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Tribes enlist Arnie's help in fishing feud
The Scotsman ^ | July 24, 2004 | JAMES DOW

Posted on 07/24/2004 2:35:05 AM PDT by MadIvan

Native Americans demonstrating in Edinburgh yesterday Fish rotting in the Klamath river. The tribesmen are calling for fish ladders or other measures to allow salmon to move upstream. Picture: David Moir

NATIVE Americans embroiled in a dispute with the energy company ScottishPower have pledged to take their case to the governor of the State of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The tribesmen were in Edinburgh yesterday to demonstrate at ScottishPower’s annual meeting. They say dams owned by a subsidiary of the company have damaged their fishing grounds.

They publicly challenged the chief executive of ScottishPower, Ian Russell, to make a personal commitment to resolving the long-running feud.

Mr Russell, who held private talks with the tribes on Thursday, promised to take charge of the company’s negotiations.

But the chairman of the delegation representing the tribes, Leaf Miller, said he would bring further pressure to bear on the company by seeking Mr Schwarzenegger’s support.

Mr Schwarzenegger is one of only a small number of people with the power to intervene in the dispute and force a solution.

The row concerns six dams in the north of California owned by ScottishPower’s US subsidiary, PacifiCorp. Four tribes - the Klamath, Karuk, Yurok and Hoopa - say the dams have devastated the salmon stock in the Klamath river basin.

The salmon are an important part of their economy, religion and history, and the tribes are trying to persuade ScottishPower to modify or remove its dams to allow fish to migrate up-river.

A member of the Indians’ delegation - whose native American name is Mohiswaqs but who introduced himself at the shareholders’ meeting as Jeff Mitchell - made an impassioned plea for support from the mostly Scottish audience.

He said: "I want to thank you, the people of Scotland, for your hospitality and for allowing us to come into your homelands to speak to you in this way.

"My people have suffered enormous harm. We would like to see a full range of alternatives - consistent with our principles - to address the issues we have raised. I will come back here again and again until we find a solution."

Mr Russell replied that the tribes had his "absolute commitment" to finding an answer to their dispute. He said: "We completely respect the sovereign nations who are represented here today. They have behaved with great dignity."

ScottishPower is currently seeking a new licence to operate the dams from the US water regulator. The tribes are pressuring the regulator to insert a clause in the licence requiring ScottishPower to provide solutions such as fish ladders - which allow salmon to leap upstream.

Scottish & Southern Energy, the Perth-based rival to ScottishPower, has installed similar devices on some rivers in Scotland. Some of the Californian dams are too tall, however, to accommodate fish ladders, requiring different solutions.

As governor of the state of California, Mr Schwarzenegger can demand the regulator inserts guarantees to protect the tribes’ interests. Mr Schwarzenegger’s office was unavailable yesterday to comment on its intentions in the case.

Mr Miller said he would press for the governor’s support shortly. "We have had an initial contact with the governor’s office and I will take a campaign to them when I return to the US," he said.

"In fact, we believe we already have strong support from some of the state’s agencies, such as the Water Resource Control Board."

Mr Russell told The Scotsman he was unwilling to set a deadline to resolve the discussion. "Some of these licence applications can take up to ten years," he said.

Mr Mitchell said he hoped the company would report at its annual meeting in 2005 that the two sides had agreed a solution.

ScottishPower shareholders heard that the Indian tribes had spent more than three years in negotiations with the company’s American subsidiary. They have been pressuring it to add - of its own volition - the desired clauses into its licence application.

But when the company recently submitted its draft application to the US water regulator, there was no mention of the salmon issue. The document is understood to weigh 80lb and stand three-and-a-half feet high.

Mr Mitchell said: "My people have spent years in meetings with PacifiCorp, one week of every month. We have committed enormous resources and hard work. The company’s interest in the dams is a very small fraction of their energy production."

He said ScottishPower’s commitment to the environment on issues such as green energy was "impressive". Such concerns were in the interests of shareholders, he said, and he asked them to press the company to extend its consideration to California.

Molly White, from the Karuk tribe, who had travelled to the protest with her 14-month-old son, Nicknekich, said: "We hope the shareholders hear our message and we hope it has an effect, because the fish are dying and we cannot live without our fish."

The chief executive of PacifiCorp, Judi Johansen, said she was "100 per cent committed" to finding a solution to the tribes’ requests. She had joined Mr Russell in the talks with the delegation on Thursday.

