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8 years later, TWA 800 case just heating up!
WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Friday, July 16, 2004 | Jack Cashill

Posted on 07/16/2004 4:53:39 AM PDT by JohnHuang2

Edited on 07/16/2004 4:55:29 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

Last July 17, the major media made no comment that seven years prior, on July 17, 1996, TWA Flight 800 exploded off the coast of Long Island, killing all 230 people on board.

If the media took note of the date "July 17" at all last year, it was only to observe that American soldiers had found it scrawled on walls throughout Iraq. July 17, after all, was Iraq's national liberation day, the day Saddam helped lead the Baath Party to power in 1968, the day he seized the presidency in 1979, and not impossibly, the day he took his revenge on the United States in 1996.

This year, as every year, thousands of TWA Flight 800 family members and other interested parties will honor the date. Among them is Capt. Ray Lahr. Just last week, the retired United Airline pilot learned that his case against the National Transportation Safety Board and the Central Intelligence Agency is still on track. On Monday, Aug. 2, Lahr and his attorney, John Clarke of Washington, will square off against the NTSB and the CIA at the U.S. District Court in Los Angeles.

Lahr is hoping to force the NTSB and CIA to disclose the data upon which they based what Lahr calls "the impossible zoom-climb." As the agencies and Lahr both understand, the zoom-climb is the Achilles heel of the TWA Flight 800 investigation.

The FBI first publicly advanced the zoom-climb scenario when it bowed out of the case in November 1997. Its agents did so to negate the stubborn testimony of the hundreds of eyewitnesses who had sworn they saw a flaming, smoke-trailing, zigzagging object destroy TWA Flight 800.

To make its case, the FBI presented a video prepared by the CIA. A key animation sequence in that video showed an internal fuel tank explosion blowing the nose off the aircraft, which then "pitched up abruptly and climbed several thousand feet from its last recorded altitude of about 13,800 feet to a maximum altitude of about 17,000 feet." This rocketing aircraft, claimed the video, looked like a missile and confused the eyewitnesses.

This animation was essential to close the investigation. Without it, there was no way to explain what these hundreds of eyewitnesses – many of them highly credible – had actually seen. A veteran safety investigator and a serious researcher in the field of gravity, Ray Lahr watched this animation in utter disbelief. He knew this scenario to be impossible, and he set out to prove it. When he learned that not a single eyewitness had seen the plane ascend, including airline pilots who had watched it from above, he redoubled his efforts to discover the basic physics behind the alleged zoom-climb. For the last several years, however, despite numerous FOIA requests, the NTSB has refused to cooperate. The impressively stubborn Lahr finally took the agency to court.

Lahr has done an excellent job pulling the sometimes-fractious TWA 800 community together to assist him. Many key people have filed sworn affidavits with Lahr, including retired Rear Adm. Clarence Hill, and their collective commentary has to impress even the most skeptical of observers. All of this evidence, including the court papers, can be found at RayLahr.com, as well as in past articles on WorldNetDaily.

One question that has never been resolved is just how the CIA animation project came to pass. Two recent books, however, do shed light on the dynamics of the video's creation. One is the much-discussed "Against All Enemies," by Richard Clarke, then chairman of the Clinton administration's Coordinating Security Group on terrorism. The second is Murray Weiss's recent and highly readable book, "The Man Who Warned America," on the subject of John O'Neill, a terrorist expert with the FBI who died in the World Trade Center on Sept. 11.

Within 30 minutes of TWA Flight 800's destruction, Clarke relates in his book, he had convened a meeting of the CSG in the White House situation room. "The FAA," Clarke reports, "was at a total loss for an explanation. The flight path and the cockpit communications were normal. The aircraft had climbed to 17,000 feet, then there was no aircraft."

