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Fact, Fable, and Darwin (If you haven't read this already, you should!!!)
American Enterprise Magazine ^ | 8/04 | Rodney Stark

Posted on 08/02/2004 3:58:04 PM PDT by Renfield

Fact, Fable, and Darwin By Rodney Stark

I write as neither a creationist nor a Darwinist, but as one who knows what is probably the most disreputable scientific secret of the past century: There is no plausible scientific theory of the origin of species! Darwin himself was not sure he had produced one, and for many decades every competent evolutionary biologist has known that he did not. Although the experts have kept quiet when true believers have sworn in court and before legislative bodies that Darwin's theory is proven beyond any possible doubt, that's not what reputable biologists, including committed Darwinians, have been saying to one another.

Without question, Charles Darwin would be among the most prominent biologists in history even if he hadn't written The Origin of Species in 1859. But he would not have been deified in the campaign to "enlighten" humanity. The battle over evolution is not an example of how heroic scientists have withstood the relentless persecution of religious fanatics. Rather, from the very start it primarily has been an attack on religion by militant atheists who wrap themselves in the mantle of science.

When a thoroughly ideological Darwinist like Richard Dawkins claims, "The theory is about as much in doubt as that the earth goes round the sun," he does not state a fact, but merely aims to discredit a priori anyone who dares to express reservations about evolution. Indeed, Dawkins has written, "It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane...."

That is precisely how "Darwin's Bulldog," Thomas Huxley, hoped intellectuals would react when he first adopted the tactic of claiming that the only choice is between Darwin and Bible literalism. However, just as one can doubt Max Weber's Protestant Ethic thesis without thereby declaring for Marxism, so too one may note the serious shortcomings of neo-Darwinism without opting for any rival theory. Modern physics provides a model of how science benefits from being willing to live with open questions rather than embracing obviously flawed conjectures.

What is most clear to me is that the Darwinian Crusade does not prove some basic incompatibility between religion and science. But the even more immediate reality is that Darwin's theory falls noticeably short of explaining the origin of species. Dawkins knows the many serious problems that beset a purely materialistic evolutionary theory, but asserts that no one except true believers in evolution can be allowed into the discussion, which also must be held in secret. Thus he chastises Niles Eldridge and Stephen Jay Gould, two distinguished fellow Darwinians, for giving "spurious aid and comfort to modern creationists."

Dawkins believes that, regardless of his or her good intentions, "if a reputable scholar breathes so much as a hint of criticism of some detail of Darwinian theory, that fact is seized upon and blown up out of proportion." While acknowledging that "the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record" is a major embarrassment for Darwinism, Stephen Jay Gould confided that this has been held as a "trade secret of paleontology" and acknowledged that the evolutionary diagrams "that adorn our textbooks" are based on "inference...not the evidence of fossils."

According to Steven Stanley, another distinguished evolutionist, doubts raised by the fossil record were "suppressed" for years. Stanley noted that this too was a tactic begun by Huxley, always careful not to reveal his own serious misgivings in public. Paleontologist Niles Eldridge and his colleagues have said that the history of life demonstrates gradual transformations of species, "all the while really knowing that it does not." This is not how science is conducted; it is how ideological crusades are run.

By Darwin's day it had long been recognized that the fossil evidence showed that there had been a progression in the biological complexity of organisms over an immense period of time. In the oldest strata, only simple organisms are observed. In more recent strata, more complex organisms appear. The biological world is now classified into a set of nested categories. Within each genus (mammals, reptiles, etc.) are species (dogs, horses, elephants, etc.) and within each species are many specific varieties, or breeds (Great Dane, Poodle, Beagle, etc.).

It was well-known that selective breeding can create variations within species. But the boundaries between species are distinct and firm--one species does not simply trail off into another by degrees. As Darwin acknowledged, breeding experiments reveal clear limits to selective breeding beyond which no additional changes can be produced. For example, dogs can be bred to be only so big and no bigger, let alone be selectively bred until they are cats. Hence, the question of where species come from was the real challenge and, despite the title of his famous book and more than a century of hoopla and celebration, Darwin essentially left it unanswered.

After many years spent searching for an adequate explanation of the origin of species, in the end Darwin fell back on natural selection, claiming that it could create new creatures too, if given im-mense periods of time. That is, organisms respond to their environmental circumstances by slowly changing (evolving) in the direction of traits beneficial to survival until, eventually, they are sufficiently changed to constitute a new species. Hence, new species originate very slowly, one tiny change after another, and eventually this can result in lemurs changing to humans via many intervening species.

Darwin fully recognized that a major weakness of this account of the origin of species involved what he and others referred to as the principle of "gradualism in nature." The fossil record was utterly inconsistent with gradualism. As Darwin acknowledged: "...why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?"

