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Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Washington Post ^ | 8/19/04 | Michael Dobbs

Posted on 08/18/2004 8:24:34 PM PDT by Callahan

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: foia; kerry; larrythurlow; michaeldobbs; militaryrecord; swiftboatveterans; swiftboatvets; thurlow; wp
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To: Interesting Times

Ping for you to get your ammunition ready.


51 posted on 08/18/2004 8:40:39 PM PDT by arasina (So there.)
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To: Callahan

You generally don't read your "atta boys".


52 posted on 08/18/2004 8:40:53 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Proud to be a Reagan Republican)
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To: carl in alaska
No, I think the language in Thurlow's military records is consistent with all prior statements from the Swift Vets

I agree that it is. But it's not being spun that way. I hope that I'm dead wrong, but I fear that the press will take this one issue and use it to undermine the credibility of the entire Swift Boat Vets' argument. The media will definitely try; hopefully they won't succeed.

53 posted on 08/18/2004 8:41:21 PM PDT by Numbers Guy
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To: Fredgoblu

Excellent point.


54 posted on 08/18/2004 8:41:37 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Callahan
It sounds as though Kerry wrote the after action report and attributed Thurlows name to it as a co-commander and then it was placed in Thurlows files. Let's see who wrote the report? Let's see the maintenance reports of the boats and see if any had bullet fragments were embedded in them?
55 posted on 08/18/2004 8:42:22 PM PDT by tobyhill (The war on terrorism is not for the weak!)
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To: FairOpinion
It shows the hypocrisy of the media, they are going after the records of others, instead of demanding that Kerry release his records...I doubt that they have to go after the Swiftvets records - the 'rats put together their little "Brown Books" of personal information on all the Swifties, so the press doesn't even have to break a sweat to dig up questionnable information on them.....
56 posted on 08/18/2004 8:42:26 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: Rokke
Unless he wrote the after action report

The are NOT talking about an after action report. They are talking about a bronze star citation which could have easily been embellished as it went up chain of command.

57 posted on 08/18/2004 8:42:38 PM PDT by Henk
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To: yhwhsman
For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

This statement also supports what the Swifties have been saying: Kerry fled the scene only to return later to pick up Rassmann. He wasn't around when the other boats came to the aid of the mined boat.

58 posted on 08/18/2004 8:42:40 PM PDT by CedarDave (Viet Nam Vet, USN Coastal Div. 13, Cat Lo, XO USCG patrol boat, 1968: No atrocities on my watch!)
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To: Callahan

This shows once again that Kerry turned in a phony report.


59 posted on 08/18/2004 8:42:45 PM PDT by doug from upland (John Kerry is a sports fan like Lorena Bobbitt is a surgeon)
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To: Callahan
DON'T LIE - READ THE ARTICLE!

This account SUPPORTS THE SWIFTVETS!

They have always claimed Kerry misrepresented reports about these incidents

Has not seen the citation before? How do you get a medal and not know what it's for. He had to know this existed?

Read the article! It says he was under the impression it was solely awarded for his actions that day picking up the guys out of the water (while Kerry had run away). He never knew Kerry had written up the extra stuff about enemy fire (5000 yards - that's 2-1/2 miles!). He says if he'd known the award was issued fraudulently - as he now believes it was given the LIEs incorporated by John Kerry, then he no longer wants it!

60 posted on 08/18/2004 8:42:49 PM PDT by Steven W.
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To: MojoWire

I ordered it online from http://www.booksamillion.com today, said it will ship in a couple of days.


61 posted on 08/18/2004 8:43:12 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: FairOpinion

THE FLOTILLA WAS NOT, REPEATE NOT, FIRED UPON


62 posted on 08/18/2004 8:43:20 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: DaveMSmith
There would be write ups of the damage to the boats -- including bullet holes, and as I said earlier there were none.

I'm still waiting for my copy of the book, but I seem to recall that O'Neill talked about write-ups in one of his interiews.