Clarke here serves up two significant untruths in a book replete with them. The first is that the Federal Aviation Administration was at "a total loss" for an explanation. In fact, it was the FAA that prompted the meeting and did so for a very specific and frightening reason: Its personnel believed the aircraft had been attacked. As NTSB Chairman Jim Hall would report in a confidential November 1996 report, "Top intelligence and security officials were told in a video conference from the White House Situation Room that radar tapes showed an object headed at the plane before it exploded."

Clarke also deceives the reader about altitude. The FAA never reported an altitude of 17.000 feet – nothing close. The FAA knew that the last recorded altitude of TWA Flight 800 was "about 13,800 feet" as even the CIA animation later admits. In the retelling, Clarke pads in the zoom-climb differential on the night of the crash and attributes it falsely to the FAA.

Weiss, who had excellent access to O'Neill's FBI colleagues, gets much closer to the truth as to the motive behind the emergency White House meeting. "The FAA," he writes, "initially reported spotting a radar blip on their tapes that indicated there was another plane or projectile near TWA Flight 800 when it exploded." This much is true. Weiss, however, is misled on his next point, namely that the FAA told the FBI one day later that "there was no blip. There were no missiles picked up on the JFK scanners." The sighting was an "anomaly."

In truth, to its credit, the FAA refused to change its story despite the pressure to do so. When in November 1996, the NTSB leaned on the FAA to "agree that there is no evidence that would suggest a high speed target merged with TWA 800," the FAA refused.

"We cannot comply with your request," the FAA's David Thomas responded. "By alerting law-enforcement agencies, air-traffic control personnel simply did what was prudent at the time and reported what appeared to them to be a suspicious event. To do less would have been irresponsible."

To set the record straight on this issue, Ray Lahr persuaded one key witness, James Holtsclaw, to go public for the first time. In 1996, Holtsclaw was serving as the deputy assistant for the Western Region of the Air Transport Association. Within a week of the crash, Holtsclaw received the radar tape directly from an NTSB investigator frustrated by its suppression. "The tape shows a primary target at 1200 knots converging with TWA 800, during the climb out phase of TWA 800," swears Holtsclaw on the Lahr affidavit.

In fact, before the investigation was through, authorities would introduce five different explanations to rationalize away that "blip." This obvious dissembling may explain why investigators felt the need to smuggle out evidence. Holtsclaw's informant would be the first of several – at least four of whom would be either suspended from the investigation or arrested.

Within weeks of the crash, the FBI would interview more than 700 eyewitnesses. By its own count, 270 of them saw lights streaking upward toward the plane. Defense Department analysts also debriefed some of these witnesses, 34 of whom, according to the FBI, described events "consistent with the characteristics of the flight of [anti-aircraft] missiles." There were also scores of witness drawings, some so accurate and vivid they could chill the blood.

About four weeks after the crash, Clarke reports in "Against All Enemies," he met with O'Neill, who told him that the eyewitness interviews "were pointing to a missile attack, a Stinger." Given what the FBI knew at the time, this much seems credible.

"[TWA 800] was at 15,000 feet," Clarke allegedly responds. "No Stinger or any other missile like it can go that high." One would think that on so sensitive and contentious a point, Clarke would have made an effort to get the altitude of TWA 800 right or even consistently wrong. He does neither. In his scarily sloppy book, the boastful Clarke finesses credit for the zoom-climb and, in a stunning revelation, seizes full credit for deducing the exploding fuel tank part of that scenario even before the NTSB did.

Clarke, however, has had a hard time keeping his story straight. In an earlier New Yorker article on O'Neill soon after Sept. 11, Clarke tells reporter Lawrence Wright that it was O'Neill who insisted that TWA Flight 800 was out of the range of the Stinger, and O'Neill who believed that the "ascending flare" that the witnesses saw must have been something else, like "the ignition of leaking fuel from the aircraft."