Darwin offered two solutions. Transitional types are quickly replaced and hence would mainly only be observable in the fossil record. As for the lack of transitional types among the fossils, that was, Darwin admitted, "the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory."

Darwin dealt with this problem by blaming "the extreme imperfection of the geological record." "Only a small portion of the surface of the earth has been geologically explored, and no part with sufficient care." But, just wait, Darwin promised, the missing transitions will be found in the expected proportion when more research has been done. Thus began an intensive search for what the popular press soon called the "missing links."

Today, the fossil record is enormous compared to what it was in Darwin's day, but the facts are unchanged. The links are still missing; species appear suddenly and then remain relatively unchanged. As Steven Stanley reported: "The known fossil record...offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid."

Indeed, the evidence has grown even more contrary since Darwin's day. "Many of the discontinuities [in the fossil record] tend to be more and more emphasized with increased collecting," noted the former curator of historical geology at the American Museum of Natural History. The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism, Stephen Jay Gould has acknowledged. The first problem is stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear. The second problem is sudden appearance. Species do not arise gradually by the steady transformation of ancestors, they appear "fully formed."

These are precisely the objections raised by many biologists and geologists in Darwin's time--it was not merely that Darwin's claim that species arise through eons of natural selection was offered without supporting evidence, but that the available evidence was overwhelmingly contrary. Unfortunately, rather than concluding that a theory of the origin of species was yet to be accomplished, many scientists urged that Darwin's claims must be embraced, no matter what.

In keeping with Darwin's views, evolutionists have often explained new species as the result of the accumulation of tiny, favorable random mutations over an immense span of time. But this answer is inconsistent with the fossil record wherein creatures appear "full-blown and raring to go." Consequently, for most of the past century, biologists and geneticists have tried to discover how a huge number of favorable mutations can occur at one time so that a new species would appear without intermediate types.

However, as the eminent and committed Darwinist Ernst Mayr explained,The occurrence of genetic monstrosities by mutation...is well substantiated, but they are such evident freaks that these monsters can only be designated as 'hopeless.' They are so utterly unbalanced that they would not have the slightest chance of escaping elimination through selection. Giving a thrush the wings of a falcon does not make it a better flyer....To believe that such a drastic mutation would produce a viable new type, capable of occupying a new adaptive zone, is equivalent to believing in miracles.

The word miracle crops up again and again in mathematical assessments of the possibility that even very simple biochemical chains, let alone living organisms, can mutate into being by a process of random trial and error. For generations, Darwinians have regaled their students with the story of the monkey and the typewriter, noting that given an infinite period of time, the monkey sooner or later is bound to produce Macbeth purely by chance, the moral being that infinite time can perform miracles.

However, the monkey of random evolution does not have infinite time. The progression from simple to complex life forms on earth took place within a quite limited time. Moreover, when competent mathematicians considered the matter, they quickly calculated that even if the monkey's task were reduced to coming up with only a few lines of Macbeth, let alone Shakespeare's entire play, the probability is far, far beyond mathematical possibility. The odds of creating even the simplest organism at random are even more remote--Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe, celebrated cosmologists, calculated the odds as one in ten to the 40,000th power. (Consider that all atoms in the known universe are estimated to number no more than ten to the 80th power.) In this sense, then, Darwinian theory does rest on truly miraculous assumptions.

Perhaps the most amazing aspect of the current situation is that while Darwin is treated as a secular saint in the popular media and the theory of evolution is regarded as the invincible challenge to all religious claims, it is taken for granted among the leading biological scientists that the origin of species has yet to be explained. Writing in Nature in 1999, Eörs Szathmay summarizes that, "The origin of species has long fascinated biologists. Although Darwin's major work bears it as a title, it does not provide a solution to the problem." When Julian Huxley claimed that "Darwin's theory is...no longer a theory but a fact," he surely knew better. But, just like his grandfather, Thomas Huxley, he knew that his lie served the greater good of "enlightenment."

When The Origin of Species was published it aroused immense interest, but initially it did not provoke antagonism on religious grounds. Although many criticized Darwin's lack of evidence, none raised religious objections. Instead, the initial response from theologians was favorable. The distinguished Harvard botanist Asa Gray hailed Darwin for having solved the most difficult problem confronting the Design argument--the many imperfections and failures revealed in the fossil record. Acknowledging that Darwin himself "rejects the idea of design," Gray congratulated him for "bringing out the neatest illustrations of it." Gray interpreted Darwin's work as showing that God has created a few original forms and then let evolution proceed within the framework of divine laws.

When religious antagonism finally came it was in response to aggressive claims, like Huxley's, that Newton and Darwin together had evicted God from the cosmos. For the heirs of the Enlightenment, evolution seemed finally to supply the weapon needed to destroy religion. As Richard Dawkins confided, "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist."

