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Jamming for Jesus
Jerusalem Post ^ | July 29th, 2004 | Jenny Hazan

Posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:15 PM PDT by missyme

Though officially illegal, the capital's last Messianic Youth Ministry continues to recruit local Jewish teens

When Jerusalem-born Daniel Cohen was 15-years-old, he wanted to become a professional drummer. So when a friend told him about free drum lessons at The Jamm he went straight to the Russian Compound to check it out.

"At first, the people at The Jamm were really nice to me. They even started to teach me how to play the drums," says Cohen.

After two months of hanging out at the coffee bar/youth center, one of Cohen's newfound friends gave him a copy of the New Testament in Hebrew and began to initiate discussions on the subject of Christ. An additional two months passed before Cohen was invited to participate in a youth trip to the Sea of Galilee, where he could join other Jamm youth in a mikveh ceremony.

"He asked me if I knew what Baptism is," recalls Cohen, who is now 17. "He said it wasn't a Christian thing, but a Jewish thing for Jews who knew the 'right way.'"

"I was shocked," he continues. "I was born a Jew and I want to be a Jew and I am not interested in converting away from Judaism. It is horrible when you think you have friends and then you find out that they are actually your enemies."

Cohen isn't alone. The Jamm (Jerusalem Artists, Musicians and Media) Center has been trapping Jewish teens in its messianic web since it was established in 1998. With open mike nights on Wednesdays and Punk concerts on Thursdays, including free coffee, chai tea and snacks, the non-smoking, alcohol-free Jamm provides a clean and tempting atmosphere for Jerusalem youth.

In one of the organization's pamphlets, The Jamm describes itself as "the first and only Israeli Messianic Youth ministry center of its kind in Israel," the main goal of which is "to serve as a safe place for young people to find out about the mercies of the true and living God."

According to Aaron Rubin at Yad L'Achim (Hands to Our Brothers), a Jerusalem-based organization dedicated to helping Jewish brethren escape from the clutches of cults and missionaries, The Jamm is among 100 so-called Messianic Jewish movements across Israel, 20 congregations of which are headquartered in Jerusalem.

Rubin lists the Baptists, the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (PAOC) and Caspari near Ben Yehuda Street, where Christians from Norway offer literature and courses to augment the effectiveness of English, Russian, Hebrew and French-speaking missionaries, among the larger missionary communities in the capital city.

Although he estimates the total number of missionaries currently operating in the country at around 4,000, Rubin says their numbers have increased by 100 percent over the past decade and that they continue to grow at an even more rapid pace today.

"The number of congregations are growing," says Rubin, who attributes the boom to several factors: the successful conversion to Christianity of new immigrants from the Former Soviet Union and Ethiopia; an increased number of dissidents who reject the theology of their church in favor of establishing their own individually-run institutions; the circumvention of the Law of Return, which according to a Supreme Court ruling in September 1992 stipulates that "openly-professed belief in Jesus is enough to render a born-Jew a member of another religion and thereby not eligible under Israel's immigration law for automatic citizenship in the Jewish State"; and a general expansion of messianic activity.

Messianic Jews share a belief in the idea that Judaism is the source of Christianity. The New Testament (so-called New Covenant) represents a unified extension of the Old Testament. Main tenets include regarding God as a compound unity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and belief in Jesus' virgin birth, sinless life, atoning death, bodily resurrection and ascension to the right hand of God the Father. They await the personal, bodily return of Jesus and believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost - the former to everlasting life, the latter to everlasting judgment and condemnation. It is in this Christian philosophy that the objective of conversion and "soul-saving" originates.

According to Rubin, the most common point of confusion for Jews who are approached by Messianic Jews is their self-definition as Jews. "They say they are Jews, not Christians and that their beliefs have nothing to do with Christianity."

This approach is deceptive, explains Rubin, since one-quarter of Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel are led by Christian-educated leaders.

In addition to their deceiving self-description, initial methods to entice new congregants usually include putting up posters and websites and going to festivals and public places to distribute pamphlets and books bearing Jewish symbols.

The difference between The Jamm and other organizations of its kind is that currently, it is the only active missionary body whose target audience are minors.

"Some movements send their children to speak with Jewish children because it's more delicate," says Rubin, "but most Jewish missionaries try to stay away from kids because it is illegal."