Weiss likewise gives all credit to O'Neill for the zoom-climb scenario, thinking that it is indeed "credit" O'Neill deserves. Weiss contends that O'Neill not only conceived the zoom-climb scenario, but that he also "persuaded the CIA to do a video simulation of his scenario." Under an eight-panel recreation of the zoom-climb in the photo section of his book, Weiss writes that O'Neill used the CIA video simulation "to quash any fears that the disaster was a terrorist event." This last point is tellingly true.

Clarke and O'Neill have not been the only two agents angling for credit. The best-documented claim, in fact, comes from "CIA Analyst 1" during his April 1999 grilling by a few honest, rank-and-file NTSB investigators. As the CIA analyst relates, the zoom-climb insight came to him like an epiphany. He traced the moment of awareness to the precise hour of 10 p.m. on Dec. 30, 1996.

Said the analyst, "There was a realization, having all the data laid out in front of me, that you can explain what the eyewitnesses are seeing with only the burning aircraft." The analyst came to his startling conclusion after reviewing only about 12 percent of the interview statements. The CIA did no interviews of its own.

What puzzled the NTSB guys was just how many eyewitnesses actually saw a plane with a ruptured center fuel tank rocketing upward with burning fuel spewing behind it (especially with the center fuel tank being essentially empty at take-off). The CIA cited only 21 witnesses. But as the questioning of CIA Analyst 1 wore on, it became clear there were fewer still. An NTSB investigator finally sighed in frustration, "If it's only one or two of [the eyewitnesses], it's not representative of all of them."

Analyst 1 then pulled out his trump card, his key witness, the man who had seen everything: "That [zoom-climb] is something that a few eyewitnesses saw. The guy on the bridge saw that." As we have documented on these pages before, the man on the bridge saw no such thing. The CIA or the FBI (or both or Richard Clarke) manufactured an interview with this man, Mike Wire of Philadelphia, out of whole cloth. Wire's "second interview" is the most crucial bit of evidence in the entire investigation, the evidence around which the zoom-climb scenario was created, and it's fully and provably counterfeit.

Whether Clarke or O'Neill or the CIA analyst were responsible for the zoom-climb scenario individually or together is not relevant to technicians like Ray Lahr. Nor has he focused on how an FBI middle manager like O'Neill could have breached the historic wall between the two agencies and enlisted the CIA in a project that would take at least 11 months from conception to execution. No, what most troubles Lahr is how three men with no discernible aviation or engineering experience could possibly have used any science whatsoever to arrive at such critical conclusions.

The truth of the matter proves elusive. The CIA analyst lied shamelessly in his testimony. Richard Clarke lies shamelessly throughout his book. The jury is still out on O'Neill, but the evidence is not encouraging. As Weiss well documents, O'Neill maintained a wife and two children in New Jersey and simultaneously cajoled at least three women in three different cities into thinking that he was going to marry them. What is more, despite maintaining two households, O'Neill somehow managed to live extravagantly on a government salary. In an otherwise flattering profile, Weiss concedes of O'Neill, "He always seemed to be lying about some aspect of his life."

Whether O'Neill helped conceal the demise of TWA Flight 800 remains unclear. Although Weiss attributes both the zoom-climb scenario and the final TWA 800 report to O'Neill, no reporter made this connection while he was alive. In her book on the crash investigation, "Deadly Departure," CNN reporter Christine Negroni does not even mention O'Neill. In her FBI-friendly book, "In The Blink of an Eye," AP reporter Pat Milton pays O'Neill little heed, but she does reveal that upon hearing the news of the crash, John O'Neill's first call went to none other than Richard Clarke, and it is O'Neill, Clarke's best friend in the FBI, who plays the role of tragic hero in "Against All Enemies."

Ray Lahr will leave it to other courts to establish who was the architect of the greatest peacetime deception in American history. His interest is the zoom-climb scenario itself, according to Weiss, "the most significant part" of the final case-closing FBI presentation.

"A little basic physics," adds Weiss naively, "helped explain what witnesses saw and heard in the summer skies off Long Island." Lahr is hoping that the federal courts will finally force the NTSB and CIA to explain finally what those "little basic physics" are.




TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: clarke; clarketreason; clarkeweasel; concpiracy; conspiracy; klintonkommies; richardclarke; treason; twa800; twaflight800
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To: Vigilantcitizen
Not all terrorists operate from the same playbook.

So we're faced with a group of publicity shy terrorists? Doesn't that kind of contradict their goal of making people terrified of them?

51 posted on 07/16/2004 6:32:34 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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To: Vigilantcitizen
Who has claimed responsibility for 9-11?

bin Laden. Right off the bat.

52 posted on 07/16/2004 6:33:06 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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To: Non-Sequitur

And a missile going for "center of mass" of the heat sources, or dithering between two of them, might hit the fuselage.


53 posted on 07/16/2004 6:34:54 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (hoplophobia is a mental aberration rather than a mere attitude)
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To: Non-Sequitur; Half Vast Conspiracy
bin Laden. Right off the bat.

True. My bad. I googled with the wrong terms.

If Saddam was behind OKC, why would he claim responsibility? He had a country to lose, bin laden didn't.

54 posted on 07/16/2004 6:36:59 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: Vigilantcitizen
One more for the list. Jayna Davis: THE THIRD TERRORIST --- yes, Iraq was involved in the OKC bombing.
55 posted on 07/16/2004 6:39:56 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: Vigilantcitizen
Nobody has explicitly claimed responsibility, but Al-Queda has praised the attacks and they have at least hinted at their involvement.

But, if I concede this one, tell me how we ever know who is doing these things. If a group does claim responsibiltiy, I could say they are lying. If no one claims responsibility, I could say that someone did, but the government hid it from us. It is endless. So, what is the source for the truth?

56 posted on 07/16/2004 6:43:01 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (If the Rapture is coming, should I insist on a non-Christian pilot?)
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To: JohnHuang2

bump


57 posted on 07/16/2004 6:43:09 AM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: JohnHuang2

another coincidence??? bump


58 posted on 07/16/2004 6:43:47 AM PDT by True Capitalist
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To: FreedomPoster
Maybe, just maybe, more so.

The paths of departing aircraft, repeat themselves almost exactly. So, a terrorist could well just fish off Long Island for a few days, get a idea of local inshore and off shore boat traffic and departing aircraft routes and mark it all with a GPS. In other words he/they could position themselves directly under the flight paths. This would shorten the distance for the Stinger.

Next, Flight 800 is destroyed at around 13,000-14,000, however the missile could of hit the aircraft at a lower altitude, say 10,000. Furthermore if the missile hit a say 10,000, the tracking of the jet could of started at 5,000 where a lock was received on the large heat source of any or all of the the four very large engines.
59 posted on 07/16/2004 6:45:40 AM PDT by Leisler (Democrat Plantation Slaves Revolt!)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy
But, if I concede this one, tell me how we ever know who is doing these things. If a group does claim responsibiltiy, I could say they are lying. If no one claims responsibility, I could say that someone did, but the government hid it from us. It is endless. So, what is the source for the truth?

That is a very good question. Hopefully, one day the truth will come out.

60 posted on 07/16/2004 6:45:59 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: JohnHuang2

" Holtsclaw received the radar tape directly from an NTSB investigator"

Is there a copy to view?


61 posted on 07/16/2004 6:46:53 AM PDT by gathersnomoss
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To: jwpjr

And after the shootdown, naked bodies floating in the same area despite falling several miles after the jet was destroyed. Iran bitched for what? three days a week? Some years from now the truth of this will out as well.


62 posted on 07/16/2004 6:49:49 AM PDT by xone
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To: Diogenesis
I don't believe that I am one who wears tin foil as a cap. However, why is it every time we look at all of these tragedy's there is a Clinton link? Many of which are strong!