Atheism was central to the agenda of the Darwinians. Darwin himself once wrote that he could not understand how anyone could even wish that Christianity were true, noting that the doctrine of damnation was itself damnable. Huxley expressed his hostility toward religion often and clearly, writing in 1859: "My screed was meant as a protest against Theology & Parsondom...both of which are in my mind the natural & irreconcilable enemies of Science. Few see it but I believe we are on the Eve of a new Reformation and if I have a wish to live 30 years, it is to see the foot of Science on the necks of her Enemies." According to Oxford historian J. R. Lucas, Huxley was "remarkably resistant to the idea that there were clergymen who accepted evolution, even when actually faced with them." Quite simply, there could be no compromises with faith.

Writing at the same time as Huxley, the leading Darwinian in Germany, Ernst Haeckel, drew this picture:

On one side spiritual freedom and truth, reason and culture, evolution and progress stand under the bright banner of science; on the other side, under the black flag of hierarchy, stand spiritual slavery and falsehood, irrationality and barbarism, superstition and retrogression.... Evolution is the heavy artillery in the struggle for truth. Whole ranks of...sophistries fall together under the chain shot of this...artillery, and the proud and mighty structure of the Roman hierarchy, that powerful stronghold of infallible dogmatism, falls like a house of cards.

These were not the natterings of radical circles and peripheral publications. The author of the huge review of The Origin in the Times of London was none other than Thomas Huxley. He built his lectures on evolution into a popular touring stage show wherein he challenged various potential religious opponents by name. Is it surprising that religious people, scientists as well as clerics, began to respond in the face of unrelenting challenges like these issued in the name of evolution? It was not as if they merely were asked to accept that life had evolved--many theologians had long taken that for granted. What the Darwinians demanded was that religionists agree to the untrue and unscientific claim that Darwin had proved that God played no role in the process.

Among those drawn to respond was the Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, who is widely said to have made an ass of himself in a debate with Huxley during the 1860 meeting of the British Association at Oxford. The relevant account of this confrontation reported: "I was happy enough to be present on the memorable occasion at Oxford when Mr. Huxley bearded Bishop Wilberforce. The bishop arose and in a light scoffing tone, florid and fluent, he assured us that there was nothing in the idea of evolution. Then turning to his antagonist with a smiling insolence, he begged to know, was it through his grandfather or his grandmother that he claimed descent from a monkey? On this Mr. Huxley...arose...and spoke these tremendous words. He was not ashamed to have a monkey for an ancestor; but he would be ashamed to be connected with a man who used his great gifts to obscure the truth. No one doubted his meaning and the effect was tremendous."

This marvelous anecdote has appeared in every distinguished biography of Darwin and of Huxley, as well as in every popular history of the theory of evolution. In his celebrated Apes, Angels and Victorians, William Irvine used this tale to disparage the bishop's snobbery. In his prize-winning study, James Brix went much farther, describing Wilberforce as "naive and pompous," a man whose "faulty opinions" were those of a "fundamentalist creationist" and who provided Huxley with the opportunity to give evolution "its first major victory over dogmatism and duplicity." Every writer tells how the audience gave Huxley an ovation.

Trouble is, it never happened. The quotation above was the only such report of this story and it appeared in an article titled "A Grandmother's Tales" written by a non-scholar in a popular magazine 38 years after the alleged encounter. No other account of these meetings, and there were many written at the time, made any mention of remarks concerning Huxley's monkey ancestors, or claimed that he made a fool of the bishop. To the contrary, many thought the bishop had the better of it, and even many of the committed Darwinians thought it at most a draw.

Moreover, as all of the scholars present at Oxford knew, prior to the meeting, Bishop Wilberforce had penned a review of The Origin in which he fully acknowledged the principle of natural selection as the source of variations within species. He rejected Darwin's claims concerning the origin of species, however, and some of these criticisms were sufficiently compelling that Darwin immediately wrote his friend the botanist J. D. Hooker that the article "is uncommonly clever; it picks out with skill all the most conjectural parts, and brings forward well all the difficulties. It quizzes me quite splendidly." In a subsequent letter to geologist Charles Lyell, Darwin acknowledges that "the bishop makes a very telling case against me." Indeed, several of Wilberforce's comments caused Darwin to make modifications in a later revision of the book.

The tale of the foolish and narrow-minded bishop seems to have thrived as a revealing "truth" about the incompatibility of religion and science simply because many of its tellers wanted to believe that a bishop is wrong by nature. J. R. Lucas, who debunked the bishop myth, has suggested that the "most important reason why the legend grew" is, first, because academics generally "know nothing outside their own special subject" and therefore easily believe that outsiders are necessarily ignorant, and, second, because Huxley encouraged that conclusion. "The quarrel between religion and science was what Huxley wanted; and as Darwin's theory gained supporters, they took over his view of the incident."