Article 368 of the Israeli Penal Code awards a maximum six-month incarceration for attempting to convert minors under the age of 18. Article 174(A) prohibits the offering and receiving of material benefits as an inducement to conversion of anyone, including those above and below the age of 18. Anyone who gives material benefits in exchange for a commitment to change one's religion can be sentenced up to 5 years in prison and fined a maximum of NIS 50,000.

According to Yoram Sheftel, a Ramat Gan-based criminal lawyer who volunteers on behalf of Yad L'Achim, the problem is that both the prosecution and the law enforcement authorities do not enforce the law.

"They rarely enforce the laws pertaining to missionary crimes," says Sheftel, who estimates that only one or two cases are actually brought to court every year.

No legal precedent exists because both crimes are dealt with at the lowest level, the Magistrate's Court, with appeals going to the District Court.

"There is no practical chance that a case like this would make it to the Supreme Court," adds Sheftel, who in 2000 drafted a bill that to date has neither been accepted nor rejected by the Knesset, which would make any attempt to persuade anyone to change his religion an offense against the law. "As it stands, the issue is not a priority in the eyes of the Jerusalem Police and the prosecution. These cases, therefore, are generally neither investigated nor prosecuted."

Rivka Cohen, Daniel's mother, who conditioned her interview on the changing of both her and her son's names, testifies to that fact.

Once she found out what was really going on at The Jamm in April 2003, she filed a report with the Jerusalem Police, who closed the case about a month later. They reopened the file in December 2003 after she filed a letter of complaint to the minister of justice.

"I have not heard anything about it since the case was reopened eight months ago," says Rivka. "From the very beginning, the police didn't want to take me seriously."

Besides the testimony of her son and the publications he was given at The Jamm that included a copy of the New Testament, a workbook about Jesus, a CD with Christian songs and a copy of the coffee house's publication 'Youth Speak ' a collection of personal stories by Israeli youth who became 'believers' in the Messianic movement, her report consisted of a video depicting incriminating discussions between Jamm members, shot by 18-year-old Yossi Levinson, a volunteer for Yad L'Achim who went undercover to investigate the place.

"It was disgusting. The place is dedicated to making Israeli youth believe in Yeshua," says Levinson, who disguised himself as a believer looking to make a video for fundraising purposes in America, in order to unveil the true philosophy behind The Jamm. "It's not maybe yes, maybe no. It's black and white. The best thing a believer can do is to make a non-believer believe in Christ. It's an even bigger 'mitzvah' if they convert a Jew."

Levinson reveals that two days after he handed the video over to the Jerusalem Police, he got a call from friends at The Jamm inquiring how the video got into the wrong hands. "I was shocked. Until now, I don't know how they found out about the video so quickly."

The police didn't call him in for questioning until three weeks later. At the same time, Richard Ayal Frieden, owner of The Jamm, was approached by police immediately.

Frieden is proud to define himself as a Jewish believer in Yeshua, but denies that the purpose of his establishment is to convert Israeli youth.

"The Jamm," says Frieden, a former narcotics detective at the Jerusalem precinct who left his job in 1994, "is a non-profit organization that exists to promote local arts and to encourage youth and young adults in their respective musical talents. There is nothing illegal going on at The Jamm. We are not actively proselytizing young people."

"There is a witch-hunt going on," continues Frieden who, in addition to The Jamm, runs an annual week-long music camp for messianic kids and oversees the Jamm Academy of Arts, which holds after-school fine arts, multimedia and computer graphics classes taught by believing professionals and Heart Rock TV (HRTV), which produces TVY2, a 30-minute Hebrew music video program for central public access channel Tevel (Arutz Mekomi Merkaz), national public access channel 25 (Arutz Zahav Artzi), Matav Digitali and Yes 90 (Artzi Arutz Hapatuach).

"If I've committed a crime in sharing the love of God through the good work that we are doing at the Jamm," says Frieden, "then put me on the stand."

On the HRTV website, Frieden writes: "The youth of Israel are key to the future of Israel and to the expansion of the indigenous body of believers. Many Israeli youth are walking in darkness. We are here to inform them of 'the one whom they have not believed ' and introduce them to 'the one whom they have not heard' (Romans 10:14)."

Frieden explains that The Jamm holds one faith-based worship service per week, meant exclusively for members of the Jerusalem Youth Cell Group. "Each person under the age of 18 who comes on Monday night needs permission from their parents."

Minors, claims Frieden, are given a waiver that clearly indicates what the service is about, for parents to sign. "This is something that we're quite strict about."

