Posted on 08/04/2004 5:02:48 AM PDT by A. Pole
That is what happen to my uncle, for 10 years he can only work as factory worker...part time too. In SU he was mechanical engineer. Israel government pay for half his apartment, only way he could get one.
That is true, but least one forget the 6 million Poles who die in Concentration camps, 22 million Russian civilians, 1 million yugoslavs, 1 million Greeks, 1 million Italians (after it switch sides), 2-4 million French and few million Germans who less then agree with Hitler.
Fine, do not let in the communists...or is it Russians, Poles, others you blame directly as whole peoples...in which case that is blatent racist. Considering that Christianity also grow from Israel, Christians have all rights to visit or live in lands of our Messiah...or will you deny that to us?
Any country is allowed to restrict immigration to retain the character of it's nation. Must France allow unlimited Russian immigration? Japan? United States? They don't. Neither does Israel.
The "Right of Return" applied only to Jews. If you call that racist you must call every nation on the planet racist, including Russia. Also, last I heard, Christianity was a religion, not a racial grouping.
So, to answer your question, no, Christians or Russians or anyone else who is not Israeli or Jewish do not have an automatic right to migrate to Israel, or anywhere else for that matter. Thank G-d for that. The whole point of Israel is to have a Jewish state where we can live without persecution, something we have faced in Russia and everywhere else.
Oh, and the line about kidnapping, how many historical sources do you want that from? Russia's history is not a pretty one. For that matter, neither is anyone else's. I will state flatly that the United States committed genocide against Native Americans in the early years of the nation. Where did I learn that? In American public schools, of course. That's an ugly piece of history that Americans face up to. It doesn't make the U.S. any less free, open, tolerant, or great today. That was then this is now.
You can deny Russia's darkly anti-Semitic or face up to it and make today's Russia a very different place indeed. I have never accused you of anti-Semitism. I have never accused any living Russian of taking part in a pogrom. However, history clearly shows Russia had violent anti-Semitism and pogroms. If Russia is truly to be a great, prosperous, tolerant, and free nation (which I certainly hope it is becoming) it must face it's past just as America did.
Israel does not practice apartheid. We leave that to the Arabs.
Muslims (about 17-18% of the population), Druze (1%), and Christians (a fraction of a percent) who live in Israel are free to continue to live here, to practice their religion, to speak their languages, to enjoy their native cultures. Do you know how much time and money is spent on Russian language programming by the Israel Broadcasting Authority to accommodate the ethic Russian population? I think not. There is no restriction on Orthodox Russians attending Orthodox churches, what few exist in the country.
Israel is primarily a Jewish state. That does not mean "everyone else get out". Everyone else who has Israeli citizenship has all the rights and benefits that conveys. However, no free nation has open immigration. Israel only has open immigration for Jews. There are times and circumstances when non-Jewish immigrants are permitted into the country to live, and we have an estimated 250,000 Russians whom the rabbinate does not consider Jewish. Most do have Jewish relatives and they are counted (by their own choice) as part of the Jewish population. Most integrate into Israeli society.
So, if you consider that you cannot just move to Israel if you want to racist or apartheid, fine. Then every nation in the world is equally racist. Some, like Japan, are more so, as they have some of the most restrictive immigration laws in the world. Funny, I've never heard the term apartheid applied to the Japanese. Have you?
Right of Return is one grandparent of either side...which is Israeli law and open to non jews, obviously.
Anti-Americanism (the United States is part of the West, no?) will get you nowhere on Free Republic. It will make you decidedly unpopular.
Yes, the idea was to allow a very liberal definition of "who is a Jew" to allow those living Jewish lives and facing persecution for it to enter Israel. The net result has been to let in a lot of (about 250,000) non-Jews. IMHO, it is greatly abused by people who are not Zionists, who do not really identify as Jews, and who don't really belong in the country. They had to claim to be Jewish and to have a rabbi sign a letter to that effect to immigrate, or that, at least according to Israeli law, is how it's supposed to be done.
