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Immigrants Face Loss of Licenses in ID Crackdown
NY Times ^ | 8/18/04 | Nina Bernstein

Posted on 08/18/2004 9:20:22 PM PDT by NormsRevenge

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To: Little Ray
If we have some many jobs going unfilled why are still people on welfare?

Some people are unwilling to work and others are functionally incapable of responsible behavior. Sometime it's a little a both. Socrates said "know thyself," and although you may not yet know what to do with the information I have given you, I do hope this leads you on the path to self awareness.

151 posted on 08/20/2004 10:02:39 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Better and better -- a semi-Canadian cheese-head with no personal knowledge of life along the Mexican border.

You suck

152 posted on 08/20/2004 10:07:51 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: jmc813
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're caling Reagan a leftist, aren't you?

Your wrong.

153 posted on 08/20/2004 10:09:21 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Mamzelle
Mow your own *&^ lawn. And tell your ole lady to swab her own *&^ toilet.

No.

154 posted on 08/20/2004 10:11:25 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: GarySpFc
You amaze me. You are all for providing government services to illegals at taxpayer expense, but balk at providing services to citizens. At heart you are anti-American.

You amaze me. I said nothing of the sort. I decry all Government handouts. It is you and the rest of the Paleos who keep whining about the illegals getting all you gubmint handouts. At heart you are a fool.

Now listen to the sound of me laughing at you.

LOL

155 posted on 08/20/2004 10:14:53 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
Your wrong.

I'm also pretty damned good looking.

156 posted on 08/20/2004 10:42:53 PM PDT by jmc813 (CAN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIM;ARE YOU A VIRGIN?)
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To: neverdem
I believe you made an earlier comment to someone else a request, in effect, for some references.

I don't believe I did. The polls about illegal immigration are not worth the trouble to read. I can see the truth with my own eyes and I can discern the truth through critical analysis of the things I know and read.

Politicians are in the business of doing what their constituency wants them to do. If they fail to understand and do what the people want, then the people vote them out of office. Both parties are for increasing immigration and some form of amnesty. Therefore both parties think their position will win more votes than it will lose.

Polls tell us that people are against violence and sex on TV yet the ratings show that not to be the case.

When you ask someone a question in a poll, they will often give an answer that they think is appropriate. The fact is the opposition to illegal immigration is a mile wide and an inch deep. The American people will say something should be done about illegal immigration...but they ain't taking the time out of their busy schedules to write or phone a congressman.

Most Americans don't know the current levels of immigration, so if they say it should be lower what does that mean? Most Americans don't even think about the issue. ask a guy for a lot of money and he will say $100. Tell him you will give him a lot of money and he will be thinking $1000. Say a million or a billion or a trillion and their eyes glaze over. It is too difficult for most people to work with numbers like that.

Thanx for the links. I read that one already. I'm not going to refute McDonald point for point. If you have one or two points and you want me to explain why they are wrong I will do so, but please don't post a link to an article you obviously didn't spend anytime thinking about

Any critical thinker would read the first sentence and decide the author had an agenda and few fact to back the agenda up.

Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens.

This is true but so is...

Some of the most violent criminals at large today are native born Americans.
Some of the most violent criminals at large today are white.
Some of the most violent criminals at large today are black.
Some of the most violent criminals at large today are people with birthdays in the last 3 months of the year.
Some of the most violent criminals at large today are people who drive Ford trucks .
Some of the most violent criminals at large today are people who hate Mexicans.

I just hope there are no violent criminals posting right fringe xenophobia at FR.

157 posted on 08/20/2004 11:04:25 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: jmc813
I'm also pretty damned good looking.

So I've heard, but I don't swing that way Jeff...
OK, there was that one time...
But I really needed the money.

I'm Kidding!!!!

I didn't need the money.

158 posted on 08/20/2004 11:07:17 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler

Nine out of the last 12 posts are MINE...That has got to be some kind of record. What do I win?


159 posted on 08/20/2004 11:09:45 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler

What does your screename meam? It's fun to say your FReeper name out lousd. Once-Ler. It's all cool.