Shmulik Ben-Rubi, spokesman for the Jerusalem Police, concurs. "We have talked to both kids and their parents and we have found that parents allow their kids to be in this place."

Ben-Rubi notes that the investigation surrounding The Jam is still open. "If we find any sign of conversion, we will act according to the law. But as far as we know, they are not trying to convert kids."

The police might have missed Cohen, who says he was invited to a worship night without being given a waiver. "I was never asked to have my parents sign a permission form. I just came on a Thursday night and they invited me to come on Monday. They invite all the people who come on Thursday to the prayer meeting. That's how I got there. I wouldn't have known about it otherwise."

According to Cohen, believer meetings are the prime time for circulating missionary literature.

"I personally don't hand out anything," says K., a 28-year-old Jamm volunteer from Germany. "I cannot hide what I believe in, but I would never force it on anybody or give someone a pamphlet."

Cohen has a different version. "They gave me workbooks and the New Testament and said that Jesus gave his life for us and we need to give our lives to Him."

Cohen, whose parents divorced a couple of years before he started spending time at The Jamm, realizes in retrospect that he was the perfect candidate for missionary activity. "It was a very rough time in my life. I needed friends and the people at The Jamm were nice. They listened and talked to me."

The believers, he says, also offered him a place to stay at their shared boys' house. "They go to the weak people and they try to take them in."

Rubin says that Cohen's assessment is accurate. "It is very difficult to change the mind of someone who doesn't have any problems in his life. That's why they are going to lonely people or people with financial or family problems. There are a lot of people out there who are in trouble and these missionaries give them hope."

Levinson asserts that awarding hope is The Jamm's most cherished technique.

"They act nice to people who don't have someone who will listen to them at home, or who don't have a nice home," he says. "The Jamm is a nice, warm place for people who don't have a nice, warm place to go."

Rubin claims that the current economic crisis in Israel and in the capital in particular, provides the missionaries with more opportunities than usual, since many Israelis are particularly needy at this time.

"It's a business," says Rubin and emphasizes that all of the messianic congregations in Israel receive money from Christian churches abroad to help them conduct their activities. "When they are speaking with Jews, they are Jews. When they try to get money from Christians, they are Christians. Basically, they are liars."

The Jamm fits the mold. Not only does the organization have affiliates in both Franklin, Tennessee and the Netherlands, it is sponsored in part by Gratefully Grafted Ministries International, headquartered in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which offers financial support to some 40 messianic ministries in Israel, including congregations, worship centers and "outreach programs" like The Jamm.

Says Rubin, "The Jamm aims to target youth in the street and they don't have a problem getting the money to do it from abroad."

"The Jamm is a Christian fundamentalist group and nothing more than that," adds Binyamin Kluger, head of advocacy for the anti-missionary department at Yad L'Achim.

"Why are Israeli authorities doing nothing to stop them?" asks Rivka. "I just don't understand. If the law clearly says that what they are doing is wrong, why isn't anything being done about it?

"I just try to imagine what would happen if a couple of religious Jews started trying to convert Christian boys to stop believing in Yeshua. I'm sure it wouldn't hold for one week."

She then offers one reason the Israeli justice system has neglected to deal with the issue. "Perhaps Christians in America have a very big influence here, but unless we are willing to sacrifice our own Jewish kids for the donations and tourism money of Christians, our first obligation is to protect our own youth."

A letter written by then-Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in which he expressed his disagreemet with the 1997 Proposed Bill on the Prohibition of Inducement for Religious Conversion, supports Cohen's suggestion.

"It has come to my attention that a bill before the Israeli parliament concerning possession of missionary literature has created a stir among our many Christian friends," wrote Netanyahu in response to the private member bill proposed by then-Labor Party opposition member Nissim Zvilli and Rabbi Moshe Gafni of the Yahadut HaTorah Party, which would have made the printing, distribution and possession of missionary material a crime punishable by up to one year in prison. "I would like to assure you that this bill does not have the support of the Israeli government...the government strenuously objects to this bill and will act to ensure that it does not pass. Israel deeply values your support, and we appreciate your friendship and commitment."

The reason for the legal authorities' lack of action against missionary organizations remains obscure. In the meantime, The Jamm, which has a link on the Jerusalem Municipality website, has plans to expand its horizons to include an indoor skateboarding park on Ben Yehuda Street, a project their pamphlet describes as "a [potential] harvest field for the Lord."