Since then the Darwinian Crusade has tried to focus all attention on the most unqualified and most vulnerable opponents, and when no easy targets present themselves it has invented them. Huxley "made straw men of the 'creationists,'" as his biographer Desmond admitted. Even today it is a rare textbook or any popular treatment of evolution and religion that does not reduce "creationism" to the simplest caricatures.

This tradition remains so potent that whenever it is asked that evolution be presented as "only a theory," the requester is ridiculed as a buffoon. Even when the great philosopher of science Karl Popper suggested that the standard version of evolution even falls short of being a scientific theory, being instead an untestable tautology, he was subjected to public condemnations and much personal abuse.

Popper's tribulations illustrate an important basis for the victory of Darwinism: A successful appeal for a united front on the part of scientists to oppose religious opposition has had the consequence of silencing dissent within the scientific community. The eminent observer Everett Olson notes that there is "a generally silent group" of biological scientists "who tend to disagree with much of the current thought" about evolution, but who remain silent for fear of censure.

I believe that one day there will be a plausible theory of the origin of species. But, if and when that occurs, there will be nothing in any such theory that makes it impossible to propose that the principles involved were not part of God's great design any more than such a theory will demonstrate the existence of God. But, while we wait, why not lift the requirement that high school texts enshrine Darwin's failed attempt as an eternal truth?

Rodney Stark was professor of sociology at the University of Washington for many years and is now university professor of the social sciences at Baylor University. He is author of For the Glory of God (Princeton University Press) and other acclaimed books on science and religion.

The Miracle of Creation

Freeman Dyson, professor emeritus at Princeton’s Institute for Advanced Study, is a preeminent mathematical physicist, and one of the most wide-ranging thinkers and writers in modern science. These observations are drawn from interviews with Monte Davis and Stewart Brand.

QUESTION: How do we understand the universe at all? Do you agree with Carl Sagan that humans find the mathematics of gravitation so simple and elegant because natural selection eliminated the apes who couldn’t understand?

DYSON: Not at all. For apes to come out of the trees, and change in the direction of being able to write down Maxwell’s equations, I don’t think you can explain that by natural selection at all. It’s just a miracle.

QUESTION: You have written that “as we look out into the universe and identify the many accidents of physics and astronomy that have worked together to our benefit, it almost seems as if the universe must in some sense have known that we were coming.” Is that a playful suggestion?

DYSON: It’s not playful at all.

QUESTION: Then we seem to be talking about sentiments that most people would consider religious. Are they religious for you?

DYSON: Oh yes.

QUESTION: The dominant tendency in modern science has been to assert that we occupy no privileged place, that the universe does not care, that science and religion don’t mix. Where do you fit into those ideas?

DYSON: The tendency you’re talking about is a modern one, not old. I think it became almost a dogma only with the fight for acceptance of Darwinism, Huxley versus Bishop Wilberforce, and so on. Before the nineteenth century, scientists were not ashamed of being religious, but since Darwin, it’s been taboo.

The biologists are still fighting Wilberforce. If you look now, the view that everything is due to chance and to little bits of molecular clockwork is mostly propounded by biologists, particularly people like Jacques Monod—whereas the physicists have become far more skeptical about that. If you actually look at the way modern physics is going, it’s very far from that. Yes, it’s the biologists who’ve made it so hard to talk about these things.

I was reading recently a magnificent book by Thomas Wright, written about 1750, when these inhibitions didn’t exist at all. Wright was the discoverer of galaxies, you know, and he writes:

“I can never look upon the stars without wondering that the whole world does not become astronomers; and that men, endowed with sense and reason, should neglect a science that must convince them of their immortality.”

QUESTION: There’s a provocative sentence in your book Imagined Worlds: “The laws of nature are constructed in such a way as to make the universe as interesting as possible.” What do you mean by that?

DYSON: It’s the numerical accidents that make life possible. I define an interesting universe as one that is friendly to life, and especially one that produces lots of variety.

QUESTION: What accidental numbers make that possible?

DYSON: If you look at just the physical building blocks, there’s a famous problem with producing carbon in stars. All the carbon necessary for life has to be produced in stars, and it’s difficult to do. To make carbon, you’ve got to have three helium atoms collide in a triple collision. Helium has an atomic weight of 4, and carbon is 12. Beryllium, at 8, is unstable, therefore you can’t go from helium to beryllium to carbon; you have to make helium into carbon in one jump. This means three atoms colliding together.

QUESTION: Which statistically is not so often.

DYSON: No. But Fred Hoyle, who discovered this process, came up with one of the most brilliant ideas in the whole of science. He said that in order to make carbon abundant as it should be, there must be an accidental, coincidental resonance. This means that there’s a nuclear state in the carbon nucleus at precisely the right energy level for these three atoms to combine smoothly. The chance of having that resonance in the right place is maybe 1 in 1,000. Hoyle believed it must be there in order to produce the carbon. Of course, the nuclear physicists then looked for this resonance, and found it!

