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Analyzing The 2nd Amendment
OUTDOORSBEST ^ | July 16, 2004 | Don B. Kates

Posted on 07/16/2004 8:59:00 AM PDT by neverdem

The first in a series of articles on the importance of the upcoming general election

Does the Second Amendment guarantee a right to states rather than an individual right to choose to own firearms? One clue to the answer is looking at who supports each position. The few law-review articles supporting the states'-right view all come from advocates, most of them employed by or associated with anti-gun groups.

The Verdict of Scholarship Yet, intellectual honesty compels many far more important scholars to accept the standard model of the Amendment as an individual's right despite personal anti-gun feelings. Famed constitutional lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who defended O.J. Simpson and Claus von Bulow, is a former ACLU national board member who admits he "hates" guns and wants the Second Amendment repealed. Yet, says Dershowitz: "Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."

Another former ACLU national board member, Duke Law School's William Van Alstyne, who is among the premier constitutional scholars of modern times, contemptuously dismisses the states'-right view. "If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the 18th century for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis." He emphasizes that to take civil liberties seriously requires respecting the Second Amendment no less than freedom of speech and religion and the other rights in the First Amendment. [Van Alstyne, "The Second Amendment and the Personal Right to Arms," 43 Duke Law Journal 1236 (1994).]

Another major figure in modern constitutional law is Harvard law professor Lawrence Tribe who is anti-gun and a liberal. Earlier versions of his famous text endorsed the states'-right view, but, having examined the historical evidence for himself, he now reluctantly admits the Amendment guarantees "a right (admittedly of uncertain scope) on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes." [Tribe, American Constitutional Law, Vol. 1, pp. 901-902 (2000)].

RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE Anti-gun writers cite my article (83 Michigan Law Review, pp. 204-273) as the definitive standard-model treatment. Yet, remarkably, these anti-gun writers give only that one initial mention. If they have answers to the 50 pages of evidence I offer for the standard model, they neglect to offer them. So I shall limit myself to just two examples of my unrefuted evidence.

Written by James Madison, the Bill of Rights was enacted as a single document. Whenever it says "right of the people," it does so to describe individual rights. To ignore this point you must think that in the First Amendment Madison used "right of the people" to describe an individual right. But then, 16 words later, he used it in the Second Amendment meaning a state's right. But then, 46 words later, the Fourth Amendment says "right of the people" meaning an individual right again. And then "right of the people" was used in the Ninth Amendment to mean--guess what--a right of the people.

In fact, throughout the Bill of Rights and the Constitution the word "right" is always used to refer to something individuals have and never used to refer to powers possessed by government. Such powers are always called "power" or "authority."

THE PURPOSE OF THE MILITIA Anti-gun advocates imply from the Amendment's reference to a "well-regulated militia" that government can regulate gun ownership. But that is totally outside the 18th century usage of "well regulated," which means "well trained" and "operating properly." Likewise, anti-gun advocates think the mention of militia show the right to arms applies only to states arming their militias. But in the 18th century "militia" did not mean "army" or "soldiers." The militia was a system of laws under which every man and every household was to have guns (unorganized militia), while most men of military age were required to appear with their guns when called out for drill or war (organized militia). The arms of the militia were the personally owned arms of its members.

It is somewhat misleading, however, to see the Second Amendment as a right to have arms for collective defense against tyranny or foreign enemies. The Amendment's central theme was what our Founding Fathers saw as the basic human right to possess arms for individual self-defense. But the Founders did not misconstrue that, as we so often do, as just a right to defense against nonpolitical criminals. The Founders believed individuals needed to be armed for political self-defense (e.g., Jews resisting the Gestapo) and that, in the ultimate extreme, people must join together to overthrow tyranny. (Note that the literal meaning of the term "revolution" was an uprising seeking to bring government back to its original free form, not to produce some new form.) [Kates, "The Second Amendment and the Ideology of Self-Protection," 9 Constitutional Commentary 87 (1992).]

WHAT LAWS DOES THE AMENDMENT PRECLUDE? The NRA's experts like Prof. Steve Halbrook believe the Amendment does more than I feel it does. And another expert, Prof. Nelson Lund, thinks neither Halbrook nor I interpret the Amendment broadly enough. We all agree, however, that the Amendment guarantees every responsible law-abiding adult freedom of choice regarding guns.

