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Immigrants Face Loss of Licenses in ID Crackdown
NY Times ^ | 8/18/04 | Nina Bernstein

Posted on 08/18/2004 9:20:22 PM PDT by NormsRevenge

Legislatures across the country have been wrestling publicly with a hot-button issue: whether to make it harder or easier for illegal immigrants to be licensed as drivers. The struggle to reconcile public security, road safety and the reality of millions of illegal immigrant workers has led to fierce disagreement and widely different laws - even as the 9/11 commission has urged the adoption of national standards.

In New York, home to an estimated 500,000 of the nation's 10 million illegal immigrants, there has been little public debate. But behind the scenes, officials at the State Department of Motor Vehicles have begun a crackdown on license fraud that will take away the driver's licenses of as many as 200,000 immigrants who cannot prove that they are here legally.

There was scant reaction in January when the state started mailing out the first of a half-million letters threatening to suspend the licenses of drivers whose Social Security numbers did not match federal records. Fear and protest spread in places like Westchester County and Staten Island as the letters reached longtime immigrant drivers who depend on their cars to work as landscapers, construction workers or housecleaners.

And the outcry grew as immigrant advocates learned of cases in which bewildered immigrants who responded in person to motor vehicle offices had their licenses confiscated on the spot for lack of a Social Security number.

Today the protests, and explanations by the crackdown's authors, will be presented in Manhattan at the first public hearing on the policy, by the State Assembly's Transportation Committee.

It is late in the process: though only about 600 licenses have been suspended so far, state officials said that in November, a second wave of notices would begin suspending the licenses of those who have not responded, at the rate of 4,000 a day.

State officials say 250,000 licenses are in line to be suspended, and immigrant advocates estimate that 200,000 of these are held by immigrants unable to satisfy the state's requirement.

State officials say they are not aiming the effort at immigrants, just seizing on new technology to enforce an old law - a 1995 requirement that the state collect the Social Security numbers of all driver's license applicants. That measure was added in many states to improve child-support enforcement, as part of the nation's welfare overhaul. But New York is the only state where motor vehicle officials are using enhanced computer abilities to verify all the Social Security numbers collected over the years.

The results have been eye-opening, Raymond P. Martinez, the state motor vehicles commissioner, said in an interview. "

The public is going to be shocked when they find out how many people's Social Security numbers were used by other people unbeknownst to them," he said, putting the figure at more than 100,000, including one number that was used by 57 people.

Among those whose licenses have already been suspended are United States citizens who were hiding criminal driving records behind multiple identities, he said. And in an era of terror alerts, when driver's licenses are used to enter buildings, he added, "We now have the ability to verify who is who."

But critics say the enforcement will fall mainly on illegal immigrants who are hard-working members of society - and to local D.M.V. clerks with no understanding of complicated immigration laws.

"Nobody has considered the bureaucratic nightmare that they're creating," said Margaret Stock, an associate professor of national security law at the United States Military Academy at West Point, who is writing a paper on the driver's license issue. "It's actually harmful to national security to deny licenses to people on the basis of immigration status."

Ms. Stock, who is also a lieutenant colonel in the military police of the Army Reserves, said there was a better chance of tracking a terrorist with a driver's license than one without. Moreover, she said, "immigration status is a moving target - someone legal today can be illegal tomorrow and someone illegal today can be legal tomorrow," so motor vehicle offices can end up issuing and denying licenses to the wrong people.

Yet thousands of illegal immigrants denied driver's licenses will continue to drive, she said, and probably add to the number of hit-and-run accidents and uninsured drivers already on the road.

The real problem, she said, is that since 9/11, officials have been trying to turn the driver's license into "a backdoor national identity card." But, she added, "driver's licenses are really about road safety."

Because of the heightened fear of detention or deportation these days, it remains uncertain whether illegal immigrants will come forward to testify at today's hearing at 250 Broadway, said Gouri Sadwhani, executive director of the New York Civic Participation Project, an immigrant and labor organizing group. But two people whose licenses were abruptly seized by a motor vehicle clerk shared their accounts with a reporter on the condition that only their first names be published.

Luis, 34, a construction worker who has long been employed by a Connecticut subcontractor building multimillion-dollar homes in places like Greenwich, said he was so alarmed by the letter he received in January that he drove from his home in Port Chester, N.Y., to D.M.V. headquarters in Albany.

