports = higher trade deficit = bad, while a falling dollar is simply bad? Think like a protectionist.

32 posted on 06/30/2004 9:59:18 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
What a pleasure to see you, 1rudeboy! I've been waiting for you to show up.

I noticed that you made a number of contributions to a thread here in which a lawyer used a rather old law to force his neighbors to pay part of the cost of fencing the lawyer's property.

You were quite vigorous in your defense.

As for me, I'm in favor of nice new laws that implement good, strong tariffs to protect American jobs and industry.

And since you clearly favor letting neighbors pay for a fence, you must surely favor letting tariffs pay for the protection of American jobs and manufacturing infrastructure!

And, responding to your post, the problem most certainly IS free trade. Investors can see that the U.S. is bankrupt, and has divested herself of the ability to earn income. We've given it away to China. So, naturally, those investors don't want to risk their money here.

The free traitors have cut America's throat. We're only beginning to see the consequences.

And thanks again for all your contributions to that property thread - you may be assured that I will remind you of your position in making others pay for the lawyer's fence.

33 posted on 06/30/2004 10:43:28 AM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: tm22721
Watch the dollar.

Absolutely. And as the dollar declines, we're going to see lots of inflation. I think the next decade or so will not be pretty.

34 posted on 06/30/2004 10:47:34 AM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino
Bring it on. I hope your legal expertise is better than your economic. If you cared enough to read that thread, which I doubt, B4Ranch summarizes the current state of the law quite nicely toward the end. If you have a problem with it, contact your legislator.

So what of France's $47B FDI? It's not like France is flooding us with cheap imports, or under-cutting our manufacturing with low wages. Is France the new bogeyman?

35 posted on 06/30/2004 10:49:46 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: RS
If China's goal is the collapse of the US, just what will they do with all those green pieces of paper we have been sending them in return for the VCR's ?

Perhaps they don't want collapse of the U.S.; perhaps they would prefer to supplant the U.S.

To accomplish that, they could simply quit extending credit to us, and maybe sell some of the debt on the open market. This would tend to drive the dollar down and interest rates up - it would, therefore, damage the U.S. economy.

We've given them a variety of weapons. They can choose the time and method most advantageous to them. Maybe that will be during a face-off over Taiwan.

36 posted on 06/30/2004 10:51:59 AM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: raybbr

That's also how you can get a multiple entry visa - really fast! :-)


37 posted on 06/30/2004 10:53:44 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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To: neutrino
And since you clearly favor letting neighbors pay for a fence, you must surely favor letting tariffs pay for the protection of American jobs and manufacturing infrastructure!

Only if you are able to make the argument that the fence in question must also be subsidized by others whose property does not adjoin the fence. Be my guest.

38 posted on 06/30/2004 10:56:53 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: RS

Aha, but we don't send them hard currency or actual hard assets for those VCRs! We send them ownership of accounts which yield at massive APR! Oh and also, we then, in order to be able to buy even more VCRs, refi our houses, and guess who buys the paper on that debt, which, although not yielding massive APR, has wicked pricipal levels. Guess who's got us by the shorties....


39 posted on 06/30/2004 10:57:19 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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To: neutrino

"To accomplish that, they could simply quit extending credit to us, and maybe sell some of the debt on the open market. This would tend to drive the dollar down and interest rates up - it would, therefore, damage the U.S. economy."

??? so they sell the debt on the open market - dosen't that presume that they would find a willing buyer ?

... and the dollar going down hurts their own, as it it tied to the dollar - If they cut loose from the dollar and it sinks, their products become more expensive for us. Their VCR factories become idle, and no more green pieces of paper for them - unless they come back here and buy something we produce, they simply have green pieces of paper.


40 posted on 06/30/2004 11:04:53 AM PDT by RS (Just because they're out to get him doesn't mean he's not guilty)
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To: 1rudeboy
Only if you are able to make the argument that the fence in question must also be subsidized by others whose property does not adjoin the fence. Be my guest.

