Posted on 08/16/2004 9:09:34 AM PDT by technomage
AP: Group Discovers John the Baptist Cave
KIBBUTZ TZUBA, Israel (AP)
KARIN LAUB
Archaeologists said Monday they have found a cave where they believe John the Baptist anointed many of his disciples - a huge cistern with 28 steps leading to an underground pool of water.
During an exclusive tour of the cave by The Associated Press, archaeologists presented wall carvings they said tell the story of the fiery New Testament preacher, as well as a stone they believe was used for ceremonial foot washing.
They also pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual.
"John the Baptist, who was just a figure from the Gospels, now comes to life," said British archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who supervised the dig outside Jerusalem.
However, others said there was no proof that John the Baptist ever set foot in the cave, about 2 1/2 miles from Ein Kerem, the preacher's hometown and now part of Jerusalem.
"Unfortunately, we didn't find any inscriptions," said James Tabor, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.
Tabor and his students have participated in the excavations.
Both Tabor and Gibson said it was very likely that the wall carvings, including one showing a man with a staff and wearing animal skin, told the story of John the Baptist. The carvings stem from the Byzantine period and apparently were made by monks in the fourth or fifth century.
Gibson said he believed the monks commemorated John at a site linked to him by local tradition.
Gibson said the carvings, the foot washing stone and other finds, taken together with the proximity of John's hometown, constituted strong circumstantial evidence that the cave was used by John.
John, a contemporary of Jesus who also preached a message of redemption, is one of the most important figures in Christianity. The discovery, if confirmed, would be among the most significant breakthroughs for biblical scholars in memory.
The cave is on the property of Kibbutz Tzuba, an Israeli communal farm just outside Jerusalem. A member of the kibbutz, Reuven Kalifon, knew of the cave's existence - the community's nectarine orchards run right up to the mouth of the cave - but it was filled with soil almost to the ceiling.
In 1999, Kalifon asked Gibson to inspect the cave more closely.
The archaeologist, who has excavated in the Holy Land for three decades, crawled through the small opening and began removing boulders near the wall of the cave. When he pushed aside one of the stones, he saw a head carved into the wall - the top of the figure he believes depicts John.
Gibson, who heads the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, a private research group, organized an excavation. During the five-year project, he wrote a book, entitled "The Cave of John the Baptist," to be published later this week.
Gibson said the cave - 24 yards long, around four yards wide and four yards deep - was carved in the Iron Age, somewhere between 800 and 500 B.C., by the Israelites who apparently used it as an immersion pool.
"It apparently was adopted by John the Baptist, who wanted a place where he could bring people to undergo their rituals, pertaining to his ideas of baptism," Gibson said.
Believers would have walked down 28 stone steps. To their right, they would have discarded their clothes in a niche carved into the wall.
At the bottom of the steps, they would have placed the right foot onto a stone with an imprint of a foot. A small depression to the right of the imprint would have contained oil, to be poured over the foot for cleansing, Gibson said.
Perhaps it was a private bath...
Did they find any discarded candy wrappers?
ooooo, i wonder if john kerry is related to john the baptist...
Perhaps this is a forerunner of the catacombs.
That makes more sense, alongside the scriptures.
The Shroud of Turin, this cave, etc., are intriguing but the focal point and attention needs to be on Jesus, His death and resurrection.
""Unfortunately, we didn't find any inscriptions," said James Tabor,"
Unfortunate, indeed. Since bathing rituals were part of Old Testament Jewish life, especially for women, this seems rather suspicious to me. Somehow, I suspect there are many such sites.
John hijacked a Mikva?
One day, we were all hanging out at his house, drinking beer and watching football. Well, unexpectedly, Uncle Drunk (that’s what we called the boyfriend) came home and started yelling at us for our underaged drinking.
He pointed to my friend Kenny and slurred, “What’s your name?”
“John,” said Kenny.
“John who?”
“John The Baptist.”
“Well, how would you like it if I called your mother, John The Baptist?”
This little story has nothing to do with anything, but I laugh every time I hear the name “John the Baptist.”
Perhaps they can find Osama!
HA! TAKE THAT CHAPEL HILL!