160 posted on 08/20/2004 11:13:51 PM PDT by jmc813 (CAN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIM;ARE YOU A VIRGIN?)
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To: Once-Ler
You suck

Yeah, I've heard that one before. However, you're the one swallowing. Can I call you Monica?

By the way, I think you belong back in Oz. Reality really doesn't suit you at all.

161 posted on 08/20/2004 11:27:43 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder (Proud to be a mean-spirited and divisive loco gringo armed vigilante terrorist cucaracha!)
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To: Once-Ler
The polls about illegal immigration are not worth the trouble to read. I can see the truth with my own eyes and I can discern the truth through critical analysis of the things I know and read.

That critical analysis went out the door on Sep 11, 2001.

I'm not going to refute McDonald point for point. If you have one or two points and you want me to explain why they are wrong I will do so, but please don't post a link to an article you obviously didn't spend anytime thinking about

Little ole me, why I just couldn't comprehend the incredible insights of such a critical thinker like you. You haven't made one comment that wasn't drooling with condescension. They have been filled with your unwarranted opinion of yourself, your uninformed opinions, or derogatory comments about others on this thread. Adios

162 posted on 08/20/2004 11:40:02 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: jmc813
What does your screename meam? It's fun to say your FReeper name out lousd. Once-Ler. It's all cool.

Thank you for a hearty laugh, and I'm not laughing AT you.

Once-Ler is a character from the Dr. Seuss story "The Lorax." It is a hysterical anti-business enviro-wacko story and the Once-Ler cuts down all the trees and destroys the lakes and wildlife only to find he has no resources to continue his business. I picked the name because my daughter loves Dr Seuss and it fits in with the MSM image of "Evil Republicans."

I'm the black sheep of my union 'rat family. When I worked for the Republican Party I had to tell them I was a piano player in a whore house or risk alienation. I also haven't told them I'm a Chicago Bears fan. I've been told Republicans are evil all my life, and I think Dubya is a good and God fearing man. Don't let my comments about PaleoCons fool you. PaleoCons are not Republicans...they vote for Buchanan and Keyes and even 'rats if the Republican supports abortion, gun restriction, free trade, separation of church and state, integration, flame retardant crosses, R rated films, or the Pope.

I am against abortion, but I don't list abortion doctors on a internet hit list. I'm for the 2nd amendment, but I don't support taxpayer subsidized bazookas. I'm not an extremist for any cause except Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Good to meet you.

163 posted on 08/21/2004 12:06:00 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
I also haven't told them I'm a Chicago Bears fan.

Bears suck. Jets rule. That's all I have to say aboutnn that. I bidm you a good evening.

164 posted on 08/21/2004 12:09:52 AM PDT by jmc813 (CAN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIM;ARE YOU A VIRGIN?)
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To: neverdem
You haven't made one comment that wasn't drooling with condescension.

Well at least I haven't lied about my opinion of you.

They have been filled with your unwarranted opinion of yourself, your uninformed opinions, or derogatory comments about others on this thread. Adios

You gonna take your ball and go home? It's about time. You're losing the argument, BIG TIME.

165 posted on 08/21/2004 12:09:55 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
However, you're the one swallowing. Can I call you Monica?

You Suck

166 posted on 08/21/2004 12:10:52 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
You Suck

He sucks. But the Bears swallow.

167 posted on 08/21/2004 12:12:14 AM PDT by jmc813 (CAN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIM;ARE YOU A VIRGIN?)
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To: Once-Ler

When I worked for the Republican Party I had to tell (my family) I was a piano player in a whore house or risk alienation.


168 posted on 08/21/2004 12:12:32 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
I believe the vast majority of illegals come to America to find a better life for their families. I believe the current quota limitations on immigration leave these people little choice but to cross the border without permission.

It doesn't matter why illegal aliens are coming to America. They are still violating our immigration laws by not coming here through legal channels, or by overstaying their visas. Every foreigner who wants to come to America has the same choice to make: do it legally or do it illegally. Nobody is forced to violate our immigration laws. It is always a personal decision to do so.

169 posted on 08/21/2004 12:19:16 AM PDT by usadave
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To: jmc813
He sucks.

I'm glad we agree.