63 posted on 08/18/2004 8:43:30 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Proud to be a Reagan Republican)
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To: NavySEAL F-16

Has anyone considered that Thurlow got his award because of the same report that Kerry filed to get his own? Actually, according to my husband who was in Vietnam, it was not uncommon for Officers to write up reports for each other and puff things up to get awards. Max Clelland's injury was apparently not combat related either. Kerry is probably not alone in getting awards that should not have been given if the truth had been known. But Kerry then used his awards to get out early and go home to slime the guys who were left behind. JMHO


64 posted on 08/18/2004 8:43:54 PM PDT by MistyCA
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To: doug from upland
you read the article! ;)

The fact the DemoncRATs are out right away with this, as it comes out, with their spin, demonstrates this is an orchestrated fiasco between the Kerry campaign and their supporters at the Washington Post!

65 posted on 08/18/2004 8:44:17 PM PDT by Steven W.
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To: Callahan
Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

If military records are so useful for clearing things up, why doesn't the Post demand John Fraud Kerry's military personnel records?

66 posted on 08/18/2004 8:44:20 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Drug prohibition laws help fund terrorism.)
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To: FairOpinion

Lately, I have been thinking and wondering. WHY are we not scared for our life? When I heard somebody the other day on C-Span defend the media and say, "naw....its always been like this..." then I knew we have something to be afraid of. Have had this nagging feeling since Jan. 04. That somebody other than an american is pulling our strings....


67 posted on 08/18/2004 8:45:25 PM PDT by onyx eyes
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To: Callahan

This doesn't change the fact that Kerrys scratches were self inflicted. Just like Max Cleland blew his own limbs off with his own grenade.


68 posted on 08/18/2004 8:45:53 PM PDT by Ron in Acreage (Kerry is a threat to national security)
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To: Callahan

"But Thurlow's military records..."

What records, specifically? His after action report? His commendation paperwork? What, exactly, references the enemy fire? Why are we not told, exactly? Space? There was space to sneak in the source of funding for the swiftboat ad. Why do we not learn exactly what the source of the enemy fire quotation is?

If it's the citation paperwork, well....duh! That's the whole premise of the citation. That's the whole thing under dispute.

I swear, "reporters" are so transparent.


69 posted on 08/18/2004 8:45:54 PM PDT by HarryCaul
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

GOODIE, GOODIE...Now lets see all the reports from all the guys that were on kerry's boat. Are they supporting him because they were in kahoots with Kerry to spin the truth in the after action reports???


70 posted on 08/18/2004 8:46:33 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: yhwhsman
For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat.

This is getting to be fun.. so Kerry did indeed speed away - and was it his acceleration that caused Rasmussen to fall overboard as some have said ?

71 posted on 08/18/2004 8:47:35 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: Callahan

my guess is kerry or Rassman covered their butts by writting up Thurlow...

here is an interesting article someone might want to post if it hasn't been posted already:

http://www.rmf.net/cockburn07292004.html

Kerry's first mission as part of the Phoenix program was to ferry a Provincial Reconnaissance Unit of South Vietnamese soldiers, which would have been led by either a Green Beret or CIA officer. After off-loading the unit Kerry hid his Swift boat in a mangrove backwater. Two hours later a red flare told them that the PRU wanted an emergency "extraction". Kerry's boat picked up the PRU team, plus two prisoners. The leader of the PRU team told Kerry that while they were kidnapping the two villagers (one of them a young woman) from their hut, they'd seen four people in a sampan and promptly killed them. The two prisoners were "body-snatched" as part of a regular schedule of such seizures in the victims would be taken to An Thoi for interrogation and torture.


72 posted on 08/18/2004 8:47:49 PM PDT by rolling_stone
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To: NavySEAL F-16

As I understand it doesn't both the silver and bronze star medal also attach a "V" for valor if it was awarded for being under fire at the time? I haven't seen the "V" mentioned for either of Kerry's medals.


73 posted on 08/18/2004 8:48:20 PM PDT by Texasforever (God can send you to hell but he can't sue you. He can't find a lawyer.)
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To: onyx eyes
I have had the same feeling.. since Jan 04.

I trust it's God.

74 posted on 08/18/2004 8:48:35 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (When you think LIAR, TRAITOR, FRAUD or COWARD... think JOHN KERRY!)
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To: Ron in Acreage
Just like Max Cleland blew his own limbs off with his own grenade.

Was it his own grenade, or one dropped accidently by another soldier from a helo as Cleland was going on a beer run?