Trying to prove his identity, he presented his taxpayer ID number, credit card, rent receipts, utility bills and car insurance. But he said a clerk who demanded a Social Security number took his license and refused to return it. "I started pleading," he recalled. "I said I need my license - I need my license to work, I need my license to support my family and I need my license to live," he recalled.

But after threatening him with detention for putting the wrong number on his application years ago - probably his tax ID number, he said - the clerk walked away. State motor vehicle officials said that they could not discuss the case without Luis's full name.

"It's like the D.M.V. has cut off my arms and legs," he said last week in the immaculate apartment that he, his wife and their 3-year-old son shared with three other immigrants from Ecuador. His earnings, which must support two children left with grandparents in Ecuador, as well as his family here, typically ran $20,000 to $25,000 a year, he said. But they have dwindled since his boss learned that he had lost his license.

Still, Luis said, there is no going back. In Ecuador, he and his wife were so desperate for work to support their children that they left them behind and walked much of the way to the United States.

And he is still driving. He carefully steered his old minivan past the flashing lights of a parked police car on a rain-slicked street in Port Chester on Friday evening, as he worried aloud that his insurance would soon be canceled.

But Gloria, a Colombian woman who has lived in Queens since 1991, said she had not driven since the January day when her license was confiscated at the Whitestone motor vehicle office. She had been a licensed driver for 11 years, she said, selling Mary Kay cosmetics from her car to help support her daughter, an American citizen by birth, while working weekends as a baby-sitter for a family of lawyers living on Sutton Place in Manhattan.

"I feel humiliated because I think there's no reason to take it from me," she said. "I was a good driver; I never got a ticket for a red light or passed a stop sign. I always had insurance."

Like many immigrants in what some call a gray zone of legality, she has a petition for a green card pending, sponsored by her 76-year-old mother, now a lawful permanent resident. But under present immigration rules and backlogs, family sponsorship can take many years to bridge the gap between citizens and unlawful immigrants in the same family. Meanwhile, Gloria has no way to fulfill the state's requirements to get back her license.

The hardest part has not only been the loss of earnings - about $1,000 a month in cosmetic sales - but the effect on her mother and her daughter, now 12, she said. Only last week, her mother, who is frail and speaks no English, begged her to accompany her on a flight to Florida to visit relatives. But without a driver's license as a photo ID, it was too risky.

"My daughter was crying and saying please don't go," Gloria said. "She feels so afraid about what happened to me now."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections; US: New York; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aliens; crackdown; face; illegalaliens; immigrantlist; immigrants; immigration; licenses; loss
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1 posted on 08/18/2004 9:20:23 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 4.1O dana super trac pak; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; ...

ping


2 posted on 08/18/2004 9:27:58 PM PDT by gubamyster
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To: NormsRevenge
Why is the headline not "Illegals face deportation in Crackdown?" Taking away their licenses is nice but why are they in this country when they have no right?
3 posted on 08/18/2004 9:31:59 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: NormsRevenge

That person whose number was used by so many people may have a much better retirement than he thought.


4 posted on 08/18/2004 9:40:16 PM PDT by DLfromthedesert (I was elected in AZ as an alt delegate to the Convention. I'M GOING TO NY)
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To: gubamyster
Well, we are always learning something new from the New York Times. I had no idea that denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens endangered national security.
5 posted on 08/18/2004 9:42:00 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: asmith92008

I've been a multiple lines insurance agent for 35 years, and it is my belief almost 100% of illegal immigrants drive without insurance.


6 posted on 08/18/2004 9:42:18 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc
They can get insurance in Mexico. That's just a BS excuse.
7 posted on 08/18/2004 9:43:40 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: NormsRevenge
And the outcry grew as immigrant advocates learned of cases in which bewildered immigrants who responded in person to motor vehicle offices had their licenses confiscated on the spot for lack of a Social Security number.

They should have been arrested on the spot.

8 posted on 08/18/2004 9:45:35 PM PDT by primeval patriot (I'll stay in cowtown, I'll stick around)
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To: NormsRevenge

I tried, but I can't read more than 1 P of the NYT and want to throw my laptop out the window...Communist freaking bastards.


