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Hawking Changes His Mind on the Nature of Black Holes
Associated Press ^ | Jul 15, 2004 | Jane Wardell

Posted on 07/15/2004 8:30:32 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar

LONDON (AP) - After almost 30 years of arguing that a black hole swallows up everything that falls into it, astrophysicist Stephen Hawking backpedaled Thursday. In doing so, he lost one of the most famous bets in recent scientific history.

The world-famous author of a "Brief History of Time" said he and other scientists had gotten it wrong - the galactic traps may in fact allow information to escape.

"I've been thinking about this problem for the last 30 years, and I think I now have the answer to it," Hawking told the British Broadcasting Corp.'s "Newsnight" program.

"A black hole only appears to form but later opens up and releases information about what fell inside. So we can be sure of the past and predict the future."

(Excerpt) Read more at ap.tbo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: physics
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1 posted on 07/15/2004 8:30:33 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Jet Jaguar
SO if no information escaped, the black hole would be completely invisible? interesting....
2 posted on 07/15/2004 8:32:24 PM PDT by .cnI redruM (Bury/Deadwards 2004!!)
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To: .cnI redruM

The original theory said ... that's why it is black.


3 posted on 07/15/2004 8:34:41 PM PDT by LouisWu (Diligence is my watchword. Well...'Casio' is my watchword, but 'diligence' is kinda cool.)
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To: Jet Jaguar; .cnI redruM

Look here :-)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1171375/posts


4 posted on 07/15/2004 8:35:52 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: Jet Jaguar

Thanks, Steven. Keep up the good work and let us know from time to time what you've been thinking about even though none of it has anything to do with reality or practical application of any kind and even though Black Holes may just be a big quantum physics gag from a guy who hasn't had much to do for THIRTY YEARS!!!!


5 posted on 07/15/2004 8:38:15 PM PDT by Deb (Hey, Sen. Kerry...why the long face?)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Initially, cosmologists believed the holes were like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up everything in their path.

No, that's Roseanne Barr.

6 posted on 07/15/2004 8:38:27 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: RadioAstronomer

Interesting.


7 posted on 07/15/2004 8:39:41 PM PDT by stylin_geek (Koffi: 0, G.W. Bush: (I lost count))
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To: Jet Jaguar
Well, even I knew that.

So9

8 posted on 07/15/2004 8:39:54 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
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To: NutCrackerBoy
"initially, cosmologists believed the holes were like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up everything in their path.

No, that's Roseanne Barr.

Lewinski

9 posted on 07/15/2004 8:41:48 PM PDT by spokeshave (strategery + schadenfreude = stratenschadenfreudery)
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To: .cnI redruM
SO if no information escaped, the black hole would be completely invisible? interesting....

Yes, but the true problem is that this results in the breakdown of causality. That is what has left physicists uneasy.

So9

10 posted on 07/15/2004 8:42:19 PM PDT by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
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To: Jet Jaguar

It's always intrigued me to think that there's "something" out there with enough gravitional pull to bend light.

...not to bring the wrath of astrophysics afficionados, but (chuckling as I say this) I always fail to see how any of this affects life on this planet in any measureable way. Because from what I read, if one of these things ever gets close enough to actually affect our "world", we have bigger problems than theorizing on what goes in, and what comes out of black holes. :-)

...even so...mighty interesting stuff this is! I still enjoy reading about it :-)


11 posted on 07/15/2004 8:42:41 PM PDT by hiredhand
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To: Jet Jaguar
Hawking did not elaborate on the BBC program how the information could be extracted from the black hole.

Stevio, let's hear the details. How can remnants of a black hole be recovered?

12 posted on 07/15/2004 8:42:51 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: stainlessbanner

ipod.


13 posted on 07/15/2004 8:44:14 PM PDT by Deb (Hey, Sen. Kerry...why the long face?)
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To: hiredhand
I've never really bought the whole idea of light bending. I'm willing to accept the idea of the mean free path between reflection or refraction being so minuscule that the path looks curved, but I'm not quite sold that it actually bends.
14 posted on 07/15/2004 8:50:09 PM PDT by .cnI redruM (Bury/Deadwards 2004!!)
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To: Jet Jaguar
"A lot of people wanted to believe that information escaped from black holes but they didn't know how it could get out."

I've known a few e-mail servers that exhibited that exact behavior.

15 posted on 07/15/2004 8:51:45 PM PDT by randog
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To: Deb
Thanks, Steven. Keep up the good work and let us know from time to time what you've been thinking about even though none of it has anything to do with reality or practical application of any kind and even though Black Holes may just be a big quantum physics gag from a guy who hasn't had much to do for THIRTY YEARS!!!!

Ummm...Wrong.

