Daring to discipline (On excommunication of pro-choice Catholic pols)

http://www.nola.com ^ | Sunday, July 18, 2004 | Bruce Nolan

[cpforlife.org]

The original paper article headline read:
CAST OUT BY THE CHURCH

Daring to discipline

Archbishop Joseph Francis Rummel's decision to excommunicate three segregationists in 1962 is being re-examined during the debate about pro-choice Catholic politicians

Sunday, July 18, 2004

By Bruce Nolan

Staff writer

The blow fell just before Easter 1962, in a city attuned to the solemn rhythms of traditional Catholicism. On Monday of Holy Week, Joseph Francis Rummel, the aged and infirm archbishop of New Orleans, announced the excommunication of three Catholic public figures for loudly condemning his decision to integrate the archdiocese's Catholic schools.

Until they repented, Rummel declared, Leander Perez, Jackson Ricau and Una Gaillot were outside the church. New Orleans knew them well as furious public warriors against integration, familiar figures on the radio, at public rallies and in the press. They were also Catholics. But without a change of heart, Rummel said, they could not receive the Eucharist, the center of Catholic life, nor would they be buried in the embrace of their church.

Rummel's rare declaration made national news. Black Americans' struggle for civil rights was the dominant domestic story. Time and Newsweek reported the New Orleans confrontation as a showdown between a handful of racist demagogues and a principled churchman who had been pushed too far.

The moment passed, of course. Catholic schools were integrated largely without incident; the confrontation between the archbishop and the segregationists gave way to other stories: the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Lyndon Johnson's Great Society and Vietnam. Rummel died two years after issuing his edict. Perez died five years after that. Ricau and Gaillot slipped into relative obscurity.

But 42 years later, Rummel's rare disciplining of the segregationists for public opposition to their church has fresh meaning in the politics of 2004.

Today, the battleground has shifted from segregation to abortion. And threats of excommunication then have morphed into threats to deny Communion to certain Catholic politicians.

The targets now are those who defy Catholic teaching in support of abortion, doctor-assisted suicide and the use of embryos in stem-cell research. All are at the top of the list because Catholic tradition holds those practices to be wrong in every context -- clearer to bishops than the related "life issues" of war and capital punishment, which in rare circumstances may be justified.

The tension is nowhere sharper than around presumed Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, a Catholic who supports a woman's right to abortion.

[cpforlife.org]

This article followed

1962 case may not apply, scholars say

Sunday, July 18, 2004

By Bruce Nolan

Staff writer

For more than a year, some conservative Catholics have invoked the memory of former New Orleans Archbishop Joseph Francis Rummel in urging their bishops to discipline Catholic politicians who support abortion rights -- much as Rummel excommunicated a group of vocal segregationists in 1962.

But, as some scholars point out, the comparison is not apt.

Rummel did not excommunicate three Catholic public figures merely because they espoused racist views contrary to church teaching, several church officials said.

Instead, he sanctioned only those few who also challenged his authority to desegregate Catholic schools -- and to do so as a matter of Christian witness.

"The only thing comparable would be if some Catholics started a movement to insist that Catholic hospitals do abortions. That would be closer to the Rummel business," said the Rev. Tom Reese, a Jesuit writer and editor of the Catholic magazine America.

But the 1962 confrontation between Catholic politicians and Catholic bishops hovers over the politics of 2004, when Catholic politicians committed to protecting abortion as a settled constitutional right are urged by bishops to reverse course because they believe abortion is profoundly wrong.

Polls indicate that's a new interplay between church and state that unsettles a huge majority of Catholics. It is unclear whether that is because it offends their understanding of the role of the church in politics, or their relationship to the sacrament of Communion, or both.

Poll sides with Kerry

A Time magazine poll last month reported that 73 percent of 500 Catholics polled thought that presumed Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry should not be denied Communion because he supports abortion rights.

Communion and abortion became the focus of debate during the spring, when a handful of bishops -- still fewer than a dozen out of 195 Catholic dioceses -- announced they would unilaterally withhold Communion from Catholic politicians who support abortion rights.

Less authoritarian

Since then, it has become clear that the vast majority of bishops, including New Orleans Archbishop Alfred Hughes and the six other Louisiana bishops, will take a less authoritarian course. They merely urge abortion-rights politicians to refrain voluntarily from Communion.

The politics of Communion has stirred widespread debate and a good deal of criticism.

Forward, a national Jewish weekly newspaper, recently called some bishops' decision to deny Communion "an affront" to democracy.