The issue of "who is a Jew" is a hotly debated one in Israel. The intention was NEVER to let in non-Jews.
Six million Poles and 22 million Russians did NOT die in concentration camps. Rather, most died fighting Nazism. They, too, are victims of Hitler and the Nazis and should be remembered and honored. However, Hitler never had a plan to exterminate all Poles and Russians as he did Jews and Roma (gypsies). I noticed you didn't mention the 3 million Roma dead. By percentage of the population they lost more than the Jewish people did.
You should know, RussianConservative, that doctors trained in Russia have to re-study in order to qualify as doctors in the U.S. or Israel. That's just a fact. That doesn't mean that Russian doctors aren't perhaps better than doctors from countries in other areas.
ONLY A MATTER OF TIME I FEAR
My father went to med school in Poland. When he moved to Israel, he had to retake one year and redo his residence.(He was then drafted and served as a naval surgeon.) When he emmigrated to America, he had to redo his residence here.
Of the 6 million Poles who died in WW2, 1/2 were Jews. About 1 in 5 Poles were killed during World War 2. A few hundred thousand civilians also died at the hands of the Soviets. Personally, I believe that WWII ended only when the last Soviet soldier left Poland.
Again truth be told - the reason so many Jews were to be found in the east - not all inside Russia - but in Austria-Hungry and Poland and Ottoman Turkey - was because they were kicked out in the West. Norman England was the first "judenfrie" nation in Europe. Even in these eastern havens they were restricted. Jews for example payed a dhimmi tax to the Turks just like the Christians and had pogroms fall on them as well - but are not remembered well by Westerners.
History is not as simple as we all like to think.
English King Edward 1st expelled all Jews in 1290 AD and confiscated their wealth. It took 400 years for the Jews to return when English dictator, Oliver Cromwell asked the Jews to return to England to re-boost English international trade.
The Russian pogroms date back only to 1881-1884 when a wave of Jewish pogroms swept southern Russia after the assasination of Czar Alexander II the emancipator of the Serfs.
The communist Soviets (who were of many ethnic and religous backgrounds) hated all minorities that had a tradition that had the potential to divert loyalty away from teh communist party. So Soviet communists also discriminated against Jews because of that - many times those persecuting Jews were party memebers who happened to be Jews themselves.
Actually, I can make the case that that was when the Great War (WW1) finally ended.
By the way, most Hisidics and Orthodox Jews not in least Zionists...why? Because Zionist is nationalistic not religious and most peoples living on Kabutzies atheists.
Ok, if you are so smart, 12 million die in concentration camps, mostly located in Poland...who were other 6 million? As for Russian civilians, they do not die in concentration camps, I never say such, and they do not die fighting Germans...unless you consider example of 40,000 killed in Stalingrad on first day of air bombardment as "fighting". Most killed in mass murder or executions or bombardments or starved. Another 8 million Russian soldier die in battle or slave camps.
Wrong, Hitler had all measure to clear Poland of all Poles, as it was first wave for Liebensroumen...can't have colony land if no land available.
Do some serious reading:
Czechs & Slovaks were to be Germanized.
Poles, exterminated or sent off as Ouslander Arbieten (foreign worker: slave) in Germany.
Russians to be cleared out from all cities, mostly killed off the rest left in small villages as slave labor, agricultural.
Jews, exterminated.
Roma, exterminated
Roma were mostly killed off in Yugoslavia and Russia, where they have highest percentages (rest is in Romania but as allie, Romania did not let Hitler have his way). Those rolled up into general death toll.
How much is that because of skill or how much because to allow otherwise would flood markets with doctors, causing competition, lower incomes for doctors and such?
To allow otherwise would allow to many doctors in markets to keep evil competition from showing its face...this way, numbers kept small with obstacles....no compeitition...better revenue. Of course you get screwed...but you have insurance for that.
See post #52. Also, why do you want so badly to believe that Russian doctors are as highly trained and skilled as Americans? I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but get serious.
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