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Andrew Sullivan: Kerry: the right choice for conservatives (VOMIT TILL YOU DIE ALERT)
The Sunday Times ^ | July 25, 2004 | Andrew Sullivan

Posted on 07/24/2004 4:32:41 PM PDT by MadIvan

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To: MadIvan

You're right. Simply put, the gay marriage issue is the issue for Sullivan. He is in complete support of the process by which the courts will impose this bizarro-world, twilight zone vision of marriage on the entire nation. And that is as unconservative as one can get; to favor the rule of judges over self-governance.


51 posted on 07/24/2004 5:36:27 PM PDT by Aetius
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To: Miss Marple
That about sums it up. I could not have said it any better myself, particularly since I agree with most of your subpoints. But those are just my little biases. Kudos.
52 posted on 07/24/2004 5:40:06 PM PDT by Torie
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To: MadIvan

Syphilitic dementia.


53 posted on 07/24/2004 5:41:01 PM PDT by Petronski (Sandy Berger believes there's no int'l dispute that can't be solved by the U.S walking away from it.)
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To: MadIvan
I don't think it's liberal vs conservative any longer, it's radical vs reactionary. The radicals want change, and the reactionaries prefer the status quo. It depends on the issue which term describes the Republicans and which the Democrats. Gay marriage: Republican = reactionary, Democrat = radical. School vouchers: Republican = radical, Democrat = reactionary. Sometimes there *is* no difference, such as out-of-control spending, where both sides are reactionary.

I have to say that I certainly didn't get what I expected with Bush, and I wish we had someone who adopted more of the agenda the Republicans espoused before he took office. On the other hand, Kerry? Please. I have to think Sullivan is having a bit of fun with us here. Nobody who's seen Kerry operate can possibly expect him to live up to one word of what he says on anything whatsoever. The man's a weathervane and will turn in the direction of which breeze is strongest, with a strong spring-loaded bias toward the left direction of course.

And finally, I don't have the animosity some of you have toward gays. Most of the ones I've met are actually traditional mainstream people in the other aspects of their lives, and aren't out there trolling the parks for children or exhibiting their intimate body piercings in parades. I have no problem with the regular folks, just the real extremeists who want to impose their agenda via the courts and institutions like schools. If they'd try to attain their political aims through gradual societal consensus instead of an end-run around traditionalists, I'd respect them a lot more. (I wonder how the uber-lefties who want total diversity are going to resolve the conflict when radical Islamists whom they welcomed into society start exercising Sharia law and begin killing gays and headstrong women. That should make for an interesting rationalization.)

54 posted on 07/24/2004 5:41:08 PM PDT by John Jorsett
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To: MadIvan
andrew...upset...marriage

Andrew is first and always an adherent of Homosexualism...the religion of homosexuals.

55 posted on 07/24/2004 5:45:53 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Supporting Bush/Cheney 2004!)
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Comment #56 Removed by Moderator

To: John Jorsett
I have no animosity to gays, as long as they leave me and my family alone. I have worked with them, had classes under them, socialized with them, and appreciated much of their work in fashion, design, and the arts.

What I do not appreciate is someone like Sullivan risking the well-being of this nation for his own personal gratification. I hold the same animosity towards the anti-immigration people who oppose Bush, simply because they want to "teach him a lesson."

We are at war. People who want their own pet causes pushed at the expense of national safety are irresponsible, in my opinion.

57 posted on 07/24/2004 5:48:44 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: MadIvan
We should stop referring to a “war” on terror and return to pre-9/11 notions of terrorism, best dealt with by police work in co-ordination with our democratic allies.

Least anyone forget, this is the central issue of this campaign. Anyone agreeing with this statement has a death wish for all non-Islamic civilization.

58 posted on 07/24/2004 5:49:55 PM PDT by JimSEA ( "More Bush, Less Taxes.")
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To: Miss Marple

We do not need a return to normalcy. We need a major confrontation with Iran. The sooner the better.


59 posted on 07/24/2004 5:50:40 PM PDT by zarf
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To: nuconvert

You are correct....it wasn't the best phrase to use here..but it WAS LOL HILLARIOUS !! Oh my....


60 posted on 07/24/2004 5:51:10 PM PDT by chiller (Kill lying liberal Old media.....turn 'em off !)
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To: Petronski

Doubt if it's syphilitic.


61 posted on 07/24/2004 5:52:10 PM PDT by Steve_Stifler
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To: MadIvan
Andrew, really, there are more important things in life than you wanting to get married to another man - this is blinding you to Kerry's deficiencies and exaggerating Bush's defects.

Yes MadIvan, sounds like somebody peed, in the gay boy's Wheaties.

Poor little Andy, who gives a whit of what he thinks about W.

