Guns Worn In Open Legal, But Alarm Va, 'Exercising Right' Called 'Unreasonable' by Some

WashingtonPost ^ | 07/15/04 | Tom Jackman

[Pikamax]

Guns Worn In Open Legal, But Alarm Va. 'Exercising Right' Called 'Unreasonable' by Some

By Tom Jackman Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, July 15, 2004; Page A01

On July 2, Fairfax County police received a 911 call from a Champps restaurant in Reston. Six men are seated at a table, the caller said. They're all armed.

Dispatchers quickly sent four officers to the scene. The officers were "extremely polite" and were hoping that some of the men were in law enforcement, said Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the police department. None was.

The men told the officers "they were just exercising their rights as citizens of the commonwealth," Perez said.

Turns out, packing a pistol in public is perfectly legal in Virginia. And three times in the last month, including at Champps on Sunset Hills Road, residents have been spotted out and about in the county, with guns strapped to their hips, exercising that right.

In the first episode, at a Starbucks, Fairfax police wrongly confiscated weapons from two college students and charged them with a misdemeanor. Police realized their mistake, returned the guns and tore up the charges the next day. Police commanders have since issued a reminder to officers that "open carry" is the law of the land in the Old Dominion.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization of thousands of Virginia gun owners, said members were involved in all three police encounters. But he said there was no coordinated campaign to start packing heat publicly.

"It was probably more of a coincidence, but not completely," Van Cleave said, noting that word of the improper confiscation spread quickly among members through e-mail. "This is a good opportunity to educate people. We have this inherent right, and not many people exercised it."

[kAcknor]

Note please: The *bang_list is a collection of articles pertaining to the Second Amendment and related Civil Rights, Firearms, and Firearm Related Subjects in general. It is not a ping list. Please do not ask me to include you. There is no one to notify you of new posts. The *bang_list, like others, is a collection of like-subject articles placed by anyone who believes an article belongs and can be read anytime. You can read the list here. You can bookmark the list on your FR homepage here. You can add an article to the list by posting a reply and sending it to *bang_list as in this post.

[steplock]

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.

-- Noah Webster

[ikka]

Hmmm ... pick a day each month for "Open Carry Day" and eventually the sheeple will get it.

[ECM]

Wow...and I thought a relatively low cost of living was the only reason to move to VA!

[HairOfTheDog]

We have the same law here in WA.... but acting on it anywhere but in the woods will get ya looks!

[NotQuiteCricket]

from the article:
Ricker said the gun owners "are probably doing their cause more harm than good by raising this issue. It raises an awareness and gives people who are more rational emotional thinkers the opportunity to go to their legislators and make their views known."

[unixfox]

If the cops don't even know what the laws are how the hell do they expect to enforce them? They obviously do not belong in law enforcement.

[ScottFromSpokane]

Guns is scawy!

I'm not entirely sure why carrying guns openly--as opposed to hiding them so you never know who's carrying what--is particularly frightening to these people.

I particularly like this part:

"Crime is at 20-year lows in the county," Lt. Col. Charles K. Peters pointed out, even with the population is soaring. The county's homicide rate was the lowest in the nation last year among the 30 largest jurisdictions. "Hopefully no one feels the need to carry a gun, lawfully or unlawfully," Peters said.

It's the same logic that lies behind the stories about prison populations booming "in spite of" lower crime.

Maybe crime is so low there because it's the kind of place where people feel comfortable with privately-owned guns.

Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Ditz.

[two23]

shall not be infringed bump

[Lancey Howard]

BUMP!!!
This is great!

[T-Bird45]

Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation." Ditz.

Please allow me to pile on and add: brainless twit!

[patton]

Relatively low cast of living?

Are you on drugs, or dogfood?

[PoorMuttly]

NOT "Exercising Right" Called "Unreasonable"' by Others.

Go figure.

[PUGACHEV]

Back in the '70s, when I lived in D.C. for a while, I had a roommate who had just moved from Lynchburg in S.W. Virginia. Apparently, the open carry etiquettte down there was to place your weapon on the passenger's seat of your car in plain view. Not knowing any better, he continued the practice after he moved, and would drive all around D.C., to work and on errands, with a loaded 45 auto sitting on the seat beside him. He did this for months before I discovered it and set him straight, but even then, he had a hard time understanding what the problem was.