I had 2 ticket to a Jets game last year. I drove into to the city and you know how difficult it is to find a parking space. I parked my car in one of those big parking lots, but I left the tickets on the front dashboard...big mistake. I came out to the car the next day and some asshole smashed my front window...

and left 2 more tickets to the game.
weird!

170 posted on 08/21/2004 12:23:56 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: usadave
It doesn't matter why illegal aliens are coming to America. They are still violating our immigration laws by not coming here through legal channels, or by overstaying their visas. Every foreigner who wants to come to America has the same choice to make: do it legally or do it illegally. Nobody is forced to violate our immigration laws. It is always a personal decision to do so.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote usadave. They are violating out immigration laws. It is against the law, and it is a personal decision. I will only add I sympathise with their decision, I think our immigration quotas are too low, and I welcome them to America.

171 posted on 08/21/2004 12:28:42 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler

I thought you would learn from experience.

You say you want others to partake of freedom in this country. Oh great critical thinker, if you appreciate freedom so much, please show me an example in the history of democracy where more people hasn't led to more laws and less freedom.

Ad hominem attacks will receive no further replies. BTW, why stop at one billion, why not two, three or infinity? I guess there's no such thing as physical carrying capacity. How stupid of me. There, one less insult you need to make.


172 posted on 08/21/2004 12:33:23 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Once-Ler
PaleoCons are not Republicans...they vote for Buchanan and Keyes and even 'rats if the Republican supports abortion, gun restriction, free trade, separation of church and state, integration, flame retardant crosses, R rated films, or the Pope.

Well, that explains it. You are a liberal (pro-abortion, pro-gun control, ACLU-type); who assumes that all Conservatives are racist, evangelical, anti-Catholics; but you like your OWN slave labor and the stock market. Got it. The Republican party needs its own excommunication process to rid itself of your type.

173 posted on 08/21/2004 12:41:57 AM PDT by garandgal (Lord; please let our country survive the "worthless generation.")
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To: neverdem
critical analysis went out the door on Sep 11, 2001

No doubt about that among Paleo's, but I really didn't expect that kind of honesty. It's nice to see that people like you are finally being honest about the Mexicans. Go on with your bad self camouflage paintball master.

Republicans believe in self reliance. I am a Republican and I welcome Latino competition for unskilled jobs. It lowers the cost of production and makes the products I purchase cheaper. I will not lose my job to an uneducated worker from Mexico Canada or anywhere. I feel contempt for any American who is born with the advantages of America and feels they cannot compete with people who can't even speak English. Pathetic.

174 posted on 08/21/2004 12:48:38 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: neverdem
critical analysis went out the door on Sep 11, 2001

No doubt about that among Paleo's, but I really didn't expect that kind of honesty. It's nice to see that people like you are finally being honest about the Mexicans. Go on with your bad self camouflage paintball master.

Republicans believe in self reliance. I am a Republican and I welcome Latino competition for unskilled jobs. It lowers the cost of production and makes the products I purchase cheaper. I will not lose my job to an uneducated worker from Mexico Canada or anywhere. I feel contempt for any American who is born with the advantages of America and feels they cannot compete with people who can't even speak English. Pathetic.

175 posted on 08/21/2004 12:48:38 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: garandgal
You are a liberal (pro-abortion, pro-gun control, ACLU-type); who assumes that all Conservatives are racist, evangelical, anti-Catholics

I said I was against abortion but not for killing abortion doctors. I said I was for the 2nd Amendment but not pro-bazooka. You can't read, and you can't think. I didn't say Conservatives are racist...I'm a Conservative...I said PaleoCons are racist...I was talking about people like you.

The Republican party needs its own excommunication process to rid itself of your type.

You're not a Republican. Dubya is a Republican, McCain is a Republican, Guillini is a Republican. You are a imperial wizzard/klegal/garand...whatever you call yourself.

176 posted on 08/21/2004 1:14:55 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler

Pardon me. I should have written "your critical analysis went out the door on Sep 11, 2001".
I, personally, have no fear from unskilled or the highest skilled competition. My life expectancy is but a few more decades.

RINOs, the likes of which you seem to espouse, will hasten the end of this democratic republic, just like Athens and Rome IMHO.

You ignored my comments on physical carrying capacity with respect to what population this country should be able to bear, the argument of the social cost of open borders, the argument that more people cause more laws and less freedom, the security threat from open borders, etc.