9 posted on 08/18/2004 9:47:14 PM PDT by ApesForEvolution (DemocRATS are communists and want to destroy America only to replace it with the USSA)
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To: Malesherbes

They blatantly subvert our country's interests at every turn...it's been that way for over a 1/2 dozen decades. Where is the Media's BBB? I want to file a fraud complaint...


10 posted on 08/18/2004 9:49:00 PM PDT by ApesForEvolution (DemocRATS are communists and want to destroy America only to replace it with the USSA)
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To: NormsRevenge

It looks like this reporter forgot to interview the victims who had their social security numbers stolen from them by these thieves. I imagine they have some stories to tell.


11 posted on 08/18/2004 9:49:30 PM PDT by texastoo (a "has-been" Republican)
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To: asmith92008

The New York Times is a very sensitive paper. That's what they think "immigrants" are. Isn't that sweet?


12 posted on 08/18/2004 9:52:13 PM PDT by Luke21 (Christ is wonderful)
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To: All
suspend the licenses of drivers whose Social Security numbers did not match federal records

This December the federal government is suppose to have its social security number validation system, SSNVS, up and running on-line.

Employers will have no excuse. Citizens will be able to ask businesses, did you validate your employees' SSNs? Is it legal for them to work in the U.S.? Are they violating ID fraud laws, as well as immigration laws, with their stolen / phony SSNs?

State agencies will be able to make instant validations, also.

It's been 18 years in the making (since the 1986 immigration "reform" law).

ILLEGAL alien advocates are "troubled." Look for another 18 years of delays -- but if it actually is implemented then we citizens will be able to express our opinions where it counts, in the pocket book.

13 posted on 08/18/2004 9:53:18 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (Benedict Arnold was a hero for both sides in the same war, too!)
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To: NormsRevenge
But Gloria, a Colombian woman who has lived in Queens since 1991, said she had not driven since the January day when her license was confiscated at the Whitestone motor vehicle office. She had been a licensed driver for 11 years, she said, selling Mary Kay cosmetics from her car to help support her daughter, an American citizen by birth, while working weekends as a baby-sitter for a family of lawyers living on Sutton Place in Manhattan.

Like many immigrants in what some call a gray zone of legality, she has a petition for a green card pending, sponsored by her 76-year-old mother, now a lawful permanent resident. But under present immigration rules and backlogs, family sponsorship can take many years to bridge the gap between citizens and unlawful immigrants in the same family.

What a proud day for America.

"Humans are humans. We all wish for a better life for our families and children. The blood that has soaked into the earth of foreign lands while defending our freedom is all of one color. We are unique...we are a country founded on immigration. We are a country of immigrants. That is what makes us strong. That is what allows us to move forward. This is the American way." - Ronald Reagan

"Can we doubt that only a Divine Providence placed this land, this island of freedom, here as a refuge for all those people in the world who yearn to breathe freely: Jews and Christians enduring persecution behind the Iron Curtain, the boat people of Southeast Asia, of Cuba and Haiti, the victims of drought and famine in Africa, the freedom fighters of Afghanistan and our own countrymen held in savage captivity." - Reagan at the 1980 Republican convention

"Our whole country is made up of people who came here from someplace else, either the individuals themselves or, like myself -- in my case it was grandparents, others it's their parents -- but we represent the cultures and the diversity of the whole world. And we've come together in what some people called a melting pot and created a whole new breed of human being called an American. And I have to say, I think America's great success in the world has been the result of this diversity and this understanding and coming together of such diverse peoples. And I just have to say that our Hispanic Americans -- their contribution to America is not surpassed by that of any other people. They have brought a great warmth, and they have brought great traditions of family. In our wars, they have brought great service and great heroism and loyalty to this country. And all I would like to say to them is, God bless them all, and vaya con Dios." - Reagan September 13, 1985

“I’ve spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don’t know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and heart to get there. That’s how I saw it, and see it still.” Farewell Address to the Nation, January 11, 1989

14 posted on 08/18/2004 10:00:13 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: NormsRevenge

In further news, critics at the DNC fear these possible illegal immigrants will not be able to drive to the polls on election day.


15 posted on 08/18/2004 10:03:31 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: Once-Ler

We all want that....its the massive illegal migration we are against.