[PUGACHEV]

Back in the '70s, when I lived in D.C. for a while, I had a roommate who had just moved from Lynchburg in S.W. Virginia. Apparently, the open carry etiquettte down there was to place your weapon on the passenger's seat of your car in plain view. Not knowing any better, he continued the practice after he moved, and would drive all around D.C., to work and on errands, with a loaded 45 auto sitting on the seat beside him. He did this for months before I discovered it and set him straight, but even then, he had a hard time understanding what the problem was.

[Drango]

We have the same law here in WA

We do? Seriously, I own a gun which I bring out once ever 10 years and then put back into my safe. (Translation: I'm not into guns very much) So, I can strap it on to my side and walk around? Do I need to register it? Can I take it on the Ferry?

[Mulder]

The officers were "extremely polite" and were hoping that some of the men were in law enforcement, said Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the police department

How come? Exactly what law is so important that it requires police being armed, while the rest of us aren't.

[Darnright]

"Van Cleave said the gun owners might have been out celebrating a law that took effect July 1. Virginia statute 15.2-915 now completely prohibits any locality from enacting any regulations on gun ownership, carrying, storage or purchase, except for rules related to the workforce. Alexandria, for example, had an ordinance prohibiting openly carrying guns. It is now invalid, Van Cleave said."

Man, won't this law have ol' Sarah Brady's panties in a major wad!

Chuckle, chuckle.

[Mulder]

In the first episode, at a Starbucks, Fairfax police wrongly confiscated weapons from two college students and charged them with a misdemeanor. Police realized their mistake, returned the guns and tore up the charges the next day

The college students should sue the pants off the arresting officer and his department.

They were unlawfully detained, had private property unlawfully seized, and their civil Rights were violated.

As such, they should be millionaires.

[HairOfTheDog]

Like I said, yes, you are within the law to open carry. You only need a Concealed Weapon Permit to conceal weapons, not to wear them openly.

That said, when was the last time you saw it happen? Doing it will get the cops called.

[Redbob]

BY GOLLY!
Now THERE's a group of "activists"!

Bravo to the members of the VCDL!!!!

[HairOfTheDog]

As such, they should be millionaires.

At our expense? No thanks. I am not one to think every delay in life is reason to get rich. They did it to prove a point and they proved it. They got what they wanted, the cops got a reminder about the law for a situation rarely seen today. Everyone wins.

[Mulder]

That said, when was the last time you saw it happen? Doing it will get the cops called.

So what? If it's legal then you have nothing to worry about.

If they arrest you, you can sue the crap out of them.

If not, it gives more cops the opportunity to see an armed populace, which is good. Too many of them have an "only cops should be armed" mindset.

[Neil E. Wright]

Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Allow me to pile on:
Kristen, you brainless twit! Your statement is worth dwelling on given its incomprehensible magnitude.
I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. World-class, A-1, top of the heap, triple whopper with cheese, supersized stupid. So stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. One-of-a-kind, global, universal, intergalactic stupid.
You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularly, extraordinarily, incredibly, bewilderingly stupid.
Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your life is a monument to stupidity.
I am breathless that anyone or anything in our universe can really be this stupid. You are a primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of stupidity that we know. A behemoth, a leviathan, a colossus of stupidity. ±

"The Era of Osama lasted about an hour, from the time the first plane hit the tower to the moment the General Militia of Flight 93 reported for duty."
Toward FREEDOM

[Redbob]

"I own a gun which I bring out once ever 10 years and then put back into my safe. (Translation: I'm not into guns very much) So, I can strap it on to my side and walk around? Do I need to register it? Can I take it on the Ferry?"

Please sell your gun to someone who will take the time to both learn to use it properly and to familiarize himself with the laws governing its' use - beginning with the applicable portions of the Bill of Rights...

[HairOfTheDog]

See my next.