More importantly, if the links are true why the complacency? Many of these and future attacks could have been avoided.
63 posted on 07/16/2004 6:50:46 AM PDT by gathersnomoss
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To: jwpjr
You are a naval commander. A big plane takes off from a combined military/civilian airfield in a country that is at least hostile toward yours. It heads for your fleet. The pilot refuses to identify himself. You have ten seconds to decide what to do. Go.
64 posted on 07/16/2004 6:51:03 AM PDT by NYFriend
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To: FreedomPoster
And a missile going for "center of mass" of the heat sources, or dithering between two of them, might hit the fuselage.

But IR seekers don't do that, they go for the heat source itself. And if it did 'dither' between engines then it would hit the wing, not broadside the fuselage.

65 posted on 07/16/2004 6:54:25 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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To: beyond the sea

Always follow the money. The Beat Goes On. It is sad, but we are all pawns in a larger play. Keep the faith.


66 posted on 07/16/2004 6:55:26 AM PDT by gathersnomoss
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To: jwpjr
That same or a similar "documentary" offered the "impossible zoom climb" scenario to cover the streaking ascending object that many witnessed. Something is wrong here and I hope the truth comes out. I remember that James(?) Kalstrom from the FBI retired shortly after this incident. I remember where he was quoted (off the record) responding positively to a question about a missile striking the plane. To think they think we are all this dumb is numbing.

mc
67 posted on 07/16/2004 6:56:20 AM PDT by mcshot ("When you don't think too good, don't think too much" Ted Williams)
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To: JohnHuang2
http://www.twa800.com/news/wnd-3-30-04.htm
On Sept. 11, 2001, Sen. Kerry appeared on the "Larry King Show." Kerry's honest admission to King bears scrutiny:

We have always known this could happen. We've warned about it. We've talked about it. I regret to say, as I served on the Intelligence Committee up until last year. I can remember after the bombings of the embassies, after TWA 800, we went through this flurry of activity, talking about it, but not really doing [sic] hard work of responding.

On Sept. 24,2001, there was no mistaking the meaning of Sen. Kerry's remarks. I personally watched him say the following to Chris Matthews on "Hardball."

You know, we've had terrorism for a long time now. We've had the Achille Lauro, the Munich Olympics, the pipe bomb at the Olympics in Atlanta, the TWA 800, the bombing of embassies, and it's not going to disappear overnight.

What did John Kerry know and when did he know it? I'd like to hear about the TWA 800 Terror attack
68 posted on 07/16/2004 6:56:38 AM PDT by nonkultur
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To: Red Badger
The dumbed down populace dug the video and had no after though. I know better!
69 posted on 07/16/2004 6:57:37 AM PDT by gathersnomoss
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To: JohnHuang2

Thanks for posting


70 posted on 07/16/2004 7:01:24 AM PDT by Yasotay
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To: OESY

I didn't know the "removal of whistleblower" stuff. Interestingly, I picked up a small town newspaper one day and read pretty much the entire paper, including the obits, even though I did not know anyone from the area except for a few relatives who were NOT dead yet. Anywho, there was the obituary of a Navy diver who was in his mid 20s and who died in a diving accident in Florida. (I think it was FLorida.) The obit said he had been a part of the team of divers who located parts and bodies from TWA 800.


71 posted on 07/16/2004 7:03:46 AM PDT by petitfour
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To: Ken in Denver

Uhhhhn--not really.

9/11 has not been "repeated," either.

And some terror group DID take credit for the attack.


72 posted on 07/16/2004 7:06:30 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: FreedomPoster; Atlantic Friend
From your link, FP, locations of some of the 736 eyewitnesses.


73 posted on 07/16/2004 7:08:00 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: Red Badger

Correct. An explosion from "fumes" has to occur when the 'fume/air' mix is precisely X (I don't know what it is for kerosene fumes.)

In the case of natural gas, though, the mix has to be precisely 7% IIRC.