There are other famous cases: The fact that the nuclear force is just strong enough to bind a proton and a neutron to make the heavy isotope hydrogen, but not strong enough to bind two protons to make helium with an atomic weight of 2. Just two protons stuck together is a rather narrow range of strength. So the nuclear force is fine-tuned so that hydrogen doesn’t burn to helium right away. If the two hydrogen nuclei did bind, all the hydrogen would burn to helium in the first five minutes. The universe would then be pure helium and a rather boring place. Whereas, if the force were a little bit weaker, so that the neutron and the proton didn’t bind, you wouldn’t get any heavy elements at all. You’d have nothing but hydrogen. Again, this would make for a boring universe.

Published in One America September 2004


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; darwin; evolution; huxley; wilberforce
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This issue has been gnawing at me for years. I intuitively realized the inadequacy of the theory of Natural Selection in explaining the miracle of creation, but I could not communicate as eloquently as Mr. Stark. This is an elegant article.
1 posted on 08/02/2004 3:58:06 PM PDT by Renfield
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To: PatrickHenry

What a diaper-load. Anybody that uses the term "Darwinist" is by definition a Creationist.


2 posted on 08/02/2004 4:00:35 PM PDT by balrog666 (A public service post.)
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To: balrog666
What a diaper-load. Anybody that uses the term "Darwinist" is by definition a Creationist.

Thank you for your insightful comment. I can't see how anyone could possible argue against your pure logic.

3 posted on 08/02/2004 4:04:25 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: Renfield

mark for later


4 posted on 08/02/2004 4:05:58 PM PDT by RobFromGa (Kerry/Edwards: Hating America One Vote at a Time)
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To: Renfield
www.caseforacreator.com
5 posted on 08/02/2004 4:08:50 PM PDT by perfect stranger
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To: Renfield

.


6 posted on 08/02/2004 4:11:58 PM PDT by dubyagee (Just ranting to myself...pay no mind.)
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To: balrog666; PatrickHenry; My2Cents
What a diaper-load. Anybody that uses the term "Darwinist" is by definition a Creationist.

You overlook signator 2 of Creationist Weasel Detection: not capitalisiing Creationist.

Fact, Fable, and Darwin By Rodney Stark

I write as neither a creationist nor a Darwinist

7 posted on 08/02/2004 4:21:44 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy ("Despise not the jester. Often he is the only one speaking the truth")
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To: Renfield

There is a reason we still call it a theory after all these years. The evidence is still pretty cluttered and when you get down to the basics of biology and chemistry the beginning seems statistically impossible. Not just unlikely but impossible.

One of the things I find curious is that for natural selection to work at the present time both nucleic acids and proteins must be present. Theoretically, they must have 'evolved' at the same time since they function interdependently, not independently.


8 posted on 08/02/2004 4:24:24 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: My2Cents
I can't see how anyone could possible argue against your pure logic.

The people on FreeRepublic who defend Evolution seem to principally argue from an Ad Hominen stance. Get used to it. Sigh.

9 posted on 08/02/2004 4:27:01 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The Fourth Estate is a Fifth Column)
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To: Renfield
Rather, from the very start it primarily has been an attack on religion by militant atheists who wrap themselves in the mantle of science.

These so-called "crevo" threads serve as a perfect example of the extra-scientific nature of the "debate".

10 posted on 08/02/2004 4:27:43 PM PDT by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: My2Cents

Well, what he means is the whole concept of "Darwinist" and Darwin as the leader of some sort of religion or cult, and "The Origin of Species" as some sort of Bible, is a fictional strawman created by the Creationists.

Really Darwin and "The Origin of Species" while certainly respected, isn't that big of a deal; most evolutionists are too busy out in the field doing practical work digging up fossils or studying flora and fauna; they aren't sitting around re-reading Origin of Species for the 100th time.


11 posted on 08/02/2004 4:28:25 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: balrog666; Junior; Lurking Libertarian

Thanks for the ping. Pure creationist thread, so I won't ping the evo list. However, it's tagged "crevolist" for the archives. If things should heat up and require the ping list, let me know. Otherwise, I think this thread probably belongs on the religion forum.


12 posted on 08/02/2004 4:28:52 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Since 28 Oct 1999, #26,303, over 193 threads posted, and somehow never suspended.)
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To: My2Cents

Thank you for your insightful comment. I can't see how anyone could possible argue against your pure logic.

Methinks balrog666 is a Vulcan incognito.


13 posted on 08/02/2004 4:29:01 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rearview mirror.)
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To: siunevada
There is a reason we still call it a theory after all these years.

And there's a reason why Relativity is still called "The Theory of Relativity" though it's been experimentally proven and has a wide variety of practical uses in science.