Mr Schwarzenegger - also known as Conan the Republican and The Governator in American political circles - pledged recently to "fight like a warrior" for the people of California.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: California; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: arnold; indians; klamath; klamathbasincrisis
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I really don't envy Arnold.

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 07/24/2004 2:35:06 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: agrace; lightingguy; EggsAckley; dinasour; AngloSaxon; Dont Mention the War; KangarooJacqui; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 07/24/2004 2:35:35 AM PDT by MadIvan (Gothic. Freaky. Conservative. - http://www.rightgoths.com/)
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To: MadIvan

Wait a minute - wasn't there something about irrigation problems at Klamath basin for farmers resulting out of environmental protection of some 'endangered species'? This is going back a few years.

Maybe I'm confused


3 posted on 07/24/2004 2:39:26 AM PDT by Happygal (Kerry has a chin that could chop cabbage in a glass!)
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To: MadIvan

BTW, is it true that over-fishing by native American tribes has resulted in the depletion of many salmon stocks - not just at Klamath, but in rivers across the US?


4 posted on 07/24/2004 2:41:48 AM PDT by Happygal (Kerry has a chin that could chop cabbage in a glass!)
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To: MadIvan

whats a fish ladder?


5 posted on 07/24/2004 2:42:24 AM PDT by GeronL (Time for a Constitutional Amendment banning Government giving money away to anyone or anything...)
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To: GeronL

A series of pools arranged like ascending steps at the side of a stream, enabling migrating fish to swim upstream around a dam or other obstruction


6 posted on 07/24/2004 2:51:11 AM PDT by Pylon (NSD 7-4-69 12-24-87)
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To: Pylon

You looked that up, right?


7 posted on 07/24/2004 2:54:40 AM PDT by GeronL (Time for a Constitutional Amendment banning Government giving money away to anyone or anything...)
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To: GeronL
whats a fish ladder?

Didn't you know? A fish ladder is for fish that have grown feet, after their bodies morphed from all the nasty pollution those damn oil-hungry republicans pumped in the US national rivers. Damnit! ;-)

8 posted on 07/24/2004 3:45:33 AM PDT by Happygal (Kerry has a chin that could chop cabbage in a glass!)
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To: Happygal; farmfriend; Jeff Head; take; *KlamathBasinCrisis
Wait a minute - wasn't there something about irrigation problems at Klamath basin for farmers resulting out of environmental protection of some 'endangered species'? This is going back a few years.

Yes, and there were some FReepers involved with that.

9 posted on 07/24/2004 5:28:08 AM PDT by Amelia
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To: Happygal

Nice factual response from someone who calls themselves a journalist... *cough*


10 posted on 07/24/2004 6:06:10 AM PDT by KangarooJacqui (http://www.RightGoths.com/ - Gothic. Freaky. Conservative. Wear black and be proud!)
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To: GeronL
whats a fish ladder?


Come on, everybody know that,


It's a aluminum frame ladder that can extend twice the size of it's frame shaped like a largemouth Bass, where start at the tail and climb your way up to its head.
11 posted on 07/24/2004 6:10:20 AM PDT by dagoofyfoot
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To: MadIvan
You shouldn't envy Arnold. He's at the nexus of California Republican politics, as divisive and in-fighting a group as there ever was.

Can't speak to the Hoopa issue. We have an old dam in my area without ladders and I'm all for a project to retrofit it.

12 posted on 07/24/2004 7:08:09 AM PDT by GVnana (Tagline? I don't need no stinkin' tagline!)
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To: Happygal; abbi_normal_2; Ace2U; adam_az; Alamo-Girl; Alas; alfons; alphadog; amom; AndreaZingg; ...
Rights, farms, environment ping.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.
13 posted on 07/24/2004 9:04:41 AM PDT by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: farmfriend

BTTT!!!!!!!