"There are few cases that are as black and white as The Jamm," says Rubin. "The case is very clear. Why aren't they being properly investigated or prosecuted? It's a very good question."


TOPICS: Israel; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: messianicjews
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1 posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:15 PM PDT by missyme
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To: All

I was shocked," he continues. "I was born a Jew and I want to be a Jew and I am not interested in converting away from Judaism. It is horrible when you think you have friends and then you find out that they are actually your enemies."


This remark is pretty sad from this Youth, Palestinians are your enemies not the Christians....


2 posted on 08/02/2004 5:30:48 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme
To the writer of the piece the question is why the law against this sort of thing (inviting Jews to Christianity) is not suppressed by the authorities.

Guess the state of Israel can afford to purchase many of it's most effective and advanced weapons systems from countries without lots of Christians ~ that would be the answer.

Now, my question is why the Knesset hasn't bothered to eliminate that law.

3 posted on 08/02/2004 5:39:10 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: missyme

Yes, it does seem like an awfully strong term. These people believe what they believe, and are eager to share it with others who they sincerely believe will benefit from it. However misguided their approach and/or their beliefs may be, they're hardly "enemies". Seems like everything out in that part of the world gets hyperpolarized -- not a healthy mindset IMO. Why should a 15 year old have been raised to believe that missionaries from other religions are "enemies"?


4 posted on 08/02/2004 5:40:12 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: missyme

From the context, it appears that he is speaking personally. He is not calling all Christians his enemies. He is saying that those Christians who are involved with efforts to convert troubled Jewish youth -- who simply are trying to live at peace in their ancient homeland -- away from their Jewish religion are his enemies.

I surmise that you approve of the behavior of these missionaries. If you support this, you are indifferent to the pain of the Jewish people. You may not know this, but Jewish parents traditionally have gone into mourning when their children converted from Judaism to Christianity because to them it was like losing a child.


5 posted on 08/02/2004 5:42:23 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: missyme

It doesn't make sense that the law exists at all. In a democracy let people have access to information (in this case the New Testament) and let them decide for themselves what to believe. The best defense against the spread of Christianity among Israeli youth would be for the Jewish leaders to actually refute the claims made by Christians. Or maybe their inability to refute the Christian message is reason for the law?


6 posted on 08/02/2004 5:43:31 PM PDT by JeepInMazar
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To: GovernmentShrinker

Exactly, if the Christian Missionaries are not insulting or defaming the Jewish Religion then what is all the hoopla about?

It seems to me that many in Israel STILL do not even know who Jesus is? they do not know he was a Jew who in fact was an Orthodox Jew? they have a pre-conceived idea that Christianity is like ISLAM.

This organization is working with youth without violence, hate, alcohol and drugs, I would think it would be embraced...


7 posted on 08/02/2004 5:46:19 PM PDT by missyme
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To: JeepInMazar

The reason for a Jewish state is to provide a location where Jews can live in peace. Many of those who move to Israel do so because they find themselves unable to live as Jews in their country of origin.

It is sad that these people move to Israel, let down their guard and then are induced by missionaries operating under false pretenses to abandon the faith of their ancestors. It is doubly sad since in many cases these people's parents recognized that their children were becoming alienated from their faith, and the parents decided to move to Israel to revitalize their connection to the Jewish people.

I don't know why you think that missionaries have a perfect right to approach these people in Israel, a foreign country, and trick them into believing that they can accept Christianity and continue to be true to their Judaism.


8 posted on 08/02/2004 5:49:21 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

Why do they think Jesus is going to do kill them or something?

This concept is so strange to me, they are not saying do not be proud to be a Jew? Jesus was proud to be Jewish?

They are sharing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and of eternal salvation. I would tell these parents would you like to have your child for maybe 80 years or eternally?

Really what is so wrong in sharing a message of love and eternal salvation that Jesus offers, what is so horrible about that???


9 posted on 08/02/2004 5:51:48 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

Where can we send contributions to missionary groups like Jamm?


10 posted on 08/02/2004 5:53:30 PM PDT by Kerfuffle
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To: Piranha

So are you saying Jesus had no right to preach at the Temples in Jerusalem? he had no right to question the Jewish elders? Jesus was the first missionary I guess you could say. Was it agaisnt the law in Israel to have a following of Jews as Jesus did?