The basic problem is the scientific definition of "theory" has little resemblance to the misunderstanding of the definition of "theory" to the scientifically illiterate public.

What the average Creationist thinks the definition of "theory" is, a scientist would call a "hypothesis" not a theory.

14 posted on 08/02/2004 4:30:25 PM PDT by Strategerist
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To: Oztrich Boy

Man is not smart enough to understand, completely, God world.


15 posted on 08/02/2004 4:30:44 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider (KERRY LIED)
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To: Renfield

Why couldn't God have created the Big Bang, as well as evolution? This "either or" logic doesn't hold water, specially for those who believe in a non-denominational God.

I guess it is harder for bibiophiles, as well as koranophiles, since Big Bang and evolution negate their point of view. But, in my view, it only serves to reinforce my belief in God. Who/what other force could have come up with something so fantastic?


16 posted on 08/02/2004 4:38:36 PM PDT by razoroccam (read Germs of War to know the real Armageddon)
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To: Renfield

Why couldn't God have created the Big Bang, as well as evolution? This "either or" logic doesn't hold water, specially for those who believe in a non-denominational God.

I guess it is harder for bibliophiles, as well as koranophiles, since Big Bang and evolution negate their point of view. But, in my view, it only serves to reinforce my belief in God. Who/what other force could have come up with something so fantastic?


17 posted on 08/02/2004 4:38:49 PM PDT by razoroccam (read Germs of War to know the real Armageddon)
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To: Renfield

I've long been an admirer of Fred Hoyle. And I don't believe that Fred would declare the atomic weight of hydrogen to be 4, when it is 1.00797.

The atomic weight of helium is 4. Someone mixed these up. And the mixup does present difficulties to the creation of carbon thesis contained therein.

That said, I've bookmarked this for further study because it does have some interesting points.


18 posted on 08/02/2004 4:41:36 PM PDT by Ole Okie (Where's Wilson and Berger on JF'n Kerry's web site?)
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To: Renfield
Without question, Charles Darwin would be among the most prominent biologists in history even if he hadn't written The Origin of Species in 1859. But he would not have been deified in the campaign to "enlighten" humanity. The battle over evolution is not an example of how heroic scientists have withstood the relentless persecution of religious fanatics. Rather, from the very start it primarily has been an attack on religion by militant atheists who wrap themselves in the mantle of science.

This is eloquent? This is ignorance. Darwin spent no time advocating atheism. He cited and tied together the already voluminous evidence known in his day, presenting the inescapable conclusion that the organisms of Earth are related by common descent and have varied from each other by the operation of variation and natural selection.

This favorable evidence has only exploded in volume since the 19th century. To try to refute the theory by the logical fallacy of arguing from motive (while citing no evidence even for said motive) is ridiculous.

19 posted on 08/02/2004 4:43:04 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Viet-Boat-Rider
Your point being?

Mine is: "I write as neither a creationist nor a Darwinist" is as transparent as "I write as neither a follower of Jesus or Mohammed (Peace be upon him)"

20 posted on 08/02/2004 4:45:08 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy ("Despise not the jester. Often he is the only one speaking the truth")
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To: Strategerist
I think evolution is something of a cult. It requires a leap of faith to accept it. No one can drag the theory into the lab and submit it to the scientific method to prove it's validity. This isn't so much a criticism, as a statement of fact. But the "Darwinists" take it as a criticism. It's plain that Darwin's theory of the rise of species has been used by many for over a hundred years to attack belief in the Bible. When used for this purpose, evolution ceases to be an explanation of origins, and becomes a soapbox in a war of religious viewpoints.

My opinion about evolution is that it is the best explanation that man has been able to come up with to explain the origin of species, without God.

21 posted on 08/02/2004 4:51:10 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: Tax-chick

later


22 posted on 08/02/2004 4:51:23 PM PDT by Tax-chick (You just can't mistake a St. Bernard for a pot-bellied pig.)
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To: siunevada

BTW, I love to sit back and watch the paleontologists duke it out with the mircobiologists over various unproveable assumptions of evolution.


23 posted on 08/02/2004 4:53:59 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: My2Cents
No one can drag the theory into the lab and submit it to the scientific method to prove it's validity.

It's been done, many times.

24 posted on 08/02/2004 4:57:54 PM PDT by narby (Democrat = Internationalist ... Republican = American)
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To: siunevada
There is a reason we still call it a theory after all these years.

They still have classes in "music theory" too. You going to propose that there is no such thing as "music".

25 posted on 08/02/2004 4:59:03 PM PDT by narby (Democrat = Internationalist ... Republican = American)
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To: Strategerist
"When a thoroughly ideological Darwinist like Richard Dawkins claims, "The theory is about as much in doubt as that the earth goes round the sun," he does not state a fact, but merely aims to discredit a priori anyone who dares to express reservations about evolution."