So there are a LOT of co-incidences which must have happened--besides the fact that there was NO OTHER Boeing plane on which this EVER happened.


74 posted on 07/16/2004 7:11:31 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Diogenesis
Spew! Nice photo! Reminds me of bull dyke guard in Lesbo prison movie!

Damn thing about the center fuel tanks! They just keep exploding. Like that one I was on the other day,....what's that??,...they haven't exploded,...????ever??? hmmmmmmmm!

75 posted on 07/16/2004 7:17:32 AM PDT by Doc Savage
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To: ninenot

Exactly! No one seems to ever put out the refutations of the "facts" of the gov't, NTSB, FBI, CIA, etc.......


76 posted on 07/16/2004 7:20:43 AM PDT by Red Badger (Wake me up when my 15 minutes of fame starts, so I can call my wife and let her know......)
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To: JohnHuang2
... the greatest peacetime deception in American history...

That's hard for me to believe.

77 posted on 07/16/2004 7:24:10 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: All
Black box transcript

Interesting bit towards the end, about a "crazy fuel flow indicator."

78 posted on 07/16/2004 7:37:30 AM PDT by Melpomene
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To: mcshot
I will never accept the NTSB's findings. I remember watching TV that night and there were too many eye witnesses describing a streaking object acending towards the plane. The following morning's newscasts said nothing about this.
79 posted on 07/16/2004 7:40:21 AM PDT by alice_in_bubbaland (We will always remember.We will always be proud.We will always be prepared, so we may always be free)
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To: jwpjr
"I remember news interviews"

If you do remember the interviews, then remember the person that had a video of the eastern sky from a patio dinning area. The FBI has the video and it is gone for now. It never saw the light of day.

People should always make copies before they give someone one. One for the LEO's, one for the media and one for yourself (original). If it is important enough to give to a LEO, then it is even greater that you keep one or it NEVER happened.

80 posted on 07/16/2004 7:56:58 AM PDT by Deguello
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To: Non-Sequitur

Not at all, it just keeps you from knowing which one of the multiple state sponsored terrorist groups to counter attack.

Kind of like the terrorists that wear masks. You know you've been hit and terrorized but you don't know where he lives.


81 posted on 07/16/2004 7:57:11 AM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: muawiyah

What does happen circa July 17 or 18 every year is that the Earth travels through the ancient debris trail of a comet. Rocks fall in seeming to travel from East to West. The first rocks have a very flat trajectory and actually appear to streak UP from the horizon.



This gets the award for creative post of the day. Of course, of the 43 listed meteor showers, there are none with a peak within less than 10 days from the event. And a plane getting hit by a meteor large enough to make it blow up, and it the right spot to make it blow up, is among the most improbable events imaginable. A faulty fuel tank or stinger missle are infinitely more probable.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/meteors/shower_list.html


82 posted on 07/16/2004 7:58:34 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Cold Heart
Kind of like the terrorists that wear masks. You know you've been hit and terrorized but you don't know where he lives.

Those mask-wearing terrortists still had no problem giving out the name of their group.

83 posted on 07/16/2004 8:00:05 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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To: mcshot

When Kahlstrom first faced the media, he mentioned that terrorism was possible. Later, when he did the center fuel tank commedy routine, his expression said that he did not believe a word of it.

This is my theory. They all knew what did it - a terrorist missile or maybe a bomb. They thought it would wreck tourism and air travel to admit the truth. I think the same scenario was true when the jet crashed in NY after 9/11. Soon after the mad shoe bomber was caught trying, and we have been scanning shoes ever since.

Clinton liked disasters. They helped him in the eyes of the public. Oklahoma City was good for him, even rescued his sorry behind. I am inclined to believe the Clintons were way too close to the source of these events, as shown by their relationship to Chinese spycraft.


