Posted on 07/06/2004 11:02:03 AM PDT by blam
Ancient European remains discovered in Qinghai
www.chinaview.cn 2004-07-06 15:32:53
XINING, July 6 (Xinhuanet) -- Archeologists confirmed that the human skeletons discovered this May in northwest China's Qinghai Province belonged to three Europeans who lived in China over 1,900 years ago.
"The physical characteristics of the bones showed it is a typical European race," said Wang Minghui, an expert with the archeological institute under the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
The skeletons were spotted at Zhongchuan Town of the province's eastern most Minhe Hui and Tu Autonomous County.
Since 2002, archeologists have unearthed nine tombs of Han Dynasty (206 BC-220 AD) at a construction site of a brickfield in the town, but it was not until this May that they felt the skeletons in two tombs "very special", said Ren Xiaoyan, deputy director if the provincial archeological institute, who added they invited Wang, who specializes in human bone identification, to take part in the study on the findings.
Qinghai is on the southern section of the world-known land trade corridor -- the Silk Road, linking China with Central and Western Asia and to the eastern shores of the Mediterranean begins in the country's northwest and runs 7,000 kilometers.
Serving as an important bridge for the economic and cultural exchanges between the East and the West, the area, which the Silk Road covered in China, used to see throngs of Indian, Persian, Arabic, Greek and Roman people.
Ren said the tomb shape, the burial articles and the way they were put in the tomb are all typical in Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220), which proved the three westerners had lived here for a long time and were accustomed to local traditions and customs.
"Although so far, we have been not sure of the country the three Europeans came from and there might be a large number of such 'westerners' living here at the ancient time," said Ren.
Such European skeletons have only been revealed in northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, a neighboring region which is to the northwest of Qinghai, so the discovery this time is of great importance for the study of the ancient society in Qinghai, said Wang. Enditem
"which proved the three westerners had lived here for a long time and were accustomed to local traditions and customs"
These people may have established these traditions and customs.
Uhhh, how do they know that the skeletons are westerners?
These are probably some more of our Tocharian speaking people
bttt
As their arms were posed in the traditional "hands up" position, experts have concluded that these were most likely French fleeing from some unknown ancient enemy.
The three races differ in cranial/skeletal structure.
This discovery makes sense.
If prehistoric Kennewick Man, discovered in Washington state, was Caucasian it stands to reason that there would be other Caucasian remains found in the Asian heartland.
Kennewick Man died in Washington State, 9,300 years ago. He was Ainu of which there are still 10-50K still living in Japan. They have many Caucasian features. You may find this link interesting.
Also, there are many Chinese poems lamenting the green eyes of the Han Emperors. And...their 'magic-men' were noted for having red hair.
Have we found any graves of Asian travellers of the period in the West -- aside from remains of the warring steppes tribes, of course, who were rather spectacularly present?
They weren't travellers, they were residents.
Are there any records of Chinese travellers in Rome or elsewhere in the Mediterranean during ancient times? I would be surprised if there are not, but I don't know the field.
BTTT
Maybe they moved there to open a restaurant?
I just read your kindly offered article of The Samurai and the Ainu. At the bottom of the article it say:
Comment. Fringe anthropology notes many "white" races in strange places; viz., the white Indians of Panama and the Mandans of the American West.
I live in Panama and there are NO white Indians here. The author is confused with the Kuna Yala Indians who live in the San Blas Islands (Atlantic coast). They have a high rate of albinos due to their closed society (interbreeding) and not due to being some kind of white race.
Again…there are no white Indians in Panama.
Thanks!--cool.
"Are there any records of Chinese travellers in Rome or elsewhere in the Mediterranean during ancient times? I would be surprised if there are not, but I don't know the field."
Yes, it's known there was contact between the Han Dynasty and the Roman Empire. The Chinese exported silk to the Roman Empire.
The Mandans of America???? I am from Mandan ND where the Mandan tribe is from and the decendents are as stereotypical Native American/Indian in appearence as you would think possible. I understand that there was alot of inter-marriage among the three affiliated tribes (Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara) but not enough to make them "white".
Be suprised. That whole Xinjiang Uygur Autonomus Region is covered with Caucasian skeletons and mummies that date to 2,000BC. The Chinese skeletons and mummies do not start to show up in that region until about 100BC. Here is a good book on the subject, it will be one on the best you've ever read.
"Are there any records of Chinese travellers in Rome or elsewhere in the Mediterranean during ancient times? I would be surprised if there are not, but I don't know the field."
I think the Han Dynasty sent an emissary to Rome in the early AD's.