Jesus was accused of leading the people of Israel astray and they wanted to rid him, are you saying Israel still feels this way?


11 posted on 08/02/2004 5:57:28 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

I remember from previous postings that you are too young to have teen-aged children. Perhaps you have brothers or sisters.

How would you -- a committed Christian -- feel if your brother or sister had been hanging out at a coffeehouse with people who lured them in, then slowly induced them to accept Hinduism, or Buddhism, or some other non-Christian faith?


12 posted on 08/02/2004 5:57:47 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: missyme

If Jesus -- a committed Jew -- came back to earth, do you think he would pray in an Orthodox, Conservative or Reform synagogue?

One thing for sure, he wouldn't go to a Christian Church, since he was not a Christian. I think he would pray at at Orthodox synagogue, since he followed Jewish laws, was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died as a Jew. The Christian religion -- which, as the article that you posted states, is NOT Judaism -- did not originate until decades after his death.


13 posted on 08/02/2004 6:00:56 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Kerfuffle

Send them to me. I'll make sure that they go to a good place.


14 posted on 08/02/2004 6:01:36 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

I would be upset if any body I knew gave up the one true living GOD of the Universe, The GOD of Abraham the GOD of the JEWS the GENTILES to embrace idolatry....


15 posted on 08/02/2004 6:01:38 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Piranha

I'm not sure I follow you? what do you mean a Christian Church? anybody can be a Christian by professing Lord Jesus Christ as your personal saviour and reedemer?

I don't think Jesus would be praying in any house of worship that had a bunch of hypocrites in it. Jesus would proably be praying in Sudan right now if he were on earth...


16 posted on 08/02/2004 6:06:15 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

Christians who come to a Jewish state to convert Jews are the enemy. Their activity is illegal and should be stopped.

Oh, and NO, Israel does not have unrestricted freedom of religion when in comes to prostletyzing, which Jews pretty much universally find HIGHLY OFFENSIVE.


17 posted on 08/02/2004 6:06:19 PM PDT by anotherview
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To: missyme

Well, now you know how Jews feel.

Jews who know their faith do not feel that there is a void in their religion. They are not waiting for you or other Christians to convert them away from Judaism. They are very comfortable with their faith. They believe that their faith is the true and correct one, just as you believe that yours is the same.

Unlike Christianity, Judaism takes a live-and-let-live point of view. Not only does it not try to convert non-Jews to Judaism, but it discourages those who want to convert to Judaism. (On the other hand, Judaism is actively involved in outreach to non-religious Jews.)

The only kind of outreach to Gentiles that Jews do -- and not very aggressively -- is to encourage them to become b'nai Noah, or to obey the seven Noahide laws that, to Jews, demarcate the difference between civilized and primitive peoples.


18 posted on 08/02/2004 6:07:40 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: missyme
This article was meant to create trouble between Christians and Jews.

Israel and the Jewish people should be defended. They've gotten a raw deal for five thousand years.

And one day I hope all Jews become Christians.

19 posted on 08/02/2004 6:08:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Piranha

Yes, and some of those parents have converted later to Christianity and are glad their children took a step to which they objected.


20 posted on 08/02/2004 6:10:49 PM PDT by Kackikat (,Kerry=the counterfeit, GWBush is the real deal!)
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To: Piranha

I'm thinking a 15 year old's parent(s) ought to know what kind of "coffee houses" he's hanging out in, and if it involves activities or beliefs the parent(s) disapprove of, then make sure the kid doesn't go there. I think these messianic Jewish missionaries are nutty -- much like the "Jews for Jesus" outfit that descends on the NYC subways a couple of times a year. But calling them "enemies" is excessive. Not everyone who wants to convert you to their belief system is an "enemy" -- most are just enthusiastic about their beliefs, and genuinely believe you will be too, if you just learn about them. One can take a pass on their proselytizing efforts without defining them as "enemies".


21 posted on 08/02/2004 6:11:36 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: anotherview

HIGHLY OFFENSIVE. ??
This makes no sense to me? Jesus Christ is highly offensive?

What is highly offensive? I will ask this question til doomsday, because I do not see one thing Jesus Christ did in 33 years that was offensive to anyone? yet we offended him crucified him and many still do 2000 years later and he still forgives???But human beings still say he is the one who is offensive???






22 posted on 08/02/2004 6:12:17 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

If Jesus comes back at the end of days, I'll ask him if this is his second or third time alive on Earth.