16 posted on 08/18/2004 10:05:59 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: NormsRevenge
"officials at the State Department of Motor Vehicles have begun a crackdown on license fraud that will take away the driver's licenses of as many as 200,000 immigrants who cannot prove that they are here legally."

I'll believe it when I see it.

"State officials say 250,000 licenses are in line to be suspended"

So what's the hold up?

"But critics say the enforcement will fall mainly on illegal immigrants who are hard-working members of society..."

But critics say the enforcement will fall mainly on ILLEGAL immigrants...

"- and to local D.M.V. clerks with no understanding of complicated immigration laws."

Illegal = AGAINST the LAW! What is so d**n complicated about that?

"It's actually harmful to national security to deny licenses to people on the basis of immigration status."

Not if you deport them.

"typically ran $20,000 to $25,000 a year"

Wages no American will work for , huh?

Okay, I get it. This is another one of those stories where we are supposed to feel sorry for the illegals. I have a very hard time working up a whole lot of sympathy for those who circumvent our laws and take our jobs and our resources and who cheat OUR children and then when they get in trouble for it, we're supposed to make the trouble go away. I do feel a little sorry for the children born to these irresponsible lawbreakers. It isn't their fault and it's too bad that their lives are disrupted by their parents lack of thought and consideration for them. But it's a matter of priorities. We need to take care of own before we try to take care of the rest of the world.

17 posted on 08/18/2004 10:09:10 PM PDT by sweetliberty ("A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left." (Eccl. 10:2))
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To: NormsRevenge
You don't have to read this article. All you have to do is watch a cow drop a pile in winter and watch it steam in the cold air to get the same experience.

18 posted on 08/18/2004 10:14:35 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: NormsRevenge
I have a relative whose license was held up for a year by the state of NY because he had dropped the word junior from his business documents. Because junior was on his birth certificate, but not on any other piece of ID, DMV refused to grant him a license. It took the involvement of a state senator to unravel the red-tape.

Who knew that a fake SS card would have been the speedy answer to his problems.

19 posted on 08/18/2004 10:15:44 PM PDT by CaptainK
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To: Once-Ler
"And I just have to say that our Hispanic Americans -- their contribution to America is not surpassed by that of any other people. "

If you are an illegal alien, you are most emphatically not a "Hispanic-American." You are a criminal. Here's a suggestion for everyone whose heart bleeds for criminals: watch your own kids and ow your own grass.
20 posted on 08/18/2004 10:16:58 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: Malesherbes
"I had no idea that denying drivers licenses to illegal aliens endangered national security."

Just listen to the liberals. You will learn something new every day. < /sarcasm >

21 posted on 08/18/2004 10:18:08 PM PDT by sweetliberty ("A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left." (Eccl. 10:2))
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To: TheLion
We all want that....its the massive illegal migration we are against.

The US allows about 50,000 legal Mexican workers in the US. We have over 10 MILLION illegals in the US...mostly from central America. Do the math. The US has the jobs. Business wants the workers. Only the knuckle dragging PaleoCons who fear they will be excluded from their life long career in toilet cleaning are stoping Dubya from giving "illegal" workers with long histories of paying Social Security the chance to continue paying taxes.

22 posted on 08/18/2004 10:21:50 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: NormsRevenge
Still, Luis said, there is no going back. In Ecuador, he and his wife were so desperate for work to support their children that they left them behind and walked much of the way to the United States.

FReepers, illegal immigration tears our nation apart, and tears illgal aliens families and marriages apart. No good comes from bad actions. Sooner or later they will need to get their home countries under control, (same as we do) and the sooner they begin - the better. For us; ditto.

23 posted on 08/18/2004 10:22:17 PM PDT by Libertina (Kerry: Unreliable in Vietnam, unfit for the White House.)
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To: All
Sigh. Where to begin?

Ms. Stock, who is also a lieutenant colonel in the military police of the Army Reserves, said there was a better chance of tracking a terrorist with a driver's license than one without.

So, naturally, terroists won't bother getting a license, like they didn't bother to learn how to land an aircraft.

Yet thousands of illegal immigrants denied driver's licenses will continue to drive, she said, and probably add to the number of hit-and-run accidents and uninsured drivers already on the road.