The best you can offer is such critical analysis to others as "you suck", or you're a Paleocon.

I'm a conservative with strong libertarian sympathies. I'm also a white devil. My wife isn't and wasn't born in this country.


177 posted on 08/21/2004 1:33:14 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Once-Ler
I said I was against abortion but not for killing abortion doctors. I said I was for the 2nd Amendment but not pro-bazooka. You can't read, and you can't think. I didn't say Conservatives are racist...I'm a Conservative...I said PaleoCons are racist...I was talking about people like you.

No, this is what you ACTUALLY said:

PaleoCons are not Republicans...they vote for Buchanan and Keyes and even 'rats if the Republican supports abortion, gun restriction, free trade, separation of church and state, integration, flame retardant crosses, R rated films, or the Pope

You are wrong on facts, and can't debate without falsely labeling your enemies...like a three-year-old (or come to think of it, a liberal). Your pettiness, and name-calling casts a very bad light on this forum...and probably has those at DU cheering. Keep it up....really.

178 posted on 08/21/2004 1:35:09 AM PDT by garandgal (Lord; please let our country survive the "worthless generation.")
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To: Once-Ler
Dubya is a Republican, McCain is a Republican, Guillini is a Republican.

So is Pataki. Which of the afformentioned pols believes in limited government? With pubbies of that type in New York, that's why I am registered Conservative.

179 posted on 08/21/2004 1:45:47 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Once-Ler
Patriotism takes only one generation and often times less.

I'll agree with that statement if there is a reasonable filtering process to separate the wheat from the chaff. I don't know how much you've seen of illegal immigration and illegal immigrants, but I've seen plenty. Mrs. Vigilanteman, you see, is from southern California and I lived there awhile myself. The sad truth of the matter is that for every immigrant such as my friend Richardo, there are at least 10 which have nothing more in mind than exploiting the system. Ricardo was born in the U.S., his family came here illegally in the late 1950's when there was still a trickle, not a flood. They worked, they earned citizenship, they encouraged their children to become Americanized and they set the example where possible. Ricardo understands, but doesn't speak much Spanish. His mother became the manager of a department store where my wife worked and spoke with only a hint of an accent.

While I agree with your statement that legal immigration should be easier (and I think of people like Ricardo's family), it cannot be done without cracking down on illegal immigratation. I've spent half my adult life living in Japan and know more than a few legal immigrants who feel like chumps because they took the time and trouble to come here legally only to find so many people like you and like our government, make little or no effort to distinguish between the legal and illegal variety.

Unlike some of the paleos, I also feel that military service (demonstrated loyalty to the U.S.) should be a path to legal citizenship but for the immediate family-- spouse and minor children-- not for multi-generations of shirt-tail relatives. In today's world of relatively cheap air travel (and cheaper travel to Mexico), family reunification should not be used as a catch-all reason to jump the politically-protected to the front of the line. Our idiotic immigration policy needs to pick and choose among would-be immigrants who will contribute to the fabric of this nation and not just those who will milk it. A sensible debate is needed somewhere between the point of "zero" and "open borders." Switzerland (with a 20% foreign workforce) and Singapore (with a more stringent policy) both have multi-ethnic societies and a sensible immigration policy. We do not and, by failing to do so, risk further Balkanization.

180 posted on 08/21/2004 2:53:08 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Once-Ler
So you are willing to pay for the services provided by an illegal. There is one word which describes you...criminal, which is clearly un-American.
181 posted on 08/21/2004 5:01:49 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: GarySpFc
So you are willing to pay for the services provided by an illegal. There is one word which describes you...criminal, which is clearly un-American.

You've got a pretty low standard for what constitutes a criminal...Where did you learn to walk on water?

182 posted on 08/21/2004 11:21:20 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: garandgal
You are wrong on facts, and can't debate without falsely labeling your enemies...

If you go back up the thread a mear 20 posts earlier you will find your post of 173.

Well, that explains it. You are a liberal (pro-abortion, pro-gun control, ACLU-type); who assumes that all Conservatives are racist, evangelical, anti-Catholics; but you like your OWN slave labor and the stock market. Got it.