If it is his third, Dr. Eckleburg, I'll be the first to tell you that I was wrong.

In the meantime, we Jews and you Christians have a lot in common. I would prefer to focus on those aspects of our humanity and faith that unite us rather than Jewish observance, on the one hand, and the belief in Jesus as the Messiah, on the other hand, which are the issues that divide us.


23 posted on 08/02/2004 6:12:34 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

Boy are you confused. JESUS came to bring Christianity, since he is the Messiah, The Christ. It was Jesus who said "I am the way, the truth and the life and NO MAN comes to the Father but by me". You may not want it to be that way, but that is the way it is. It was the JEWS, Pharisees and Saduccees..who crucified my Lord.
The Bible predicts there will be Jews converted in last days in large number. Paul and Peter were imprisoned for teaching "The Way", the first name of the Christian Faith.


24 posted on 08/02/2004 6:14:37 PM PDT by Kackikat (,Kerry=the counterfeit, GWBush is the real deal!)
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To: missyme

excellent article


25 posted on 08/02/2004 6:14:57 PM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
But calling them "enemies" is excessive. Not everyone who wants to convert you to their belief system is an "enemy" -- most are just enthusiastic about their beliefs, and genuinely believe you will be too, if you just learn about them.

I'm sure that Muslims sincerely want to convert Jews and Christians to their belief system. Certainly, Muhammad first tried to convert the Jews before he hated them.

So did Martin Luther.

The Spanish Inquisition was not against Jews. It was against Jews (and Muslims) who were coerced into accepting Christianity but were believed to be insincere Christians. I think that the Catholic Church at the time of the Spanish Inquisition also sincerely held its convictions.

In fact, throughout the centuries of persecution of Jews, it is only under the Nazis that Jews were not permitted to save themselves by converting to the faith of those who were bothering them.

At a time when the Jewish people is rebuilding, when the memory of the Holocaust is still fresh in the mind of at least the older Jews still alive in this world, it is a display of brazen contempt against the Jews to move to Israel and lure Jews away from their faith while they are trying to do no more than live their own lives in peace.

As far as I am concerned, both Christian missionaries in Israel and the International Solidarity Movement both are trying to destroy the Jewish People. The Christian missionaries do this by causing them to be culturally and religiously alienated from their own people, and the ISM does it by more violent means. No doubt, more Jews have been lost to the Jewish people through the efforts of Christian missionaries.

26 posted on 08/02/2004 6:20:12 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

Judaism is based in the OLD TESTAMENT history of Jesus Ancestors, so therefore the Holidays, Feasts and Holy Days of the Jewish people are practiced by many Christians. Christians are also descendents of Seth, son of Adam and Eve, and sons of God by adoption (gentiles).

The gospel is to be preached to all nations until the return of Jesus, that was his instruction. When the UN, and Nations stop that and draw their armies up against Israel, you had better run cause JESUS is on the way!!! That's a given Biblical Prophecy.


27 posted on 08/02/2004 6:20:29 PM PDT by Kackikat (,Kerry=the counterfeit, GWBush is the real deal!)
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To: Piranha

Your point is moot, Jesus is the Gospel, the truth and it has to be shared or it isn't christianity.


28 posted on 08/02/2004 6:21:56 PM PDT by Kackikat (,Kerry=the counterfeit, GWBush is the real deal!)
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To: Piranha

"With open mike nights on Wednesdays and Punk concerts on Thursdays, including free coffee, chai tea and snacks, the non-smoking, alcohol-free Jamm provides a clean and tempting atmosphere for Jerusalem youth."

In one of the organization's pamphlets, The Jamm describes itself as "the first and only Israeli Messianic Youth ministry center of its kind in Israel," the main goal of which is "to serve as a safe place for young people to find out about the mercies of the true and living God."

"They gave me workbooks and the New Testament and said that Jesus gave his life for us and we need to give our lives to Him."

That doesn't sound like they lured him in. Sounds like they had a coffee-house that people knew was "messianic" (from the phamplet). Not sure if free tea and coffee is considered "luring".

Typical Christian outreach is to get to know people based on similar interests, etc. I was at a meeting on Evangilism and this pastor said they have had great success with motorcyles. They had a big motorcyle show in the church lot on a Saturday, and a group asked if they could show up in their "leathers" for Sunday service, and then on to a cruise afterwards. The pastor said sure. Dozens showed up that day, and now 100's show up each Sunday.