14 posted on 07/24/2004 9:12:20 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: farmfriend
Farmfriend, can you jog my memory. What was the endangered spieces that lead to problems in the Klamath basin previously?
15 posted on 07/24/2004 9:13:02 AM PDT by Happygal (Kerry has a chin that could chop cabbage in a glass!)
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To: Happygal

Coho Salmon and the short nosed and lost sucker fish


16 posted on 07/24/2004 9:14:11 AM PDT by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: farmfriend
Ah! Yes! The sucker fish! Thanks. I'm going to have to start taking more fish oils meself to improve my long-term memory! :-)
17 posted on 07/24/2004 9:15:45 AM PDT by Happygal (Kerry has a chin that could chop cabbage in a glass!)
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To: MadIvan

Some of these tribes are now casino rich, and aren't they considered independent nations, and not subject to State and County laws? At least that what the Hoopas told us a few years ago, when we chose to pay to camp in a campground on their reservation and their young punks drove in and shot guns over our tents, making us leave in the middle of the night.
They also used to be in the habit of trying to strong arm truck drivers going up the Klamath highway at night. My ex's uncle used to drive truck through that area. They would roll 55 gallon drums onto the highway to stop drivers and then demand a toll.
I have no sympathy for some of these tribes


18 posted on 07/24/2004 9:27:03 AM PDT by tertiary01 (Can't the Dems ever offer a candidate that isn't a lawyer!!)
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To: tertiary01
I am an Indian from the Yurok tribe of that area and I have never heard of the things that you are stating. I would think that if it did happen, it was a bunch of young rowdy punks that have been drinking. Spent half my life in that area and know these Indians well. Very good people and peaceful. There are always a few bad apples. Please try not to judge the whole tribe on the behavior of a few.
19 posted on 07/24/2004 10:01:26 AM PDT by fish hawk
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To: tertiary01
None of these tribes mentioned are "Casino Rich". There are no There is one small casino in Trinidad just north of Eureka but it is small and though it is in traditional Yurok territory, it is owned by the Rancheria there and not by the tribe. There is a fairly large casino in Crescent City but it is owned by the Tolowa tribe. They are doing well but not any where close to "rich". I believe the reason there are not more casinos in that area is that it is in a wilderness area. One needs lots of highway traffic and population to have a rich casino.
20 posted on 07/24/2004 10:09:15 AM PDT by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk

When I complained to the Forest Service guy in Willow Creek, he just laughed and said it happened all the time, and there was nothing he could do. This was only one of quite a few lousey confrontations on that weekend. I learned my lesson, I stay away from the Klamath area and go over to the Sierras. The Maidus over there seem always kind and friendly.


21 posted on 07/24/2004 10:47:30 AM PDT by tertiary01 (Can't the Dems ever offer a candidate that isn't a lawyer!!)
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To: Happygal; MadIvan

MadIvan, it's so good to see you!!

Happygal, yes, we had some "flareups" over this a few years ago, and this is just a step in the tribes* neverending plot to take over as much land as they can. Salmon was selling for $1.98 a pound and there are more fish than ever in the rivers. They want the damns breached. Period. There is alot of documentation of these
"indians" taking pickup loads of fish, mostly wasted, just because they can and that they have different laws than the rest of us regarding game, and well, most everything.

*tribes....okay, for example, the Klamath numbered around 800 when white man first encountered them. There are thousands now, and by their own admission, they invite anyone they want to be a tribe member. I'm more native indian than most of them. They've been paid off a number of times for their land, water rights, etc., but they just keep coming back. The US governement over the last 200 years has turned the "sovereign" indian tribes into a bunch of welfare whinners.

It's past time that this country and it's "Indian" affairs came into the 21st century. We should all be living under the same laws. This nonsense should not be happening in the USA.

You can find out more about this battle at www.klamathbasincrisis.org.


22 posted on 07/24/2004 10:54:37 AM PDT by AuntB ("You are entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own set of facts.’ R.Reagan)
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To: tertiary01

OBTW, my ex could pass as a full blood. His father had Tlingit reservation rights.


23 posted on 07/24/2004 10:56:14 AM PDT by tertiary01 (Can't the Dems ever offer a candidate that isn't a lawyer!!)
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To: fish hawk

"None of these tribes mentioned are "Casino Rich""

What about the casino on Hwy 97 just north of Klamath Falls?
Klaymoyah, or something like that.


24 posted on 07/24/2004 10:59:09 AM PDT by AuntB ("You are entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own set of facts.’ R.Reagan)
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To: AuntB
Thanks for the refresher on this AuntB. I can remember reading a lot about it a couple of years ago, when irrigation of farmland reached critical point.