75 posted on 08/18/2004 8:48:50 PM PDT by CedarDave (Viet Nam Vet, USN Coastal Div. 13, Cat Lo, XO USCG patrol boat, 1968: No atrocities on my watch!)
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To: Viet-Boat-Rider
Amazon shipped UFC to me today by UPS
5-9 business days
76 posted on 08/18/2004 8:49:03 PM PDT by NutCrackerBoy
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To: MistyCA
I have and this is one of the points that O'Neill has tried to bring out when he's been able to talk.

By the time these awards are usually handed out, commands have changed, units have changed, you're probably at a different base. Thurlow could have easily thought this particular award was from a different encounter and that dates/locale had been confused.
77 posted on 08/18/2004 8:49:34 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Proud to be a Reagan Republican)
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To: NavySEAL F-16

I have a feeling that this is ging to get REAL nasty, in all directions, and kerry is gonna be stuck RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of it while Bush whistels down the yellow brick road.


78 posted on 08/18/2004 8:51:48 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: HarryCaul

If it's the citation paperwork, well....duh! That's the whole premise of the citation. That's the whole thing under dispute.

Excellent point if it was in his citation the post would have said so...!!!!


79 posted on 08/18/2004 8:51:58 PM PDT by rolling_stone
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To: Callahan
"Damn. This is definitely the biggest hit the Swifties have taken so far. More than enough to get the rest of the MSM to continue to ignore the story. Interesting that the WP went to lengths to get Thurlow's records, but fail to mention that Kerry won't release the rest of his."

I agree. Damn. Why don't they get KERRY'S records? And what about Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia hoax(es), debunked 5 ways from Sunday??

80 posted on 08/18/2004 8:52:20 PM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: Callahan
Damn. This is definitely the biggest hit the Swifties have taken so far.

Really? My, you're easy.

I'm going to bet my house that this is a distortion. I'll now read Freeper comments that demonstrate it.

Buck up. The Swift Vets haven't lied, but the LSM is being exposed as hounding like the hounds of hell any good and decent person (Swift Boat Vets and President Bush, etc) and leaving the despicable, perhaps even evil, liars alone.

Now, off I go, confident that I am right and you need to know who is on the side of right and not to believe the likes of the WaPo.

81 posted on 08/18/2004 8:53:02 PM PDT by cyncooper ("We will fear no evil...And we will prevail")
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To: CedarDave

I,m pretty sure it was his own. I believe it fell off his belt as he was climbing aboard the helo. Ann Coulter wrote about it a few months ago.


82 posted on 08/18/2004 8:53:07 PM PDT by Ron in Acreage (Kerry is a threat to national security)
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To: MistyCA
you have it exactly right here:

Has anyone considered that Thurlow got his award because of the same report that Kerry filed to get his own?

Thurlow didn't know what Kerry was doing behind his back & that's exactly what he & they have all said is at the heart of this matter!

Note the Compost is directed to this particular record and given misleading they spin they to propogate with this article rather than any acknowledgment that Alston has admitted he wasn't there for these same incidents as he led folks to believe when he appeared on ABC and the DemoncRAT National Convention.

83 posted on 08/18/2004 8:53:19 PM PDT by Steven W.
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To: NavySEAL F-16

Damn, I missed out getting any medals because I didn't shoot myself in the foot (or ass), and never wrote up any medal reports after returning fire from the river banks. Should have taken lessons from JFnK; hell, I was at the same base as he was for part of the time.


84 posted on 08/18/2004 8:53:46 PM PDT by CedarDave (Viet Nam Vet, USN Coastal Div. 13, Cat Lo, XO USCG patrol boat, 1968: No atrocities on my watch!)
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To: Ron in Acreage

READ POST 78


85 posted on 08/18/2004 8:53:51 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: Viet-Boat-Rider
V Device: The bronze "V" identifies the award as resulting from an act of combat heroism or "VALOR", thus distinguishing it from meritorious achievement awards.<

If Kerry's medals do not include the "V" device it would appear that he was no "hero" according to the regulations.

86 posted on 08/18/2004 8:53:54 PM PDT by Texasforever (God can send you to hell but he can't sue you. He can't find a lawyer.)
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To: Texasforever

Yes, you are correct. Thurlow thought his was awarded for bringing the grounded boat back to base, which leads me to believe he never even read the citation and if he did thought that it was for another action. A V has never been mentioned that I am aware of.