Has anyone actually proven this? Illegals with licenses won't hit and run but those without licenses will?

24 posted on 08/18/2004 10:22:45 PM PDT by skip_intro
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To: asmith92008
They can get insurance in Mexico. That's just a BS excuse.

I agree. They can also get driver's licenses in Mexico.

25 posted on 08/18/2004 10:28:14 PM PDT by judgeandjury
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To: asmith92008
You are a criminal.

But Gloria, a Colombian woman who has lived in Queens since 1991, said she had not driven since the January day when her license was confiscated at the Whitestone motor vehicle office. She had been a licensed driver for 11 years, she said, selling Mary Kay cosmetics from her car to help support her daughter, an American citizen by birth, while working weekends as a baby-sitter for a family of lawyers living on Sutton Place in Manhattan.

"I feel humiliated because I think there's no reason to take it from me," she said. "I was a good driver; I never got a ticket for a red light or passed a stop sign. I always had insurance."

Death is too good for this criminal!!!

...and that is really the saddest thing about PaleoCons. They think the people who clean their toilets and pick their food are less than human when it is really the PaleoCons who have no human feelings for others. So guided by ideology they forgot how to feel.

I will not pray for you.

26 posted on 08/18/2004 10:29:29 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
Only the knuckle dragging PaleoCons who fear they will be excluded from their life long career in toilet cleaning

So your real objective is to condemn these people to a lifetime of toilet cleaning? Or are you implying that these illegals will remain toilet cleaners if Bush would just grant them amnesty?

27 posted on 08/18/2004 10:30:28 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Designate - Infiltrate - Annihilate // Read my lips: More new taxes - John Kerry)
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To: VeniVidiVici
So your real objective is to condemn these people to a lifetime of toilet cleaning?

Way to twist my words. I don't look down on people who do hard work for little pay.

28 posted on 08/18/2004 10:32:16 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler

I didn't twist your words. That's what you said.

Basically, if these people remain illegals, toilets is about the best they can do. If they get amnesty, then they move up the economic ladder - albeit by ruining the chances of more deserving immigrants from across the globe.

Which means that these so-called "PaleoCons" may have an argument, correct?


29 posted on 08/18/2004 10:38:24 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Designate - Infiltrate - Annihilate // Read my lips: More new taxes - John Kerry)
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To: Once-Ler
Only the knuckle dragging PaleoCons who fear they will be excluded from their life long career in toilet cleaning are stoping Dubya from giving "illegal" workers with long histories of paying Social Security the chance to continue paying taxes.

Illegal aliens are working in many different fields of employment besides toilet cleaning. The majority of Americans don't believe in rewarding people who have violated our immigration laws. There are millions of foreigners around the world who are patiently waiting for their turn to legally immigrate to the United States. These are the people who should be rewarded with a green card, not the illegal aliens who have no respect for our laws.

30 posted on 08/18/2004 10:39:33 PM PDT by judgeandjury
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To: Once-Ler
I never said that she should die. She should simply go to her own country instead of breaking the laws of our nation.

If I had my driver's license taken after stealing your car or some other crime, I doubt you would be so sympathetic. Why is it that some "conservatives" view illegally entering our country as a joke? Or whatever crimes would you wink at sine you have not forgotten how to feel?

I am proud to be a paleo-con in the Teddy Roosevelt tradition, when conservatism meant something other than being a puppet for business interests even at the expense of the national interest.
31 posted on 08/18/2004 10:41:27 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: Once-Ler

I don’t care if Regan did say it, he is wrong, The United States the result of English Colonization. You could say that we were started by immigrants, but we are not a county of immigrants, and have not been since approximately 1780. Did you not notice that the Constitution says that you have to be born here to be President? 90% of the people here were born here. We are a sovereign nation being INVADED by immigrants, to say other wise is liberal communist propaganda.


32 posted on 08/18/2004 10:51:03 PM PDT by Exton1
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To: VeniVidiVici
Basically, if these people remain illegals, toilets is about the best they can do.

They seem perfectly willing to accept low paying jobs. Do you fear a non-English speaking immigrant will take your job? If so I feel sad for you.