When I was in Canada last year I understood that native Canadians had extended fishing rights over salmon stocks. (At least the Gitsan tribe did in BC where I was). While Canadians could only rod fish (I think) some of the tribes were netting salmon as they went up-river to spawn. I can understand them having fishing rights over their 'native lands', but jeopardising future stocks is not smart.

25 posted on 07/24/2004 11:00:17 AM PDT by Happygal (Kerry has a chin that could chop cabbage in a glass!)
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To: Jeff Head; redrock; Washington_minuteman; MadameAxe; amom; marsh2; forester; Grampa Dave; ...

Take a look at this one.


26 posted on 07/24/2004 11:01:10 AM PDT by AuntB ("You are entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own set of facts.’ R.Reagan)
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To: MadIvan; hubel458; Ben Ficklin; snopercod; forester; sasquatch
Now that the NAS has proven that the higher flow rates the Tribes demand from Klamath and Iron Gate dams do more harm to fish than good (because the water from those lakes is so warm), the jig on that gambit is up. It is now proven that there are no benefits to fish by breaching the dam. So, the tribes just change venues thinking the State of California and Arnold are a bigger bunch of patsies than even the Feds are.

The tribesmen were in Edinburgh yesterday to demonstrate at ScottishPower’s annual meeting. They say dams owned by a subsidiary of the company have damaged their fishing grounds.

Scottish Power has a generating facility near Klamath Falls that runs on methane from cow dung. It's an economic loser, but heck, they get Kyoto credits for consuming the methane. To get a nice fat return on that new plant, there's nothing quite like getting rid of the Klamath Lakes hydro station to abet an increasingly severe power shortage to bump that return.

It has been obvious since before the California Power Crisis that Scottish Power might look for an excuse to breach that dam. What is truly sad is that bird habitat will take a serious hit if they do, just as cutting back water to the farmers has done because the farmers used to feed the birds on their crop residues. Removing that dam will have serious environmental consequences for bird life on the Pacific flyway, unless there's an available substitute.

I would hazard that The Nature Conservancy (heavily bankrolled by British royals) is thoroughly behind this. As I understand it, TNC has been swiping water upstream of Klamath for a bird santuary of their own for quite some time now (probably illegally).

27 posted on 07/24/2004 11:50:30 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: AuntB

The loony left are working over time.


28 posted on 07/24/2004 11:58:03 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: Carry_Okie

Interesting. You amaze me at how you are able to pull all these threads together.


29 posted on 07/24/2004 12:13:23 PM PDT by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: farmfriend; snopercod
We owe a lot to Ed Hubel for his insightful comments from inside this mess. I just wish he could tell us where he gets this information. Consider his posts on this oldie.
30 posted on 07/24/2004 12:53:41 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: Carry_Okie

I never see his posts and I have lost contact with him privately.


31 posted on 07/24/2004 12:58:01 PM PDT by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: farmfriend

His last post was in September, 2003.


32 posted on 07/24/2004 1:06:28 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: Carry_Okie

Well I have an old address. Maybe I will try again.


33 posted on 07/24/2004 1:11:19 PM PDT by farmfriend ( In Essentials, Unity...In Non-Essentials, Liberty...In All Things, Charity.)
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To: MadIvan

The fish die off that occurred several years back was due to parasitic infections (Colunaris and Ich.)The Klamath system is universally hot and apparently there were insufficient temperature cues to move the migrating salmon upriver, so they stacked up in large densities trying in a geological bottleneck. It was also a naturally low flow year, (but not the lowest on record.) A major portion of the colder Trinity River is diverted to the central valley (this should change in the future.) Emergency flow releases from the Trinity were used in subsequent years to prevent these die offs. This tear may be another critical year.

On May 10, sick and dying juevenile fish began to appear in fish screw traps on the Klamath River. A comprehensive fish survey was done on an 87 mile stretch of river from Klamath River to below Big Bar. Fish appeared to lack energy, some had bloated abdomens and showed signs of having disease. In samples taken above the Scott River’s confluence with the Klamath River, 0-50% of the fish showed signs of having parasitic Ceratomyxa Shasta and 60-95% showed signs of having Parvicapsula (kidney disease.) The natural incidence of these parasitic diseases in Klamath River fish is unknown. Studies are being done to learn more about it. It appears to be a substantial factor effecting fish population trends.