84 posted on 07/16/2004 8:03:05 AM PDT by sine_nomine (Protect the weakest of the weak - the unborn babies.)
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To: ninenot
Correct. An explosion from "fumes" has to occur when the 'fume/air' mix is precisely X (I don't know what it is for kerosene fumes.)

Another certainty is that fuel leaking, or falling in mass for that matter, from an airliner moving at climbing speeds would not form a tight line that would look like the trail of a rocket if ignited. More Richard Clarke BS!

Clarke, however, has had a hard time keeping his story straight. In an earlier New Yorker article on O'Neill soon after Sept. 11, Clarke tells reporter Lawrence Wright that it was O'Neill who insisted that TWA Flight 800 was out of the range of the Stinger, and O'Neill who believed that the "ascending flare" that the witnesses saw must have been something else, like "the ignition of leaking fuel from the aircraft."

Clarke lies whenever possible. Clarke was/is Sick Willy's boy.

85 posted on 07/16/2004 8:06:59 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: Beelzebubba
Peak?

All it takes is the first rock if it's properly aimed.

On the other hand, we do have an evening "peak" international departure window occuring in that area at the time of the event, so that changes the probabilities considerably.

The Peak of Perseids will happen in August this year. At the same time the EARLIEST Perseids will be visible in MID JULY. Check out the perseid drift map at this site: http://skytour.homestead.com/met2004.html

Astronimically and geograpically speaking, this story has a great deal of bearing on the probabilities of meteors "doing stuff": ".... remember one of these spectacular meteors on a Friday night in October 1992. A brilliant greenish meteor traveled slowly across the sky in front me and astonished fans at a Westover High School football game. The meteor was a primetime event all along the East Coast since many other Friday night football fans caught a “falling star,” too. The meteor would become a meteorite seconds later, so called because wasn’t consumed by our atmosphere, it fell to Earth. Actually, it fell on the back of a 1972 Chevrolet Nova in Peekskill, N.Y. It pretty much totaled the car, which was parked in a driveway. (SEE: http://www.fayettevillenc.com/special/backyard/98as2607.htm )

86 posted on 07/16/2004 8:12:05 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Vigilantcitizen
Rudolph was a cop killer. He'd blow up a crowd at the Olympics, or an abortion mill to attract the attention of the police, or maybe to kill one on the scene already.

In fact, when he blew up that abortion mill in Atlanta, the cops came, gathered around, started eating doughnuts, and then A SECOND BOMB went off right there where they were gathered. But for the steel dumpster in the way he could have killed a lot of them.

Rudolph may or may not have opinions regarding abortion ~ he most definitely has opinions about cops.

87 posted on 07/16/2004 8:14:53 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ninenot

Link?


88 posted on 07/16/2004 8:26:35 AM PDT by Homer1
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To: Red Badger
"I, for one, have NEVER believed the "center fuel tank exploding" scenario"

Me either. It is BS. Technically impossible. A jet burns essentially diesel fuel and the vapors are not volatile without a LOT of heat and if the tanks in a jet ever got that hot planes would be blowing up every day. Try it! Use the burner from your turkey fryer and an old pot. Start with the diesel cold and toss in a match. Match will go out or float on the top and act like a wick. The pot of diesel will not ignite. Next, heat it up slowly tossing in matches every few minutes. No fire until the diesel is literally smoking from the heat. Measure temperature once you are able to set the liquid OR its vapors alight and you too will know that the exploding fuel tank is 100% BS.

The explosive characteristics described for the jet fuel are borrowed from GASOLINE and do not exist for jet fuel except under the right conditions. And those conditions will never be attained in an aircraft fuel tank unless the rest of the plane is already on fire.

89 posted on 07/16/2004 8:30:21 AM PDT by EUPHORIC (Right? Left? Read Ecclesiastes 10:2 for a definition. The Bible knows all about it!)
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To: muawiyah
If Rudolph's MO was hatred of cops, why bomb 2 abortion clinics and a lesbian nightclub?

If that was the case, why not bomb police precincts?