If they were able and interested enough to get Thurlow's records, why haven't they even tried to get Kerry's.

They could just ask him to sign the 180.


87 posted on 08/18/2004 8:54:06 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Proud to be a Reagan Republican)
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To: cake_crumb
And what about Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia hoax(es), debunked 5 ways from Sunday??

Has this been mentioned in the Washington Post yet?

88 posted on 08/18/2004 8:54:09 PM PDT by what's up
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To: NavySEAL F-16

Just as I thought...distortion.

Clymers

(thank you for highlighting, I was too lazy to go read the whole thing, figuring it was bs anyway)


89 posted on 08/18/2004 8:54:14 PM PDT by cyncooper ("We will fear no evil...And we will prevail")
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To: NavySEAL F-16
Correct, The damage report for this incident is in "Unfit for Command" and there is no mention of Bullet holes, it says there was two windows blown out, electrical damage to the radio and damage to the hydraulic steering to John Kerry's boat..... YET it was John Kerry's boat who towed the crippled Swift Boat away from the scene
90 posted on 08/18/2004 8:54:39 PM PDT by MJY1288 (John Kerry Says he Would Conduct a More Thoughtful and Sensitive War on Terror)
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To: Callahan

Where'd you go? Are you reading this thread? Are you starting to understand why the WP story is just so much more crap?


91 posted on 08/18/2004 8:54:46 PM PDT by Rokke
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To: Rokke
If Kerry wrote the after action report, and said they were fired on, but no one else remembers them being fired at, than either Kerry remembers something they don't, or Kerry lied.

On Brit Hume's show, John O'Neill was asked about this because of the 'official military records' regarding the action. O'Neill said that, as the Commander, John Kerry likely wrote the action report up and sent it up the line. Of course the citation for the other folks would mention enemy fire because that's what the action report, written by Kerry, said, and it is all the guys in the offices had to depend on when awarding the citations.

92 posted on 08/18/2004 8:55:22 PM PDT by SuziQ (Bush in 2004-Because we MUST!!!)
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To: Texasforever

(I believe) Kerry's medals got "V"'s as I recall hearing from O'Neill


93 posted on 08/18/2004 8:55:31 PM PDT by Steven W.
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To: CedarDave
DAVE,

THERE WASN'T ANY MEDALS LEFT BY THE TIME YOU GOT THERE, KERRY & HIS CREW TOOK THEM ALL.

94 posted on 08/18/2004 8:55:32 PM PDT by Viet-Boat-Rider ((KERRY IS A NARCISSISTIC LIAR, GOLDBRICKER, AND TRAITOR!))
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To: Fredgoblu
Yeah...but you know what...

The media just confirmed that these guys served with Kerry.

Oh, yes...good point.

95 posted on 08/18/2004 8:56:21 PM PDT by cyncooper ("We will fear no evil...And we will prevail")
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To: FairOpinion

Ding Ding Ding!#50
I think we have a winner!


96 posted on 08/18/2004 8:56:32 PM PDT by sarasmom
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To: Ron in Acreage

Hmmm. You're probably right. In any event, it went off when Cleland reached down to pick it up.


97 posted on 08/18/2004 8:56:42 PM PDT by CedarDave (Viet Nam Vet, USN Coastal Div. 13, Cat Lo, XO USCG patrol boat, 1968: No atrocities on my watch!)
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To: Steven W.; The Bandit
Some enterprising blogger might follow the Compost example and file for other relevant docs via FOIA:

The Post filed an independent request for the documents with the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, which is the central repository for veterans' records. The documents were faxed to The Post by officials at the records center yesterday.

98 posted on 08/18/2004 8:57:03 PM PDT by rolling_stone
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To: Steven W.

Yes I just looked up his Bronze Star citation. He was awarded the "V".


99 posted on 08/18/2004 8:57:25 PM PDT by Texasforever (God can send you to hell but he can't sue you. He can't find a lawyer.)
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To: the_Watchman
Thurlow did not author his own document

That's the key. Kerry did.

100 posted on 08/18/2004 8:57:40 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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