It all started when the Pastor spoke to a husband of one of his parishinors. The husband didn't like churches 'cuz some church awhile back kicked him out of the worship service because he had on his motorcyle leathers.


29 posted on 08/02/2004 6:22:05 PM PDT by geopyg (Peace..................through decisive and ultimate VICTORY. (Democracy, whiskey, sexy))
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To: Piranha

Well if people would of obeyed the Noachide laws or Ten Commandments believe me there would of been no need for Jesus to come to earth...

Your have a narrow vision of the earth and the people in it.

You need to look what will bring PEACE to earth my dear
it's not any paticular faith it is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ that will bring PEACE as it is in many countries now without Jesus you will see the growth of a GODLESS NATION which is happening in Europe right now...

Noachide Laws aren't converting Africans, Asians, Koreans, Muslims only Jesus is why? beacuse of the Holy Spirit Jesus grants to anyone who accepts his message of eternal salvation by asking for the forgiveness of there sins.

Even Saddam Hussein has a chance of redemption if he sincerely accpets Jesus Christ as his saviour and ask's for forgiveness before it's to late....



30 posted on 08/02/2004 6:22:19 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Kackikat
The Bible predicts there will be Jews converted in last days in large number.

Thanks. I'll put it in my tickler file. In the meantime, mind your own business and leave us alone.

31 posted on 08/02/2004 6:22:20 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha
One thing for sure, he wouldn't go to a Christian Church, since he was not a Christian. I think he would pray at at Orthodox synagogue, since he followed Jewish laws, was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died as a Jew. The Christian religion -- which, as the article that you posted states, is NOT Judaism -- did not originate until decades after his death.

Most "Christians" would be shocked to know that of all the Jewish sects of the First Century, early followers of Y'shua ["Jesus"] had a theology most closely aligned with the Pharisees. Acts 21 records that "myriads" of Jews living in Jerusalem were following Y'shua and were ZEALOUS FOR THE TORAH. The closest thing to the "religion" of the followers of Y'shua is Judaism - because the "Christian" religion abandoned it's Hebrew roots in the Second Century and officially became a NEW religion. Not good.
32 posted on 08/02/2004 6:23:04 PM PDT by safisoft
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To: safisoft; missyme

You're absolutely right, safisoft. Christianity became a new religion.

All of the obfuscation of "it's not any paticular faith it is the Gospel message of Jesus Christ that will bring PEACE" is mumbo jumbo, because Christianity is a faith, just as Judaism is. It is either naive or deliberately misleading to say otherwise.


33 posted on 08/02/2004 6:26:37 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

Frank Zappa once said: You can't convince someone of anything that they didn't already believe. What would I do if someone tried to "trick" my child into becoming a Hindu? Nothing. I will teach my children what I believe. If they agree, great. But they have to and will live their own lives, regardless of how I feel about it. I thought I was a liberal for 25 years, and bought into it ALL. When I did my own investigation and study into what the left REALLY is, I rejected it. Of course I would be very disappointed if my child rejected my faith, but I would never hate my child, or have him arrested for believing something I don't. There seems to be an absolute hatred among Jews toward Christians, that I just don't see vice versa. I have Jewish relatives even though my family is Catholic. They are completely and totally accepted, loved members of the family, nothing less.


34 posted on 08/02/2004 6:30:00 PM PDT by boop
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To: Kackikat; Piranha

Agreed!
It is the Christians who will fight to the death to support Israel because it is what GOD commands. If the people let the UN run the show or a One World Government they will have much to worry about....

Messianic Judiasm is fast growing, they have embraced there Messiah and feel the love of GOD and they are doing good things, and maybe one day Un-believers will see the Joy millions of people have of all denominations, ethnic backgrounds Jew and Gentile alike have when Jesus is a central part of there exsistence on this troubled planet...


35 posted on 08/02/2004 6:31:04 PM PDT by missyme
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To: boop

Boop, I think you're completely wrong. I don't think that there is hatred of Christians among Jews -- at least not among observent (or even spiritual) Jews.

There is distrust and, at times, hatred of Christians who missionize among Jews, who won't let Jews live in peace as Jews, to be a free people in their land (as Hatikvah so beautifully puts it), but who continue to tear Jewish children away from their culture and their faith.

Fortunately, the subset of Christians who go after the Jews like that is a very small group, and in my opinion its existence shouldn't poison the relationship between Jews and Christians who share a mutual respect for one-another.


