Posted on 07/27/2004 2:52:05 AM PDT by kattracks
[snip]"During the Vietnam War, many young men — including the current president, the vice president and me — could have gone to Vietnam but didn't," Clinton said.
"John Kerry came from a privileged background and could have avoided it, too. Instead he said, 'Send me.' "
Clinton left Kerry's running mate, John Edwards, out of that litany— presumably because Edwards, too, could have chosen to serve in Vietnam but didn't.
[snip]
Clinton — who all but stole the show from Al Gore in 2000 with his Elvis Presley-style saunter into the convention — walked in simply this time, introduced by wife Hillary, but his speech electrified the crowd in a way that Kerry must now match when he speaks to the convention Thursday.
The opening night came amid warning signs for Team Kerry — a new ABC News poll showed he's slipping and seems to have lost momentum heading into the convention. It had President Bush at 49 percent and Kerry at 48.
More ominously, the poll found Kerry losing support to Bush on five of six key issues, including Iraq and terrorism, and slipping on attributes like honesty and leadership, underscoring how much he needs a boost from this convention.
Particularly after Whoopi Goldberg's X-rated tirade against Bush at Radio City, Democrats are so worried about nasty Bush-bashing — which could antagonize swing voters — that Team Kerry has been expurgating it from speeches.
[snip}
(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...
John Kerry said "send me". Kerry went to Vietnam, shot himself in the foot, earned three purple hearts, all this in a span of four months. Kerry came home and protested the Vietnam War, threw his medals over a wall, and said "send me". The next day he went before the Senate and called his war brethren "rapists" and "baby killers".
These people's lack of shame and total disregard for the truth ceases to amaze.
But, since this is a large gathering of hard core Democrats, it shouldn't surprise and amaze anyone that the crowd was electrified by The Bent One.
I'm a little confused. Didn't I read here on FR that Kerry went to France to study and perhaps avoid the military. Anyone know about that?
"Send me" - I don't think it happened quite like that.
I saw a CNN puff-piece bio on Kerry over the weekend, and they completely ignored that year of his life. Funny.
"Send me" -- not really. But, the American voters will NEVER know, thanks to the mainstream media.
<< These people's lack of shame and total disregard for the truth never ceases to amaze. >>
What bothers me is that the 42% of Americans too stupid to know they're being lied to and/or to mean-spirited and/or greedy to care; who believe every word these serially-mendacious morons mutter -- and who make up both the bottom end of the wrong side of the Bell Curve and the "DemocRATS" base -- get to live among and to for the most part feed off the rest of US!
Shudddddddddderrrrrrrrrrrrr ....
Michel Medved noted the same thing on his radio show a few weeks ago - Kerry used student deferrments (as did Dick Cheney) - Kerry's just ran out.
How to be a Democratic Hero - use up all your student deferrments before the war is over. Pathetic...
Michel Medved noted the same thing on his radio show a few weeks ago - Kerry used student deferrments (as did Dick Cheney) - Kerry's just ran out.
How to be a Democratic Hero - use up all your student deferrments before the war is over. Pathetic...
In all fairness, the comment about Edwards and the Vietnam War is misleading. He registered for the draft in '71 and was never called up. Troop withdrawals started in '69.
That 42% would say you and me and the rest of the GOP that, "we're too stupid to be voting for a war-mongering unilateralist cowboy who's only intention is to help the rich get richer while going to war for Halliburton and Enron".
"....'Send me.' "
Yeah, but that was after he was turned down for a year of study time in Paris to avoid the draft. Somebody should get their time-line straight.
It's My Party and I'll Lie if I Want To.
I made up my mind to live a long life, because before I die I'm going to pi$$ on Clinton's grave.
All you say is true (I don't know about the foot shot, but I do know about bandaids.), but what percent of voters know any of it.... thanks to the mainstream media? THAT'S the problem, and it is a fatal problem for this country and the upcoming election.
You left out the most important ingredient to become a "Democratic Hero" -- the Lieing, America-Killing Mainstream Media. Without the configuration of the media, Americans could be hip to some facts. But it's the way it is, it will be that way through November. This election is in trouble and so is the country.
Isn't this the same for President Bush? I believe he started his service in 1970.
Yeah, the fool. Imagine joining up simply because your deferements ran out. Did a little thing like that panic Cheney or Gingrich? Did Phil Graham run and enlist just because he got an undergraduate degree? Did Denny Hastert and Tom DeLay take the easy way out and join up? Hell, no! The went and they worked and they dug until they managed to find still more deferements!
I thought that I read somewhere that there had only been about 500 KIA in Vietnam when Kerry signed up for the Swift boats, which, at the time, were not being used in combat zones. By the time he got over there, the boats were being used to patrol the rivers. Surprise!
Implying,what...democrats aren't as good at finding things?