62 posted on 07/24/2004 6:01:33 PM PDT by BobbyK (The Truth Is Out There.)
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To: TruthInExile
I agree completely. We're all fallen sinners, but we're supposed to stop sinning and glorify God.

Sullivan's lifestyle mocks God. At his peril.

63 posted on 07/24/2004 6:10:21 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Cableguy
He is a well known homosexual with AIDS.

In which case he should definitely vote for Bush.

Bush has done more to fight AIDS worldwide than ANY other world leader in history.

64 posted on 07/24/2004 6:17:51 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: MadIvan

It's my opinion that Andrew has been a one issue "man" all along. He can flip and flop all over the place but one thing remains constant. He is devoted to butt sex. That's it. Understand that and you know what drives him.


65 posted on 07/24/2004 6:19:27 PM PDT by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Legislatures are so outdated. If you want real political victory, take your issue to court.)
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To: MadIvan

Coprophilia can be deadly. This guy has sepsis of the brain.


66 posted on 07/24/2004 6:19:53 PM PDT by Antoninus (Federal Marriage Amendment, NOW!)
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To: MadIvan

67 posted on 07/24/2004 6:21:40 PM PDT by Dallas59
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past

I slammed Sullivan, but characterizing him as some sex crazed hormone driven unthinking animal, is really over the top. I refer you to, and extend my remarks, made above.


68 posted on 07/24/2004 6:24:11 PM PDT by Torie
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To: MadIvan
Andrew, really, there are more important things in life than you wanting to get married to another man ...

Selling out for sodomy.

69 posted on 07/24/2004 6:25:22 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham ("This house is sho' gone crazy!")
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To: Miss Marple; John Jorsett; Gillian; MadIvan
The problem with today's homosexual is that they cannot live in anonymity. They are compelled to reveal, rejoice in and proselytize their sexual choices.

Years ago homosexuals were aware (because churches and society told them) that they were sexually confused and maladapted due to some early childhood sexual abuse. So they kept their behavior to themselves.

Not these days. Once the American Psychiatric Association lifted its admonition against homosexuality, gays were encouraged to declare their gayness as "normal" and "healthy."

It's neither.

I have no animosity toward gays who admit their error. We are all sinners in need of God's grace.

But gays who teach our children that homosexuality is good and productive are evil. They are perpetuating the sexual abuse of children which they've suffered themselves.

It has to stop somewhere.

70 posted on 07/24/2004 6:28:20 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: MadIvan

sullivam only cares about homosexual sex.

he is irrelevant


71 posted on 07/24/2004 6:34:01 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: nwrep
Andrew the faggot can't stop thinking through his pants.

Regrettably, that seems to be a failing that Andrew shares with a past President.

That Sullivan can't see that Middle East "nation building" is inextricably linked to national security represents a triumph of libido over good sense.

And that he can't comprehend that what Kerry might say, while campaigning, has no particular relationship to what he might do, if elected also tells me that his prism is monochromatic pink.

How unfortunate. I just lost a lot of respect for Sullivan...

72 posted on 07/24/2004 6:34:34 PM PDT by okie01 (The Mainstream Media: IGNORANCE ON PARADE)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
You have made an interesting point. I grew up in the 50's, and in fact did not understand what "sissies" actually did until I was in my 20's. There is much to be said for everyone keeping quiet about their failings.

I must say that we have seen in the last few years a lot of talking about one's personal failings as a way to gain approval. It isn't only homosexuals who are doing this. Adulterers, gluttons, spendthrifts, misogynists, racists, and selfish people all have written articles and gone to the airways to tell us that their thinking is really mainstream.

This is destructive to society and also to the people who do so. Sullivan, by airing his failings, has forced himself to take a position that sacrifices his common sense on the altar of sexual gratification.

My personal opinion is that people's personal lives are theirs; when they drag it into the public arena they invite comment on their lives, and it isn't always going to be approving.

I am not the world's best housekeeper. That is my failing. However, I do not ask HGTV to come into my home so that I can ask everyone to approve my sloppiness. And should I do so, I would not be surprised to see critics surface who keep neater homes and think that I should correct myself.

73 posted on 07/24/2004 6:39:02 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Jorge

No, homosexuals care more about gay marriage than AIDS in Africa.


75 posted on 07/24/2004 6:40:48 PM PDT by Cableguy
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To: MadIvan

What a completely moronic article. Conservatives (includes conservative Christians )Should vote for Kerry so we can be retrained? Sullivan is a one issue voter (gay marriage), he can't understand that the right to marry is only important if you are alive...not dead from some vicious terrorist attack.

Eight years of Clinton (typical Democrat national security policy) lead directly to 9-11. This is the first attack on American soil since Parl Harbor. Since 9-11, the Democrats have committed treason in order to be elected. They have stolen secret documents, lied, given aid and comfort to the enemy and tried to block President Bush's national security efforts constantly.

