Lutherans ordain gay pastor

Star Tribine ^ | 7-26-04 | Chao Xiong

[rightwingreligiousfanatic]

Bishop Craig Johnson of the ELCA Minneapolis Synod did not attend Sunday's service and in the past has not officially recognized a local lesbian pastor.

Question: If the local bishop does not recognize this, then is he really ordained? I thought the bishop had to be involved in sanctioning an official "ordination"?

Just curious. There may be more to the story down the road....

[Russ]

Thanks for putting me on the ping list. The church I attend is a member of the ELCA but we have also joined the ELCF (Evangelical Lutheran Confessing Fellowship) a group fighting the ELCA's leftward tilt from within.

For those who are interested in joining the fight go to: www.ELCF.net

[redgolum]

Some churches have already left the LCMS, with more to follow. Basically, the reelected president is trying to move the LCMS to a more "mainstream" position on some things non liturgical worship and inter denominational fellowship.

I have problems with both. The ECUSA/ECLA mess has shown that you had better be careful about the friends you keep, and part of the BOC and Ausburg Confessions is dedicated to keeping worship liturgical.

However, I am not one of those who think if your service is more "contemporary" you are in danger of hell. Yes, it can lead to less reverence to the Word and Sacrament, but some people are reached in different ways.

There are good and orthodox Christians on both sides, as well as those who are acting in a very unchristian manner. My problem is that this whole thing has gotten so ugly so fast that the whole synod my very well destroy itself.

[Conservativegreatgrandma]

Please add me to the Lutheran ping list.

[BQ91]

My reply here concerns the LCMS,

I was a voting lay delegate at the St. Louis convention we had two weeks ago. My take is the LCMS has very few problems. I am as conservative as a man can be. There are times the GOP is to moderate for me. Also my theology and strong belief in the Holy Word and Lutheran confessions is strong. My take on the LCMS, and I was there all week at the convention. Is we are all conservative in our theological stances, a Church true to the Word of God and the Lutheran Confessions. Our take is that the holy word is literal true word of God, against Woman pastors, against abortion, against homosexuality, evolution, etc.

The issue is what do we focus on the most; Doctrine (confession) or Mission and growth. The ultra structural doctrine type want to focus almost totally on that, the reason is a fear we promote mission to much and forget doctrine we will become like the other lost Christian churches. The domino effect as I see it. As state in an earlier post, there is a fear that if a LCMS Church changes its worship service style to more contemporary then it will start a slippery slop that will lead us down a path false doctrine. Also if we talk and work with other Christian bodies that our unsound it will damage us and we fall prey also.

The other side is saying We most focus on our primary duty to be a tool the Holy Spirit uses it reaching the lost souls. That we should focus on missions and the great commission and growth the lord church, if that means changing our service some and changing our structure of worship and song for some churches and also focusing primarily on evangelism. This side says this is our first Duty, but to also keep true to the Holy Scripture and the Lutheran confessions. That is the question can we keep that. The answer I concluded was Yes. Everyone there was conservative and true to the scripture and confession. It is really a political power struggle between those who want to focus on growth the LCMS and keep true to our principles, but make the Churches more mission driven and growth the Church. Against the people who wish the LCMS to stay as we have been in our worship style and structure.

What must be remembered is the principles do not change, true to sacraments, confession and absolution, etc., what changes is the song, etc. Also is the practice of closed communion can be an issue. Must remember that as a Church Body the LCMS is still one of the most conservative and will remain that way as long as we stay true to the holy word of God. Once we change and start throwing our scripture saying it does not fit into todays society then we are in the same trouble as the ELCA of the world (i.e. Women pastors, abortion, homosexuality, all un biblical practices) Yet, certain parts of the worship service based on human authority, i.e. What creed, songs, are ushers male or female, can women read the Old Testament scripture etc. The question is a human structural question we face and we have always faced it, the worry that with a little change we will change our biblical and confessional principles. But this did not happen when we went from German services to English in the 40’s, or woman did not have to sit on one side of church and men the other, or we allowed woman to vote in the 70’s. These were human rules. From what I saw the LCMS is found on its Biblical principles and will not change that. We will never allow woman pastors, or homosexual members let alone pastors, or approve of abortion because it is unbiblical.

The reason is we have only two great seminaries that are very true to the word of God and the Confessions. The liberal seminaries are what as harmed the ELCA.

[BQ91]

Oh yes, please add me to the Lutheran Ping list. I am also involved on the BOD of some Lutheran organization. I know quite a few leaders in the LCMS, Pastors, members of the LCMS BOD etc.