At the time of the olympic park bombing, Rudolph's face had been plastered on tv all over the country. Would he be stupid enough to show his face in Atlanta during the olympics, when we had more cops per square mile than anywhere in the world?

Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

90 posted on 07/16/2004 8:30:24 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: Non-Sequitur
So how did the Clinton administration cover up for terrorists?

By directing the FBI to discredit and ignore the reports of over 800 eyewitnesses, and by directing the NTSB to fabricate the story of a magic spontaneously exploding center fuel tank.

If such an explosion were possible, why has it only happened once in the history of aviation?

91 posted on 07/16/2004 8:36:18 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Drug prohibition laws help fund terrorism.)
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To: JohnHuang2

My question has always been, WHY did they cover this up? Or OKC? I guess I'm just not a politically-savvy observer. What did the government stand to lose by revealing the truth about TWA800, etc? (I joined FR too late to get in on the meatiest discussions...)


92 posted on 07/16/2004 8:37:48 AM PDT by redhead (Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?)
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To: pctech
"My question about all this is stuff is this: Can a stinger missile reach 13,500 feet? or even 18,000 feet?"

Later versions of the stinger can exceed 26000 feet. Spokesholes for FBI and FAA lied when they said a stinger could not have done it since they only reached 8000 feet. Either that or they are VERY stupid - 800 meters = 26000 feet...

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/stinger.htm

93 posted on 07/16/2004 8:40:06 AM PDT by EUPHORIC (Right? Left? Read Ecclesiastes 10:2 for a definition. The Bible knows all about it!)
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To: Homer1

In fact, it is my understanding that nobody has publicly claimed credit for 9/11.


94 posted on 07/16/2004 8:40:36 AM PDT by Homer1
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To: jwpjr
"This was not an accidental shoot down. The crew of the navy ship that fired on the aircraft intended to bring it down and was very accurate and efficient in the accomplishment of that mission. The airliner refused to identify itself, would not activate it IFF system, flew directly at the navy ship at a higher than normal rate of speed and did so at at time when several surface vessels were harassing the ship. The crew of the ship had but a minute or so to make a decision as to the intentions of the approaching aircraft."

To this day, I am convinced that that airline had a CARGO of corpses. We already know what small value the terrorists put on human lives. Why not herd a bunch of people onto a plane, gas them all, take off, and deliberately fly in a provocative manner directy at a U.S. warship?

95 posted on 07/16/2004 8:43:47 AM PDT by redhead (Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
By directing the FBI to discredit and ignore the reports of over 800 eyewitnesses, and by directing the NTSB to fabricate the story of a magic spontaneously exploding center fuel tank.

And the fact that no terrorists have claimed responsibility for downing the plane? Did the administration arrange that, too?

96 posted on 07/16/2004 8:45:45 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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To: Half Vast Conspiracy

I thought they tried to pin this on Eric Rudolph, but I may be mistaken.


97 posted on 07/16/2004 8:52:40 AM PDT by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways)
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To: Non-Sequitur
And the fact that no terrorists have claimed responsibility for downing the plane? Did the administration arrange that, too?

The kneepad press would have done anything Xlinton asked.

98 posted on 07/16/2004 8:55:55 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Drug prohibition laws help fund terrorism.)
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To: EUPHORIC

What are you talking about? Your link lists the operational ceiling as 12,500 ft.


99 posted on 07/16/2004 8:56:23 AM PDT by pgyanke (Christianity, if false, is unimportant and, if true, of infinite importance. - C.S. Lewis)
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To: Vigilantcitizen
"Who has claimed responsibility for 9-11?"

Some dude named Osama something or rather who who looks like a dark skinned John Kerry with a beard and a weeks supply of diapers wrapped around his head.

100 posted on 07/16/2004 9:11:48 AM PDT by EUPHORIC (Right? Left? Read Ecclesiastes 10:2 for a definition. The Bible knows all about it!)
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