The point of the speach was that Kerry went when others didn't. My point is that Kerry went because he couldn't keep out anymore.
That does not either excuse or praise any one else of any political party who avoided the draft.
It simply notes that the current definition of a democratic hero at the democratic convention is one for whom the available deferrments ran out.
In 1966, the year Kerry graduated, there were over 5,000 KIA and 30,000 wounded. In 1967, when Kerry was in the Navy but before being assigned to a Swift boat, there were 9,400 KIA and 56,000 wounded. In 1968-69, when Kerry spent his time in a Swift boat, there were 24,000 KIA and over 140,000 wounded. I don't know where you do your reading.
And that's BS. Nobody, but nobody from Kerry's background had to join the military in the 1960's. As the Congressional leadership from both sides of the aisle clearly shows. He could have avoided it, but that wasn't what his hero JFK would have done. So Kerry joined the Navy, JFK's service. He had an easy billet on a guided missile cruiser, but his hero JFK was a PT boat commander. So Kerry volunteered for the closest thing available, Swift boats, so he could continue to emulate his hero. So for whatever reason, Kerry went in to the miltiary because he wanted to, not because he was forced to. Clinton, et.al., stayed out of the military because they wanted to, not because they were forced to.
Man: have you got it bad. After Kerrys deferrments ran out he signed on to the Naval Reserve. Many people chose the navy to keep them from becoming Cannon Fodder in the Army. A nice clean boat is preferable to a foxhols. Kerry spoent his first tour sailing around in a big ship off-shore, he volunteered for swift boats at a time when swift boats were doing nothing but riding around ferrying messages. The all of a sudden he found himself in a war when the swift boat missions were changed, It wasnt so bad though he found that shooting up unarmed Sampans and killing unarmed civilians was fun. He even ran up to a WOUNDED SOLDIER AND SHOT HIM IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD. After hitting himself with his own grenade he got a purple heart and found that two more and he was back to the party in the Land of the Big PX.
Capital News Service
BOSTON - Some delegates and politicians at the convention are being asked to say one nice thing about Republicans -- and mean it.
A trio of Baltimore artists is videotaping their answers for a short movie, "One Nice Thing." The artists -- David Beaudouin, Julia Kim Smith and Francesca Danieli -- plan on asking the same question about Democrats to Republicans at their national convention in New York next month.
So far, the response among Democrats has been "very, very positive," Beaudouin said.
"If there is a single thread (common to the responses), it's that there's a wistfulness for those days when Republicans and Democrats could put aside those differences."
The movie, paid for by the artists, will be shown at White Box, a Manhattan art gallery, and the group is working on showing it in Baltimore.
-- Mike Torralba
Not as bad as other's apparently. Don't get me wrong, I have no particular liking for the man, but I think that there is enough fact in Kerry's background to criticize him for without making up even more.
Fact. He got deferments till they ran out
Fact.He signed up in the Naval Reserve.
Fact. Many did to avoid being groundpoundrs.
Fact. When Kerry joined the swift boats their mission anything but dangerous.
Fact.Kerry shot and killed unarmed civilians with a 50 caliber machine gun , by his own admission testified to under oath.
Fact. His first purple heart was from a grenade thrown by either himself or another American.and a damned small injury it was.
Fact , He jumped off his boat in violation of all rules of leadership ran over and shot a wounded soldier.
Fact. 3 band-aid wounds and he was home.
Please show me one fact that was made up.
You're tougher than I am! My good angel put me to sleep just before the clintons reportedly boffo performances. I'm reading the FR filtered analyses this morning for my own form of healthcare.
I don't understand this statement. I had friends who were called up in 1973. Nixon stopped the draft in 1974 just as I was about to graduate High School (my lottery number was 85; I thought I was headed to the front).
Mixed emotions! Carter and both Clintons made me laugh, Al Gore was a disappointment. Although Gore asked the crowd if they were better off now than 4 years ago, and I cracked open a cold one and hollered "Hell Yeah!".
Now the real test is whether Billl and Hill can disappear for the rest of the week. If not, Kerry might as well not show up.
Here comes the Oxygen sucking just as Kerry is gasping for air. Bill will simply not be able to step away from the adoration and limelight and give the show to Kerry. It is not in his being.
Kerry's overshawdowing has started and will not cease. Keep your Senate seats Johns, your both going to need them.
Better stock up on those cold ones prior to Thursday night's "introduction" to Kerry! BTW who's on tonight? (Just now thought of Costella's "Who's on first?" routine. LOL)
Most of the people who will pull the lever for Kerry on Nov 2 will do so because the Dems have pitched a particular message to all of their constituencies. Whether they're union members who don't understand that jobs are constantly created and destroyed, members of certain privileged minority groups who think Republicans want to reintroduce slavery, public school teachers, women who think abortion is a sacrament, homosexuals and weird-sexers who don't want any infringement on their dangerous life-styles, all those groups and more have particular messages pitched to them by the Dems. Or maybe they're just young and ignorant and believe that they can't make their way in life without government lending a very heavy hand. All of them will vote for the Donkey Party .