Roman times...was Christianity taken to China 1900 years ago?
"Again…there are no white Indians in Panama."
Okay, thanks. I had never heard about the Kuna until you mentioned it.
Apparently as early as 86AD.
Christian Designs Found In Tombstone Of Eastern Han Dynasty
"When studying a batch of stone carvings of Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220 A.D.) stored and exhibited in the Museum of Xuzhou Han Stone Carvings, Christian theology professor Wang Weifan was greatly surprised by some stone engravings demonstrating the Bible stories and designs of early Christian times."
A form of Christianity did reach China after sweeping through Syria, Iraq, Iran, India, and Afghanistan. It was popular until Islam.
Wasn't it contained in a report of the Lewis & Clark expedition that some members of the expedition communicated with the Mandans in Welsh? Also, I've read much speculation that the Mandans may be the remnants of the Prince Madoc (Welsh) group that came to the US in 1170AD...Lately I've read 540AD.
What's you take on this?
Evening bump.
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Must be other stuff with the remains. Western stuff. Spurs and bluejeans.
"That whole Xinjiang Uygur Autonomus Region is covered with Caucasian skeletons and mummies that date to 2,000BC. The Chinese skeletons and mummies do not start to show up in that region until about 100BC."
VERY interesting. I'll read the book you are recommending.
Cowboy hats in the graves?
Nestorians, if I recall correctly.
Here's a good companion book on the same subject. Dr Barber and Goode make a textile connection of these people to Halstadt, Austria. They were part of a group of specialized scientists recruited by Dr Victor Mair for this investigation.
Thanks.
This is really fascinating.
In Africa.
The earliest (known) contacts were via the cinnamon routes. It was a long LONG time ago. Its not inconcievable that someone, probably many actually, travelled back to China and just stayed.
Cowboy boots.
I love stuff like this. Thanks so much for posting it.
The Mummies of Urumchi
by Elizabeth Wayland BarberThe Tarim Mummies:
Ancient China and the Mystery
of the Earliest Peoples from the West
by J. P. Mallory,
Victor H. Mair
"Maybe they moved there to open a restaurant?"
Especially if they were Greek !
I think you're missing the point completely. These people lived there for thousands of years...they lived there for 2,000 (or more) years before any Chinese appeared in the region. There are whole villages, graveyards, dessicated fruit groves, etc. They weren't just passing through. Then there came a severe climate change and the streams and lakes dried up.
That's consistent with an older view, that of diffusion of discoveries (writing, the plow, the stirrup, the abacus, gunpowder, what-have-you) from point of origin (wherever each one originated) outward to the rest of the world.Rethinking a History That's Carved in StoneThree months after the announcement of its discovery in Central Asia, a tiny stone object inscribed with symbols thought to be the writing of an obscure desert culture from 4,000 years ago is more of an enigma than ever. If this is indeed an early form of writing, as its discoverer has suggested, it is strong evidence for a previously unknown civilization that began about 2300 B.C. across much of modern Turkmenistan and parts of Uzbekistan and Afghanistan... An even more puzzling aspect of the discovery has been raised by specialists in ancient Chinese writing. They contend that the inscription bears more than a passing resemblance to Chinese writing -- not an early script, but one that was not used until about 200 B.C... There is no clear evidence for Chinese writing before about 1300 or 1200 B.C. -- 1,000 years after people lived at the Anau site in Turkmenistan where the mysterious inscription was unearthed... Another possibility, which would throw the scholarship of Chinese writing into turmoil, is that the 2300 inscription date is correct. That would suggest that influences from Central Asia or farther west might have contributed to the invention of Chinese writing. Dr. Mair, who holds that such influences were greater than previously thought, has raised this controversial point.
by John Noble Wilford
July 31, 2001
Origins of the Bronze Age
Oasis Civilization in Central Asia
by Fredrik T. Hiebert
The oldest paper ever found was among these mummies around Urumchi. The extinct Indo-European language, Tocharian, was written on it. Ancient Celtic is it's closest relative.
My mom wants the rest of the article! I was reading it to her over the phone and the link just left us hangin'!
Personally, I wouldn't call anything from 1900 years ago, ANCIENT. Mentally I classify anything pre-Christ as ancient, post-Christ as well, not ancient ;-)
In any case, Indians had a pretty highly developed civilisation by 2500 + B.C. and these were the eastern outpost of "westerners" viz. caucasians, so it's not really surprising that some caucasians were found near the indian continent around 100 AD
So even then they had "running dogs of western imperialism" in China.
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