Doing stuff to "get a rise out of the cops and prove a point" might be fun, but it isn't deserving of my sympathetic check for your trouble. No lawsuit, sorry.

[Darnright]

Here is the text of Virginia's new law: Virginia Law §18.2-287.4 Carrying loaded firearms in public § 18.2-287.4 Carrying loaded firearms in public areas prohibited; penalty It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded firearm on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public (i) in any city with a population of 160,000 or more or (ii) in any county having an urban county executive form of government or any county or city surrounded thereby or adjacent thereto or in any county having a county manager form of government. The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid permit to carry such firearm or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. For purposes of this section, "firearm" means any; (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol which expels a projectile by action of an explosion and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than twenty rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or; (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered. Any firearm carried in violation of this section may be forfeited to the Commonwealth pursuant to the provisions of §18.2-310. The exemptions set out in §18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. *************************************************************************** VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right. VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org ***************************************************************************

[Mulder]

At our expense?

And at what "expense" was our Right to keep and bear arms secured?

Yes, ultimately the taxpayers will have to foot some of the bill. But then they (we) will be more inclined to ensure that our elected officials don't subvert the law while in office.

I am not one to think every delay in life is reason to get rich

If the state unlawfully detains you, sure it is.

Especially if they charge you, or seize private property unlawfully. (Keep in mind that even being charged with a crime sticks with you for life).

They did it to prove a point and they proved it

Good for them. I wish more people would do so.

the cops got a reminder about the law for a situation rarely seen today

Gee... if you or I detained someone illegally, we'd be charged with "felony kidnapping".

If cops are dumb enough to not know the laws, then they need to find a different job (or does the axiom "ignorance of the law is no excuse" only apply to us lowly peasants?).

And if they are evil enough to arrest someone for peaceably carrying a weapon, *they* need to be the ones going to jail.

BTW, speaking of laws, these "cops" very likely committed federal felonies by violating the civil Rights of the two citizens they arrested.

[Drango]

Please sell your gun to someone who will take the time to both learn to use it properly and to familiarize himself with the laws governing its' use - beginning with the applicable portions of the Bill of Rights...

Who said I don't know how to use it? I'm a proud graduate of an NRA certified safety/use class in California. I'm new to Washington so I bow to your superior knowledge of gun laws here. As you are an expert in the Bill of Rights...May I open carry in every State?

[HairOfTheDog]

I know all that you know, I believe in the same rights you do, I just value discretion more than you. I carry concealed and that fact has never disturbed one law inforcement officer I have ever come in contact with. If it did, be assured, I would quietly win. You would win too, you'd just look more hysterical.

[singletrack]

Bicyclists have a movement called " critical mass" that takes place on the last Friday of every month. An unofficial, unlead and unplanned group of riders gather and ride in a group large enough that you can feel safe on the road. A lot like the way it feels to ride a motorcycle in a large group. Because of the nature of CM rides some have gone REALLY bad because of stupid aggresive hippie types who provoke drivers or cops, but most are no more real hassel than a small funeral. ..........Anyway, gun owners who are licensed to carry should agree on a day a month to carry.

[Militiaman7]

Neil,

That was the best pile on I've read in a long long time. Congratulations!

[westmex]

His/her profile says he/she is in CA. not WA. Doubt if he/she can get any kind of carry permit in CA. unless he/she knows Finestein....

[Mulder]

Doing stuff to "get a rise out of the cops and prove a point" might be fun, but it isn't deserving of my sympathetic check for your trouble.

So not only are we peasants supposed to know the law, but also we are also supposed to know what is likely to "get a rise out of the cops"?

Tell me. Do you call the cops and ask for permission before you run that green light?

BTW, even if you jump through all the hoops to get a carry "permit" in Virginia, it is still illegal to carry concealed in a restaurant there. Open carry is the only way to go legally. They also have this little "gotcha" in their laws, where if you carry "openly" it can be considered "concealed" if it's only partially in view. So it's easy to see why so many Virginias want to carry open in a very clear manner.

No lawsuit, sorry.

Most cops are decent folks. But some aren't. The *only* thing crooked people (cops or otherwise) fear is power and money. You can't reason with them. They aren't going to "feel bad" for violating your Rights or my Rights. Corrupt people don't have a conscience.