I think you're upset because I quoted Reagan and Reagan said the one issue illegal immigrant hating troglodytes are wrong. He gave amnesty to 6 million hard working illegals and didn't do anything to protect the losers who lost their jobs to uncultivated, unskilled, non-English speaking refuges from a 3rd world. Those losers are pathetic and only good for baking macaroni casseroles to pass around at the Constimatushunalist Party convention

33 posted on 08/18/2004 10:51:16 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler

Reagan also signed a quite liberal abortion bill in California that he later deeply regretted. He was a man and could be wrong. Quoting any politician like scripture makes you seem like the macaroni baking loser.


34 posted on 08/18/2004 10:58:29 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: Exton1
You could say that we were started by immigrants, but we are not a county of immigrants, and have not been since approximately 1780.

You know nothing of history. The Chinese built the railroad in the mid 1800's. Africans built much of the South. Texas and California were owned by Mexico until the mid 1800s.

For the first 100-125 years of America we had no INS or border security. Anyone who wanted to come here and get a job was welcome. About 100 years ago, in the middle of a global Great Depression, people like yourself became paranoid about the Chinese over running America and demanded limitations. Since that time the INS has regulated immigration. Not on the basis of need for workers, but which ethnic group we like the least.

35 posted on 08/18/2004 10:59:56 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
Way to twist my words. I don't look down on people who do hard work for little pay.

However, you do look down and have contempt on those who spend years attempting to follow the law and get into this country legally. Every day tens of thousands of individuals are turned downed at American consulates around the world when they apply for an immigrants visa. They spend years waiting, and doing so legally. I know, I have a Russian wife who cries at night waiting for her daughter and grandsons right to immigrate. I know how she felt after waiting all day outside of our Moscow consulate attempting to secure a student visa. She saw over 500 people come out crying because of visa denials that day. My wife and I continue waiting while you cry crocodile tears for those who break our laws. I served six years on a Special Forces A-Team during Nam fighting for what is right, but you keep telling us about how illegals are treated harshly. Forgive me if I have contempt for your feelings.
36 posted on 08/18/2004 11:00:57 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: asmith92008
Reagan also signed a quite liberal abortion bill in California that he later deeply regretted.

Reagan never disassociated himself from his stance on immigration.

He was a man and could be wrong.

Sometimes he was right.

37 posted on 08/18/2004 11:01:52 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: asmith92008
If I had my driver's license taken after stealing your car or some other crime, I doubt you would be so sympathetic.

She didn't steal a car. She worked for a living and supported her mother and daughter you ****. Learn to read.

38 posted on 08/18/2004 11:04:24 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
For the first 100-125 years of America we had no INS or border security

We also had no welfare state magnet and no social services. There was no incentive to remain here if there was no work, and there was no tax burden on the general population to support the families of immigrants.

39 posted on 08/18/2004 11:10:54 PM PDT by skip_intro
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To: Once-Ler
She didn't steal a car. She worked for a living and supported her mother and daughter you ****. Learn to read.

You are the one who needs to learn how to read. He specifically said, "or some other crime." She stole a right which belonged to either a citizen or a legal immigrant.
40 posted on 08/18/2004 11:11:23 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: asmith92008
I am proud to be a paleo-con in the Teddy Roosevelt tradition,

You mean "National parks" environmentalist Teddy, anti business Teddy, USDA government regulation Teddy, Let's elect 'rat Wilson Teddy, or invade sovereign nations Teddy? Pfffttt! You know nothing of history either.

41 posted on 08/18/2004 11:18:31 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: skip_intro
We also had no welfare state magnet and no social services. There was no incentive to remain here if there was no work, and there was no tax burden on the general population to support the families of immigrants.

I guess the "conservatives" at FR accept the welfare state and the tax burden...it's just the recipient who don't "deserve it" that bothers them, huh? Nobody deserves to get money, or health care, for no work. Instead of fighting the problem you fight the straw dog. Pathetic.

42 posted on 08/18/2004 11:25:25 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: GarySpFc
She stole a right which belonged to either a citizen or a legal immigrant.

Who did she steal the right to drive from smart guy?

43 posted on 08/18/2004 11:26:53 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
I guess the "conservatives" at FR accept the welfare state and the tax burden...

Speak for yourself, pal.

44 posted on 08/18/2004 11:30:42 PM PDT by skip_intro
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To: Once-Ler
Who did she steal the right to drive from smart guy?

