Records Counter a Critic of Kerry

Washington Post ^ | 8/19/04 | Michael Dobbs

[Callahan]

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

[Steven W.]

you're right - WHAT AN ADMISSION BY THE COMPOST!

Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

So the Compost has declared that the SwiftVet's version of the story was correct - Kerry sped away after the mine on the PF3 boat and returned later. Gee, sounds like what the SwiftVets have been saying all along! and it certainly doesn't mesh with Kerry's LIEs

Also of interest:

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

As I recall, O'Neill has repeatedly alleged that Kerry DID file the report for this particular episode and why they've always wanted to see that document and why Kerry refuses to release it! For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as

[tobyhill]

Thurlow would not have known about the attributing statement(s) to his award unless he was told. When they present the Bronze Star, they only give a generalization of the award, something like,"for your bravery and courage under duress, we are presenting you with a Bronze Star". I don't even think the Post can guarantee this came from Thurlow's files. They could have just ask for Thurlow's medal citations and the achieves pulled it from a data base and on the reason line it says,"Bravery under fire"? It wouldn't be the first time The Post stretched for a story.

[VOA]

yes this is a hit from the Kerry campaign - they gave reporter the doc they wanted
him to find (and which Kerry had written the officer up for, behind his back &
unbeknownst to him)

Poor Kerry. You'd think your Swiftboat buddies would appreciate a good fib (told without
their knowledge, as they wouldn't have that Kerry gift for word-craft)...so that
it would be a "more medals the merrier!".

What a bunch of peon ingrates!
(I'm sure that's Kerry's thought!)
(end sarcasm)

[CedarDave]

I was there a few months before him, but we hadn't learned how to play the medals game.

(It would be amusing, except that so many fine young men in all branches of the service, especially army and marines, lost their limbs or lives there. Therefore, it makes the games played by Kerry [and by any who joined him] and the lies he made up, particularly disgusting.)

[MJY1288]

ROFLMAO,

"Joe Klein" writing a book on John Kerry would be as objective as Lanny Davis writing a biography on Bill Clinton

"Michael Kranish" might be a little questionable considering his wife works for John Kerry

"Douglass Brinkley" has already admitted he wrote the book on Kerry primarily from John Kerry's own recollection

SNPES has gone down a few notches in my opinion :-)

[MJY1288]

ROFLMAO,

"Joe Klein" writing a book on John Kerry would be as objective as Lanny Davis writing a biography on Bill Clinton

"Michael Kranish" might be a little questionable considering his wife works for John Kerry

"Douglass Brinkley" has already admitted he wrote the book on Kerry primarily from John Kerry's own recollection

SNPES has gone down a few notches in my opinion :-)

[cake_crumb]

"But it's not being spun that way. I hope that I'm dead wrong, but I fear that the press will take this one issue and use it to undermine the credibility of the entire Swift Boat Vets' argument. The media will definitely try; hopefully they won't succeed."

They will. The press is going to lie in order to discredit the Stift boat vets while AT THE SAME TIME protect Kerry and keep HIS records HIDDEN.

[SunkenCiv]

Headline is spin. Intent is to smear.

"For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

Two other Swift boat skippers who were direct participants in the March 13, 1969, mine explosion on the Bay Hap, Jack Chenoweth and Richard Pees, have said they do not remember coming under "enemy fire." A fourth commander, Don Droz, who was one of Kerry's closest friends in Vietnam, was killed in action a month later."

[MJY1288]

Sorry for the double post :-(

[carl in alaska]

The FOIA works both ways. Just wait until a conservative newspaper looks into Kerry's Navy records and uncovers stuff like this: Navy had to virtually straightjacket Kerry.

[Steven W.]

Maybe this thread can be forward to Michael Dobbs at the WaPo and he can get some in-depth answers from Kerry?

He is not interested in getting to the bottom of this. It is a strategic hit from the Kerry campaign ... but like much of what the SwiftVets expose, there are embedded truths in everything that perpetually damn Kerry's LIEs about these events.

Note how the Post "reporter" came to write this story - he's told there's this particular document and is told the spin with which Kerry campaign reps (could be somebody in his "band of brothers" or, more likely, their politicos at their press conference recently). They request that document via FOIA knowing exactly where to file and everything. Then they report the spin they're given (that's the way these things work with major media / lib reporter types) but, in so doing, they have to present the facts ... and the facts, as they're being dissembled on this thread, reaffirm & support everything the SwiftVets have been saying and refute Kerry's accounts even further!