UNCC REPRESENT!
Charlotte connection, John the Baptist (my patron/name saint) -- this is totally the article for me!
LOL! That reminds me of when my boyfriend in high school told his dad that he burned his neck while working on the muffler of his '56 Chevy. His dad started calling me "muffler"...
Interesting article, thanks for the ping!
For the GGG list...
The Baptist cave Found under Wayne manor.
Confirmed HOW? Apparition?
Got enough trouble keeping the flip-flops on, no oil today, thanks anyway.
I didn't know there were caves in the Jordan River...
I think they're looking to find a tablet signed by John the Baptist that says "...and by the way, that whole leaping in the womb story is true, too."
The Shroud is a fake, though it is a marvel, if it were Jesus's burial cloth, why wasn't an image revealed when Peter touched the cloth? Jesus didn't leave anything behind because he knew human nature. Man would worship articles instead of Him.
Another tourist trap for Christians visiting Israel. Still, the cave would be most interesting to see.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)
"... and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'OUCH! That hurts! Stop it! Mary, will you go away so he'll stop jumping on my bladder?!' "
(Obviously the "official" version was written by someone who'd never been six months pregnant.)
Follow the money. Soon there will be "relics" on the market that will be snapped up by a lot of DemocRAT useful idiots. Hahahahaha
You haven't a shred of evidence for that assertion.
though it is a marvel
It certainly is.
if it were Jesus's burial cloth, why wasn't an image revealed when Peter touched the cloth?
The Scripture does not say that Peter touched the cloth. It says that he beheld it. The context of the passage implies that he went inside and saw a small heap of cloth rather than the body he feared to see.
Jesus didn't leave anything behind because he knew human nature. Man would worship articles instead of Him.
No one worships the Shroud of Turin. You seem to be operating on a number of unspoken assumptions and prejudices.
Ping
Semper Fi
I see, as well as you...
Nah. Just some mummified, honey-coated grasshoppers.
Not really.
Perhaps you could produce for us a person who considers the Shroud of Turin to be a deity deserving of worship.
Though I am not saying it isn't possible, I am saying it is unlikely.
Also, If you 'bow' to anything it is worshipping that item.
The people of the Catholic faith worship artifacts that are deemed holy. Shadows and mold are worshipped if they resemble anything "holy".
When the shroud is opened to the public, do not some people, kneel and pray to that shroud?
That is worshipping...
>>Jesus didn't leave anything behind because he knew human nature. Man would worship articles instead of Him.<<
No-one worships the shroud, even though many people believe it is real.
>>if it were Jesus's burial cloth, why wasn't an image revealed when Peter touched the cloth?<<
Could you explain what you mean?
Not a chance. But I could see Kerry calling for the head of the Baptist just as Herod did.
LOL! That reminds me of when my boyfriend in high school told his dad that he burned his neck while working on the muffler of his '56 Chevy. His dad started calling me "muffler"...
LOL if a person had a hickey on their neck, we called it
a muffler burn.
There were Thousands that worshipped a staff with a serpant on it in the wilderness (Moses;Exodus)...
Thousands that worshipped a golden calf...
Millions worship a gravesite (Mecca)
Don't tell me there isn't ONE person that would worship the shroud.
The Shroud, had it been Jesus's Shroud, Peter would have noticed something with the burial clothes in the tomb.
Secondly, It wouldn't be out of character for the Roman Catholic Church to devise material to make converts.
I have been to Rome, I have seen the artifacts, not the shroud, but "Paul's Chains", the "Stairs leading to Pilots Court", The pieces of Christs Cross, Thomas's Finger (bone), etc...
"At the bottom of the steps, they would have placed the right foot onto a stone with an imprint of a foot. A small depression to the right of the imprint would have contained oil, to be poured over the foot for cleansing, Gibson said."
The foot-washing ritual has been accepted as a symbol of service to others, and of hunility. In addition, consider that ancient-world households would receive invited guests with refreshment, including a washing of the visitor's feet. Maybe the householder would actually do the washing, or perhaps a servant would be assigned that task.
Taken in this light, the foot-washing and annointing would be symbolic of a gracious welcome into the Kingdom of God.