The article's author's aspersions aside, do you not consider statements such as this, by Dawkins to be reckless?

26 posted on 08/02/2004 5:03:07 PM PDT by Tench_Coxe
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To: Elsie; AndrewC; jennyp; lockeliberty; RadioAstronomer; LiteKeeper; Fester Chugabrew; ...

Pingist!


27 posted on 08/02/2004 5:03:11 PM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: razoroccam
Why couldn't God have created the Big Bang, as well as evolution?

A fair question. One might also ask, "Why would God want to cause the Big Bang and evolution?" Since the Bible tells us that God's greatest interest is in the relationship He has with the people on this planet, why would He create a process in which He had to sit around for a few billion years while He watched the slime mold turned into humanity? It seems pointless. As God, He can do what He wants, but the slow, ruthless process of evolution to enable "life" to give rise to a species He could relate to, reveal Himself to, and ultimately to redeem, seems a waste of valuable resources.

Secondly, if God created everything in a bang, followed by billions of years of evolutionary change, then He lied to us in the early chapters of Genesis. A common theory is that the creation story of Gen. 1-2, up through the story of Noah and the flood, are myth, and that real history picks up when Abram comes on the scene. But where does the book of Genesis indicate that myth ends, and real history begins? The Bible doesn't give us the luxury of that convenient dismissal of the first chapters of Genesis.

28 posted on 08/02/2004 5:03:49 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: Strategerist
"What the average Creationist thinks the definition of "theory" is, a scientist would call a "hypothesis" not a theory."

Very true. And what certain evolution folks tout as scientific 'fact' is what a scientist would call a theory.

29 posted on 08/02/2004 5:04:58 PM PDT by Tench_Coxe
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To: narby

Someone has observed the rise of a new specie in the lab? Funny, I missed that bit of news.


30 posted on 08/02/2004 5:05:00 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: bondserv

"Modern physics provides a model of how science benefits from being willing to live with open questions rather than embracing obviously flawed conjectures."

I like that!


31 posted on 08/02/2004 5:05:16 PM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: Tench_Coxe
do you not consider statements such as this, by Dawkins to be reckless?

I don't know if "reckless" is the right term. "Desperate" may be more like it. He can't prove to anyone's satisfaction the fact of evolution, so Dawkins resorts to insult as his main weapon of debate.

32 posted on 08/02/2004 5:06:59 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: bondserv

That's a good one. I consider it the height of arrogance that some cannot accept that fact that some things in this universe cannot be explained, and that faith is ultimately the best way to understand those mysteries.


33 posted on 08/02/2004 5:08:50 PM PDT by My2Cents (http://www.conservativesforbush.com)
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To: My2Cents; narby
Someone has observed the rise of a new specie in the lab? Funny, I missed that bit of news.

Happens all the time. Whenever a new coin is issued, they do test mintings first.

34 posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:52 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy ("Despise not the jester. Often he is the only one speaking the truth")
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To: razoroccam

It boggles the human mind, to ponder anything like the Big Bang.

I have been privileged to spend most of my adult life working outdoors in isolated rural areas. Anyone who has ever seen a luna moth (or any one of a million other spectacular creatures) cannot question the authority of a divine Creator, unless he is an enervated blockhead.

There was a flock of wild turkeys foraging in one of the fields next to our house this morning. I watched them for a while before driving to work. I refuse to believe that turkeys are accidental, random occurences. Or that I am.

I am sipping a delightful Pinot Noir, with deep, charactful flavor. Is this not proof that God loves me, and wants me to be happy? Why would he reveal to me orchids, clouds, flying fish, and the love of my beautiful wife, if not to illustrate his divine majesty?

It is a sorry man who does not view God in everything he sees.


35 posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:52 PM PDT by Renfield (Philosophy chair at the University of Wallamalloo!!)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Excuse me, but a creationist started the ad hominems with this article. The first few paragraphs call those who won't subscribe to creationism liars, ideologues, militant Atheists, haters of religion and crusaders.


36 posted on 08/02/2004 5:17:01 PM PDT by sumocide
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To: Renfield

Great article. I especially liked the quote:
"It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane...."
Condescension worthy of a Kerry liberal.


37 posted on 08/02/2004 5:19:43 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: balrog666
What a diaper-load.

Such brilliant analysis could only come from somebody clinging to a fairy tale called EVOLUTION.

38 posted on 08/02/2004 5:22:19 PM PDT by GLDNGUN (.)
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To: My2Cents
Someone has observed the rise of a new specie [sic] in the lab? Funny, I missed that bit of news.

You haven't been watching, have you?
Parting Genomes: UA Biologists Discover Seeds of Speciation [Happening as they observe!].
Changing One Gene Launches New Fly Species.