As for the dams, there is a large bass lake (Copco) behind Iron Gate. Removal of the dams would drain the lake. A lot of retirees have settled around the lake and their homes would be devalued by millions of dollars. There are also resorts in the downriver canyon which would be affected and white water rafting in the upriver canyon which would be affected.

Approximately 20% of Siskiyou County's tax income comes from the dams and PacifiCorp property in Siskiyou County. There is also the issue of sediment release from a breach of the dam and what that would do downriver. PacifiCorp studies also show that it is unlikely that salmon would survive very far above the current lake.

There are seven dams on the Klamath. Energy facilities are used to privide "peak" power when needed the most by consumers. Iron gate dam was built because the peaking operation made the river fluctuate wildly and killed several fishermen. If you ripped out Iron Gate, you would have to eliminate the upriver peaking facilities as well.

Siskiyou County is supporting efforts such as trucking or bypasses to bring the fish around Iron gate and Copco to see if they will re-establish using adaptive management techniques. This would minimize the damage to other people and the Copunty from ripping out the dams.

There is some information that without the dams, the natural flow of the Klamath became reduced to a much smaller volume of waterin the summer. This follows a similar hydrograph with other rivers in the system.

On the issue of sovereignty, the tribes are domestic dependent nations. Under Public Law 280, they are subject to the General and criminal laws of the State of California. They have the sovereignty to pass their own civil laws, similar to County government.

The Karuk are currently in the process of contracting with the Governor for a casino in Yreka.

I recently traveled through Hoopa and had a flat tire on a Sunday in a County car. A very nice young man and his mother helped me change the tire. They were very friendly. I have worked on several federal committees with the tribal fisheries representatives and, although we have butted heads once in a while, I believe we are beginning to develop a deeper respect for eachother's point of view.

The Upper Basin Farmers are caught between biological opinions requiring minimum lake levels for endangered sucker fish and flows for threatened coho. The NAR National Academy of Science -Research group) determined that hot water flows from the upper basin were not helpful. They are still currently required, none-the-less.

The lake and flow requirments have left farmers with a deficit of water for irrigation. So much so, that a few years back the Byreau of Reclamation cut off their water. Protests were held at the canal headgates, ceasing with a small release of water and the advent of 9/11. Many of the farmers and businesses went bankrupt or suffered heavy losses. Inadequate water allocations continue to plague the farmers.

Well that about sums it up.


34 posted on 07/24/2004 1:16:31 PM PDT by marsh2
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To: Carry_Okie
Speaking of oldies, do you recall that Scottishpower is a willing participant in the World Bank Prototype Carbon Fund.

It's so funny that they are selling high-priced electricity to California and funneling the "profits" to Sri Lanka and Red China.

ScottishPower, Calif DWR Sign 10Yr Pwr Deal For About $1B

35 posted on 07/24/2004 1:36:21 PM PDT by snopercod (What we have lost will not be returned to us.)
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To: snopercod
Speaking of oldies, do you recall that Scottishpower is a willing participant in the World Bank Prototype Carbon Fund.

To which I referred above. IIRC, they can only pull that in Oregon where they have a totally unconstitutional Kyoto compliance provision, but I little doubt that California pays into that fund when we buy power generated in Oregon.

36 posted on 07/24/2004 1:48:20 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by central planning.)
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To: AuntB
Aunt B, the tribes around Klamath Falls Oregon are not really on the Klamath river. That is the Klamath Lakes area where the big fight went on about the sucker fish and the ranchers. I was only speaking of the tribes in the article. The Yurok, Karuk, and Hoopa. Yes there are casinos just about everywhere there are Indians now days but hardly any in isolated areas. For casinos to flourish there has to be population or major highways with tourists etc. Aloha
37 posted on 07/24/2004 2:09:29 PM PDT by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk; tertiary01
Very good people and peaceful.

Very true.
We're headed for the river next week for a week or so. Hope you're well.
We may head West for a while this Fall.
Aloha,
S.
38 posted on 07/24/2004 2:59:13 PM PDT by sasquatch
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To: marsh2; Carry_Okie; farmfriend; Iconoclast2; Grampa Dave; Issaquahking; AuntB; Jeff Head; ...
"Siskiyou County is supporting efforts such as trucking or bypasses to bring the fish around Iron gate and Copco to see if they will re-establish using adaptive management techniques. This would minimize the damage to other people and the Copunty from ripping out the dams."