Since they only care about power or money, you have to hit them where it hurts, and that's where lawyers come into play.

[endthematrix]

Because LE dosn't know gun laws!

"So we've had to ensure that all of our officers are updated on the nuances of Virginia law that allow citizens to carry firearms in public places."

"On July 2....And three times in the last month" Looks like the cops aren't getting the messege.

[Mulder]

May I open carry in every State?

It depends. In many states, "open carry" is the only way to legally do so.

In other states, "concealed carry" is the only way to legally do so.

And yet in other states, "open" is legal in some places that "concealed" is illegal and vice versa.

And many bootlickers will tell you that you shouldn't openly carry even where it is not illegally, but the way I see it, a Right not exercised is a Right lost.

[HairOfTheDog]

So not only are we peasants supposed to know the law, but also we are also supposed to know what is likely to "get a rise out of the cops"?

You can pretend to be naive, but I'm not. This was a game they played, a day of victorious activism. I am just calling it what it is, instead of acting like these guys were blindsided, they weren't, it was a setup. Good day.

[RippleFire]

bump

[HairOfTheDog]

His/her profile says he/she is in CA. not WA

Ah.... well then, that would be different! He used that "we" thing like he was in WA too.

[nothingnew]

We have the same law here in WA

Same here in CO. The trick is open carry when you're drving. We leave the gun on the dashboard while driving, or they'll get you for concealed without permit.

FMCDH(BITS)

[HairOfTheDog]

I guess that works, I just get the permit ;~D

[Mulder]

I just value discretion more than you

Like I said earlier, in Virginia, it makes sense to openly carry if you are going to a restaurant because of the "gotcha" in their laws.

As for "discretion" I'm not interested in getting in a discussion of the tactical advantages of one carry mode over another. Except to say, in general concealed is better tactically, especially as the population density increases.

My support of open carry is first and foremost, about the exercise of our Rights as Free men and women.

Also, I think there are societal benefits to open carry since 1) sheeple seeing armed citizens become more acclimated to it, which is good for the RKBA; and 2) cops need to see armed citizens in order to keep them from getting a superiority complex.

It is not good for a society to see *only* the police and military armed.

[TheDon]

Now that's cool! I can just see a criminal coming into that restaurant to rob it, looking over at the armed citizens, and then doing a u-turn out the door.

[Mulder]

Looks like the cops aren't getting the messege.

They'll get the message as soon as one of them has to pay a million bucks in a lawsuit, and another gets charged with a federal felony for civil Rights violation (oh, I forgot, if they break the law, all they have to do is say "we're sorry")

[notforhire]

If the cops know the law, why would they come?

[Mulder]

You can pretend to be naive, but I'm not. This was a game they played, a day of victorious activism. I am just calling it what it is, instead of acting like these guys were blindsided, they weren't, it was a setup. Good day.

It's not illegal.

They weren't hurting anyone.

They weren't breaking the law.

They weren't threating anyone.

Again, they did NOTHING illegal. There are over 20000 gun edicts in this country, and they abided by every last one of them. Which is obviously better than the cops did, in this situation.

So what is the f*****g problem? Aren't cops supposed to know the law? This is not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, at least not yet.

My rant really isn't directed at you, but I'm just getting tired of people expecting Americans to not only obey all the written edicts (even when the cops don't know them), but also obey all the "unwritten" edicts.

[Drango]

He used that "we" thing like he was in WA too.

Well those of us who live in two States sometimes have a hard time keeping our web pages up to date...

I've been to a least two Fort Lewis "Support our Troop Rallies" and at least one Freeper picnic...We may have met. See you around... if I'm not in California for the next event.

[HairOfTheDog]

My life is so boring I never forget where I am at any given point. Well met, Drango :~D

[Lester Moore]

a Right not exercised is a Right lost.

You hit the nail on the head. Why do so many of us seem to feel some apprehension about doing something that is legal? Because most LEO presume some special attention is neccessary if you do exercise your right to open carry. They just gotta check you out. That 'special attention' is harassment.