Did I say anything about stealing the right to drive? Learn to read. The illegal immigrant is stealing the rights of citizens, legal immigrants, and legally intended immigrants. Anytime you give benefits to those breaking the law you are stealing from those who keep the law.
45 posted on 08/18/2004 11:35:16 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: skip_intro
Speak for yourself, pal.

I do speak for myself. My posts have been clear of thought and meaning. I have nuked every argument offered and I find the PaleoCon's intellectual abilities lacking. I feel like I'm arguing with children, retards, and lunatics. I will never convince them that "Liberty is not America’s gift to the world, it is God’s gift to each and every person," but I thank God that he gave us President George W Bush.

46 posted on 08/18/2004 11:37:18 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
"Those losers are pathetic and only good for baking macaroni casseroles to pass around at the Constimatushunalist Party convention."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We affirm the integrity of the international borders of the United States and the Constitutional authority and duty of the federal government to guard and to protect those borders, including the regulation of the numbers and of the qualifications of immigrants into the country.

Each year approximately one million legal immigrants and almost as many illegal aliens enter the United States. These immigrants - including illegal aliens - have been made eligible for various kinds of public assistance, including housing, education, Social Security, and legal services. This unconstitutional drain on the federal Treasury is having a severe and adverse impact on our economy, increasing the cost of government at federal, state, and local levels, adding to the tax burden, and stressing the fabric of society. The mass importation of people with low standards of living threatens the wage structure of the American worker and the labor balance in our country.

We oppose the abuse of the H-1B and L-1 visa provisions of the immigration act which are displacing American workers with foreign.

We favor a moratorium on immigration to the United States, except in extreme hardship cases or in other individual special circumstances, until the availability of all federal subsidies and assistance be discontinued, and proper security procedures have been instituted to protect against terrorist infiltration.

We also insist that every individual group and/or private agency which requests the admission of an immigrant to the U.S., on whatever basis, be required to commit legally to provide housing and sustenance for such immigrants, bear full responsibility for the economic independence of the immigrants, and post appropriate bonds to seal such covenants.

We demand that the federal government restore immigration policies based on the practice that potential immigrants will be disqualified from admission to the U.S. if, on the grounds of health, criminality, morals, or financial dependence, they would impose an improper burden on the United States, any state, or any citizen of the United States.

We oppose the provision of welfare subsidies and other taxpayer-supported benefits to illegal aliens, and reject the practice of bestowing U.S. citizenship on children born to illegal alien parents while in this country.

We oppose any extension of amnesty to illegal aliens. We call for the use of U.S. troops to protect the states against invasion.

We oppose bilingual ballots. We insist that those who wish to take part in the electoral process and governance of this nation be required to read and comprehend basic English as a precondition of citizenship. We support English as the official language for all governmental business by the United States."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the "Constimatushunalist" Party's only sin is shaming the larger ones.

Someone pass the casserole.

47 posted on 08/18/2004 11:40:53 PM PDT by NewRomeTacitus (http://www.numbersusa.com makes a difference!)
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To: GarySpFc
The illegal immigrant is stealing the rights of citizens, legal immigrants, and legally intended immigrants.

You can't back that up with fact. The number of legal immigrants is static. It doesn't change if their are 1 million illegals entering the US or zero. Try again genius.

48 posted on 08/18/2004 11:41:16 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
I do speak for myself. My posts have been clear of thought and meaning

They're nothing of the kind. You accuse others of making statements they didn't make and attack them personally because they disagree with you.

You're Michael Savage's alter ego.

49 posted on 08/18/2004 11:42:05 PM PDT by skip_intro
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To: Once-Ler
But Gloria, a Colombian woman who has lived in Queens since 1991, said she had not driven since the January day when her license was confiscated at the Whitestone motor vehicle office.

Cry me a river --- there are buses these people can take or they can ride bikes. They chose to come here illegally because waiting in line with those who choose to come here legally was just too much to ask. They don't want to fix up their own countries and we can't have the entire world move to the USA.

There is a legal process, there are millions of people who want to come here so there is a long long line. These people are actually arrogant and believe they should be rewarded for breaking the law and given preference over those who patiently obey the law.

50 posted on 08/18/2004 11:45:31 PM PDT by FITZ
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