Also please note from my post above I am a true conservative confessional Evangelical Lutheran. Yet I truly believe we as Confessing Lutherans Number one passion and command from our Lord and savior Jesus Christ is the Great Commission, so that with the Grace of God the Holy Spirit will bring faith to those who who do not yet know Jesus as there Lord and Savior. For it is not us who does this but the Holy Spirit, but we can be the Lord messenger.

In Christ,

Troy

[redgolum]

Take a look at Lutherquest.org. Some congregations have gone indi, and by the sound of it some are considering it.

My father is calling this the great Lutheran circle firing squad.

[Rubber_Duckie_27]

This vote is very likley to spit the ELCA into several pieces, and to send many individual members and families scurrying out of it, especially in liberal synods where they have few or no Lutheran alternatives.

I fear for my parents when (not if) this happens next year - our family left the Missouri Synod in the mid-80s because the local congregation was not at all welcoming of my dad (not Lutheran at the time). Now both of them are relatively conservative Lutherans in a middle-of-the-road ELCA congregation, and this will likely send them running. Unfortunately their local option for the LCMS is the same congregation that shunned us nearly 20 years ago. :-(

I'm still an ELCA member because I wanted very much to marry in the church where I was confirmed. After the wedding this upcoming spring, the two of us will be heading for the LCMS.

[RinaseaofDs]

Please put me on the Lutheran ping list

Thank You!

[ZULU]

Luther wasn't known for his ecumenical spirit.

He hated Anabaptists and Calvinists as much as Catholics. But in this case, I'd say his rage would certainly be justified.

[OKSooner]

Consider it done ping.

[gathersnomoss]

There is a small ECLA congragation in Key West that has an ordained gay pastor.

[BQ91]

Thanks for your post,

I would have to disagree with you on a few points. For the last 5 months I have studied all the issues facing our church, LCMS. I most also note I am very conservative, go to a conservative church use pg. 5 & 15 of the red 1941 ed. Lutheran Hymnal. I was also a delegate. Will we lose some church? , Yes we always have. We lost over 150 Churches when we allowed woman to vote. There are 6000 LCMS Churches and 2.6 million members. Yet, I do believe we are still true to Scriptures and the Confessions. There are those who think if we allow some churches to have a contemporary Worship style this will make their service less. I disagree, for as long as they keep the basic structure; the absolution, confession, Holy Scripture and the word and sacrament, it should be ok. I may not be comfortable there, but it may reach out to a new generation that the Holy Spirit will use to come to Faith in Christ. There are those who think a pastor should only preach from the pulpit, but does it matter it he speaks from the pulpit or walks on the stage. These are the issues we face.

The other is how much contact do we have with other Christians. I think the CTRC position here stands strong, as long as it is not a worship service you can have relations. We must continue to reach out to our other Brother and sisters and influence to come back to the true scriptures. In my community there are only two churches the LCMS church mine about 1100 members and down the road the ELCA church 150-200 members. In a small town it is hard not to come in contact and do civic events together. Also that ELCA is very conservative. We cannot close our church up into a cocoon. We must be more outward. This is the LCMS weakest point, we have the theology right, but we keep it to our self instead of more evangelism. Also we can be so structured and ridged in our service that it turns people away. We can change things a little, become more mission minded and give some church the flexibility to change the service a little, without sacrificing our Lutheran Confessions, Biblical principles, IMO. People make President Kieschnick to be so liberal, I have met him recently and found him to be very conservative theologically, and he is just more flexible to our structure. He being an Texas Aggie grad comes across as more a good old boy type, than the old stanch German type, He is very mission focused, I think a strong Leader on fire for Christ, and wanting that for our Church.

Just my thoughts, I will always keep an open mind to change, and will do so if I ever see us move away from our confessions or Bible based beliefs, I will be in Houston in 2007, I am sure that will be as fun as it was in St. Louis this Summer.

In Chris,

Troy

[redgolum]

Thank you for you post! My concern is that the rift is getting bigger. I don't think the whole Yankee Stadium thing was "OK", but I don't like the idea of schism over it. My main concern is that some of the more, liberal for lack of a better word, congregation have great numbers but little theology. I mean, the whole focus becomes on the show and not on the fact that we are worshiping Jesus! At the same time, I know of large congregations that are great! My only fear is that we are going to a new model for no other reason than every one else is doing it.

You are right though, the LCMS has traditionally been in a bunker mentality