Democratic activist plan to tie up the police with their nonsense (visiting gun ranges etc so they set off alarms at security checkpoints) thus helping terrorists who want to kill us. The Democrats as a party (I used to one) have lost their minds and are a complete disgrace. Wake up and smell the coffee Andrew, Democrats are a national disgrace, and no thinking, responsible person would consider voting for any Democrat for any elected office-not even dog catcher. Dogs deserve better.... and so does America.


76 posted on 07/24/2004 6:41:06 PM PDT by nyconse
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To: MadIvan

This is a new low for Andrew. He's pushing a socialist and he knows it.


77 posted on 07/24/2004 6:42:09 PM PDT by McGavin999 (If Kerry can't deal with the "Republican Attack Machine" how is he going to deal with Al Qaeda)
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To: MadIvan

Nothing matters as much to a queer as buggery. The whole world can go to hell, as long as he can satisfy his addiction. That's one thing that makes them different from normal people.


78 posted on 07/24/2004 6:44:25 PM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: ambrose

"I think we can do without some of the other comments I am reading here, don't you?"

Well, no. Sullivan is a single-issue voter who is pretending that that is not the case, which is dishonest. I might wish that the comments were more diplomatically phrased, but the substance they convey is an accurate evaluation of reality.


79 posted on 07/24/2004 6:45:32 PM PDT by walden
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To: nothingnew

That was an obnoxious and unfair comment. My brother is gay, and he's voting for Bush. He's also very involved in his corporate work.

I don't think that gay-bashing is a very constructive activity.


80 posted on 07/24/2004 6:58:56 PM PDT by feelgoodfox
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To: walden

re: ambrose's comment, "I think we can do without some of the other comments I am reading here, don't you?" I agree. The ugly comments on this board make me cringe. Can't you people stick to making valid points instead of pretending that homosexuals aren't human?

Your comments say more about who you are than who "they" are.


81 posted on 07/24/2004 7:09:15 PM PDT by feelgoodfox
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To: MadIvan
Truly unbelievable. No one was more gun-ho to get into Iraq than Andrew. He accused Bush of dragging his feet and his impatience with Bush was palpable. Is his foolishness stemming from a hoping that his readers have limited retention skills or has he actually forgotten his previous musings? Sullivan's uncontrolled vacillating between these two candidates must be giving him mental whiplash.

A man who is a pro-abortion (in all cases) supporter, UN worshiping, affirmative action loving, tax raising, gun controller, kowtower to Europe, with the ability to appoint the most liberal supreme court justices in the history of the republic, my dream candidate? Not in this lifetime.

82 posted on 07/24/2004 7:16:36 PM PDT by CaptainK
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To: willyboyishere

hardly an individual. he is just parroting the HRC talking points.


83 posted on 07/24/2004 7:17:32 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: MadIvan
As a conservative, I will not vote for nor support a Communist sympathizer. Bush has my vote, unless someone from the Constitution party gets on the ballot in Oklahoma.
84 posted on 07/24/2004 7:26:36 PM PDT by Chewbacca (Michael Moore is a filthy piece of distended rectum.)
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To: feelgoodfox

I think that my comment says that I'm REALLY tired of so-called Republican or conservative commentators pretending that they've formed a well-grounded argument against re-electing Bush when they're really only forming that opinion based on a single issue, which they do not clarify.

In addition, I'm just tired of the gay/lesbian/whatever folks in general. Enough already. Getting the country to say that gay sex is just as socially functional as heterosexual sex won't make it true. The two babies I bore and raised prove that.


85 posted on 07/24/2004 7:33:37 PM PDT by walden
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To: MadIvan
Andrew is merely upset that Bush tried to push through the new constitutional amendment defending marriage.

Absolutely true. Though its slightly deeper than that.

Andrew has never been a terribly conservative fellow in the first place. But he likes the image, so he's been trying his d*mnedest to redefine the word to suit his personal preferences. Witness his unintentionally hillarious effort at making the "conservative case for gay marriage."

Andrew is at best a fellow traveller with conservatives around basic fiscal issues and the War on Terror. He's a libertine on social issues, at least the extent of his personal wanton desires. And he has a history of trying to play both sides against the middle to best position his personal agenda - the largest item of which is homosexual advocacy.

When reading Sullivan, one must never forget that he's willing to bend any position for the sake of achieving homosexual political goals. Much like when reading Christopher Hitchens, one must never forget that his addiction to iconoclasm.

86 posted on 07/24/2004 7:34:47 PM PDT by Snuffington
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To: MadIvan

Sullivan's article is so easy to demolish on a logical and factual basis - it makes me wonder whom he thinks he is addressing.