39 posted on 08/02/2004 5:27:34 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Since 28 Oct 1999, #26,303, over 193 threads posted, and somehow never suspended.)
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To: razoroccam
This "either or" logic doesn't hold water

The Creation story tells us that on one day God created plants, and the next day he set the sun in the sky to provide light. I'm sure you'll tell us how plants requiring photosynthesis to live can last for eons in pitch darkness.. They don't. Even the hardiest plants begin to wilt in a matter of days - not months or years - let alone eons.

Evolution creates more problems than it solves and it blasphemes God in the doing. Relegating the rise of mankind to an accident in nature instead of making it a direct and willful act of God. Theorizing attempts to gloss this over and make it seem acceptable amongst liberals who have more ability to be duped by philosophy than they have faith in God. That speaks ill of those people, not the evolutionists. Evolution has come along like the snake in the garden and has said 'God didn't really say that. He knows that if you do x you'll be as a god yourself...' It makes God's word a lie on it's face and those pretending at Christianity in some part haven't the sense to recognize blasphemy as the same groups largely have surrendered faith in God to philosophy and reason to begin with.

40 posted on 08/02/2004 5:30:12 PM PDT by Havoc (.)
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To: VadeRetro
Without question, Charles Darwin would be among the most prominent biologists in history even if he hadn't written The Origin of Species in 1859. But he would not have been deified in the campaign to "enlighten" humanity. The battle over evolution is not an example of how heroic scientists have withstood the relentless persecution of religious fanatics. Rather, from the very start it primarily has been an attack on religion by militant atheists who wrap themselves in the mantle of science.

This is eloquent? This is ignorance. Darwin spent no time advocating atheism.

And just where does it say that Darwin was advocating atheism? I don't believe the "militant atheists" mentioned by the article were referring to Darwin himself.

So, your dismissal of the entire article based on the above paragraph is curious.

Also, I noticed that you didn't mention any of the "favorable evidence" that has "exploded in volume". Shall I just take your word for it?

41 posted on 08/02/2004 5:38:32 PM PDT by ProudGOP
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To: PatrickHenry
You haven't been watching, have you?

"...begin to become different species,"

Begin to become different species, or became a different species? Seems to me this is not what you claim. Take another look at what you are tauting.

42 posted on 08/02/2004 5:47:46 PM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: PatrickHenry
Of late your comments bring me a strange joy in reading.

Otherwise, I think this thread probably belongs on the religion forum.

There is a quite confidence to this line, which brings on a slow smile.

43 posted on 08/02/2004 5:54:20 PM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: Strategerist
What the average Creationist thinks the definition of "theory" is, a scientist would call a "hypothesis" not a theory.

I couldn't help but notice from the article that "the great philosopher of science Karl Popper suggested that the standard version of evolution even falls short of being a scientific theory, being instead an untestable tautology". Untestable tautology. He also called it a "metaphysical research programme" (Karl Popper, Unended Quest (Glasgow: Fontana, Collins. 1976), p.151).

44 posted on 08/02/2004 6:09:14 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: narby

"They still have classes in "music theory" too. You going to propose that there is no such thing as "music"."


I heard someone once refer to a political theory, all this political stuff going on must be a bad dream.


45 posted on 08/02/2004 6:24:25 PM PDT by RipSawyer ("Embed" Michael Moore with the 82nd airborne.)
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To: My2Cents

" why would He create a process in which He had to sit around for a few billion years while He watched the slime mold turned into humanity? It seems pointless. As God, He can do what He wants, but the slow, ruthless process of evolution to enable "life" to give rise to a species He could relate to, reveal Himself to, and ultimately to redeem, seems a waste of valuable resources."

Do you realize you are making no sense whatsoever? If God is God then he is outside of time and all other limitations. What could a "waste of valuable resources" mean in such a context?


46 posted on 08/02/2004 6:28:35 PM PDT by RipSawyer ("Embed" Michael Moore with the 82nd airborne.)
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: PatrickHenry
Worthy of noting this suberterfuge:

"Even when the great philosopher of science Karl Popper suggested that the standard version of evolution even falls short of being a scientific theory, being instead an untestable tautology, he was subjected to public condemnations and much personal abuse."

.... in which the author conspicuously fails to inform his readers that Popper subsequently reversed himself after realizing he was in error. His first opinion about natural selection was based upon what others had told him, not upon his own analysis. Popper's final opinion, which is the only one that counts, was that it DID meet the test of being scientific.

But we mustn't let facts stand in the way of a good anti-Evolution screed.

;-)

48 posted on 08/02/2004 6:35:29 PM PDT by longshadow
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: Renfield

I'll point out the "facts and fables" in this pap later tonight, but right now I have to run a few errands. Check back later.


50 posted on 08/02/2004 6:42:53 PM PDT by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
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