"It's bullying, and people don't like it," said Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, an unofficial group that supports abortion rights.

But most pointedly, many critics saw the bishops' decision as political, not theological -- aimed at demonizing Democratic candidates to the benefit of Republican candidates.

"There are lots of Catholics who disagree with those positions, but they don't happen to be politicians. I disagree, and no one has threatened to deny me Communion," Kissling said.

In fact, Reese, a priest and journalist, is among those who wish that bishops would be more even-handed and enlarge their criticism to include abortion-rights Republicans such as former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, New York Gov. George Pataki and California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Some of the bishops' critics point out that Deal Hudson, the publisher of Crisis, a conservative Catholic magazine that supports sanctioning Catholic politicians who defend abortion rights, is close to President Bush's re-election effort.

"In a highly politically charged environment, we sometimes lose sight of whether we're starting with politics and moving to religion, or starting with religion and moving to politics," said the Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, the Monroe Baptist pastor who leads the Interfaith Alliance, a liberal coalition of churches formed as a counterweight to the Christian Coalition.

Acting on faith

The Catholic Church responds that it's merely calling on its members to act out their faith. It rejects the idea that politicians can compartmentalize their faith on Sunday, but steer their decisions by individual conscience on the legislative floor on Monday.

Moreover, its hierarchy takes a different view of conscience than that usually employed by the other side -- and in this has the support of many sympathetic Protestant evangelicals, despite a long history of antipathy between the two groups on other questions.

Writing in support of Catholic bishops' decision to withhold Communion, Christianity Today, an evangelical magazine, recently editorialized that Catholics and Protestants alike are traditionally charged to inform their consciences by the light of Christian teaching.

"Luther's 'My conscience is captive to the Word of God' is foundational for us," wrote the Protestant editors.

"Kerry's notions of conscience stress individual liberty of thought, while Catholic and Protestant understandings anchor the Christian conscience to God's word and God's people," the editorial said.

But people of faith split on the meaning of abortion. And some who applaud Rummel's prophetic defense of racial equality see a clear moral difference between segregation and abortion.

"Abortion and segregation both involve a basic respect for life and sacredness of life," Gaddy said. "But I don't equate them, because in the case of abortion I can't make a blanket statement an abortion should never occur. . . . But I cannot think of any situation in which a person should have her dignity and worth stripped because of the color of her skin."

But to Catholics and evangelicals, who hold that human life begins at conception, abortion is intimately linked to the segregation that Rummel fought: They center on the same conviction -- that human life always demands respect, despite outward appearances.

In that sense, Reese said, Catholic bishops dealing with the Communion issue desperately want to avoid giving the rest of the country the impression that opposition to abortion is a faith matter peculiar to Catholics.

"The more they talk about abortion as a matter of Catholic faith, that's a disaster for the pro-life movement," Reese said. "Abortion has to be described as a human rights issue, not as a theological or religious issue."

Differences

But the debate continues precisely because it's not seen that way, even among Christians.

"I've always felt abortion debate is fundamentally a religious question, because it's a question of the significance of human life at various stages of development," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the leader of Americans United for Separation of Church and State and a minister in the United Church of Christ, a liberal Protestant denomination.

Catholic bishops see such views as a challenge to be met with patient argument both in and outside their own church, and most seem to be moving away from the temptation to discipline Catholics in public life who hold contrary views, said the Rev. William Maestri, spokesman for the Archdiocese of New Orleans.

"We are confronting a culture of death, and that's not going to be overturned by ecclesiastical decree," he said. "It's not going to be overcome by excommunications only. It's going to require a long, long process of planting the seeds of life in the midst of that culture.

"Rummel knew that these fundamental Catholic principles went into the public square and touched many other issues. But he never wavered from Catholic teaching.

"It's that kind of resolve we need today from our leaders."

. . . . . . .

Bruce Nolan can be reached at bnolan@timespicayune.com or (504) 826-3344.

[cpforlife.org]

Kerry says he believes that life starts at conception
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165523/posts

DRUDGE REPORT QUOTES KERRY: "...LIFE DOES BEGIN AT CONCEPTION..."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165427/posts

Kerry 1972: Abortion is Wrong; Kerry 2004: Abortion is a Choice (Flip-Flop Alert)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123135/posts

Kerry Will Hold Pro-Abortion Rally Prior to Sunday's Abortion March
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123175/posts

Kerry hypocrite on abortion
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1077253/posts

ABORTION: KERRY FLIPS AGAIN
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1139625/posts

Senator Kerry, How Can You Support This Barbarism? (Partial Birth Abortion - WARNING GRAPHIC)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1111620/posts

Kerry Claims Partial-Birth Abortion Doesn't Exist
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1015958/posts

[cpforlife.org]

PING

Please let me know if you want on or off my Pro-Life Ping List.