No, 1 rudeboy, I don't have to make that argument. The fence issue centers on the principle that both property owners enjoy a benefit from the fence, therefore both should pay a proportionate share of the costs. Furthermore, a single entity - in this case, the lawyer - can act and create a liability for his neighbors without their consent.

All Americans enjoy the benefits of well-paying jobs for Americans and strong manufacturing infrastructure. Therefore, it is right and proper that we should pay to accomplish that worthwhile end. We should do this even though the free traitors withhold consent.

41 posted on 06/30/2004 11:05:25 AM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: RS
so they sell the debt on the open market - dosen't that presume that they would find a willing buyer ?

Discount it enough, and you'll find a willing buyer. Some years ago, there was an ongoing market in Czarist bonds...that's right, bonds issued by by pre-Soviet Russia.

... and the dollar going down hurts their own, as it it tied to the dollar - If they cut loose from the dollar and it sinks, their products become more expensive for us. Their VCR factories become idle, and no more green pieces of paper for them - unless they come back here and buy something we produce, they simply have green pieces of paper.

Their primary goal isn't making money. Ours is, and we filter our perceptions through our value system.

What if all this money is merely a means to an end for them? Right now, their currency is undervalued with respect to the dollar and they keep it there to accomplish their ends. They are subordinating profit to a different goal.

Don't be blinded by thinking everyone values the current quarter's sales above all else.

42 posted on 06/30/2004 11:13:20 AM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino
All Americans enjoy the benefits of well-paying jobs for Americans and strong manufacturing infrastructure. Therefore, it is right and proper that we should pay to accomplish that worthwhile end. We should do this even though the free traitors withhold consent.

Again, as in the case of the fence, elect a candidate that supports your view. Did you forget that you were talking of the law?

43 posted on 06/30/2004 11:15:54 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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But sorry, Kucinich and Gephardt are out.


44 posted on 06/30/2004 11:16:32 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: GOP_1900AD

"We send them ownership of accounts which yield at massive APR! Oh and also, we then, in order to be able to buy even more VCRs, refi our houses, and guess who buys the paper on that debt, which, although not yielding massive APR, has wicked pricipal levels."

... so they get even more green pieces of paper for our VCRs - and we are refing our houses at even lower rates....

When the rates get down to zero, I'll borrow everything I can !


45 posted on 06/30/2004 11:19:28 AM PDT by RS (Just because they're out to get him doesn't mean he's not guilty)
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To: neutrino

"Their primary goal isn't making money."

Perhaps you can tell us what their primary goal is, and how sacrificing the work of their people to collect dollars they seek to make worthless helps that goal ?


46 posted on 06/30/2004 11:25:58 AM PDT by RS (Just because they're out to get him doesn't mean he's not guilty)
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To: 1rudeboy
Again, as in the case of the fence, elect a candidate that supports your view. Did you forget that you were talking of the law?

In due course, such candidates will present themselves.

Until they do, I'll do my small part to lay the ideological foundation necessary for their victory.

47 posted on 06/30/2004 12:22:16 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: RS
Again, as in the case of the fence, elect a candidate that supports your view. Did you forget that you were talking of the law?

Empire. Ask yourself - why did they grab Tibet? Why are they rattling the saber at Taiwan? Why have they not brought North Korea to heal?

48 posted on 06/30/2004 12:28:43 PM PDT by neutrino (Against stupidity the very Gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: neutrino

Strange italicized quote... ( I know, I've done it myself :-)

So it's kind of a "manifest destiny" type of thing then... how does collecting massive amounts of green pieces of paper help that ?

BTW, Taiwan may someday be recollected as another part of their "one country, two systems" concept - I suspect that the giveaway of Hong Kong by the British might be a poison pill that will eventually swallow all of China.


49 posted on 06/30/2004 12:39:18 PM PDT by RS (Just because they're out to get him doesn't mean he's not guilty)
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To: neutrino
In due course, such candidates will present themselves.

That's what von Hayek predicts in The Road to Serfdom. Actually, he predicts that such a candidate will attain power, as opposed to being regularly, and roundly, defeated as such a candidate is now.

50 posted on 06/30/2004 1:12:11 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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