So assault-weapon bans are unconstitutional. "Assault weapons" are just semiautomatic rifles differing only in that they are down-powered from those of the WWII era. Banning them infringes on the freedom of law-abiding, responsible adults to choose which firearms they wish to have. Magazine limitations are invalid for the same reason.

So-called Saturday Night Special bans are valid only insofar as a particular model of firearm is provably unreliable or dangerous to use in the manner it is reasonably foreseeable to be used. The reasons for most SNS bans--that the guns are small, light and/or inexpensive--are invalid under the Second Amendment. Nor can states push gun prices to astronomical levels by requiring that guns incorporate dubious or unnecessary safety features.

LIMITS ON THE AMENDMENT The Amendment covers only small arms. Neither RPGs, cannons, grenades nor the other super-destructive devices of modern war are covered.

Guns may be banned to juveniles, convicted felons, aliens and the insane, all of whom have been excluded from the right to arms in free societies dating back to ancient Greece. (Juveniles have the right to use firearms under parental supervision.)

Though Professors Lund and Halbrook disagree, I think gun registration and license requirements to own are valid. What is invalid is licensing as traditionally practiced in New York. For licensing to be valid, licenses must be granted to all law-abiding, responsible applicants and within some very short period like 72 hours. If New York cannot manage to accomplish this then it cannot constitutionally require a license to own a firearm.

The right to bear arms includes a right to carry them but not concealed. On the other hand, if a license is required for concealed carry, equal standards must be applied. If retired cops routinely get licenses, so must everyone else who may be in danger from their connection with the justice system. And if the wealthy and influential routinely get licenses, so must the entire responsible, law-abiding adult populace.

VINDICATING THE RIGHT TODAY The Supreme Court has briefly referred to the Amendment in almost 40 different opinions, all showing that it guarantees an individual right to arms. But the court has never provided a full and lengthy exposition of the Amendment. In fact, several lengthy and considered opinions would be required to illuminate the Amendment's various aspects.

To any judge willing to follow the law, it must be clear that the Amendment guarantees the freedom of all responsible, law-abiding adults to choose to possess firearms for personal and family defense. We must depend on the president to appoint such judges and the Senate to confirm them.

Several vacancies on the U.S. Supreme court are likely during the next presidential term. Many appointments are also expected on lower federal and appellate courts. The president and members of the senate who are elected in November will play a major role in the rights of gun owners for many years.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; guncontrol; gunprohibition; secondamendment
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1 posted on 07/16/2004 8:59:00 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: *bang_list

BANG


2 posted on 07/16/2004 9:00:46 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
Does the Second Amendment guarantee a right to states rather than an individual right to choose to own firearms?

The Bill of Rights.....are they rights of the state? Are they all OF, FOR & BY the people...everyone of them EXCEPT the 2nd?

This tired argument doesn't hold water. Besides, THE PEOPLE were/are THE MILITIA.

3 posted on 07/16/2004 9:03:47 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Puppage

...further. Does the First Amendment give the STATE the right to free speech, or the People,hmm?


4 posted on 07/16/2004 9:04:46 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: neverdem
LIMITS ON THE AMENDMENT The Amendment covers only small arms. Neither RPGs, cannons, grenades nor the other super-destructive devices of modern war are covered.

I'm not sure where the Constitution specifies "small arms". Was private ownership of cannons permitted by the founders?

6 posted on 07/16/2004 9:11:15 AM PDT by rhombus
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To: neverdem
The constitution of the United States is to receive a reasonable interpretation of its language, and its powers, keeping in view the objects and purposes, for which those powers were conferred. By a reasonable interpretation, we mean, that in case the words are susceptible of two different senses, the one strict, the other more enlarged, that should be adopted, which is most consonant with the apparent objects and intent of the Constitution.
Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833

To all general purposes we have uniformly been one people each individual citizen everywhere enjoying the same national rights, privileges, and protection. As a nation we have made peace and war; as a nation we have vanquished our common enemies; as a nation we have formed alliances, and made treaties, and entered into various compacts and conventions with foreign states.
John Jay, Federalist No. 2, 1787

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of."
-Albert Gallatin to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G. Papers

On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823

Civilian merchant ships had cannons. Gatling and full auto guns weren't "restricted" until the NFA of '34. I'd say the 2nd Amendment covers quite a bit more than just rifles, pistols, and edged weapons.

7 posted on 07/16/2004 9:11:56 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: neverdem
Something that is ignored, time and time again, is that the Constitution and the subsequent Bill of Rights, does not GRANT rights, it prevents the Federal Government from infringing upon EXISTING rights.
8 posted on 07/16/2004 9:13:29 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: neverdem

ping later


9 posted on 07/16/2004 9:14:06 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: rhombus
Was private ownership of cannons permitted by the founders?