[madprof98]

"The only thing comparable would be if some Catholics started a movement to insist that Catholic hospitals do abortions. That would be closer to the Rummel business," said the Rev. Tom Reese, a Jesuit writer and editor of the Catholic magazine America.

They don't have to go far to find an apologist for evil in today's American Catholic Church.

[Vince Ferrer]

The only thing comparable would be if some Catholics started a movement to insist that Catholic hospitals do abortions. That would be closer to the Rummel business," said the Rev. Tom Reese, a Jesuit writer and editor of the Catholic magazine America.

This is already happening, too, especially if we include birth control in the comparison.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Centuries ago such folks would be at danger of burning at the stake.

Today the Roman leadership calmly sits back and says "well hey, they've excommunicated themselves, we don't have to say a thing more."

From extreme to extreme. I'm curious when the RCC will ever find the middle.

[BillyBoy]

>> In fact, Reese, a priest and journalist, is among those who wish that bishops would be more even-handed and enlarge their criticism to include abortion-rights Republicans such as former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, New York Gov. George Pataki and California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. <<

I tend to agree. Until they go after all pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians equally, the RATs can just scream "partisan!" at any attempt to justifiably expose a pro-abortion Catholic as defying the church's teachings. This movement will not be taken seriously until pro-abort RINOs are held to the same standards.

Why is Lisa Murkowski (RINO-AK) not on the list of Catholic Senators who should be denied communion? Last time I checked, she's still pro-abortion and still calls herself "Catholic" Not only that, she just voted against legislation to ban same-sex "marriage". And doesn't she support stem-cell research on embryos? That's at least three "nonnegotiable" positions she's taken, when only ONE is needed as grounds to deny communion.

Could it be she faces a tough general election fight with a RAT, therefore no Catholic conservatives want to remind GOP voters of her liberal positions? She ALSO faces a primary election, which means Alaskans COULD have a pro-life Senator if someone would spend a lot of time and energy to point out why RINO Lisa -- the APPOINTED Senator -- should NOT be nominated by the GOP in her own right. That would be the honest thing to do.

In some of these states, the "Catholic" politicans are practically pro-abort by default. It's an empadempic. Look at California "Catholics" -- Gray Doofus, pro-abort "Catholic", Cruz Bustamente, pro-abort "Catholic", Arnold Shiver, pro-abort "Catholic". Are we seeing a pattern here? SOMEONE needs to speak out...

[Robert Drobot]

The dark albatross of V2's intended consequences rises once again to display its ugly face.

Pre-V2, it was God Almighty (The Church) who defined sin. Post-V2 it's the sinner who decides what is, and what is not, sin.

Venial sin, mortal sin, blasphemy, sacrilege and repeal of conversion as critical to salvation are all left to the conscience of the individual ( Unless of course you dare stand in opposition to the absence of practice and adherence to Sacred Teachings and Traditions of the One True Church.).

It's the Vatican who is encouraging worshipers of false gods and pagan beliefs to perform their satanic rituals on holy consecrated grounds in Fatima - all thanks to the guy from Poland in consert with his band of socialists who by their actions have proven their purpose is plowing under any remaining remnants of The One True Church.

Thanks to V2 the Sacrament of Confession is only necessary when one can not rationalize their way out of having committed sin.

It's not surprising that backsliding American Catholics ( whom I believe constitute more than a majority of the American Catholic Church ) 'feel' The Church should not deny baby killer proponents like Kerry the Body of Christ by way of a Consecrated Host. American catholics, like blind sheep ( blind to Biblical Study and Church law ), have been permitted to scatter in every direction - defining for themselves what it is to be 'Catholic'. The popularity of Brown's The Da Vinci Codes attest to the widespread acceptance of this heresy by American women who call themselves Catholic....thanks to the complete absence or milktoast response to Brown's attack on The Church from those who are bishops in name only.

The bishops of Rome and America embrace heretic priests in China allowing them to be celebrants of Holy Mass in the United States and study in Rome, while those who only want to continue the practices of Roman Catholicism - according to the dogma and traditions maintained for hundreds of years, before the insanity of V2 - are treated as outcasts; though they are not.