It's ok for you to call names but I should be grownup about it. Bite Me.

183 posted on 08/21/2004 11:32:26 AM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Vigilanteman
A sensible debate is needed somewhere between the point of "zero" and "open borders."

I agree. I'm sure I will fall closer to the open border side than most Republicans.

There is another debate that has not gotten much attention on this thread and that is how do we find and deport 10 million illegan immigrants and secure the border. I don't believe America has the technology and the resources to do this at this time. The actual cost of removing 10 million illegals and the damage to our economy, would far outweigh any savings in government spending. If every illegal was gone tomorrow the school systems would still be a liberal indoctrination center, Health-care would still be sky high and Social Security would be bankrupt since fewer workers would be paying for the elderly (the richest segment of our society) to retire.

The Bush administration has been trying to tackle this problem with a combination of more "search and deport," trying to get more illegals into the sytem by easing restrictions and raising the number of work visas, and helping Mexico stabilize it's economy with free trade. This is the approach I would take.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/immigration/20020105thm.html

President George W Bush: Right. A couple of things. First, short-term, is to make sure that the INS functions; that the INS is able to expedite the paperwork for people who are legitimately here in the country, and expedite the paperwork necessary for families to reunite. If you believe in family values, you've got to have families together, it seems like to me. And yet, we're too bureaucratic when it comes to the INS, and we need to streamline it and make it work. (Applause.)

Secondly, we've got to understand that in the past, at least, there have been people who were trying to hire people and people willing to work. And it makes sense to me to have a system that matches willing employer with willing employee.

Thirdly, the long-term solution is for Mexico to grow a middle class so that people don't feel like they have to come here to work. (Applause.) The long-term solution -- family values don't stop at the Rio Bravo. If there's somebody who has got children to feed, somebody, a mom or a dad who has got little ones to take care of, and they make fifty cents in a state in Mexico, or they could make $5 in America, they're going to come to America if they believe in their children, if they have the same values you and I have.

Values don't stop. And so, therefore, it seems like to me the best thing we can do is to have a strong relationship with Mexico, a free trading relationship with Mexico so that Mexico is more likely to grow a middle class, which means that person who is willing to walk miles across Texas desert to work to feed her children will be able to find work close to home.

That's why I said one of the most important foreign policy relations we have is with Mexico. The stronger Mexico is, the less pressure on our border; the stronger Mexico is, the more prosperity there will be in both our countries.

Thank you for a well written and thoughtful reply.

184 posted on 08/21/2004 12:20:21 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Vigilanteman
I don't know how much you've seen of illegal immigration and illegal immigrants, but I've seen plenty.

I've seen a lot and from what I've seen they work hard, they are afraid to use hospitals or police for fear of being discovered and sent back. They pay taxes when they work and buy things. They have families and friends and they pray to God.

Like any people they have some bad elements. Some say a higher percent of illegals are involved with violent crime and drugs. This may be so but I find that to be a poor argument for condemning the other 9.5 million (or what ever the number is) whose only crime is crossing the border.

The sad truth of the matter is that for every immigrant such as my friend Richardo, there are at least 10 which have nothing more in mind than exploiting the system.

The system should not be exploited by illegals or citizens. If the welfare system lures illegals to the US...let us fix the welfare system instead of figuring out a way to put a barrier around the land of the free. Let's say we remove all 10 Million illegals tomorrow...we are ignoring the much greater costs of citizens using these same support systems.

I'm very sad to say it but, most people sucking at the teat of government are AMERICANS who get SS, unemployment, welfare, Medicare/Medicaid, grants, government home and business loans at ridiculous rates etcetera etcetera ad nuseum. I don’t want to argue the relative advantages or disadvantages of these programs. I’m just making a point. Pedro can’t speak English he isn’t asking for a government bailout of Chrysler.

The root problems America faces are not caused by illegal immigrants. Allowing immigrants to receive the same socialistic welfare traps that American citizens receive only exacerbates the symptoms of the socialism.

185 posted on 08/21/2004 12:41:58 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
You've got a pretty low standard for what constitutes a criminal...Where did you learn to walk on water?