Yes. The letter of Marque and Reprisal against the Barbary Pirates was to authorize the Federal Government to PAY privateers, share in the spoils, and to allow them to "hunt" pirates legally. Those letters quite clearly did not, as some here have suggested, make it legal for them to arm their ships in the first place. In fact, the reason the FedGov hired so many privateers was BECAUSE they were already armed.

10 posted on 07/16/2004 9:15:05 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: rhombus
The term arms is very specific in the language of the days that the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written, they are a little more ambiguous today, but still mean the same to those in the know. Once a firearm reaches a certain calibre, it no longer falls into the arms definition, but then becomes ordnance. A cannon falls into this latter definition. The same is true for items like RPGs, bombs, nuclear weapons, etc.
11 posted on 07/16/2004 9:17:55 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: rjsimmons
the Constitution and the subsequent Bill of Rights, does not GRANT rights, it prevents the Federal Government from infringing upon EXISTING rights.

I agree!

Taking it to the Supreme Court!
http://www.jerseygop.com/freeman_02.htm

In 2001, in the case of U.S. v. Emerson, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals (Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi) ruled that firearms ownership is an individual right, subject to certain reasonable restrictions. This ruling was handed down a few months after Attorney General, John Ashcroft, issued a public statement announcing that the Second Amendment clearly protects the right of individual(s) to keep and bear arms. A writ of certiorari for a Supreme Court hearing was denied for this case.

In 2002, in the case of Silveira v. Lockyer, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Arizona, Alaska, and Hawaii) rendered a ruling that the Second Amendment does NOT apply to individuals.

We now have a situation where the law of the land in the Fifth Circuit is diametrically opposed to the law in the Ninth Circuit. Considering that this is a federal Bill of Rights issue, it is in the best interest of our nation for the Supreme Court to render a final ruling that applies to all.

Snip

12 posted on 07/16/2004 9:21:37 AM PDT by DumpsterDiver
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To: rjsimmons
Once a firearm reaches a certain calibre, it no longer falls into the arms definition, but then becomes ordnance.

So the Green Mountain boys captured ordnance from Fort Ti... not arms?

13 posted on 07/16/2004 9:21:51 AM PDT by rhombus
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To: rhombus
I would have to say, yes to Ordnance and arms. Canon are ordnance, muskets are arms...
14 posted on 07/16/2004 9:23:22 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If a Democrat falls from office and nobody is around will they make a sound?)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
Canon are ordnance, muskets are arms...

Then you would agree that the 2nd Amendment does not address cannons at all? Others on this thread have disagreed.

15 posted on 07/16/2004 9:25:04 AM PDT by rhombus
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To: neverdem

Bump for future reference.


16 posted on 07/16/2004 9:29:19 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum (A poverty-stricken middle class must be a disarmed middle class)
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To: rhombus
QUOTE
So the Green Mountain boys captured ordnance from Fort Ti... not arms?


Yup. Ordnance. Not Arms.

17 posted on 07/16/2004 9:29:24 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: Puppage

Keep reading, Pup.


18 posted on 07/16/2004 9:30:41 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
So the "guns" on Privateer ships were more properly "ordnance"? And yet they were still legal to buy and own.

The Second is broader in scope than that...

19 posted on 07/16/2004 9:32:45 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: the OlLine Rebel

Oh,I have. I was just scream'n about that first line. I hear it ALL the time.


20 posted on 07/16/2004 9:35:06 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Zavien Doombringer

Since the Constitution contemplates the private ownership of warships (Letters of Marque in Article 1 Section 8) I don't think it reasonable to limit arms in this manner. We should look at the practice of the early Republic, where there were militia artillery units. Functionally we should ask ourselves, which weapons are needed to overthrow our government in the event that it becomes a danger to our liberties? Those weapons are protected by the 2nd Amendment. In this day and age that means jets and tanks.


21 posted on 07/16/2004 9:35:55 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: Dead Corpse

Most "guns" on privateer craft were the 1" - 3" swivel guns, not really big.


22 posted on 07/16/2004 9:36:32 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If a Democrat falls from office and nobody is around will they make a sound?)
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To: rjsimmons

Then what about the extremely good point about privateers?