O Heavenly Father, send us holy priests. Saint Pius X, pray for us.

[jmaroneps37]

catholicsagainstkerry.com

Join us. For the first time in your life you'll live as a real Catholic and you'll be the Christian soldier you said you would be at your Confirmation.

[ex-snook]

Why pols only? Makes it sound 4-year political rather than convincing morality. Why not start with teachers and administrative staff in Catholic institutions to set a good example?

The politicans are dealing with the public mentality mess created in the schools and colleges within the Catholic community. If the Church was as successful as Baptists, the Catholic public would be as pro-life as Southern politicans. Then the tolerated McGreevys, Patackis, Ridges, and Schwartzneggers would not have been elected.

Those elections should have been a canary in the mines messages that the Catholic clergy did not get the job done. BTW have we heard any homilies about contraception or homosexual practices lately?

[Coleus]

This is already happening, too, especially if we include birth control in the comparison.>>

Yes, the IUD and Morning After Pill usually abort a conceived human.

Many Catholic Politicians, 3 in NJ,  voted "against" this bill which protected Doctors and Hospitals from losing federal funding if they "chose"  NOT to perform abortions. So much for being for choice.  Thankfully the bill passed. And NONE of the BISHOPS (Trenton, McCarrick in Newark and Rodimer in Paterson) refuted and repudiated the Catholic Congressman!

HR 4691, Some Voted Against allowing Doctors, Hospitals the right to choose to not commit abortions.

[Coleus]

So let me get this straight, if you disagree with a bishop, and challenge him publicaly,  regarding the placement of LIVING children in  a school setting you can get excommunicated. However,

 

if you disagree with a bishop regarding abortion where CHILDREN are TORTURED AND MURDERED, you do NOT get excommunicated.

 

I see?

..................

>>In fact, Reese, a priest and journalist, is among those who wish that bishops would be more even-handed and enlarge their criticism to include abortion-rights Republicans such as former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, New York Gov. George Pataki and California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.>>

Reese is right.  Pro-abort republicans are ok?  what gives?

>>Some of the bishops' critics point out that Deal Hudson, the publisher of Crisis, a conservative Catholic magazine that supports sanctioning Catholic politicians who defend abortion rights, is close to President Bush's re-election effort.>>

Deal Hudson is a private Citizen and not a priest or church official.

[eastsider]

For the first time in your life you'll live as a real Catholic ...

How presumptuous!

[Dad was my hero]

FYI, I clicked on three different links and got the following: "The requested document does not exist on this server." You might want to check the links.

[ex-snook]

Of interest, the Wanderer front page had this.

That on July 3 Italian journalist Sandro Magister reported "On January 6, 2001, John Paul II personally gave Communion to Francesco Rutelli, a practicing Catholic and a premier center-left candidate ..........Rutelli had been as a member of the Radical Party, one of the most active supporters of Italy's abortion law, which is among the most permissive in the world. Further noting Rutelli publicly maintains pro-choice positions.

Should the American clergy be holier than the Pope? or should they recognize that their chain is being pulled by politicians in an election year?

[Salvation]

Pro-life bump!

We need to keep this issue out there!

[fatima]

Coleus,Here's a bump.

[cpforlife.org]

Yes. I read that with great sadness and frustration.

IMO--JPII has given many terrible examples such as this.

[cpforlife.org]

Thanks for that heads up!

Try this to the original page:
Government, Law, and Political Responsibility
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/polresp.html

[Mr. Silverback]

ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

[Robert Drobot]

SCAM???

Are you the author of catholicsagainstkerry.com???

As far as I'm concerned it has all the earmarks of a scam, and I'm going to report it to appropriate authorities, internet and government for their review/action.

[Petronski]

...earmarks of a scam...

Like what?

[Petronski]

For the first time in your life you'll live as a real Catholic...

WTF?

[Coleus]

For the first time in your life you'll live as a real Catholic ...>>>

Probably hyperbole more than anything else.

[AnimalLover]

Are we seeing a pattern here? SOMEONE needs to speak out...

Maybe, just maybe, this is the reason the 10 Commandments are being pulled out. What better way to "confuse" people if, after awhile, they don't stay on top of the rules of their faith! Once one receives a drivers license, one must continue reviewing the rules of the road to remain legal.

This is exactly what is happening to our beloved America today, no history is taught, no responsibility for ones deeds, use our Flag as toilet paper or burn it and of course, the communist propaganda that is being pumped into everyones heads. The Church is no exception - making things "easier" for people to participate in the faith has caused this lack of reverence, respect and responsibility!