The standard I am referring to is the law of the United States. It is illegal and a punishable offense to hire an illegal alien. That;s why the label criminal applies.
186 posted on 08/21/2004 12:56:26 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
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To: neverdem
You say you want others to partake of freedom in this country. Oh great critical thinker, if you appreciate freedom so much, please show me an example in the history of democracy where more people hasn't led to more laws and less freedom.

I'm so happy I can give you a lesson in history. America had fewer citizens 10 years before the slave were freed. America had fewer citizens 10 years before women were allowed to vote. America had fewer citizens 10 years before the draft was eliminated. Let me know if any of the logic is escaping you and I will elaborate.

BTW, why stop at one billion, why not two, three or infinity?

One billion was an educated guess based on my knowledge of undeveloped land and America's resources and infrastructure. I think 2 billion would be too many and infinity is just damn stupid. I could turn it around and say if 280 billion people in the US is too many why not just limit it to neverdem, but that would be crazy.

187 posted on 08/21/2004 1:37:10 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: GarySpFc
The standard I am referring to is the law of the United States. It is illegal and a punishable offense to hire an illegal alien. That;s why the label criminal applies.

It is illegal to drive without a buckled seatbelt. There are crimes and there are infractions. If I forget to buckle my seatbelt am I also Un-American. Please indulge me with your black and white wisdom.

188 posted on 08/21/2004 1:43:51 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
America had fewer citizens 10 years before the slave were freed. America had fewer citizens 10 years before women were allowed to vote.

No one would argue that slavery was a good thing, or that women should not have the right to vote. However good the elimination of those previous wrongs were, they have enabled populists and socialists to enact their agenda as well as promote reverse discrimination.

America had fewer citizens 10 years before the draft was eliminated.

Eliminating the draft was politically expedient. I doubt that the eventual benefit for the military was more than a remote consideration. They probably expected a lower overall level of intelligence in recruits, and initially that's what happened. If I remember correctly they lowered the standards for enlistment in the Armed Forces in the remainder of the 1970s.

If you don't believe as a general proposition that more laws restrict freedom, there isn't any purpose in continuing this discussion.

189 posted on 08/21/2004 2:48:43 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Once-Ler
I said I was for the 2nd Amendment but not pro-bazooka.

What the hell is wrong with bazookas?

190 posted on 08/21/2004 3:34:16 PM PDT by jmc813 (CAN YOU MAKE THE SAME CLAIM;ARE YOU A VIRGIN?)
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To: neverdem
If you don't believe as a general proposition that more laws restrict freedom, there isn't any purpose in continuing this discussion.

That isn't what you said. You asked "please show me an example in the history of democracy where more people hasn't led to more laws and less freedom." I showed you 3 examples where more population equaled more freedom. If you can't recall your own words, there isn't any purpose in continuing this discussion.

191 posted on 08/21/2004 4:45:10 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: jmc813
What the hell is wrong with bazookas?

The comic strips are not funny.

192 posted on 08/21/2004 4:49:11 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
I showed you 3 examples where more population equaled more freedom. If you can't recall your own words, there isn't any purpose in continuing this discussion.

Congratulations, you've found the great exceptions to the historical trend of more people generating more law and less freedom. There's a saying in medicine, "when you hear the sound of hoofbeats, don't think zebras". You've found the historical zebras.

193 posted on 08/21/2004 5:33:43 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
I showed you 3 examples where more population equaled more freedom. If you can't recall your own words, there isn't any purpose in continuing this discussion.

What? I gotta give you a list of all the ways your assertion can be proved wrong? People today have more freedom than they had 50, 100, 200, or 1000 years ago.

Sure 100 years ago children were allowed to work in factories, fathers were allowed to beat and molest their children without reprisal, and blacks were allowed to swing in trees...but most people don't apperciate those freedoms as much as the ones we enjoy today. Today people enjoy the reliogous, social, and economic freedom to travel almost anywhere in the world, read books online that were banned 50 years ago, and not be burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft.

I can think of a lot more freedoms that mandkind has secured for himself over the years. Could you please now give me some example of freedom that has been lost?

194 posted on 08/21/2004 6:56:59 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
Could you please now give me some example of freedom that has been lost?