Geeze! I saw a fish "elevator" at the mouth of the Klamath in the 1970's while on vacation!!!

It was an ingenius contraption being used by an American Indian. He had his Ford tractor hooked to a cable which in turn was hooked to a huge net that extend clean across the river that elevated all the fish that happened to be blocked, waiting to get around the net... RIGHT UP THE BANK AND INTO HIS PICKUP TRUCK!!!

Who the heck needs fish "ladders?" Just put a big net at the base of each dam, hooked to a large crane and lift 'em over!!!

Arnold could have a great "Photo Op" busting a can of compressed envirobullshit repellant over the bow of the crane!!!

So let's see now... If we breach the dams and drain upper Klamath Lake, the endangered short nosed sucker fish ALL die and migratory waterfoul get stranded and the Klamath dries up to a trickle each September/October.

The farmers then all go to the cities and live on taxpayer money and vote for Democrats to keep the money flowing. The rafters and power companies are all left up a well known tributary without the necessary accessories and CA industry shuts down without enough affordable energy at peak periods and the $15 Billion bondage defaults...

Have I got the scenario figured out yet??? If not... Will one of you please straighten me out???

39 posted on 07/24/2004 3:55:46 PM PDT by SierraWasp (LEGALIZE TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FREEDOM!!! Oh! And legalize liberty, too! While you're at it!!!)
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To: SierraWasp

Fish elevators are in use on the Columbia. They work.


40 posted on 07/24/2004 4:04:22 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Happygal

You are not confused. The farmers got their water shut off and it was diverted to the river 2+ years ago to make the Indians happy. Didn't save the fish then, either. Drought is a problem for all of to share. Lots of farmers went bust over this water shut off, and the Government is still paying off the remaining farmers who sued.
The bigger problem is the Indian tribes overfishing the rivers. Their tribal numbers have grown, also, and they still expect the rivers and fish to supply them with "their needs".
Now they are attacking the power companies. These same Indians are using power in their homes, both on and off the reservation.
Also, tribes are stumbling over themselves to all have mega-casinos. They are lit up like crazy. SOOOOOOOOO, where do they think the power comes from? If you destroy long standing power sources in less populated areas, and there are no new sources being constructed, and the tribes themselves are suddenly using much more in their casinos than they used in their homes, what do they think will happen?
Someone sure hasn't taken a good look at the long view here, IMO.


41 posted on 07/24/2004 4:34:24 PM PDT by ridesthemiles (ridesthemiles)
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To: SierraWasp; farmfriend; AuntB; JustAmy; Jeff Head; brityank; backhoe; Libertina; Spanaway Lori; ...
Wasp my friend, the enviro whack's who care nothing about the environment, have turned to other means to try and control the masses. They still want to get us all in cities at any cost, they're just escalating the war till someone does actually fire a shot. At which time they'll point a finger at us and talk about the violence we have created!

Here in Salt Lake City we have two very suspicious big fires as of late,(and reeks of ELF)and people refuse to recognize the dangers of the left. I say let's start a war on "The Green Al-quaida" and start locking the scum up at the very least!

Again I say that the real environmentalists in America are the small farmer and rancher, small miner, and small family sawmills; ACTUALLY THESE GROUPS ARE THE REAL ENDANGERED SPECIES BY DEFINITION!!! AS IS ANY INDIVIDUAL PATRIOT IN AMERICA WHO TRIES TO MAKE HIS LIVING OFF THE LAND.
42 posted on 07/24/2004 5:05:24 PM PDT by Issaquahking (U.N., greenies, etc. battling against the U.S. and Constitution one freedom at a time. Fight Back !)
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To: Happygal
You are not confused...and the species was no more endangered than the common ant. The sucker fish was nothing more than a politcal and ideological ploy.

Those who are against property rights and the other fundamental, foundational principles this nation and our liberties were founded upon use this act regularly try and destroy those foundational principles.

Read about the entire event here, at THE STAND AT KLAMATH FALLS.

I was privileged to be eyewitness to those events.

43 posted on 07/24/2004 7:12:57 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: Issaquahking
THESE GROUPS ARE THE REAL ENDANGERED SPECIES BY DEFINITION!!! AS IS ANY INDIVIDUAL PATRIOT IN AMERICA WHO TRIES TO MAKE HIS LIVING OFF THE LAND.