Isn't it a fact that when GWB served in the Guard that his unit (or whatever the correct word for it is) could've been called up? I'm of the understanding that units like his were going to Vietnam and that it simply wasn't his turn yet but that he would've gone willingly if called up.
Never heard of grad school, did he?
Fact. Many did to avoid being groundpoundrs.
Well, I can think of at least two recent executive branch members who went Guard to avoid groundpounding. So why the Navy?
Fact. When Kerry joined the swift boats their mission anything but dangerous.
Swift boats had been in Viet Nam since 1966. In the 6 months Kerry was with Coastal Squadron 1 they suffered 8 KIA. The squadron suffered roughly the same number of KIA in the 18 months prior as they did in the 18 months that followed. Boat duty was never safe all that.
Fact , He jumped off his boat in violation of all rules of leadership ran over and shot a wounded soldier.
Which rule is that?
Fact. 3 band-aid wounds and he was home.
If put in the same situation, so would I.
Didn't I just hear last week that the President's former CO remembered Bush asking about going to Vietnam, and the CO told him he couldn't because the war was winding down and the airplane he was trained to fly was either being, or had been, phased out of combat duty?
Let me guess, the future President knew he wouldn't have to go, because his plane had been replaced, but figured he better ask, because he knew he'd eventually have to face Kerry in an election, and Kerry had just come back with three PHs?
From the site veteransagainstkerry.org:
"After graduating from Yale, Kerry applied for a draft deferment for one year (a common way of avoiding service), but it was denied. Hence he joined the United States Navy. He served as an Electrical Officer on the USS Gridley."
This took me exactly 45 seconds to find...
If you are so sure all of Kerry's actions related to Vietnam were on the up-and-up, can you explain why he refuses to release his medical records or all of his military records?
Yes, that's true, however, GWB flew F-102's, which were an Air Defense fighter and were not used in Vietnam.
So how long do you think it would take to find a site that's not anti-Kerry with an entirely different take on it?
The lack of posting his deferment denial does not demonstrate that the denial didn't ocurr - it did. Don't see anything about his first injury being self inlicted at this site either. They must have just forgotten...
The point still stands. It is not a criticism of Kerry to note that he joined he Navy after his deferment was denied. It's just not praisworthy.
All the rest of your post is irrelevant to that point - in a sense it doesn't follow...
"John Kerry came from a privileged background and could have avoided it, too. Instead he said, 'Send me.' "
Right before he said, 'Send me home.'
I don't know when Bush started serving, but Edwards was born in '53, and drew a high number.
You can't blame a guy if he didn't get called up. That's nitpicking as much as squabbling whether Bush's service was really serving.
Absolutely
They started withdrawing troops in '69. Yes, they were still drafting as well. My older brother was born in '56, and like yourself when that time approached there was certainly the thought that he might have to go.
This site that you reference could be used by a writing class in how to inject slant into one's reporting,
It presents all the talking points for Bush's actions regarding military service, while conveniently glossing over similar points for Kerry.
@@@
PS: My father "volunteered" to join the Navy in 1944, when the draft was extended to fathers of three children. He spent a lot more time in the Pacific than Kerry did.
I am waiting for the DNC! or someone else to reveal how Kerry fulfilled his requirement to active duty, while he was attending VVAW meetings. Do you have any background on that?
Harvard Crimson, Feb 18, 1970.
Kerry himself revealed in an interview that his application for 1 year deferment (to study in Paris) was turned down.
Do you read any of the posts that you respond to - or for that matter what you respond with?
I was responding to a speech that stated Kerry was superior to his opponent, since he had served when others didn't. That speech, I might note, violates the rule that you state above, that we should not "attempt to build up or tear down the man based on his military service "...see?
I responded by noting that Kerry had also tried to avoid service through deferrment and that there was nothing particularly praiseworthy or dishonerable about joining up after your deferrments had run out.
You responded by naming several Republicans that had recieved deferrments and essentially accusing me of telling a fib about Kerry
I documented that Kerry had in fact been denied a final post graduation deferrment - the first of several sites documenting this was found in 45 seconds.
I noted that this still was not a criticism of Kerry, just not praiseworthy
You responded by finding a bash-Bush site that did not mention Kerry's deferrment as proof that the deferrment did not take place.
Since the site also failed to mention
I then reiterated that there was nothing dishonorable about a man joining the navy after being denied a deferrment, that this was simply not a particularly praisworthy reason for joining. I NEVER bashed Kerry for this.
NOTHING that you have posted has ever really addressed the point I made about the speech, indicateing to me that:
Why am I not surprised that he wanted to study in France...
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