For someone that's been registered on this forum for almost five years, that's quite a statement. Virtually everything government does, other than when legislatures pass meaningless resolutions, infringes on someone's freedom from its power to issue and charge for licences, zoning laws, banning smoking in outdoor stadiums and bars, the hopeless war on drugs, alcohol's former prohibition, laws against gambling(but lotteries are OK), hate crimes, gun control, etc. I could go on and on.

Apparently, you don't believe in limited government. If a majority can be persuaded, then anything goes, no matter the true merits of the situation, or the rights of the minority.

You can have the last word.

195 posted on 08/21/2004 8:42:30 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
charge for licences, zoning laws,

I site the right to practice religion, the right to vote, and the right to live even if you're black at you offer up zoning laws and and license fees? Are you pissed off you can't run a red light too?

banning smoking in outdoor stadiums and bars,

OK I'll give you that one.

the hopeless war on drugs,

I'm not opposed to the war on drugs, I'm sorry you can't buy crack.

alcohol's former prohibition,

Alcohol is legal. even though we have more people today than in 1920.

laws against gambling(but lotteries are OK),

Ever hear of Vegas? We got casinos in WI. what are you talking about?

hate crimes,

OK I'll give this one too.

gun control,

I can buy a gun, and in September I can buy an assualt weapon.

You really need to reevaluate your theory.

196 posted on 08/21/2004 9:25:22 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
I site the right to practice religion, the right to vote, and the right to live even if you're black at you offer up zoning laws and and license fees? Are you pissed off you can't run a red light too?

You cited as examples what a fair number of the "Founding Fathers" would consider natural rights, although the changes that brought them about were the American Revolution, the Constitution and subsequent Bill of Rights, the Civil War and subsequent Constitutional Amendments, and finally the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts of the 1960s.

As a matter of historical fact, they are not the routine actions of democratic governments. The examples I provided are typical of the incremental accretion of power by democratic governments to the detriment of individual citizens.

I can buy a gun, and in September I can buy an assualt weapon.

Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. What your calling an "assault weapon" is a misnomer, and there are many cities and states that will still forbid them. You can't own handguns in Chicago and Washington D.C. among other places, IIRC.

Police see surge in gang attacks using machetes. Some suburban communities have also enacted new laws to ban the knives.

Current events show that the vast majority of current conflicts around the globe are between different ethnic or religuous groups who feel they have legitimate grievances.

A significant number of the recent immigrants from Latin America have not chosen to follow prior waves of immigrants and become assimilated with the rest of society. Regardless of whether it's because of the relative proximty to their countries of origin, a significant number are not planning to stay and become citizens. Instead they are behaving like an exploited and aggrieved minority. For the sake of cheap labor that's OK with you.

197 posted on 08/21/2004 10:44:47 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: neverdem
As a matter of historical fact, they are not the routine actions of democratic governments. The examples I provided are typical of the incremental accretion of power by democratic governments to the detriment of individual citizens.

I see. The right to vote for non-landowners, and later blacks, and later women, and later 18-20 year olds are not as important and zoning ordinances.

Good night.

198 posted on 08/21/2004 11:56:54 PM PDT by Once-Ler (Proud Republican. and Bushbot.)
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To: Once-Ler
The right to vote for non-landowners, and later blacks, and later women, and later 18-20 year olds are not as important and zoning ordinances.

The Library of Virginia

I guess you consider a civil war and constitutional amendments routine happenstance for consitutional republics. Granting the right to vote to those 18 years of age because of being subject to a military draft was followed by raising the age to drink by 3 years in relatively short order. Your examples are notable for how extraordinary they are, not the routine behavior of democratic consitutional republics.

199 posted on 08/22/2004 1:43:38 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: Once-Ler
The right to vote for non-landowners, and later blacks, and later women, and later 18-20 year olds are not as important and zoning ordinances.

The Library of Virginia

I guess you consider a civil war and constitutional amendments routine happenstance for consitutional republics. Granting the right to vote to those 18 years of age because they were being subject to a military draft, which was followed by raising the age to drink by 3 years in relatively short order was fairly unique in the American experience. Your examples are notable for how extraordinary they are, not the routine behavior of democratic consitutional republics.

200 posted on 08/22/2004 1:58:52 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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