[traviskicks]

"The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders."

According to http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php
only 1 of 20 of his fellow boat commanders support him and from what I remember only a few (5-6?) are not taking a position. That means at the minimum, 2/3rds of his fellow commanders on in this group or have signed affidats etc..

The Post's use of "majority" is very misleading.

As for the rest of the article... The Post isn't clear what the other vet (Thume?) really thought. It throws out that he says his own medal might be 'fraudlent', but that the writeup could ahve been written by kerry. Settles nothing, but does weaken their claim because of his seeming uncertainty. To me, whole article seemed 'choppy' and didn't 'flow'.

I'm going to have to see more of this come out from both sides before I take an opinion on this.

[kabar]

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

Interesting that the WP immediately goes after Thurlow and were able to get his records so quickly. The point is that Thurlow didn't write up his own report and did deserve the Bronze Star. In Unfit for Command, it was Thurlow who tried to rein in PCF 3, which was going around in circles with a dazed, unconscious crew onboard. He was thrown into the water on the first attempt to board the PCF 3 and then later brought it to a stop after it was on a sandbar.

I believe Thurlow when he said he believed he received the medal for saving people and paid no attention to the wording about being under fire. Thurlow certainly deserved a medal more than Kerry. Hopefully, the SBVFT will respond. The battle is now joined.

[Protect the Bill of Rights]

from:
Massachusetts Veterans for Kerry Edwards

http://veteransforkerry.home.att.net/truth_about__slime_boat_sailors_.htm

The TRUTH about SLIME BOAT SAILORS for BUSH

This is part of the Official Kerry Site as noted by comparing contact info. I can't post actual page. If someone knows how, I'd appreciate it.

_______________________________________________

.........The ad continues with a statement from the NEXT talking head….LARRY THURLOW, who says: “….When the Chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.” My Thurlow ALSO, was never a crewmate of John Kerry, but he, and HIS BOAT were also entrapped in that ambush on that fateful date in March of 1969. The Official After-Action Report states: “Larry Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-51 over (to the disabled) PCF-3, and by and hopped aboard to offer assistance. The boat was in shambles but they were still returning fire and could not therefore assess any damage” The Report continues….“ALL BOATS RECEIVED HEAVY A/W [automatic weapons] & S/A [small arms] FROM BOTH BANKS…ALL BOATS RETURNED FIRE…PCF-94 [Kerry’s boat] PICKED UP SPECIAL FORCES ADVISOR WHO WENT OVERBOARD. PCF-94 TOWED PCF-3.” [U.S. Navy After Action Report:)

Did you all catch that last part? Despite the withering gunfire, despite being wounded, and AFTER saving the life of the Special Forces Guy…Lt. Kerry…Commanding PCF-94, hooked up a tow line to the disabled PCF-3, and TOWED it to (eventual) safety! It does NOT state that Lt. Thurlow took on this task! Who is he ACTUALLY talking about…when he says “when the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry”?.....

______________________________________________________

Say what we want about Kerry, but he is not stupid. Ruthless, yes. Stupid, no. He has had a plan since before Viet Nam. No one has been able to bring him down. No one.

This may be part of the Kerry stategy. The above info (and much more) is on that web page. Once again, comparing contact info IT IS PART OF THE OFFICIAL KERRY EDWARDS ORGANIZATION.

Kerry has been very quiet. How many of us believe the Washington Post said "Hey, Let's file a FOIA on Thurlow!" Someone is feeding them this info. Where to look. Whose files to request.

Even if he did not anticipate the attention the Swiftees has gotten, he may have used it as a way to neutralize ANY charges against him, from Viet Nam to VVAW, to his Senate record.

[Callahan]

Good summary. I want to know why we can't get the after-action reports from the other commanders? Or is there only one for the whole incident?

[rolling_stone]

how about requesting a copy of the WP FOIA request(under FOIA) and all documents sent to them...LOL...

[the Real fifi]

Please note Thurlow said he didn't prepare the report or see it..

[DaveMSmith]

I'd bet that there are after action reports filed by each skipper.

[1066AD]

Amazing debunk of JK's actions .. from leftists !

[sarasmom]

LOL!
Some old style reporter type might want to address FOIA requests to Navy archive resources on Guam.
Just for the S&G factor...