Please tell me if I'm wrong!

[AnimalLover]

Just wondering - how in God's name can anyone compare
abortion i.e. MURDER and segregation/integration?

[Robert Drobot]

SCAM???

...earmarks of a scam...Like what?

Catholics Against Kerry
PMB 113
3432 Denmark Avenue
Eagan, MN 55123

Is the address a mail drop, a business or a residence?

There is no telephone listing for Catholics Against Kerry in Eagan, MN.

Who owns the catholicsagainstkerry.com website, jmaroneps37 ???

Other than references to "John", "Kevin" and "Mike", there isn't a single name, church or organization associated with this site. Why not?

Cafepress ( the location where John, Kevin and Mike tell you to order a bumper strip or a t-shirt ) displays a "anyone but Bush" t-shirt on their home page.....curious to say the least!!!

Further, punching in cafepress.com will get you a "We're Sorry, You've Encountered an Error!" message. At the bottom of the message it signs off with:

Thank you for your patience. (with a link) - "CafePress.com Home Page".

Click that link and their home page will come up. Here's where the catch-22 comes into play. Click any of the tabs and you are returned to the "We're Sorry, You've Encountered an Error!" message.

Makes you feel like your doing some tail chasing.

Notice their home page boasts:

"This website has been visited by 27140 unique visitors since April 1, 2004", and then says, "We have had over 100,000 page views now." Must be some kind of government school new math. Presuming their hit counter rolls over at 99999, and 127,140 hits have been made to the site, what kind of money has already been sent to them in support of this website?

How much money has been allocated to "website expenses, [and]paying for advertisements related to the website"???

SCAM???

[Robert Drobot]

How much money has been allocated to cover "website expenses, [and]paying for advertisements related to the website"???

[firewalk]

Thanks for the ping

[eastsider]

Cafepress ( the location where John, Kevin and Mike tell you to order a bumper strip or a t-shirt ) displays a "anyone but Bush" t-shirt on their home page.....curious to say the least!!!

Cafepress certainly is an odd choice of distributors for catholicsagainstkerry. In addition to the t-shirt on their home page that you mentioned, check out these t-shirts ...

[Sally'sConcerns]

How did I get on this ping list? I'm not catholic and I don't venture into the religion threads.

Please remove me. Thanks

[TaxRelief]

I have no opinion on the CatholicsagainstKerry site, but I can put your mind to rest on a couple points:

Cafe Press (www.cafeshops.com) sells items that are both Republican and Democrat and everything else. They also act as a marketing liason for many organizations.
Details- http://www.moderninsider.com/article39.html

On the topic of the CatholicsagainstKerry homepage, the number of unique visitors (27140) indicates the number of unique IP addresses that have visited the site. This number, by definition, is always less than the number of page views, because IP addresses can visit a site more than once, and because they can view more than one page at during a site visit.

Is it a scam? Well buyer beware. They're not "tricking" anyone out of any money; they don't seem to be promising anything that needs to be delivered, except merchandise from an established merchandiser. So there is not really any evidence of a scam, per se.

Personally I don't donate to groups that aren't 501 C-3 or 501 C-4 corporations. (Political groups/pols excepted.)

Why don't you email some of the email addresses and ask for a phone number, then have a little conversation?

[TaxRelief]

You can verify Catholicsagainstkerry.com traffic ranking at http://www.alexa.com/data/details/?url=catholicsagainstKerry.com

Catholics Against Kerry
catholicsagainstkerry.com

"Site independent of the Catholic Church, criticizing the Democratic presidential candidate for supporting a requirement that Catholic hospitals and charities provide abortion coverage, and for supporting same sex marriage.
Traffic Rank for catholicsagainstkerry.com: 592,449"

Traffic rank:
Today 352,532
1 wk. Avg. 955,550
3 mos. Avg. 592,449

Obviously they need some money to manage that level of traffic.

Hope this helps-

[sgtbono2002]

I dont know how my screen name got on the Post I read it over and didnt see whwre I responded to it. If my name is ona Catholic Ping list I didnt ask for it to be there, as for me doing a Catholics against Kerry website I can assure its about all I can do to Post in this forum much less make up a web site.However Catholics or anybody else against Kerry is Jake with me as I am against Kerry for President wholeheartedly. I still have nothing to do with any website, I dont have one of my own. So be my giest report it to any authority you think cares, I still dont know how my screen name got on this Post, but count me out in the future please.