Consider, too, that John said that he was not worthy to unstrap Jesus' sandals, much less wash his feet.
I see. So when a ballroom dancer bows to his dancing partner, he is acknowledging his dancing partner as a deity.
Good to know.
Interesting religion, ballroom dancing.
BTW, in Catholicism, there isn't much bowing. At a few points in the Mass the priest and the deacon bow to one another. However, the priest and deacon do not, at that moment, think that they are deities engaging in an act of mutual self-worship.
Is it your opinion that the prophet Nathan worshipped King David as a deity? After all, he did bow before him.
The people of the Catholic faith worship artifacts that are deemed holy.
In point of fact, their Catechism forbids them from engaging in such activity.
You seem to be confused - showing respect for things that belong to God is not identical to adoring those things as God.
Here's a tip - when people go to their parents' graves and put flowers on them, they are neither making an idolatrous "offering" or "sacrifice" of flowers nor are they worshipping their parents as deities.
**Scripture says nothing about John baptizing in a cave nor that there was any footwashing/annointing before nor after a baptism.**
In Catholic Baptism there is an annointing after the Baptism.
Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.
You can certainly discern "respect" from worship, can't you. As the Pharisee's did to Jesus, you are trying to do to me.
Genuflecting as to a "bow" in respect...That is why Hebrews couldn't "Bow" to other Kings who wish to be treated as Gods...
I would say you really are trying to hide something here.
Catechism says the church forbids such activity, yet it condones it in actions...Meaning, no one stops the people from doing it.
Nothing to hide her Zavien. Check out your Catholic facts before attacking. You will be a much happier person once you know the truth.
Open your Bible and read, it is quite the enlightening experience.
You just might learn something.
Yes, however there is nothing scriptural about baptising babies. Nor is it needed to get into heaven.
The Shroud, if its veracity is to be believed, is a relic of Jesus Christ.
As such, since it claims only to be an image, a trace of another being who is indeed a deity, no one who takes the Shroud seriously can worship it.
There were Thousands that worshipped a staff with a serpant on it in the wilderness (Moses;Exodus)...
Again, as with the comment about Simon Peter, you demonstrate that you merely skim Scripture without reading it carefully. Scripture does not mention anyone in the wilderness worshipping the staff.
It is only centuries later that Israelites began to confuse this instrument of Moses with the false god Nehushtan.
Thousands that worshipped a golden calf... Millions worship a gravesite (Mecca)
Of course. However, pointing out that other objects have become idolatrous does not mean that all are the objects of idolatrous worship.
The Lord ordained that his own Ark be adorned with images of cherubim, yet we do not read in Scripture that these cherubim became the objects of idolatry.
Don't tell me there isn't ONE person that would worship the shroud.
Barring clinical insanity. After all, as i stated above, the Shroud claims only to be a remnant and a trace of a larger reality. If you believe the Shroud to have value, it only has value in reference to the God of whom it is a trace. To worship it in and of itself, you would have to think that the Shroud's claims about itself are false. yet the only thing about the Shroud that inspires people to pay any attention to it is the belief in the veracity of its claims.
Worship of the Shroud is therefore a logical contradiction.
This I know to be false.
You demonstrate again and again complete ignorance of all things Catholic.
No Catholic I ever heard of, whether still in the Church or out of it, would ever say the ignorant things about it you routinely say.
Why?
>> The Shroud, had it been Jesus's Shroud, Peter would have noticed something with the burial clothes in the tomb.<<
Why? The bible makes no mention of Peter unravelling the dressings.
>> Secondly, It wouldn't be out of character for the Roman Catholic Church to devise material to make converts. <<
How do relics gain converts? "A-Ha! Thomas' finger! This PROVES the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception!" ????
I've more often seen atrocious anti-Catholic claims made by finders of relics, such as "James'" Ostuary.
the only claims to it are from those that hold it...
The research done on it says it is from the 5th century, that would be 500 years AFTER Jesus.
Believe the voracity of the claims if you want, I'll keep my eyes on Jesus and not worry about what some "snake oil" a church is trying to sell me.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.