36 posted on 08/02/2004 6:34:38 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

Do you know how many religions accept Jesus Christ,
Catholics, lutherans, Mormons, Messianic Jews, Nazarenes
Jews for Jesus,Baptists, Protestants, Jehovah Witness, Christian Scientist, Methodists,Episcopalians Church of Christ.

So tell me do you know what everyone of these denominations teach about Jesus Christ? is it the same Message the Jewish Apostles had spread to the Gentile Pagan world..Do you even know?????


37 posted on 08/02/2004 6:35:42 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
From another thread. :)

And we've all seen our share of "childish" behavior on this forum.

Hi Doc!

Jump on and lets go for a ride.

:)

BigMack

38 posted on 08/02/2004 6:37:14 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: missyme

Thanks, anyway, Missyme, but I am not an anthropologist. There's so much to learn in Judaism that I don't have the time or, franky, the interest to learn about the doctrines of the myriad of Christian faiths that you mention.


39 posted on 08/02/2004 6:39:24 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

The won't leave the Jews alone as they won't leave anyone alone who does not know the message of Jesus Christ WHY?
Because Jesus commanded to go and spread the GOSPEL to ALL Nations after his resurrection.

He did not say preach only to Gentiles he said EVERYONE and that includes the JEWS...


40 posted on 08/02/2004 6:39:48 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme

Thanks, anyway, Missyme, but I am not an anthropologist. There's so much to learn in Judaism that I don't have the time or, franky, the interest to learn about the doctrines of the myriad of Christian faiths that you mention.


41 posted on 08/02/2004 6:39:55 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

The won't leave the Jews alone as they won't leave anyone alone who does not know the message of Jesus Christ WHY?
Because Jesus commanded to go and spread the GOSPEL to ALL Nations after his resurrection.

He did not say preach only to Gentiles he said EVERYONE and that includes the JEWS...


42 posted on 08/02/2004 6:40:00 PM PDT by missyme
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To: Piranha
feel if your brother or sister had been hanging out at a coffeehouse with people who lured them in, then slowly induced them

Wow ...is that what happend?.....

43 posted on 08/02/2004 6:43:35 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: missyme

To the Jew first and also the 'Greek'


44 posted on 08/02/2004 6:44:56 PM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: missyme

That's the most arrogant attitude I have ever heard!

You should go visit Rome. There is a church just inside of the gates of the old Jewish ghetto, where the Jews who lived there were herded in against their will and forced to listen to sermon after sermon by Christian religious leaders who believed that it was their business to convert the Jews.

Precious few Jews converted, but every one is a loss to the Jewish people.


45 posted on 08/02/2004 6:45:56 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: Piranha

When did that happen?


46 posted on 08/02/2004 6:47:02 PM PDT by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: Piranha

Christianity is a faith? THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID RIGHT?
So is Christianity the same faith as Jehovah Witnesses are?

ISLAM also acknowledges Jesus Christ so is this also Chrisitianity to you?


47 posted on 08/02/2004 6:48:24 PM PDT by missyme
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To: missyme
In addition to their deceiving self-description, initial methods to entice new congregants usually include putting up posters and websites and going to festivals and public places to distribute pamphlets and books bearing Jewish symbols.

Sounds like my church. We fully embrace the Jewishness of our faith.

I guess I'm a Messianic gentile.

48 posted on 08/02/2004 6:48:47 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (The Fleet Center? Isn't Fleet an enema company?)
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To: Piranha

I sense that you believe that Christians and Messianic Jews are trying to "hurt" Jews by "converting" them. I must most strenuously disagree. If someone gave me information that made some sense to me, I would be grateful. If it made no sense to me I would reject it. It is up to me to decide for myself. I wouldn't hate the person who tried to inform me. Yes, this would include a Jew who "converted" someone I love.


49 posted on 08/02/2004 6:53:44 PM PDT by boop
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To: Piranha

Do you think your immortal, everyone will loose someone it's called "DEATH" If someone told me that they were offering me a way to achieve eternal life by the one TRUE living GOD of the Universe, I would be more than happy to listen.

For every Jewish person that is blown up by a terrorist I would think it would be comforting to hear that Jesus was there to welcome there loved ones into eternal Peace, Love and Happiness which we call HEAVEN...


50 posted on 08/02/2004 6:54:25 PM PDT by missyme
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