Here is a list of 184 publications by Dr. Stephen William Hawking that was compiled back in 2002. You may notice he is still publishing.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/pdf/pub.pdf

16 posted on 07/15/2004 8:54:04 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: RadioAstronomer
I don't see Tang on the list. Like I said...no practical application.
17 posted on 07/15/2004 8:58:27 PM PDT by Deb (Hey, Sen. Kerry...why the long face?)
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To: hiredhand; .cnI redruM
It's always intrigued me to think that there's "something" out there with enough gravitional pull to bend light.

Look here: http://www.pa.uky.edu/~cvj/as500_lec6/as500_lec6.html

and: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm

18 posted on 07/15/2004 9:00:20 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: .cnI redruM
I've never really bought the whole idea of light bending. I'm willing to accept the idea of the mean free path between reflection or refraction being so minuscule that the path looks curved, but I'm not quite sold that it actually bends.

Google gravitational lensing.

19 posted on 07/15/2004 9:01:16 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: Deb
no practical application

You are not curious at all how this universe works?

20 posted on 07/15/2004 9:02:38 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: .cnI redruM

I tell ya... :-)....I've studied exterior ballistics to a degree (for small arms) in the past, and I've ALWAYS been just slightly skeptical about how the differences are measured with things like "light bending" as opposed to more measureable (slower) things like projectiles traveling through a medium.

...actually, it makes my head spin to think about this whole blackhole issue. Interesting yes!....but strange stuff indeed. :-)

But what you said about the path looking curved reminded me of some of what I've studied in ballistics. Good point :-)


21 posted on 07/15/2004 9:03:33 PM PDT by hiredhand
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To: Jet Jaguar

"changes his mind" - since it is all speculation anyway, what difference does it make?


22 posted on 07/15/2004 9:10:18 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America)
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To: RadioAstronomer

Oh wow...thanks :-)...I've got them up now in seperate windows in Opera (my WWW browser), but will have to read them later. If I don't go to bed, I'm gonna turn into a toad! :-)


23 posted on 07/15/2004 9:12:22 PM PDT by hiredhand
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To: LiteKeeper
since it is all speculation anyway, what difference does it make?

Care to cite some references?

24 posted on 07/15/2004 9:12:47 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: hiredhand

You are most welcome! :-)


25 posted on 07/15/2004 9:13:16 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: Deb
reality or practical application

It does, though. This stuff is more real than any political theory.

26 posted on 07/15/2004 9:14:55 PM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: Jet Jaguar
The forfeit is an encyclopedia, from which Preskill can recover information at will.

Such creative minds...yet this is the best prize they could come up with for a bet? Boring!!

27 posted on 07/15/2004 9:18:35 PM PDT by Rokurota
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To: RadioAstronomer
You are not curious at all how this universe works?

It's turtles all the way down!

/obvious

28 posted on 07/15/2004 9:19:56 PM PDT by Gunslingr3
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To: LiteKeeper
"changes his mind" - since it is all speculation anyway, what difference does it make?

Right now, Paramount/Viacom is panicking, after getting reports of thousands of Star Trek fans throwing their multi-volume DVD episode collections in the garbage due to Hawking changing his mind about space physics.

Meanwhile, Disney has just announced they will re-release their 1978 feature film The Black Hole in a new multi-disc set featuring a text commentary track by Mr. Hawking. Besides that, no it doesn't make much difference.

29 posted on 07/15/2004 9:38:46 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Psalm 73)
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To: Jet Jaguar

I guess all those long nights of research at the titty bar have paid off. Seriously though, what goes through the mind of a stripper when Stephen Hawking is staring at her with a glazed look in his eyes - "This guy thinks I'm really hot" or "This guy must be pondering the origin of matter in universe."


30 posted on 07/15/2004 9:44:21 PM PDT by azcap
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To: hiredhand

Since you like ballistics, imagine the problems of properly leading a "quantum duck" - you know, that's the one flying along with the "QUARK! QUARK!" call.


31 posted on 07/15/2004 9:46:16 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon liberty, it is essential to examine principles - -)
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To: RadioAstronomer

Not only not curious, but some at times are downright hostile.


32 posted on 07/15/2004 10:17:26 PM PDT by kenth
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To: Jet Jaguar

He is obviously familiar with my Theory of the Brontasaurus.


33 posted on 07/15/2004 10:22:29 PM PDT by PoorMuttly ("BE Reagan !")
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To: Gunslingr3
See the turtle of enormouse girth,
On his back he holds the earth!
34 posted on 07/15/2004 10:23:18 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (Liberals are evidence that Satan is very active in this world)
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To: ImaGraftedBranch

Hile, Wordslinger.


35 posted on 07/15/2004 10:26:16 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum (A poverty-stricken middle class must be a disarmed middle class)
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To: Euro-American Scum

thankee-sai.


36 posted on 07/15/2004 10:32:01 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (Liberals are evidence that Satan is very active in this world)
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To: RadioAstronomer

I'd like to know how the toaster works.