23 posted on 07/16/2004 9:37:04 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: DumpsterDiver

Excellent snip. This shows some of the paradoxes that confront the SCOTUS on a near-daily basis. With the Ninth Circus Court of Appeals ignoring over 200 years of precedence, they once again show just how out of touch they can be.


24 posted on 07/16/2004 9:37:24 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: neverdem

And so y'all agree to appoint another tyrant, another beyond Sarah Brady, to define a cannon's caliber. Is .50 inch an 'arm' or a cannon?

Is a .223 inch bursting charge fired from an 'arm' or a cannon? Come come, lets be specific about the hairs we split.

Which part of 'infringed' do you not understand? Or are y'all Narional Reasonable-regulation Ass. members or worse?


25 posted on 07/16/2004 9:39:00 AM PDT by dhuffman@awod.com (The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.)
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To: RKV
where there were militia artillery units

Funny you should mention Militia...look at my profile.

I do Rev-war re-enacting. That's a .69 Charleville Corrige' AN IX 1777 I am holding...it does pack a punch :)

26 posted on 07/16/2004 9:39:08 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If a Democrat falls from office and nobody is around will they make a sound?)
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To: AnnaZ; HangFire

FYI-Z


27 posted on 07/16/2004 9:39:17 AM PDT by Syncro
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To: Zavien Doombringer

Hah? You must be kidding! Swivel guns were few. How many ships have you ever seen w/more than 4 swivels, mounted either fore or aft? How could these guys accomplish anything w/o full-size naval/siege cannon bristling along the bow, under deck?


28 posted on 07/16/2004 9:40:14 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel

The issue regarding privateers had nothing to do with the People's right to keep and bear arms. The Congress granted letters of marque to ships of the line that could be used in times of National crises. We have the classic Apple vs. Orange line up with this.


29 posted on 07/16/2004 9:40:16 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: Zavien Doombringer

Sorry - not true. The range of ships used by privateers was quite large. They did not appear to include ships of the line, but did include vessels up to the size of navy sloops and cutters. Over 1700 letters o marque were issued in the revolutionary war. http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/privateers.html


30 posted on 07/16/2004 9:40:22 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: rjsimmons
Ordnance
Arms
Gun

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American? The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People.
-- Tench Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb 20, 1788

Do I need to post Barbary Pirate info as well? Or will you accede the point that the Second covers much more than just muskets and calvary sabers?

31 posted on 07/16/2004 9:40:40 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: rjsimmons

Pay special attention to post #29


32 posted on 07/16/2004 9:42:32 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: rjsimmons

You don't understand the use of letters of marque at all. They were used by many countries, not just ours. Armed merchant men were common at the time. It absolutely has bearing since armed merchant ships existed prior to the issuance of a letter of marque. A letter of marque was not a permit to arm a ship. It was a hunting license.


33 posted on 07/16/2004 9:43:12 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: dhuffman@awod.com

.50 cal falls under the definition of arms. It isn't until you break into the 1.0 cal that the definition becomes grey. We folk in the military classify all arms as ordnance, but only for supply purposes. The term is accepted as artillery or delivered weaponry.


34 posted on 07/16/2004 9:44:04 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: neverdem

If the founders wanted to the government to regulate firearms, they would have said so. It's that easy.


35 posted on 07/16/2004 9:44:28 AM PDT by BigAzzHam ("Ward, I think there's something wrong with the Beaver." - June Cleaver)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
There weren't...

and they couldn't. Though I am not into Naval warfare, I do know some of the militia gunboats consisted of such.

36 posted on 07/16/2004 9:44:44 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If a Democrat falls from office and nobody is around will they make a sound?)
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To: rjsimmons

See post 10?

"In fact, the reason the FedGov hired so many privateers was BECAUSE they were ***already*** armed."

So why didn't they disarm (or perhaps, disordnance?) these men prior to any extracurricular service if only small arms are included in the 2ndA?


37 posted on 07/16/2004 9:45:50 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: Zavien Doombringer

Largest weapon I ever shot was a .458 Win Mag and I have NO desire to try that .69 caliber cannon LOL!


38 posted on 07/16/2004 9:46:05 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: RKV

You would love it, I load a 65grain charge and it has litle kick, but big bang. A 12 gauge has more kick.


39 posted on 07/16/2004 9:47:12 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If a Democrat falls from office and nobody is around will they make a sound?)
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To: neverdem

All gun laws are unconstitutional. If I want to park an fully loaded A-10 in my yard as long as I can afford it it is non of the Govt. business.