[Robert Drobot]

My humble apologies to you sgtbono2002, and to each of you who received my earlier 'ping'. I intended Post #22 and 28 to serve as a flag for my concerns about an internet source which is requesting donations. The question I presented, "Are you the author of catholicsagainstkerry.com??? was intended to be addressed to jmaroneps37, as s/he brought my attention to the website in Post # 10.

Once again, my apologies to each of you for failing to make clear to whom the question was directed.

The good thing about error is it's educational value. Know I will value this lesson as an example of unclear communication.

[sgtbono2002]

Dont sweat it , no problem

[www.catholicsagainstkerry.com]

Gentlemen,

Sorry for such a late ping to this thread. I don't stop by FR much, but I found this thread on google, and felt I should provide you some information in response to the concerns expressed.

TaxRelief,

Thanks for providing information in response to the concerns, I appreciate it.

Drobot,

I hope you’ve calmed down a bit. My email address, info@catholicsagainstkerry.com, has been on our website since day one. If you were sincere in your concerns you could have emailed me. Its not hard to do. Had you done so before making all kinds of insults and nasty accusations, and been at least reasonably cordial about things, I would have tried to answer.

You asked:

SCAM???

Answer: no. We are a federally registered PAC, and of course all our financial activities are appropriately monitored. Unfortunately we are poor, and there isn’t a whole lot to monitor.

[to jmaroneps] Are you the author of catholicsagainstkerry.com???

No. For the most part, with input from others, I am, and I am not jmaroneps. We have also posted articles from others, and have tried to attribute them to their authors where indicated.

As far as I'm concerned it has all the earmarks of a scam, and I'm going to report it to appropriate authorities, internet and government for their review/action.

You’ve got to be kidding. You are reporting us to the FBI or something? LOL. If it makes you happy, go for it. I'm not concerned about law enforcement, and should they have any legitimate concerns, they can look at my books.

Is the address a mail drop, a business or a residence?

Mail drop. I don’t want people just stopping by my home to bug my wife, especially given some of the hate mail I get.

I already know of at least one occasion where someone tried to stop by.

There is no telephone listing for Catholics Against Kerry in Eagan, MN.

No, no telephone. Email or mail work to reach us. I do not plan on giving out my telephone to everyone.

Who owns the catholicsagainstkerry.com website, jmaroneps37 ???

At the bottom of the site it indicates “paid for by Vote Catholic.” Vote Catholic is a PAC, and that is who owns it.

Other than references to "John", "Kevin" and "Mike", there isn't a single name, church or organization associated with this site. Why not?

?????? A church CAN”T be associated with it. Churches are 501(c)(3) organizations, they are not legally allowed to do political activity of the sort we do: expressly advocating against a named candidate. As to no organization listed???? Catholics Against Kerry is an organization, as is Vote Catholic. Both are listed.

As to personal names, I see no reason to give out full names to any DU type who stops by the site. See reference to hate mail, above.

Cafepress ( the location where John, Kevin and Mike tell you to order a bumper strip or a t-shirt ) displays a "anyone but Bush" t-shirt on their home page.....curious to say the least!!!

Were there better groups, I would not use cafépress. However, I do not have much for other options. I don’t have time to print up t-shirts, bumper stickers, and the like on a one by one basis. For those who want larger orders, we do those ourselves to cut café press out.

As to it being a scam to take money from others, do some research please. Go to one of our café press stores and look at our prices. Then compare them to Café Press’s minimum pricing. Buttons, for example, are sold at a minimum of $1.25 per button (10 packs and 100 packs are cheaper). That is the amount cafepress takes. I can then mark the product up over that price, and could say sell it for $2.00. If I did that, I would take .75 in profit. I have not, however, and sell the buttons for the minimum I can, $1.25. Guess what my profit is off that, when café press takes the first $1.25 off it.

Still think it’s a scam? At most, I’ve priced products one penny over the minimum (I rounded up, and I did the penny because I thought it would help track sales). Check it out for yourself. Yes, we do ask for donations to fund our website expenses, but we haven’t taken in much money, so our activity is largely limited to that.

"This website has been visited by 27140 unique visitors since April 1, 2004", and then says, "We have had over 100,000 page views now." Must be some kind of government school new math.

No need to be insulting. A unique visitor is one person who stops by. A page view is a look at a page. Each visitor can look at more than one page. So, if on average each visitor looks at four pages, we can have 27K in unique visitors, and have 100K in page views.