37 posted on 07/15/2004 11:22:28 PM PDT by Deb (Hey, Sen. Kerry...why the long face?)
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To: RightWhale

I'm just messin' with you guys.


38 posted on 07/15/2004 11:24:58 PM PDT by Deb (Hey, Sen. Kerry...why the long face?)
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To: Jet Jaguar
So we can be sure of the past and predict the future.

Physics never ceases to amaze!

Someone corrected me on the earlier thread about Hawkings latest revelation in regards to the meaning of "information" in quantum physics. Seems I had it wrong. I still don't understand it, but here it DOES seem they're talking about something more than just quantum information (whatever that means, lol!).

39 posted on 07/15/2004 11:44:56 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: hiredhand
...not to bring the wrath of astrophysics afficionados, but (chuckling as I say this) I always fail to see how any of this affects life on this planet in any measureable way
well it doesn't, but then movies don't give any tangiblew good -- knowledge is a worthwhile pursuit in itself -- that's what makes us human
40 posted on 07/15/2004 11:58:43 PM PDT by Cronos (W2K4!)
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To: Jet Jaguar; Darksheare; King Prout; kenth; Deb; RadioAstronomer; Happygal; cyborg; GVgirl
Riiiiiight.

But when I posit a theory on quantum mechanics, the liberal media is all like: "Sure. We'll get right on that one...dumb-ass!"

Man, "Sky and Telescope" and "Astronomy" will be hearing from my attorneys, I can assure you of that much.

Stephen Hawking?

Pffft!

So I don't hold the Lucasian professorship in mathematics at Cambridge, whaddya gonna do 'bout it?

Greatest physicist since Sir Isaac Newton.

Big friggin' whoop!

41 posted on 07/16/2004 12:31:25 AM PDT by The Scourge of Yazid ("He must have committed a grave sin. I swear to you, Satan himself could have pissed in that water.")
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To: Jet Jaguar

Oh, I thought this was a Whoppi Goldberg thread. Sorry.


42 posted on 07/16/2004 4:31:14 AM PDT by snopercod (Robert Bork for recess appointment to the Supreme Court)
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To: .cnI redruM
I've never really bought the whole idea of light bending. I'm willing to accept the idea of the mean free path between reflection or refraction being so minuscule that the path looks curved, but I'm not quite sold that it actually bends.

The light doesn't bend. The spacetime it is passing through is bent (or warped) by the hypergravity enough that it is easily noticeable.

All gravity wells do this to one degree or another. It's been demonstrated with observations of bodies as small as our Moon. It's only recently that we've had instruments sensitive enough to detect the "bending" with anything less massive than a (presumed) black hole or a galaxy.

The light is still going "straight" as ever, whatever that really means. It's the reality around it that is shifting.

43 posted on 07/16/2004 4:42:37 AM PDT by Phsstpok (often wrong, but never in doubt)
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To: snopercod

No, he said black HOLES, not black ho's... ;7)


44 posted on 07/16/2004 4:49:58 AM PDT by ez (TERRORISTS FOR KERRY!!!)
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To: .cnI redruM

My thoughts exactly.


45 posted on 07/16/2004 4:52:12 AM PDT by mict42
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To: RadioAstronomer
I actually went to a talk once on Gravitational Lensing. The phenomena is similar to some of the optical effects that you get when you observe visible light. The visual images the professor showed me reminded me of Sun Dogs, Halos etc....

I'm not sure it's the light being bent as much as it being refracted and reflected an innumerable number of times between the observer and the emitter. A black hole would leave a rather impressive absorption/scattering "footprint" from it's physical size alone.
46 posted on 07/16/2004 6:49:21 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (Bury/Deadwards 2004!!)
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To: .cnI redruM

A link you might like.

http://astron.berkeley.edu/~jcohn/lens.html


47 posted on 07/16/2004 6:54:54 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer
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To: Jet Jaguar

"astrophysicist Stephen Hawking backpedaled Thursday"

Hmmmmmmmmmmm is he a Kerry supporter by any chance? :)


48 posted on 07/16/2004 8:48:14 AM PDT by Grig
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To: .cnI redruM
as it being refracted

It looks like a lens has been formed out of space in the vicinity of a massive object. It looks like refraction to me, but we have been operating under Kant's system for a long time now: the object in itself can never be seen, but what we see conforms to our pre-conceived ideas. That is, objects conform to our concepts rather than our concepts conforming to objects. You can see only what your mind is ready to see.

49 posted on 07/16/2004 9:24:33 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: ImaGraftedBranch

We are well met, indeed. Looking forward to future palavers, if it do ya. After all, we deal in hard calibers and hot lead.


50 posted on 07/16/2004 9:36:52 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum (A poverty-stricken middle class must be a disarmed middle class)
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