40 posted on 07/16/2004 9:47:57 AM PDT by 50 Cal (Next time you think nobody cares if you exist just don't pay the IRS!)
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To: Dead Corpse
I never said that the 2A didn't cover more than muskets and sabres. Just that ordnance is not what they were discussing. The debate over that is chronicled and I would have to do some digging in my research papers, but I can get it. The quote you gave is from Adams and was in his support of the Constitution in trying to limit the Federal power over the people. The context is arms, not ordnance. An excellent web site to visit regarding this is Guncite.org
41 posted on 07/16/2004 9:49:13 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: rhombus
LIMITS ON THE AMENDMENT The Amendment covers only small arms. Neither RPGs, cannons, grenades nor the other super-destructive devices of modern war are covered.

I'm not sure where the Constitution specifies "small arms". Was private ownership of cannons permitted by the founders?

It doesn't make such distinctions. It says "Arms." And the focus is not on "what individuals may own", but rather, what this newly formed general government "cannot do." It is not a "granting of rights", but a "restriction of authority on the United States Government" from infringing the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Of course, the federlists (?) thought a BOR was absurd, since the Constitution did not grant any powers to the USG to infringe the right(s) of the people (to keep and bear arms). (see Article I, Section 8). Freedom haters have found a way to exploit this as the federalists had feared. FH'ers intentionally misconstrue the meaning (such as "right of the people" vs. power/authority of the state).

I had an incredible discussion recently on the phrase "under the United States" and the scope of its meaning. It does not mean "under the several States". Usage within the Constitution itself demonstrates its proper meaning, as does usage of "right of the people" vs. power of the State (see Amendment 10). No hand waving appeals to tradition or founding principles are need, when the text itself is adequate.

42 posted on 07/16/2004 9:49:24 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: RKV

Worst one for me was the 10 gauge magnum. Boy that one had a punch!


43 posted on 07/16/2004 9:49:35 AM PDT by 50 Cal (Next time you think nobody cares if you exist just don't pay the IRS!)
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To: Zavien Doombringer

W/all due respect to a heavy student of the period, how can that be? Privateers wouldn't be used much if they didn't get good-sized cannon. Swivel guns would be useless against the Barbary pirates!

What happened - no guns before the letters of Marque, then stocked up thanks to gov permission, do their duty, then get disarmed and gov takes over the "ordnance"?

I'm talking ocean-going ships here, not local coastal militia.

Besides, you said "most" - not all - that means some had big cannon. So it seems moot to imply the 2ndA applied only to small arms.

Or did they just not care at the time if you bought your own real guns?


44 posted on 07/16/2004 9:50:43 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: 50 Cal

I sighted in the .458 off-hand rather than get a broken cheekbone from the recoil. D@mn thing was made to kill Cape Buffalo.


45 posted on 07/16/2004 9:52:22 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel

They weren't under any obligation to do so. Privateers were not citizens. The letters granted were in support of the declaration of war. You hire folks when you don't have enough. In this case, the Congress hired ships and crews, not citizens. The Bill of Rights is a completely different issue, it limited the power of the Federal government over its citizenry. Two separate and distinct issues.


46 posted on 07/16/2004 9:53:59 AM PDT by rjsimmons
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To: the OlLine Rebel

Check this out for details on privateers. http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/privateers.html


47 posted on 07/16/2004 9:54:31 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: rjsimmons
Guncite.org is an excellent resource for current RKBA info. I prefer Keepandbeararms.com myself.

However, as to what the Founders "meant", it is better to find complete historical resources for exactly what they said. And what they meant.

Arms had a broader definition. Ordnance. Rifle. Gun. Mortar. Cannon. Knives. Swords. Even Grenades.

48 posted on 07/16/2004 9:55:01 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: rjsimmons

Not true. Many privateers were owned by citizens and manned by citizens. http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/privateers.html


49 posted on 07/16/2004 9:55:39 AM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules.)
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To: neverdem
...to take civil liberties seriously requires respecting the Second Amendment no less than freedom of speech and religion and the other rights in the First Amendment

Let's see campaign finance restrictions designed to stifle Republicans right to free speech, gun control laws, court decisions against public display of 10 Commandments and Christmas trees, laws against "marriage"......hmmmmm.....I gues the democrats don't take civil liberties seriously, even though their holly grail is a woman's rigth to "privacy" and abortion.

50 posted on 07/16/2004 9:57:02 AM PDT by Robert357
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