87 posted on 07/24/2004 7:53:58 PM PDT by DianeDePoitiers
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To: MadIvan
At home we need to restrain the unruly religious right.

Everything before and after this phrase is cosmetic. He wants to be able to marry another man, and that is the most important thing to him. He thinks we can't see that, but -perhaps to his credit, or not- he's not that nuanced.

88 posted on 07/24/2004 8:20:08 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: feelgoodfox
That was an obnoxious and unfair comment.

Homosexuality is obnoxious and much worse, and the gay agenda being forced on all of us is way more than unfair. Sell it to someone else.

FMCDH(BITS)

89 posted on 07/24/2004 8:26:38 PM PDT by nothingnew (KERRY: "If at first you don't deceive, lie, lie again!")
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To: nuconvert

ewwww


90 posted on 07/24/2004 8:29:27 PM PDT by eyespysomething (Virtue is learned at a mother's knee...and vices at other joints.)
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To: MadIvan
Almost overnight after 9/11 Bush junked decades of American policy in the Middle East,

Well, since those decades of policy hadn't improved things, I guess the President realized it was time to try something new!

91 posted on 07/24/2004 8:32:47 PM PDT by SuziQ (Bush in 2004-Because we MUST!!!)
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To: walden

Then just let the damned issue go. It's easy enough to ignore gays. Harder to ignore liberals.

I'd prefer Bush to keep his religion out of politics, in the same manner I'd prefer everyone to keep their religion out of politics. But that would be a more perfect world, and we can't have that ;-)


92 posted on 07/24/2004 8:42:55 PM PDT by feelgoodfox
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To: MadIvan

hey Andrew - I respect your thoughts, but I also have to tell you that you want to re-write God's laws, and that - you are not only misguided, but also illminded. Being gay is a mindset - not a birthdefect! Being active in a gay lifestyle is not only wrong, but also a SIN. It is wrong, because you guys carry a high rate of Aids infection - again, that is why God says it is a Sin, and wrong. It must not be tolerated by anyone in any society, and I can only hope that you have enough respect for our desires as well. Go, and find an island - there you can do whatever you like to do!


93 posted on 07/24/2004 8:59:14 PM PDT by Inge C
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To: MadIvan
Start with the war. Almost overnight after 9/11 Bush junked decades of American policy in the Middle East

Yes, Andrew, that policy was just SO EFFECTIVE, now wasn't it? What a dope.

94 posted on 07/24/2004 9:10:13 PM PDT by montag813 ("A nation can survive fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within.")
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To: MadIvan
He has little or no concern for the separation of church and state, funnelling public money to religious charities

Bush respects the First Amendment on religion which is why he DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE among groups who may receive such funds. Sullivan shows his ignorance, falsely believing that the Founders intended a SEPARATION, when they intended only to prohibit a PREFERENCE for one over another---a "Church of the United States". I really thought he was smarter than to fall into the Ralph Neas/Lawrence Tribe school of Constitution Studies.

95 posted on 07/24/2004 9:14:22 PM PDT by montag813 ("A nation can survive fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within.")
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To: feelgoodfox

The ironic thing is that I've never had any problem at all with gays as individual people-- in fact, I've always liked the ones I've known. What I have a problem with is the few activist gays trying to overturn 3000+ years of human history to re-define their relationships as "marriage". And, I've been generally annoyed at Andrew Sullivan for faking his positions. Reasonable people who follow his commentary would conclude that he has sold out to the far left wing of the Dems, and solely because of this issue. He's just not intellectually consistent.


96 posted on 07/24/2004 9:15:14 PM PDT by walden
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To: MadIvan

The AIDS is going to Andrew's brain. It's very sad.


97 posted on 07/24/2004 9:19:15 PM PDT by valkyrieanne
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To: walden

I have the same problem with Andrew that you do. Yes, it's dishonest b.s. he's spouting. I just don't see gays as a threat to our way of life or our constitution.

Whover it was upthread who spoke of voting for what's best for the country had it right.

Meanwhile, I'm leaving this thread. Hearing ignorant people talk about "mindsets" and "sin" makes me gag. So, adios.


98 posted on 07/24/2004 9:22:10 PM PDT by feelgoodfox
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To: MadIvan

"Was it really necessary to insist that the Geneva conventions do not apply to detainees in the war on terror?"

Yes, and it still is. Terrorists have no legal rights under the Geneva convention.


99 posted on 07/24/2004 9:25:40 PM PDT by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: MadIvan

Poor little Andrew Sullivan. He doesn't realize that he is so last year.


100 posted on 07/24/2004 9:27:45 PM PDT by ChocChipCookie (If we had some eggs, we could have bacon and eggs if we had some bacon. --unknown Freeper)
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