Amen my friend, but let me amend that just a little...ANY TRULY PATRIOTIC AMERICAN WHO SEEKS TO KNOW, INTERNALIZE AND FOLLOW THE FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLES THIS NATION WAS FOUNDED UPON IS ENDANGERED and squarley in the target sites of Al Quida and their abettors on the left, in the environmental movement, adherants to the UN Agenda's 21 or any of the other myriad efforts such enemies have going in this nation that are attempting to destroy those values.

And the most dangerous of those enemies are those who live amongst us and take advantage of the liberties and the principles in an effort to destroy them. They are true sappers within the perimeter.

The ESA is being used in such a fashion and it DOES NOT need to be amended IMHO...it needs to be abolished in whole.

44 posted on 07/24/2004 7:19:51 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: SierraWasp; Carry_Okie; Noumenon; Washington_minuteman; AuntB; Grampa Dave; B4Ranch
You got it SW...all a part of Agenda 21, being pushed by enemies to everything this nation was founded upon and upon which our liberties rest.

See my posts 43 and 44.

45 posted on 07/24/2004 7:26:05 PM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: Jeff Head; Issaquahking; Carry_Okie; calcowgirl; farmfriend; Boot Hill; DoughtyOne; marsh2; ...
"See my posts 43 and 44."

I seen 'em my FRiend Jeff who has the courage of his convictions!!! I just wish you were here in CA to help encourage all the lilly-livered Republicans and so-called "Conservatives," who are far too afraid to stand up to our very own property rights "Terminator!" (The Governator)

It seems his power of personality just makes everyone but a very few swoon and bow down to his Sierra-Nevada Conservacancy, even though his Recalled predecessor at least had enough sense to veto the ultimate in shear, utter nonsense!!!

The scenario it will trigger is just as stupid as that the one I articulated above and will also trigger an eventual back-lash against Republicans AND Conservatives for decades!!!

I had dinner last night in South Lake Tahoe with a fellow former County Supervisor who is a Republican, but NOT a Conservative and he has lived under the subjective sway of the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency (TRPA) and The Tahoe Conservancy (A State Agency with paid State Employees with big salaries and defined benefit pensions) for so long, that he thinks another EnvironMental GovernMental Bureaucrazy would be wonderful!!!

He just beamed and glowed at the prospect of "getting millions of dollars in government grants for everything from erosion control to bike paths!" I asked him why he wanted to stop erosion in the Tahoe Basin. Was it to "Keep Tahoe Blue" per the popular bumpersticker? Then I asked him how any and all of the buildable level land ever arrived in the Tahoe Basin... The silence was deafening!!!

By the way, why don't you write novels about scenarios like this, instead of about the Red Chinese? I know... It doesn't sell as well, right? I know, that wasn't a fair question. Sorry...

46 posted on 07/24/2004 9:06:05 PM PDT by SierraWasp (LEGALIZE TRADITIONAL AMERICAN FREEDOM!!! Oh! And legalize liberty, too! While you're at it!!!)
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To: SierraWasp

I'll tell you what, you come up with a way to declare the conservancies unconstitutional, and I'll back the turnover of all conservancy lands to the general public. The state can go screw itself into the ground.

I have no love for these land grabbing a.h.s.


47 posted on 07/24/2004 9:22:42 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Fox News is Fair and Balanced. Move-on.org is Bare and Imbalanced.)
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To: marsh2

"I believe we are beginning to develop a deeper respect for eachother's point of view"

Oh, I so hope you are right. Thanks, Marsh.


48 posted on 07/24/2004 9:58:54 PM PDT by AuntB ("You are entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own set of facts.’ R.Reagan)
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To: ridesthemiles

It's never about the long view, that might be environmentally sound. It's about greed. The thing that causes any man to take what belongs to another. It was true 200 years ago and it still is, the characters have just changed.


49 posted on 07/24/2004 10:02:49 PM PDT by AuntB ("You are entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own set of facts.’ R.Reagan)
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To: Issaquahking

Oh,Rocky, I'm sitting here in my study watching what looks llke a 50 mile ridge flame red about 15-20 miles from me. It's Southwest of Klamath falls. I can't find any current information on the net tonight for some reason. We had lots of lightning, no rain, strong winds. Doesn't look good.


50 posted on 07/24/2004 10:08:05 PM PDT by AuntB ("You are entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own set of facts.’ R.Reagan)
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